PAIRINGS The Pairing Thread

[zaknafein]

3. Not really- not being a dedicated lead doesn't actually give you any fewer turns to use procs. Say you've got a Lucina and have a choice between pairing her with Owain or Yarne- either way, she's going to get two turns up front, so it doesn't make a difference.

4. Galeboys don't have room for two procs between LB/GF/Agg/Faire/Proc.

You answered my follow up question for 3 with 4.

So, faire takes priority over 2nd proc in the case of Luna + Igniss/Astra?

Thanks.

[Czar_Yoshi]

Sometimes. Realistically, either one will provide high performance, and I recommend them the way I do because usually the female spends more time in front and male spends more time in the back.

If you want to do calcs and see which is more effective, you can- it'll depend on the foe's Def/Res but that doesn't have a terribly large range in Apo.

[Ownagepuffs]

IIRC Res ranges from like 40 to 64 and Def ranges from like 40 to 70. Most generics hover in the 50s

[zaknafein]

Sometimes. Realistically, either one will provide high performance, and I recommend them the way I do because usually the female spends more time in front and male spends more time in the back.

If you want to do calcs and see which is more effective, you can- it'll depend on the foe's Def/Res but that doesn't have a terribly large range in Apo.

2 Procs on the backline male seems like it would lower damage because GF, LB, Faire, Agg, and Luna. I thought proc stacking might not be as good because the procs are useless when the galeboy does his 1 turn. I doubt it would matter too much since I don't hit the higher priority targets with galeboys leading anyway.

As far as the effectiveness, the proc-stack would be better on higher def/res targets right?

[Czar_Yoshi]

Usually it is less effective on males, but he's playing with no Braves so there's not as much of a reason for males to be mostly support.

Luna gives a bigger boost the higher the Def, and the higher the Def the more likely it is that you'll need a proc for the kill, so yes, procstack will make a bigger difference on your odds of getting the KO the higher the foe's Def is.

[MelonGx]

IIRC Res ranges from like 40 to 64 and Def ranges from like 40 to 70. Most generics hover in the 50s

Even excepting Res.64s and Def.70s, the average Def is still higher than average Res.

Most of the hi-Res enemies are flying units which boosts magical users' firepower by 18, but most of the hi-Def enemies don't have any weakness which Braves enhance. (If plays no Braves, then Armor Slayer & Beastkiller become practical, though they don't work on top tier Defs.)

Edited October 19, 2014 by MelonGx

[Czar_Yoshi]

True... But those high-Def/Res foes are still the most important targets.

When in doubt, take things on a case-by-case basis. Using averages for enemy stats in Apo is bound to produce oversights somewhere.

[burgerkong]

OK, so I've finalized my pairings for the most part, and ran some calcs. Here are the pairings I've decided, at least for now:

Pairings

1. Avatar (+Spd/-Luck) @Dark Flier X Chrom @Bow Knight

2. Avatar!Lucina @Dark Flier X Libra!Laurent @Dread Fighter

3. Kellam!Inigo @Assassin X Gregor!Kjelle @Assassin

4. Fred!Cynthia @Falcon Knight X Chrom!Morgan @Sniper

5. Stahl!Severa @Sniper X Lon’qu!Yarne @Assassin

6. Gaius!Noire @Dark Flier X Virion!Brady @Sage

7. Henry!Nah @Valkyrie X Ricken!Owain @Sage

Forever alone: Gerome

Calcs next post, just to keep this one cleaner.

7 pairs here, so 6 more units to bring. Olivia + 2 Rallybot + 3 Staffbot? 3 Rallybots seems awkward.

I have one pair with Magical lead/Physical support (MU & Chrom), with 3 dedicated to physical and 3 dedicated to magic. A lot of cookie-cutter builds here IMO, but I figured I'd keep it simple for my first Apo run.

5 pairs with 2 APT, 2 pairs with 3 APT.

Also, if Czar or any other informed persons could post a few more hit thresholds, I would be grateful! Just so I know how I can play with my forges :P

Edited October 22, 2014 by burgerkong

[burgerkong]

Sorry in advance for the formatting. Probably very difficult to follow, hence the bolding & TL;DR's at the end.

I think these class choices are pretty good overall, but don't know if there's anything blatant I'm overlooking. I salute anyone who takes the time to actually read all my calcs, but just analysing the end results is fine too.

If anyone has any of the higher hit rate thresholds I would greatly appreciate it for playing around with forges. On a side note, if I made a fundamental mistake in my calculations please let me know, though that means I have to redo a helluva lot of this :(

So here we go:

[spoiler=1. Avatar @Dark Flier & Chrom @Bow Knight]

Avatar (+Speed/-Luck) @ Dark Flier [GF/Luna/Ignis/TF]

Ø Speed: 46 (base & mods) + 10 (LB) + 10 (rally) + 2 (tonic) + 8 (pair up) = 76 Speed

Ø Dual Strike%: 43 (my skill) + 44 (partner’s) + 20 (LBs) + 20 (rallies) + 4 (tonics) + 8 (pair up) = 139/4 + 60 (support) + 10 (DS+) = 100% DS

Ø Total Hit: 120 [43+10+8 (skill+LB+pair up)x3 + 44+10+3 (luck+LB+pair up)/2] + 105+5 (weapon hit rate+rank bonus) + 15 (support) = 245 hit with Celica’s, 235 with Brave Lance*

Chrom @ Bow Knight [DS+/Agg/BF/Hit+20]

Ø Total Hit: 109 [44+10 (skill+LB)x3 + 46+10 (luck+LB)/2] + 95+5 (weapon hit rate+rank bonus) + 20 (Hit+20) = 229 hit with Brave Bow

*Is it worth it to give Avatar forged Brave Lance to bypass Aegis?

TL;DR = +75 Speed, 100% DS, +240 hit

[spoiler=2. Avatar!Lucina @Dark Flier & Libra!Laurent @Dread Fighter]

Avatar!Lucina (+Speed/-Luck) @ Dark Flier [GF/Luna/Aether/DS+]

Ø Speed: 48 (base & mods) + 10 (LB) + 10 (rally) + 2 (tonic) + 6 (pair up) = 76 Speed

Ø Dual Strike%: 45 (my skill) + 43 (partner’s) + 20 (LBs) + 20 (rallies) + 4 (tonics) + 3 (pair up) = 135/4 + 60 (support) + 10 (DS+) = 100% DS

Ø Total Hit: 116.5 [45+10+3 (skill+LB+pair up)x3 + 46+10+3 (luck+LB+pair up)/2] + 105+5 (weapon hit rate+rank bonus) + 20 (support + D Support+) + 10 (Anathema) = 256 hit with Celica’s, 246 with Brave Lance

Libra!Laurent @ Dread Fighter* [Agg/TF/D Support+/Anathema]

Ø Total Hit: 107 [43+10 (skill+LB)x3 + 45+10 (luck+LB)/2] + 105+5 (weapon hit rate+rank bonus) + 10 (Anathema) = 227 hit with Celica’s

*Dread Fighter seems far from ideal for Laurent’s damage output & hit, but it makes use of Laurent’s +5 Mag mod, gives Lucina a little bit of extra oomph, and pushes her just over 75 Speed

TL;DR = +75 Speed, 100% DS, +250 hit

[spoiler=3. Kellam!Inigo @Assassin & Gregor!Kjelle @Assassin]

Kellam!Inigo @ Assassin [GF/Agg/Luna/AS+2]

Ø Speed: 46+2 (base & mods + AS+2) + 10 (LB) + 10 (rally) + 2 (tonic) + 9 (pair up) = 79 Speed

Ø Dual Strike%: 51+2 (my skill+AS+2) + 53+2+1 (partner’s+AS+2+Defender) + 20 (LBs) + 20 (rallies) + 4 (tonics) + 7 (pair up) = 160/4 + 60 (support) = 100% DS

Ø Total Hit: 134.5 [51+2+10+7 (skill+AS+2+LB+pair up)x3 + 44+2+10+3(luck+AS+2+LB)/2] + 105 (weapon hit rate+rank bonus) + 20 (support + D Support+) = 259 hit with Brave Sword, 254 hit with Brave Bow

Gregor!Kjelle @ Assassin [sF/D Support+/AS+2/Defender]*

Ø Total Hit: 128 [53+2+1+10 (skill+AS+2+Defender+LB)x3 + 45+2+1+10 (luck+AS+2+Defender+LB)/2] + 95+5 (weapon hit rate+rank bonus) = 228 hit with Brave Bow, 233 hit with Brave Sword

*Kjelle as hard support kind of hurts my soul, but >75 Speed & 100% DS is nice

TL;DR = +75 Speed, 100% DS, +250 hit

[spoiler=4. Fred!Cynthia @Falcon Knight & Chrom!Morgan @Sniper]

Fred!Cynthia @ Falcon Knight [GF/Luna/AS+2/Spd+2*]

Ø Speed: 46+2+2 (base & mods+AS+2+Spd+2) + 10 (LB) + 10 (rally) + 2 (tonic) + 3 (pair up) = 75 Speed

Ø Dual Strike%: 50+2 (my skill+AS+2) + 52 (partner’s) + 20 (LBs) + 20 (rallies) + 4 (tonics) + 8 (pair up) = 156/4 + 60 (support) = 99% DS**

Ø Total Hit (as Lead): 135.5 [50+2+10+8 (skill+AS+2+LB+pair up)x3 + 46+2+10+3 (luck+AS+2+LB+pair up)/2] + 95+5 (weapon hit rate+rank bonus) + 15 (support) = 250 hit with Brave Lance

Ø Total Hit (as Support): 122 [50+2+10 (skill+AS+2+LB)x3 + 46+2+10 (luck+AS+2+LB)/2] + 95+5 (weapon hit rate+rank bonus) = 222 hit with Brave Lance

Chrom!Morgan (+Speed/-Luck) @ Sniper [GF/Luna/Agg/BF]

Ø Speed: 46 (base & mods) + 10 (LB) + 10 (rally) + 2 (tonic) + 9 (pair up) = 77 Speed

Ø Dual Strike%: 52 (my skill) + 50+2 (partner’s+AS+2) + 20 (LBs) + 20 (rallies) + 4 (tonics) + 3 (pair up) = 151/4 + 60 (support) = 97% DS

Ø Total Hit (as Support): 121 [52+10 (skill+LB)x3 + 46+10 (luck+LB)/2] + 95+5 (weapon hit rate+rank bonus) = 221 hit with Brave Bow

Ø Total Hit (as Lead): 127 [52+10+3 (skill+LB+pair up)x3 + 46+10+3 (luck+LB+pair up)/2] + 95+5 (weapon hit rate+rank bonus) + 15 (support) = 242 hit with Brave Bow

*Uninspired, but it does let her hit 75 Speed. Any other suggestions would be appreciated? No second proc option, so…

**Never have I regretted doing +Speed for main game more than now. Morgan needs to run AS+2 & Skl+2 to hit 100% DS, since running AS+2 & Defender on Cynthia is literally 1 Skill short.

TL;DR - +75 Speed on both, 99 & 97% DS, +240 hit

[spoiler=5. Stahl!Severa @Sniper & Lon'qu!Yarne @Assassin]

Stahl!Severa @ Sniper [GF/Luna/Astra/AS+2]

Ø Speed: 43+2 (base & mods+AS+2) + 10 (LB) + 10 (rally) + 2 (tonic) + 9 (pair up) = 76 Speed

Ø Dual Strike%: 52+2 (my skill+AS+2) + 54+2 (partner’s+AS+2) + 20 (LBs) + 20 (rallies) + 4 (tonics) + 7 (pair up) = 161/4 + 60 (support) = 100% DS

Ø Total Hit: 135.5 [52+2+10+7 (skill+AS+2+LB+pair up)x3 + 43+2+10+3 (luck+AS+2+LB+pair up)/2] + 95+5 (weapon hit rate+rank bonus) + 15 (support) = 250 hit with Brave Bow

Lon’qu!Yarne @ Assassin [Agg/SF/AS+2/Str+2*]

Ø Total Hit: 127.5 [54+2+10 (skill+AS+2+LB)x3 + 45+2+10 (luck+AS+2+LB)/2] + 105 (weapon hit rate+rank bonus) = 232 hit with Brave Sword

*Let me know if I’m overlooking some blatantly obvious other choice here. Lon’qu!Yarne’s skill set is incredibly lacklustre, and he’s going to be in the back for the most part anyways.

TL;DR - +75 Speed, 100% DS, +250 hit

[spoiler=6. Gaius!Noire @Dark Flier & Virion!Brady @Sage]

Gaius!Noire @ Dark Flier [GF/Luna/Astra/Anathema*]

Ø Speed: 46 (base & mods) + 10 (LB) + 10 (rally) + 2 (tonic) + 3 (pair up) = 71 Speed

Ø Dual Strike%: 43 (my skill) + 47 (partner’s) + 20 (LBs) + 20 (rallies) + 4 (tonics) + 8 (pair up) = 142/4 + 60 (support) = 95% DS

Ø Total Hit (as Lead): 118.5 [43+10+8 (skill+LB+pair up)x3 + 41+10+3 (luck+LB+pair up)/2] + 105+5 (weapon hit rate+rank bonus) + 15 (support) + 10 (Anathema) = 253 hit with Celica’s

Ø Total Hit (as Support): 105 [43+10 (skill+LB)x3 + 41+10 (luck+LB)/2] + 105+5 (weapon hit rate+rank bonus) + 10 (Anathema) = 225 hit with Celica’s

Virion!Brady @ Sage [GF/Agg/Luna/TF]

Ø Speed: 45 (base & mods) + 10 (LB) + 10 (rally) + 2 (tonic) + 8 (pair up) = 75 Speed

Ø Dual Strike%: 47 (my skill) + 43 (partner’s) + 20 (LBs) + 20 (rallies) + 4 (tonics) + 3 (pair up) = 137/4 + 60 (support) = 94% DS

Ø Total Hit (as Support): 114.5 [47+10 (skill+LB)x3 + 48+10 (luck+LB)/2] + 105+5 (weapon hit rate+rank bonus) + 10 (Anathema) = 234 hit with Celica’s

Ø Total Hit (as Lead): 120.5 [47+10+3 (skill+LB+pair up)x3 + 48+10+3 (luck+LB+pair up)/2] + 105+5 (weapon hit rate+rank bonus) + 15 (support) + 10 (Anathema) = 255 hit with Celica’s

TL;DR - +75 Speed on Brady, 95 & 94% DS, +250 hit on Leads & +220 hit on Supports

[spoiler=7. Henry!Nah @Valkyrie & Ricken!Owain @Sage]

Henry!Nah @ Valkyrie [TF/Vengeance/Anathema/AS+2*]

Ø Speed: 42+2 (base & mods + AS+2) + 10 (LB) + 10 (rally) + 2 (tonic) + 3 (pair up) = 69 Speed

Ø Dual Strike%: 40+2 (my skill+AS+2) + 43 (partner’s) + 20 (LBs) + 20 (rallies) + 4 (tonics) + 8 (pair up) = 137/4 + 60 (support) = 94% DS

Ø Total Hit (as Lead): 120 [40+2+10+8 (skill+AS+2+LB+pair up)x3 + 45+2+10+3 (luck+AS+2+LB+pair up)/2] + 105+5 (weapon hit rate+rank bonus) + 15 (support) + 10 (Anathema) = 255 hit with Celica’s

Ø Total Hit (as Support): 106.5 [40+2+10 (skill+AS+2+LB)x3 + 45+2+10 (luck+AS+2+LB)/2] + 105+5 (weapon hit rate+rank bonus) + 10 (Anathema) = 226 hit with Celica’s

Ricken!Owain @ Sage [GF/Agg/Luna/TF]

Ø Speed: 43 (base & mods) + 10 (LB) + 10 (rally) + 2 (tonic) + 7 (pair up) = 72 Speed

Ø Dual Strike%: 43 (my skill) + 40+2 (partner’s+AS+2) + 20 (LBs) + 20 (rallies) + 4 (tonics) + 3 (pair up) = 132/4 + 60 (support) = 93% DS

Ø Total Hit (as Support): 109 [43+10 (skill+LB)x3 + 49+10 (luck+LB)/2] + 105+5 (weapon hit rate+rank bonus) + 10 (Anathema) = 229 hit with Celica’s

Ø Total Hit (as Lead): 115 [43+10+3 (skill+LB+pair up)x3 + 49+10+3 (luck+LB+pair up)/2] + 105+5 (weapon hit rate+rank bonus) + 15 (support) + 10 (Anathema) = 250 hit with Celica’s

*Czar recommended Wrath here, does anyone have any relevant calcs regarding it? Crit builds have never really appealed to me, and AS+2 lets her hit 69 Speed threshold.

TL;DR - +69 Speed, 94 & 93% DS, +250 hit on Leads & +220 hit on Supports

EDIT - FML FORGOT TONICS IN HIT CALCS. lol jk, it literally adds like 4 hit though, so it's not a crippling oversight.

However, it specifically allows Laurent & Nah to get away with +220 hit without resorting to Anathema if I did my calcs right. But I honestly don't know what would be better to replace Anathema with given their limited skillslots...

Edited October 22, 2014 by burgerkong

[isetrh]

I believe the important hit thresholds are 220 for mooks, 239 for Invincisorc, 248 for Thronie, and 257 for Anna.

Virion!Yarne can do some things that Lon'qu!Yarne can't (Bowfaire, Hit+20) if those means anything to you. It doesn't look like it affects any of your thresholds for better or for worse.

Edited October 22, 2014 by isetrh

[burgerkong]

I believe the important hit thresholds are 220 for mooks, 239 for Invincisorc, 248 for Thronie, and 257 for Anna.

Virion!Yarne can do some things that Lon'qu!Yarne can't (Bowfaire, Hit+20) if that means anything to you. It doesn't look like it affects any of your thresholds for better or for worse.

Thanks so much for the additional hit thresholds! Will record them and adjust my forges as necessary. It looks like none of my characters have 100% hit on Anna (Inigo has the requisite hit rate with Brave Sword, but WTD pushes it under), but I don't see it being too big of a deal.

Unfortunately, Lon'qu!Yarne is locked in. Pairings like Panne X Lon'qu, Fred X Sumia, Sully X Gregor, Stahl X Cordelia, & Chrom X Avatar were for stomping the main game (Hard Mode since I haven't played Awakening for a year and a half now), so I'm trying to do my best to optimize with them locked in, which has been interesting.

[isetrh]

Ah, well that's fine as far as I know. Hit+20 is good if Yarne is going to be a Berserker, but if he's an Assassin it seems like it's just a matter of Swordfaire or Bowfaire. Sorry I couldn't answer more of your questions--you'll need one of the experts for those, and "the experts" pretty much means Czar_Yoshi.

Edited October 22, 2014 by isetrh

[Czar_Yoshi]

I didn't read everything (I'll get around to it tomorrow, and give a full analysis), but I'm noticing that you forgot Rallies in your Hit calcs. +10 Skl and +14 Lck (don't forget that Rally Lck gives +8) make a pretty big difference.

When doing Hitrate calculations I prefer to calculate Skl and Lck in separate steps from Hit itself. eg:

Skl: base +mods +LB +Rally +pairup +tonic =

Lck: base +mods +LB +Rally +pairup +tonic =

Hit: base +weapon +pairup +skills =

This is also nice because you now have your Skl calculated separately when you want to check your DS rate, instead of having to dig it out of a pile of numbers somewhere.

Also, Defender has no effect when supporting.

[burgerkong]

I didn't read everything (I'll get around to it tomorrow, and give a full analysis), but I'm noticing that you forgot Rallies in your Hit calcs. +10 Skl and +14 Lck (don't forget that Rally Lck gives +8) make a pretty big difference.

When doing Hitrate calculations I prefer to calculate Skl and Lck in separate steps from Hit itself. eg:

Skl: base +mods +LB +Rally +pairup +tonic =

Lck: base +mods +LB +Rally +pairup +tonic =

Hit: base +weapon +pairup +skills =

This is also nice because you now have your Skl calculated separately when you want to check your DS rate, instead of having to dig it out of a pile of numbers somewhere.

Also, Defender has no effect when supporting.

Goddamnit, more stuff to fix X___X

Czar, don't bother analyzing them yet. I'll rerun the calcs with fixes & change around some stuff.

The lack of Defender buff in support means the Inigo-Kjelle pair fails to 100% DS currently, meaning I'll probably have to switch her to Bow Knight (she doesn't have Archer access).

[Alastor15243]

Hey, since Luck is pretty much useless, does that mean intentionally dump statting it is a good idea? Does it mean that a +Str/Skl/Mag and -Lck Gaius!Noire!Morgan, with her -7 luck but otherwise fantastic all-around stats, is a good build?

[Czar_Yoshi]

Having a unit who fails to get 100% AT even with LB is certainly interesting.

Losing that Lck won't really hurt you, so it's not something to avoid, but you might have to worry about crits while training. Otherwise Gaius!Noire!Morgan is pretty good (seriously, look at Gaius's mods. Some of the best in the game, father-wise, right there).

Edited October 22, 2014 by Czar_Yoshi

[Alastor15243]

Having a unit who fails to get 100% AT even with LB is certainly interesting.

Losing that Lck won't really hurt you, so it's not something to avoid, but you might have to worry about crits while training. Otherwise Gaius!Noire!Morgan is pretty good (seriously, look at Gaius's mods. Some of the best in the game, father-wise, right there).

I can't believe the great Czar_Yoshi forgot about Tonics :)

45 - 7(Mods) + 10(LB) +2(tonic) = 50.

Edited October 22, 2014 by Alastor15243

[burgerkong]

Hey, since Luck is pretty much useless, does that mean intentionally dump statting it is a good idea? Does it mean that a +Str/Skl/Mag and -Lck Gaius!Noire!Morgan, with her -7 luck but otherwise fantastic all-around stats, is a good build?

Stat-dumping is fine, but you shouldn't go out of your way to do it. Skill distribution is still much more important outside of maximizing the Skill stat for 100% DS pairups.

Also, -Def is still probably the most optimal flaw. I did -Luck for an easier time in a no-grind playthrough, but -Def is generally better. Tanking is a pretty poor strategy in Apo, and Luck at least gives you some more Hit/Avoid.

Goddamnit, more stuff to fix X___X

Czar, don't bother analyzing them yet. I'll rerun the calcs with fixes & change around some stuff.

The lack of Defender buff in support means the Inigo-Kjelle pair fails to 100% DS currently, meaning I'll probably have to switch her to Bow Knight (she doesn't have Archer access).

And wow I brainfarted, Bow Knight has +1 Skill Pair Up but much lower Skill cap, so I can't get 100% DS with this pair no matter what T___T

May have to do some shuffling with my pairings, loathe as I am to do so. Haven't finalized any pairings outside of:

Avatar X Chrom

Cordelia X Stahl

Sumia X Fred

Panne X Lon'qu

Sully X Gregor

Ok, so by switching Morgan & Inigo, I can get 100% DS with Morgan & Kjelle. This leaves me with:

Avatar (+Speed/-Luck) @Dark Flier

Chrom @Bow Knight

Avatar!Lucina @Dark Flier

Libra!Laurent @ Dread Fighter

Ricken!Owain @Sage

Henry!Nah @Valkyrie

Fred!Cynthia @Falcon Knight

Kellam!Inigo @Berserker/Assassin

Stahl!Severa @Sniper

Lonqu!Yarne @Assassin

Chrom!Morgan @Sniper

Gregor!Kjelle @Assassin

Gaius!Noire @Dark Flier

Virion!Brady @Sage

Now I have 2 dedicated Sniper pairs with 2 APT, which is somewhat redundant, but Morgan would be using Brave Bow as an Assassin anyway, and Double Bow access is nice I guess.

Also, I'm unsure what to do with Inigo. Him & Cynthia won't be hitting 100% DS, and either Berserker or Assassin work if I want a 75+ Spd pair.

I'll post the calcs once I've done them, but basically just asking for advice on his end class. Of note is that I have literally no Axe users atm, but that's not super relevant to me.

Edited October 23, 2014 by Red Fox of Fire

[Czar_Yoshi]

I can't believe the great Czar_Yoshi forgot about Tonics :)

I also never mentioned Rallies, pairup or All+2, because AT is primarily for non-Apo postgame, where it's usually redundant and/or unnecessary to use all that stuff.

Now I have 2 dedicated Sniper pairs with 2 APT, which is somewhat redundant, but Morgan would be using Brave Bow as an Assassin anyway, and Double Bow access is nice I guess.

Also, I'm unsure what to do with Inigo. Him & Cynthia won't be hitting 100% DS, and either Berserker or Assassin work if I want a 75+ Spd pair.

I'll post the calcs once I've done them, but basically just asking for advice on his end class. Of note is that I have literally no Axe users atm, but that's not super relevant to me.

75 Spd is what you want to have at least one unit of, not what all your units need to hit. The real "minimum" acceptable Spd for S.Apo is 60 (threshold for not getting doubled by Thronie). There are only three enemies with 70 Spd spread out over two waves, all of which are fairly frail by Apo standards and easy to ORKO, so all having more than two 75 Spd pairs does is give you more options for how to deal with them. And options are nice, but your team needs to be designed to do more than fight two specific enemies to do well in Apo.

The real beefgate is Thronie (64+3 Def, 55+3 Res, Aegis+, Counter, tons of Avo and enough Atk to OHKO anything that's taking damage from Counter) and his thronless wave 5 clones. They're the ones you want to watch out for.

Axes are actually one of the best weapon types in Apo, given that enemy weapon composition is made up primarily of Axes and Lances and there are almost no Swords.

[burgerkong]

I also never mentioned Rallies, pairup or All+2, because AT is primarily for non-Apo postgame, where it's usually redundant and/or unnecessary to use all that stuff.

75 Spd is what you want to have at least one unit of, not what all your units need to hit. The real "minimum" acceptable Spd for S.Apo is 60 (threshold for not getting doubled by Thronie). There are only three enemies with 70 Spd spread out over two waves, all of which are fairly frail by Apo standards and easy to ORKO, so all having more than two 75 Spd pairs does is give you more options for how to deal with them. And options are nice, but your team needs to be designed to do more than fight two specific enemies to do well in Apo.

The real beefgate is Thronie (64+3 Def, 55+3 Res, Aegis+, Counter, tons of Avo and enough Atk to OHKO anything that's taking damage from Counter) and his thronless wave 5 clones. They're the ones you want to watch out for.

Axes are actually one of the best weapon types in Apo, given that enemy weapon composition is made up primarily of Axes and Lances and there are almost no Swords.

Noted, thanks for the advice. I guess I'm overemphasising the ability to double everything where it's not necessary at the cost of all-around capabilities.

I'll likely switch Laurent to Sage, and Inigo to Warrior for flexibility (Brave Bow access to avoid Counter, 69+ Speed, etc.). It still leaves me with Morgan, Severa, and Brady for 75+ Speed access.

I've heard Physical Lead (preferably with Bow access) + Magical Support is the best way to deal with Thronie, but I haven't ran any calcs yet to see how well any of my pairs deal with him.

[zaknafein]

I did apotheosis without any 75 speed characters. Unless you're doing some sort of challenge run, you'll be fine if you have a Sniper.

[Czar_Yoshi]

Thronie has tons of Def and Aegis+, so Bows are actually one of the least effective weapons on him, damage-wise (they're good if you're Longbowing, though- he's only got 2 range). Tomes can hit his weaker defensive stat, so I'd go with those instead.

[Alastor15243]

Thronie has tons of Def and Aegis+, so Bows are actually one of the least effective weapons on him, damage-wise (they're good if you're Longbowing, though- he's only got 2 range). Tomes can hit his weaker defensive stat, so I'd go with those instead.

If you're using a dread fighter or another such mageknight and aren't using braves, would a forged levin sword or bolt axe be a useful investment in this case? Hits res, targets Pavise?

[Czar_Yoshi]

Yes, Levins give the highest single damage hits on Thronie, and it you're not using Braves they're wonderful tools for fighting him.

I recommend Levin over Bolt personally, as Hit will almost never be an issue and they have better distribution. DFs, GMs and DKs are god Levin users, DFs and Monks are good for Bolts.

The lowly Trickster also deserves some mention here as the fastest user of either Levin or Bolt who has good enough Mag to back it up. They're normally a silly class due to being swordlocked with 35 Str, but since Levin is a thing for you it might be worth looking into them (they do have very nice Skl and pairup bonuses).

Edited October 23, 2014 by Czar_Yoshi

[Rydia]

Here I am again...

I'm starting to work on my lunatic plus couples and I'm very unsure about Laurent's father: should I pick Henry for a good vengeance+counter combo or pick Ricken for Aegis? Also, I never really used Laurent before so... what should I pass him down from his parents?

Edited October 24, 2014 by Rydia