PAIRINGS The Pairing Thread

[Czar_Yoshi]

Yeah, he's definitely keepable. But there's also a big payoff in terms of Skl for trashing him, and every point makes a huge difference.

[Alastor15243]

So is vengeance better for female units? Since I've heard that generally you want the girl in the front as much as possible due to aggressor making boys superior to girls in back, this suggests to me that vengeance setup is generally far more effective and has a bigger payoff when a female unit has vengeance. Or am I misunderstanding the vengance strategy? Is it still as effective as luna on boys?

[Czar_Yoshi]

They're equally as good.

However since females more often have the option to procstack, seeing them running Vengeance is slightly rarer.

[Alastor15243]

They're equally as good.

However since females more often have the option to procstack, seeing them running Vengeance is slightly rarer.

Can you explain why? In my understanding vengeance generally requires the vengeance unit to end their turn in enemy range, or attack an enemy that they can kill with only the second half of their attacks being vengeance, and it seems like both of those are far more practical to pull off on a female vengeance user, since they get 2 attacks per turn as opposed to the boy's 1, and also will always be the one in front when the turn ends.

Edited October 15, 2014 by Alastor15243

[Czar_Yoshi]

In general, if you had a choice between putting Vengeance on the male or female, female would have an advantage because they spend more time up front (and have more opportunities to take damage/use Vengeance) and male would have an advantage because they lack Agg supports and it's more likely to affect their odds of getting a KO. But the same applies to Luna and all other procs.

For you though, Agg supports don't make as much of a difference due to no Braves, so you've got no reason to end with the female and thus both reasons don't apply- it's still perfectly equal.

Also, Vengeance does require you to take damage from the second half of an enemy attack to work, yes, but if you kill the enemy on the first set and thus don't get hit, well, the enemy's dead. Vengeance wouldn't have made a difference.

[burgerkong]

So, I have some ideas in mind for my pairings that are concrete/looking pretty much guaranteed for my run. I'm currently planning way in advance though, only on Chapter 21 atm ingame :P

I'll post some pairings once I'm done running calcs, but I do need help with some class suggestions & skillsets for characters like Nah (who I'm not quite sold on a parent yet, but Vaike looks good), and Gregor!Kjelle.

Out of curiosity, what are the common Forge values for optimal Braves in Apo? I assumed it was max Mt and rest in Hit, but that's looking not to be the case judging by the talk on some of the prior pages.

Also have to start learning how to calculate Hit; aside from the formula in the Calculations section, is the +15 Hit from S-rank is the only thing I need to factor in? And IIRC the threshold for this is 220?

[Ownagepuffs]

Usual forges are max hit then Mt. The more power you use, the less you need Mt.

The +15 from S rank would indeed be the only other factor aside from an aura, skill or forge that you would need to pay attention to in your calcs. Also the Avo bonuse of the terrain the enemy is standing on such as a throne.

[Czar_Yoshi]

I'll post some pairings once I'm done running calcs, but I do need help with some class suggestions & skillsets for characters like Nah (who I'm not quite sold on a parent yet, but Vaike looks good), and Gregor!Kjelle.

Out of curiosity, what are the common Forge values for optimal Braves in Apo? I assumed it was max Mt and rest in Hit, but that's looking not to be the case judging by the talk on some of the prior pages.

Also have to start learning how to calculate Hit; aside from the formula in the Calculations section, is the +15 Hit from S-rank is the only thing I need to factor in? And IIRC the threshold for this is 220?

Crash course on Nah: she can't have both GF and a proc without Avatar as her dad, and she can't have GF at all without either robbing Kjelle or Noire of it (both of them can use it better than her) or giving Avatar one of Sully/Tharja/Nowi. So, she's a female hard support.

That's a niche that's unique to her, actually, and it plays very differently than male hard support if you want it to. Nah's only really unique father is Henry (I hold her to be the best Nah, but there are others that are pretty good)- Virion, Vaike and Stahl all make good choices for her as well.

So basically, when you've got a male hard support, they've got Agg, and with Braves you get twice as many attacks in back as you get up front so it makes sense to keep Agg in the back as much as possible. But with Nah, if she stays in the back then Agg will always be up front- so in her case, it's both possible and useful to put a proc on her. Usually hard supports don't want this because they'll never be up front and it's useless, but in Nah's case she can always take the last turn, and have it be just as effective as the normal GF girls.

The other notable difference with female hard support is the Spd pairup bonus- Dark Flier is a +3 Spd class with huge distribution and the general go-to answer for this, but Nah doesn't have that. Henry!Nah is good here because Henry passes Valkyrie (which has very similar pairup boosts to DF). The Henry!Nah build I usually go for is LB/Vengeance/TF/Anathema/Wrath. With a +15 crit Celica's, Nah's crit is high enough to count as an asset, and Vengeance+Wrath is pretty potent.

Non-Henry!Nahs can still give a +Spd support through Bride- Virion and Stahl are good here for Bowfaire. Stahl in particular also offers Luna and Astra for a semi-standard set of LB/Luna/Astra/BF/Deliverer. Virion!Nah will have to make do with stat boosting skills: LB/Faire/All+2/Atk+2/Skl+2, as a Bride, Sage or Sniper. Stahl!Nah can also make a great Sniper, by the way, and she has Assassin/SF if you prefer that.

Vaike!Nah will want to go Hero or Wyvern with Axefaire, usually. Hero is nice if you want to stay in the back because it gives Sage that +3 Spd without providing an offensive boost clash (allowing Nah much more freedom in who she marries- non-Henry!Nahs often find themselves stuck with Inigo), while Wyvern is great if she manages to score a Str-heavy husband (she'll need an Assassin support, or a Berserker and All+2 to hit 69 Spd) and wants to be up front. Vaike also gives AT if you have a spare slot.

Brave forges: first make sure you hit whatever Hit threshold you're going for, then put the rest into mt.

S-rank bonus matters only to the lead unit, supports don't get it. Don't forget WRB and WT stuff either (Axes get +10, Tomes/Bows/Lances get +5, WTA gives +15, WTD gives -15 and you lose your WRB). Also don't overlook enemy terrain bonuses, your forges, or the presence of stuff like Anathema and Charm. Don't be shy throwing Hit+20 around to patch stuff up, it's a great skill. 220 is the threshold for all non-boss enemies, there are a couple you'll need a lot more than that for though.

[Ownagepuffs]

I forgot about the weapon triangle hit bonus. In Fire Emblem.

I'll just quit this series now.

Henry!Nah makes for a great aura hard support that can go either physical or magical. I've really been digging the Hexathema combo lately.

Does having Hexathema on both lead and supp units stack?

[Czar_Yoshi]

Nope, Auras never stack with themselves.

[Alastor15243]

So when not using brave weapons, am I to take this to mean that giving Nah a proc isn't important, and that she should just stay in the back?

[Czar_Yoshi]

It's not as important as it was before, but there are still a few reasons to consider it. If for any reason you want Nah to be up front when your turn ends- maybe she's got Deliverer or something- then it might be worth it. If you're using a magically attacking Nah and physically attacking husband (or vice versa) then giving Nah a proc would allow you greater versatility against PavGis.

Or you could leave it off for an extra skillslot for Auras.

[Alastor15243]

I've heard talk about Gaius!Kjelle, so that made me wonder: how big of an advantage does Gaius!Kjelle have over Donnel!Kjelle, and what's the net loss of switching them around due to how much Noire suffers?

[Czar_Yoshi]

Gaius!Kjelle gets 5/5 Spd/Skl mods, which is on par with the better Severas- and enough to be a 75 Spd Wyvern (she'll have to forgo procstac for that though, but Luna by itself is still very potent). Donnel!Noire loses out on Astra, so she'll have to choose between Vengeance and just Luna- and she's one of the only children in the game with a negative Skl mod, which isn't very impressive. She does get AT for AN outside of Apo though, so it's not all bad. She also gets Valkyrie for another magical option.

Doing Gaius!Kjelle and a non-GF Noire is also possible, and depending on your purpose for Noire could see her being more useful than with Donnel as a lackluster GF unit (especially if you've got an Avatar-F in the mix). She'll never be as good of a hard support as Nah due to lacking Tomefaire from her mother, but she has natural Sniper and Vengeance so you can still make something interesting out of her (Vaike makes a good father for her here).

Whether or not either of these is worth it is up to you, but I usually do it (I prefer one great unit and one odd one than two lackluster ones).

[Alastor15243]

I'm just about to make my staffbots, and I'm curious: why is mag+2 recommended over healtouch? It sounds like they're roughly even, but I don't even see healtouch being mentioned. Mag+2 offers 1 more range, but healtouch offers 3 more HP healed for fortify and other things. I understand that with rescue range might be preferable, but surely you'd want at least one staffbot with the highest possible healing power, right?

[MelonGx]

Donnel!Noire

She requires both Spd+2 and All+2 to hit Spd 75 to double hit Anna/NS with Double Bow.

If equipping AT, she can't equip any proc.

The only solution is using Barrack Trick to boost her Spd+4 before the battle.

Healtouch vs Mag+2

Most of regular Apo runs doesn't require a heal. Are you preparing for a no-brave run?

[Alastor15243]

Donnel!Noire

She requires both Spd+2 and All+2 to hit Spd 75 to double hit Anna/NS with Double Bow.

If equipping AT, she can't equip any proc.

The only solution is using Barrack Trick to boost her Spd+4 before the battle.

Healtouch vs Mag+2

Most of regular Apo runs doesn't require a heal. Are you preparing for a no-brave run?

Yeah, I never use brave weapons, they kinda piss me off in how overpowered they are and how much they break apotheosis.

[Czar_Yoshi]

I'm just about to make my staffbots, and I'm curious: why is mag+2 recommended over healtouch? It sounds like they're roughly even, but I don't even see healtouch being mentioned. Mag+2 offers 1 more range, but healtouch offers 3 more HP healed for fortify and other things. I understand that with rescue range might be preferable, but surely you'd want at least one staffbot with the highest possible healing power, right?

Rescue just tends to be the more common application of Staffbots. Also, two uses of Fortify pretty much always heals everyone to full, while if someone's very damaged one use often won't cut it either way, so small healing boosts aren't as big of a deal. For healing individual units, Recover always heals them to full anyway.

Donnel!Noire

She requires both Spd+2 and All+2 to hit Spd 75 to double hit Anna/NS with Double Bow.

If equipping AT, she can't equip any proc.

The only solution is using Barrack Trick to boost her Spd+4 before the battle.

Or you could use a Longbow instead and leave off AT. That's very much preferable to the Barracks, and Longbow+proc will be outdamaging just Double Bow most of the time anyway.

And strictly speaking, there are other ways to get her to 75 Spd with a proc and no Barracks as well- give her a SM support or swap GF for the proc. Those are pretty bad options, but they do exist.

Edited October 16, 2014 by Czar_Yoshi

[zaknafein]

1. I didn't realize proc-stacking was actually good. I knew about Aether+Luna, but Igniss+Luna and Luna+Astra are also standard for apotheosis?

2. Would Stahl!Severa(Sniper) run: LB, GF, Astra, Bowfaire, Luna if paired with Inigo(Assassin)?

3. Also, wouldn't proc-stacking be better on units that always lead, like a single GF pair?

4. I actually forgot to put a proc on my Ricken!Owain!Morgan when I did apotheosis and basically ran him as a support. Wouldn't having 4 procs between R!O!Morgan x Maribelle!Lucina be a waste of skill slots?

[Czar_Yoshi]

1. Yes.

2. That's one set, yes.

3. Not really- not being a dedicated lead doesn't actually give you any fewer turns to use procs. Say you've got a Lucina and have a choice between pairing her with Owain or Yarne- either way, she's going to get two turns up front, so it doesn't make a difference.

4. Galeboys don't have room for two procs between LB/GF/Agg/Faire/Proc.

[Alastor15243]

4. Galeboys don't have room for two procs between LB/GF/Agg/Faire/Proc.

With the exception of certain builds, like my +Skill -Def Lon'qu!Yarne!Morgan Assassin build, where you recommended he go LB/GF/Agg/Luna/Ignis.

[Alastor15243]

So, I just checked apotheosis... it allows for 19 non-chrom units, which means my eventual team of 14, 4 rally bots, and... one staff bot.

I guess that means that I should equip any staff-wielding members of my team to be able to fill in for my staff bot in a pinch, and that consists of Brady and Laurent of my planned group. Technically Nah too, but she's married to Brady, who has vastly superior magic, so unless I split them up for staffbottery, no reason to use Nah. How should I set up my Libra!Laurent (married to DF Gaius!Noire) and Ricken!Brady (Married to Bride Virion!Nah) to best work around the one staffbot issue?

[Czar_Yoshi]

With the exception of certain builds, like my +Skill -Def Lon'qu!Yarne!Morgan Assassin build, where you recommended he go LB/GF/Agg/Luna/Ignis.

Since you're not using Braves, Morgan has less reason to stay in the back and thus makes better use of two procs. If one was running Braves, I'd advise at least running some calcs to see if you want to drop the Faire for a proc.

So, I just checked apotheosis... it allows for 19 non-chrom units, which means my eventual team of 14, 4 rally bots, and... one staff bot.

I guess that means that I should equip any staff-wielding members of my team to be able to fill in for my staff bot in a pinch, and that consists of Brady and Laurent of my planned group. Technically Nah too, but she's married to Brady, who has vastly superior magic, so unless I split them up for staffbottery, no reason to use Nah. How should I set up my Libra!Laurent (married to DF Gaius!Noire) and Ricken!Brady (Married to Bride Virion!Nah) to best work around the one staffbot issue?

4 Rallybots? Obviously give them Rescues too, so you can retask one or two of them in emergencies. But yeah, it's a very good idea to stock Rescue on all your staff-using combat units (an often-overlooked perk of Sage, and a reason to consider Falco) who can use it.

You may see use in replacing the one dedicated Staffbot with Olivia, particularly if Chrom is free to be a BK ferry/+Mov support for her.

[Alastor15243]

Since you're not using Braves, Morgan has less reason to stay in the back and thus makes better use of two procs. If one was running Braves, I'd advise at least running some calcs to see if you want to drop the Faire for a proc.

Ohhhhhh.

4 Rallybots? Obviously give them Rescues too, so you can retask one or two of them in emergencies. But yeah, it's a very good idea to stock Rescue on all your staff-using combat units (an often-overlooked perk of Sage, and a reason to consider Falco) who can use it.

You may see use in replacing the one dedicated Staffbot with Olivia, particularly if Chrom is free to be a BK ferry/+Mov support for her.

Oh right, Olivia, forgot.

Yeah, staffbotting my rallybots might be a good idea, though it does ruin the aesthetic choice I had planned to have all four of the rally bots be different flying classes so I could tell them apart at a glance (Einherjar and Robin/Morgan all look so alike in map sprites). But yeah, having them use staffs is probably worth the mild annoyance/confusion.

Who should I have be responsible for fortify spamming, since I'm not using braves and there'll be a lot of damage taken?

[Czar_Yoshi]

Anyone. With as many atp as you have, it likely won't make a difference in the number of turns it takes you to get a route if one or two of your units stay back on the rounds that you need it. You'll also have time for full heals in between rounds, and the time limit for the last two rounds won't be much of an issue so you can easily take a turn off there to heal and position stuff (my first S.Apo clear had only 8 apt and I had several turns to spare there) since enemies don't zerg rush there.