PAIRINGS The Pairing Thread

[Alastor15243]

I think he said he was getting LB but didn't have it yet somewhere. I noticed the agg thing too, I thought he didn't have that DLC till I saw the DF Owain. Henry!Nah seems really cool...anathema with natural tomefaire access, a female magical hard support with excellent pair-up bonuses for a galeboy. What would be her exact set though? (Anathema/TF/As+2/LB/??)

Vengeance would be the last one I'm fairly certain.

[Czar_Yoshi]

I think he said he was getting LB but didn't have it yet somewhere. I noticed the agg thing too, I thought he didn't have that DLC till I saw the DF Owain. Henry!Nah seems really cool...anathema with natural tomefaire access, a female magical hard support with excellent pair-up bonuses for a galeboy. What would be her exact set though? (Anathema/TF/As+2/LB/??)

Her main one is LB/TF/Vengeance and either a mix of Auras and +Mov skills or Anathema and Wrath, with an optional Focus over TF (all as a Valkyrie).

She can also get Axefaire and some Auras to make a nice Wyvern Lord, if you want.

[Alastor15243]

Oh, and Counter has no effect in Apo.

EDIT: Sorry, I completely misread this post and was about to argue that counter was better than vengeance in no-brave runs until I realized that he said "has no effect", as in "negated by dragonskin", not "is useless" as in "isn't powerful enough to merit equipping".

But that argument I made still detailed why I consider vengeance to be worthless without brave weapons, and so here is a revised version of it.

Vengeance is useful on brave runs because you have twelve hits, four of them the lead's, and six of them (two of them the lead's) before the enemy even lays a finger on you unless the enemy has vantage+.

Compare this to no-brave runs, where you get four slightly stronger hits, TWO of them the lead's, and ONE of those lead attacks before the enemy lays a finger on you.

You're not going to be killing ANYTHING before it lays a finger on you anymore, you need all four hits, both before and after the enemy's attack, in order to kill the enemy, and even then, it'll require you to be clever about how you build your teams, and it'll also require a decent bit of luck. Miss a proc too many (or even any procs at all on the tougher enemies) and you'll whiff. Oh, and don't even think about attacking enemies using weapons the enemy's shield skill can halve, or you're definitely whiffing.

A few things to notice here:

1: Everyone will be taking damage. A lot. If you don't get a dual-guard, you're taking damage before you kill the enemy. You will be very lucky if your team got enough dual guards for your staffbots to physic everyone to health again, especially if you're playing with a full team.

2: As a result, fortify will be spammed pretty much every turn, except during waves in which you're facing a lot of single-range enemies.

3: This means that vengeance's power will be reset at the end of every turn.

With this in mind, here is vengeance's REAL effective attack power:

It does no damage the first attack, and then has a (100 - Dual Guard Rate)% chance of increasing your second attack's damage by half of the enemy's attack power.

That's... really bad. It's essentially a proc that only activates on the second attack, and at a 50-60% success rate. That's compared to Luna, which can activate on both attacks and generally has a success rate that, at its lowest, is in the 60-70% range. And that's ignoring procstacking.

Sure, you can bait enemies to attack you on the enemy phase before you begin your next turn's assault, but in order for this to be equal to or superior to Luna or Ignis, you'd have to take damage equal to or greater than your enemy's defense or your unit's magic respectively, which is generally above 42, the maximum amount of damage you can take twice and survive. Meaning that even if you successfully get hit, you're likely going to go down if you get hit even one more time, meaning you've now limited yourself in terms of what range you can attack in.

In short, while Vengeance can theoretically be made to work if you're really clever about it, Luna and Ignis work just as well, and in any situation at all. And that's not even counting procstacking, which makes vengeance even more clearly inferior.

Anyway, that's why I dislike vengeance.

Edited January 9, 2015 by Alastor15243

[Rhaegar Targaryen]

I like Vengeance a great deal but I have to agree with the above arguments. I'd also add that it doesn't scale as well vs Apotheosis enemies, due to their comparatively high Res. However, it works very well with Vantage. If you intend to do most of your fighting during enemy phase, I can't recommend the combination highly enough. Alas, it has little synergy with Aggressor, which is fantastic when used with Brave weapons.

Where Vengeance truly shines is in StreetPass battles, combined with Miracle and Counter, but that's another topic entirely.

[Czar_Yoshi]

I like Vengeance a great deal but I have to agree with the above arguments. I'd also add that it doesn't scale as well vs Apotheosis enemies, due to their comparatively high Res. However, it works very well with Vantage. If you intend to do most of your fighting during enemy phase, I can't recommend the combination highly enough. Alas, it has little synergy with Aggressor, which is fantastic when used with Brave weapons.

Where Vengeance truly shines is in StreetPass battles, combined with Miracle and Counter, but that's another topic entirely.

VV is good in theory but in practice the stat combinations needed to make it useful don't match up with those present in Apo, and it usually winds up either being useless, redundant or a liability. Ask if you want elaboration, it's too late now.

Miracle doesn't stop DSes. It won't save a Streetpass team against someone who's been properly prepared.

[Cat1803]

Well... stomped Apotheosis SR. It was a little disappointing (I took damage twice, one of them being while baiting the Mire DFs). I can see how the Secret Path would be a pain if I didn't have experience with Lunatic+ skills, however.

Anyway, I'm thinking of doing a no-Agg run. Aggressor was really OP on my hard supports (Chrom, Laurent, Gerome, Yarne, MaMU) and helpful on my male main combatants (Inigo, Owain, Brady). I'm not experienced with challenge runs, so it might be a good place to start. Thoughts?

[Alastor15243]

Well... stomped Apotheosis SR. It was a little disappointing (I took damage twice, one of them being while baiting the Mire DFs). I can see how the Secret Path would be a pain if I didn't have experience with Lunatic+ skills, however.

Anyway, I'm thinking of doing a no-Agg run. Aggressor was really OP on my hard supports (Chrom, Laurent, Gerome, Yarne, MaMU) and helpful on my male main combatants (Inigo, Owain, Brady). I'm not experienced with challenge runs, so it might be a good place to start. Thoughts?

First, are you using brave weapons? if so, and you've maxed out your characters' stats, DEFINITELY start by banning those before aggressor. As long as you have brave weapons, not having aggressor won't make a lick of difference.

[Cat1803]

First, are you using brave weapons? if so, and you've maxed out your characters' stats, DEFINITELY start by banning those before aggressor. As long as you have brave weapons, not having aggressor won't make a lick of difference.

Yeah, I used brave weapons when I wasn't using Longbows, and my characters are all maxed out (and married).

I think I can even do a no-brave run with the file I used. I've got plenty of Armsthrift distribution (legendary weapons) and several pairs that hit 75 Speed.

[Alastor15243]

Yeah, I used brave weapons when I wasn't using Longbows, and my characters are all maxed out (and married).

I think I can even do a no-brave run with the file I used. I've got plenty of Armsthrift distribution (legendary weapons) and several pairs that hit 75 Speed.

Just try it first before doing no-aggressor, see if you can manage it. It's MUCH harder, but if you managed things properly you should be able to still do it.

Edited January 12, 2015 by Alastor15243

[ckc22]

I need some help with my last few pairs. I always get stuck when I get down to the last 5 kids:

Basically I have Gerome, Yarne, Nah, Severa, and Brady who need fathers.

The remaining fathers I have are: Stahl, Virion, Henry, Libra, Vaike, Lonqu and Kellam.

Looking to optimize in line with apotheosis/postgame not in game.

[Czar_Yoshi]

Virion is either high or top of the list for every single one of them, so save him for last to clean up. Vaike will either want to go on Nah or be benched as well, and Kellam can't compete with any of them.

Stahl does well on several of them, but he's probably the best place to start anyway- I'd put him on Yarne to simplify things. That means with Gerome you have a choice of Henry or Virion. If you give him Henry (Hex/Anathema Berserker), then Nah will need Vaike and Severa and Brady get equal dibs on Lon'qu and Virion. If Gerome is given Virion, he'll be a Bowfaire Warrior, and he'll definitely want to support Lon'qu!Severa. This means Nah has her choice of Henry and Vaike (both are great) and Brady takes Libra for a slight mod boost. He could also get Henry in that scenario if Nah isn't using him, but she has first dibs if she wants him.

Basically, your options are:

Stahl!Yarne

Henry!Gerome

Vaike!Nah

Lon'qu/Virion!Severa

Lon'qu/Virion!Brady

-or-

Stahl!Yarne

Virion!Gerome

Vaike/Henry!Nah

Lon'qu!Severa

Libra/Henry!Brady

In the second set, Stahl and Virion are also interchangeable as they serve basically the same function. It depends entirely on which of the two children you'd like to have one extra Skl and which one you'd like to have two extra Str. Both of them get everything else they need, both for Apo and non-Apo postgame.

[ckc22]

Thanks for the quick reply! The first set is pretty close to what I had decided on and would make my final set:

Chrom!Cynthia

Sumia!Lucina

Sumia!Lucina!Morgan(F)

Gaius!Noire

Donnel!Kjelle

Fred!Inigo

Ricken!Owain

Gregor!Laurent

Vaike!Nah

Lonqu!Severa

Stahl!Yarne

Virion!Brady

Henry!Gerome

Anything that should be changed?

[Alastor15243]

Thanks for the quick reply! The first set is pretty close to what I had decided on and would make my final set:

Chrom!Cynthia

Sumia!Lucina

Sumia!Lucina!Morgan(F)

Gaius!Noire

Donnel!Kjelle

Fred!Inigo

Ricken!Owain

Gregor!Laurent

Vaike!Nah

Lonqu!Severa

Stahl!Yarne

Virion!Brady

Henry!Gerome

Anything that should be changed?

Those all seem great. Want some advice on pairings and classes?

Lucina, Cynthia and Morgan (as long as your MaMU's mods don't cripple her physical stats) all make absolutely friggin' deadly snipers, especially when paired up with berserkers. In fact, with the pairings you've done, you could go for all three of them being snipers with berserker boyfriends (Cynthia with Yarne, Lucina with MaMU and Morgan with Gerome). Three is probably overkill, but I'd highly recommend at least one, since sniper is the single best class in the game when it comes to apotheosis, and aether snipers are even more devastating. Best of all, Cynthia and Lucina's mods are such that with a berserker husband they can reach 75 speed, enough to double any unit in the entire game, and if your MaMU doesn't have a negative speed mod, Morgan can hit 75 too.

Also, for the record, you never need to put M or F by Morgan's name whenever you're talking about a specific iteration. Sumia!Lucina!Morgan already lets us know it's female Morgan.

[Diabeasty]

Thanks for the quick reply! The first set is pretty close to what I had decided on and would make my final set:

Chrom!Cynthia

Sumia!Lucina

Sumia!Lucina!Morgan(F)

Gaius!Noire

Donnel!Kjelle

Fred!Inigo

Ricken!Owain

Gregor!Laurent

Vaike!Nah

Lonqu!Severa

Stahl!Yarne

Virion!Brady

Henry!Gerome

Anything that should be changed?

I wouldn't call these options straight upgrades, but in my opinion you should give Stahl!Gerome, Virion!Yarne, and Henry!Nah a go. Unbench Libra and give him to Brady. That's actually my preferred setup, and I'll tell you why.

Gerome has one of the worst class sets to begin with, and while Virion gives him one class that allows him to function and decent stats, Stahl's genes give him a lot more options to work with especially if you like doing things outside of Apotheosis. Yarne only really needs some kind of hit boosting skill, since he starts with Berserker. Virion lets him re-inherit Wyvern Rider, gives him the hit boosting skill he needs, and gives him Sage so he can do magical support if you have him married to someone that can go either way. Just in terms of giving the children the most options, I like Stahl!Gerome and Virion!Yarne much more than the other way around. I like Gaius!Noire and Donnel!Kjelle more than the other way around for this reason as well. You'll want to pair Stahl!Gerome with Severa most likely. Yarne has some options, he could go with pretty much any of the remaining girls.

Brady really doesn't care who his father is for the most part, Virion and Lon'Qu let him hit 75 speed with a dark flier pair up, but you already have quite a few units that can hit 75 pretty easily, especially if you have a +SPD avatar.

Vaike!Nah is pretty nice, and is really one of the only truly good uses for Vaike's genes (Vaike!Severa is actually pretty good as well), but I've really come to like Henry!Nah a lot. She has an excellent skillset and good end classes.

[Alastor15243]

I wouldn't call these options straight upgrades, but in my opinion you should give Stahl!Gerome, Virion!Yarne, and Henry!Nah a go. Unbench Libra and give him to Brady. That's actually my preferred setup, and I'll tell you why.

Gerome has one of the worst class sets to begin with, and while Virion gives him one class that allows him to function and decent stats, Stahl's genes give him a lot more options to work with especially if you like doing things outside of Apotheosis. Yarne only really needs some kind of hit boosting skill, since he starts with Berserker. Virion lets him re-inherit Wyvern Rider, gives him the hit boosting skill he needs, and gives him Sage so he can do magical support if you have him married to someone that can go either way. Just in terms of giving the children the most options, I like Stahl!Gerome and Virion!Yarne much more than the other way around. I like Gaius!Noire and Donnel!Kjelle more than the other way around for this reason as well. You'll want to pair Stahl!Gerome with Severa most likely. Yarne has some options, he could go with pretty much any of the remaining girls.

Brady really doesn't care who his father is for the most part, Virion and Lon'Qu let him hit 75 speed with a dark flier pair up, but you already have quite a few units that can hit 75 pretty easily, especially if you have a +SPD avatar.

Vaike!Nah is pretty nice, and is really one of the only truly good uses for Vaike's genes (Vaike!Severa is actually pretty good as well), but I've really come to like Henry!Nah a lot. She has an excellent skillset and good end classes.

Personally I'd disagree with this assessment. The original quoted lineup is what I'd go with, and Stahl!Gerome is kinda overrated, especially when paired with Lon'qu!Severa.

First off, one of the biggest appeals of Lon'qu!Severa and Virion!Severa is that she's capable of, with a speed boosting support like Berserker, reaching 75 speed as a wyvern lord. Stripping Gerome of his capacity to play a viable berserker and then saddling Severa with him seems like shooting yourself in the foot.

Plus, really, Luna is the superior proc, so replacing a Luna dad with a vengeance dad for Nah really isn't doing her any favors. Henry's WAY better applied as Gerome's father so he can be a berserker.

And Virion is a way better father than Libra for Brady. Libra has one better magic, but Virion has 1 better skill and 2 better speed.

And needless to say, replacing Stahl with Virion for Yarne is a net loss as well, because it reduces Yarne's strength by two.

So in my opinion all of these changes would be net losses.

Edited January 18, 2015 by Alastor15243

[ckc22]

Lucina, Cynthia and Morgan (as long as your MaMU's mods don't cripple her physical stats) all make absolutely friggin' deadly snipers, especially when paired up with berserkers. In fact, with the pairings you've done, you could go for all three of them being snipers with berserker boyfriends (Cynthia with Yarne, Lucina with MaMU and Morgan with Gerome). Three is probably overkill, but I'd highly recommend at least one, since sniper is the single best class in the game when it comes to apotheosis, and aether snipers are even more devastating. Best of all, Cynthia and Lucina's mods are such that with a berserker husband they can reach 75 speed, enough to double any unit in the entire game, and if your MaMU doesn't have a negative speed mod, Morgan can hit 75 too.

Thanks Diabeasty :) - I think I like my sets, they're actually not that far from what I did as my 1st playthrough a long time ago, in the "completionist" type file that I have right now my pairs are:

(only the ones that were different)

Kellam!Yarne

Stahl!Gerome

Henry!Brady

benched: Libra & Virion

I used to think Virion was a horrible dad, but with so many of the kids already having the skills they need especially when using DLC his good mods actually work for quite a few. I still think Libra is a pretty bad dad for most of the children though. I think Henry was being wasted on Brady and goes much better with Gerome, which lets Yarne take stahl as a flat upgrade over kellam.

Anyways in terms of pairs for my new set I was thinking:

Lucina x Male MU (likely +speed or +skill - opinions?, definitely -def) like the idea of aether/luna sniper x berserker 100% DS here

Morgan x Owain (magical double gale pair, dark flier x sage)

Cynthia x Brady (magical double gale pair, dark flier x sage)

Severa x Gerome (wyvern lord x berserker)

Less sure about:

Laurent x Noire (magical?)

Kjelle x Yarne (??? x berserker)

Inigo x Nah (physical x hero?)

(Dang Nintendo direct and Fire Emblem:if announcement has got me addicted to this again!)

Edited January 18, 2015 by ckc22

[Alastor15243]

Less sure about:

Laurent x Noire (magical?)

Kjelle x Yarne (??? x berserker)

Inigo x Nah (physical x hero?)

Laurent x Noire should work fine as Sage and Dark Flier respectively. If you try a no brave run later you can even try Sage x Trickster, Noire's got really good stats for that and tricksters are extremely useful on no brave runs for taking down Thronie.

Kjelle x Yarne should work fine. Probably hero and berserker.

Those work well enough, but be warned if you haven't already done that pairing that a lot of people, myself included, find Inigo x Nah to be the worst support set in the entire game. They work fine together as a pair, but that S rank is pretty horrifying and distasteful, to the point that many people prefer to keep those two apart whenever possible. I too generally make sure to avoid it at all costs, and generally pair Nah with MaMorgan, Owain or Brady. As I've never done it before I can't really offer any suggestions.

Edited January 18, 2015 by Alastor15243

[ckc22]

Eh.... personally I find any support that includes Nowi or Nah to be a little distasteful and I have no affection for loli stuff, so I don't care so much about the actual support convo; I'll probably end up skipping it anyway. I was pairing them cause Vaike!Nah is hard support physical, and Fred!Inigo was my only physical galeboy.

[Alastor15243]

Eh.... personally I find any support that includes Nowi or Nah to be a little distasteful and I have no affection for loli stuff, so I don't care so much about the actual support convo; I'll probably end up skipping it anyway. I was pairing them cause Vaike!Nah is hard support physical, and Fred!Inigo was my only physical galeboy.

Oh it's not that kind of distasteful. Nah acts creepily out of character and becomes disturbingly abusive. She elects herself as Inigo's chaperone-for-life and essentially tells him "Marry me or I'll eat you alive." Inigo actually explicitly says in their B support that he's not interested in her and never says anything to indicate he's changed his mind about it by the S support, so it's essentially forced marriage.

Edited January 18, 2015 by Alastor15243

[Diabeasty]

Henry!Nah has much better class selection than Vaike!Nah, in my opinion. The only thing Vaike!Nah has over Henry!Nah is raw power with the ability to run axefaire general, Hero is an okay support class but there are just better options. Henry!Nah gets Valkyrie, which is in my opinion much better than either option especially considering Inigo is the only galeboy that can be physically inclined. If you use Vaike!Nah as a hero to support a magical galeboy, well Henry!Nah would pretty much just be better. If you're using a General Vaike!Nah, Nah is effectively locked to Inigo. Vengeance isn't a bad proc at all when you're using brave weapons, and if you aren't Nah doesn't ever need to be in the front anyway. Henry!Nah is a ton more flexible than Vaike!Nah is, and really that's the big reason why I prefer it.

Stahl!Gerome trades the +SPD pair-up and a little power for a lot of accuracy. Hero Lon'qu Severa with AS+2 reaches 75 spd without a +SPD pair-up. I see no issue here. You're only really losing out on the MOV and a little STR. Swords are better than Lances for Apotheosis as well. I would say it's basically a sidegrade to Wyvern Lord Severa. If you want 100% DS I believe the pair can even reach that with Severa as an assassin and Gerome as a Sniper sporting skl+2 and as+2. Yarne losing out on 2 str going from Stahl to Virion is extremely negligible. Is Stahl a better father for Yarne? Probably. But honestly, Gerome needs him way more and being forced to use Vaike!Nah just puts an unecessary strain on teambuilding to me.

I like marrying Laurent to either Cynthia or Morgan. Cynthia and Morgan are both capable of switching between physical and magical sets at will, and Laurent can run very solid support sets for either side.

Edited January 18, 2015 by Diabeasty

[ckc22]

Henry!Nah has much better class selection than Vaike!Nah, in my opinion. The only thing Vaike!Nah has over Henry!Nah is raw power with the ability to run axefaire general, Hero is an okay support class but there are just better options. Henry!Nah gets Valkyrie, which is in my opinion much better than either option especially considering Inigo is the only galeboy that can be physically inclined. If you use Vaike!Nah as a hero to support a magical galeboy, well Henry!Nah would pretty much just be better. If you're using a General Vaike!Nah, Nah is effectively locked to Inigo. Vengeance isn't a bad proc at all when you're using brave weapons, and if you aren't Nah doesn't ever need to be in the front anyway. Henry!Nah is a ton more flexible than Vaike!Nah is, and really that's the big reason why I prefer it.

Respectfully, I'm not sure that henry!nah's class selection matters - the promoted classes she gains are Assassin, Trickster, Valkyrie, War Cleric, and Sorcerer. The only one she might ever use is Assassin (which she also gets from Vaike). Valkyrie is outclassed in basically every way by Sage, which she has default access to.

[Cat1803]

Respectfully, I'm not sure that henry!nah's class selection matters - the promoted classes she gains are Assassin, Trickster, Valkyrie, War Cleric, and Sorcerer. The only one she might ever use is Assassin (which she also gets from Vaike). Valkyrie is outclassed in basically every way by Sage, which she has default access to.

Valkyrie is notable for giving +Spd on a pairup, which Sage doesn't do. This gives Valkyrie a nice support niche in Apo, even if it's otherwise outclassed by Sage. Henry!Nah's Dark Mage also gives her Anathema, if auras are your thing. Henry!Nah also has even Str/Mag which gives her more versatility (she can run AF Hero like Vaike/Gregor!Nah, TF Valkyrie, etc).

EDIT: Whoops Henry!Nah doesn't get Hero. As Diabeasty added below, she can still make good use of Henry's AF, though.

Edited January 18, 2015 by Cat1803

[Diabeasty]

Valkyrie is notable for giving +Spd on a pairup, which Sage doesn't do. This gives Valkyrie a nice support niche in Apo, even if it's otherwise outclassed by Sage. Henry!Nah's Dark Mage also gives her Anathema, if auras are your thing. Henry!Nah also has even Str/Mag which gives her more versatility (she can run AF Hero like Vaike/Gregor!Nah, TF Valkyrie, etc).

Pretty much this. Valkyrie is actually very very nice, you use it for the same reason you use Dark Flier as an end class. However she doesn't get hero access, but she can be an axefaire Wyvern Lord which is pretty decent. Her skillset is absolutely excellent for a support.

[Cat1803]

Pretty much this. Valkyrie is actually very very nice, you use it for the same reason you use Dark Flier as an end class. However she doesn't get hero access, but she can be an axefaire Wyvern Lord which is pretty decent. Her skillset is absolutely excellent for a support.

Derped on Hero, my bad. I must've been temporarily thinking of Gerome, who was Henry's child in my last run.

[Ownagepuffs]

Personally I'd disagree with this assessment. The original quoted lineup is what I'd go with, and Stahl!Gerome is kinda overrated, especially when paired with Lon'qu!Severa.

First off, one of the biggest appeals of Lon'qu!Severa and Virion!Severa is that she's capable of, with a speed boosting support like Berserker, reaching 75 speed as a wyvern lord. Stripping Gerome of his capacity to play a viable berserker and then saddling Severa with him seems like shooting yourself in the foot.

Plus, really, Luna is the superior proc, so replacing a Luna dad with a vengeance dad for Nah really isn't doing her any favors. Henry's WAY better applied as Gerome's father so he can be a berserker.

If you're mentioning 75 Spd, then DLC is enabled.

With DLC enabled, Stahl!Gerome's partner doesn't need 75 Spd. The highest defense enemy in the game, Wave 2 Sniper Boss, can't take his hits.

Yes, Stahl!Gerome is fucking amazing.

Edited January 18, 2015 by Ownagepuffs