PAIRINGS The Pairing Thread

[JediZelda]

Yes but there are some things that just plain don't work nearly as well without a galepair, like, say, a galeforce-using General. Generals work way better if their partner is a galeforce using paladin. Plus, female hard supports are generally not that good in any mode where you're allowed to use aggressor. If you're using brave weapons, the extra "aggressor in back" damage is overkill, and if you're not, there is no extra damage from putting aggressor in back unless your front attacks are getting halved by pavgis, which generally shouldn't be happening if you've set your team up properly and have dispatched your units to the right places. So now you're left with a unit who's probably not as well optimized for being up front as your other units or even her husband, and doesn't even get the pair a third attack to make up for it, so really, you might as well just have her husband attack twice.

Donnel!Noire DOES suck though, but I'm personally considering running a non-galeforce noire not as a hard support, but as a staffbot, if I ever use Gaius!Kjelle. Generally on challenge runs you need multiple of them and there's not a lot of space if you're using all children, Chrom and his wife, and four rally bots like I do.

Okay, but who's going to be a Galeforce using General out of the pairings that are already mentioned? Gaius!Kjelle, perhaps? Obviously this is a personal opinion, but I'd prefer her as a Wyvern Lord or a Paladin so she can hit the 75 speed with the right skills and pair up. Though maybe Sumia!Lucina or Cynthia could give it a go?

From my understanding, Galeforceless Noire and Nah aren't really used strictly as hard supports. Their Galeforce husband takes a turn, his Galeforce is activated, and then Noire/Nah attacks and ends the turn up front, so on the Enemy phase the husband is in the back. Having the aggressor in the back may be overkill, but I thought that's what optimizing was about? If not being able to attack three times bothers someone that much, then that's fine. We all end up at the same place at the end of the map anyway. In this case with the pairings already mentioned, Noire is not ruined if she does not have Galeforce. That's all I'm really trying to say.

With that being said though, having Donnel as her father won't ruin Noire either. Just a matter of personal preference. Too bad Gaius can't be cloned so he can father both Noire and Kjelle.

Edited June 21, 2015 by JediZelda

[Admiral "Bull" Halsey]

Just for the sake of argument, I'm just gonna go off on a limb to say that not every unit has to have Galeforce as a staple. Yes Galeforce is a magnificent skill and whatnot, but there's certain units that could potentially benefit without the need.

Edited June 21, 2015 by Formerly Colm

[Vascela]

To say a character "needs" something is somewhat of a blind statement. The more you learn, the more you see that a lot of stuff doesn't matter or that some skills like galeforce should be omitted for an "on paper weaker" skill such as defender or skill +2. And those skills might happen to be the beginning of a new strat you previously couldn't do because galeforce was eating a skillslot.

[Alastor15243]

Having the aggressor in the back may be overkill, but I thought that's what optimizing was about?

The point is that the statement "It's important to have the male units in back as frequently as possible" is almost never true. It's not important in no-holds-barred runs because it's overkill, it's not important in no-brave runs because it doesn't actually do anything, and it's not important in no DLC runs because the skill in question is banned. The only situations in which that statement is true are challenge runs that only ban limit breaker and/or rallies but not other DLC stuff or brave weapons.

Therefore, the real goal regarding female hard supports is to make sure their partners are either the best frontal attackers or the worst rear attackers of the boys in your party, the ones who benefit the most from always being in front and having a hard support partner.

Edited June 21, 2015 by Alastor15243

[Vascela]

Currently in Wave 3 calcs for no braves/no dlc 100%, and I'm wondering what you meant by a much more diverse weapon viability? I suppose I'm using non-Celica tomes, but the list is pretty small.

Valflame, Rexcalibur, Forsetti, and Bolganone (which is used once and I pitch it after wave 0) are the only new additions I'm seeing (as Long Bows/Double Bow are in most, if not all runs). What others were you using?

[Alastor15243]

Currently in Wave 3 calcs for no braves/no dlc 100%, and I'm wondering what you meant by a much more diverse weapon viability? I suppose I'm using non-Celica tomes, but the list is pretty small.

Valflame, Rexcalibur, Forsetti, and Bolganone (which is used once and I pitch it after wave 0) are the only new additions I'm seeing (as Long Bows/Double Bow are in most, if not all runs). What others were you using?

Ranged physical weapons (spears, tomahawks, ragnell, gradivus, helswath), levin swords, bolt axes, hector's axe, alm's blade, mjolnir and Mystletainn for 100% DS builds, Yewfelle for your slower archers, balmung for your slower sword wielders... there's a lot of interesting stuff you can do.

[Admiral "Bull" Halsey]

Currently in Wave 3 calcs for no braves/no dlc 100%, and I'm wondering what you meant by a much more diverse weapon viability? I suppose I'm using non-Celica tomes, but the list is pretty small.

Does this include Eirika's Blade and Waste as well? o3o

[Vascela]

No, I'm only using Valflame, Rexcalibur, Forsetti, Bolganone, Long Bow, and Double Bow [obligatory rescue staff as well]. I might add Thoron, but I don't think it's necessary, as Rexcalibur seems to be the bulk buy and Bolganone was a one-shot use. I don't even think I have to Hammerne Valflame.

I also don't know what physical weapons I'll need for Wave 0 on the clerics (the only calc I skipped so far). Finishing up 3 today, I might start wave 4 tonight, maybe not. I think I might have a turn by turn done by tomorrow. Then it's the grind to actually get my team of 20 (so aka 2 years before the real run happens BibleCry). This has been much more work than no rally/no dlc 100%.

[Alastor15243]

No, I'm only using Valflame, Rexcalibur, Forsetti, Bolganone, Long Bow, and Double Bow [obligatory rescue staff as well]. I might add Thoron, but I don't think it's necessary, as Rexcalibur seems to be the bulk buy and Bolganone was a one-shot use. I don't even think I have to Hammerne Valflame.

I also don't know what physical weapons I'll need for Wave 0 on the clerics (the only calc I skipped so far). Finishing up 3 today, I might start wave 4 tonight, maybe not. I think I might have a turn by turn done by tomorrow. Then it's the grind to actually get my team of 20 (so aka 2 years before the real run happens BibleCry). This has been much more work than no rally/no dlc 100%.

So wait, is intentionally limiting your weapon choices part of the challenge? Because restricting yourself to aegis-affected weapons is generally not a very good idea. Having an even assortment of physical and magical pavise and aegis users is important when you're doing no-braves.

[Vascela]

No, it's just I'm V/Ving with Sage x Sage and the only physical attackers I'm using is Sniper (which hits Aegis). I tried sampling some gimmicks like General Lucina with a Hammer or Bow Knight with Armor Slayer in an Wave 0, but it just didn't work out. It'd be nice to have physical, but from what I'm conjuring up, it's just not good enough for my purposes.

[Admiral "Bull" Halsey]

I would have suggested a forged-Noble Raiper if its Sumia!Lucina Great Lord, though its been a while since I've used this set... I'm not sure if it's effective...

[Alastor15243]

No, it's just I'm V/Ving with Sage x Sage and the only physical attackers I'm using is Sniper (which hits Aegis). I tried sampling some gimmicks like General Lucina with a Hammer or Bow Knight with Armor Slayer in an Wave 0, but it just didn't work out. It'd be nice to have physical, but from what I'm conjuring up, it's just not good enough for my purposes.

I've never done V/Ving, it seems like a really boring way to play so I've never bothered with it. No DLC and no brave weapons sounds pretty damned hard, but I'm still building my no DLC team file so I haven't really seen how hard no DLC is.

[Vascela]

V/V isn't for everybody, but it's hella fun for me. I like being able to have my notepad document and go line from line knowing exactly what I can/can't do and what I can expect. I look at Airship's average damage chart and wonder how can he possibly work with that when that number never shows up during the actual run.

Proc stacking and 99% dual strikes might be what's fun for someone or that just setting up 1 HP is a waste of time and you want to be full power on turn 1. But that style isn't for me.

[JediZelda]

The point is that the statement "It's important to have the male units in back as frequently as possible" is almost never true. It's not important in no-holds-barred runs because it's overkill, it's not important in no-brave runs because it doesn't actually do anything, and it's not important in no DLC runs because the skill in question is banned. The only situations in which that statement is true are challenge runs that only ban limit breaker and/or rallies but not other DLC stuff or brave weapons.

Therefore, the real goal regarding female hard supports is to make sure their partners are either the best frontal attackers or the worst rear attackers of the boys in your party, the ones who benefit the most from always being in front and having a hard support partner.

I'm don't think I agree with the "it's bad because it's overkill" because if you want to nitpick, a lot of things normally done for Apotheosis would be overkill. Why talk about making the children the best versions of themselves since it's overkill? Why have Limit Breaker since many consider it to be overkill? Why maximize for Galeforce since it will be overkill? Why have Brave Weapons? I don't understand dismissing keeping the male in the back with a non Galeforce wife simply because you say it's overkill.

[Admiral "Bull" Halsey]

I...I don't get it...how can Galeforce be an 'overkill' for Apotheosis...? ?_?

[Vascela]

I find Galeforce is not really overkill. It's a top of the line luxury skill. It doesn't help you win fights like vengeance (or other procs); it doesn't let you do enemy turn shenanigans (vantage) or even do extra damage (mag +2 to tomefaire). But it does help crunch turns in wave 4/5. It does reduce the number of combat units you need in a 3 or 5 enemy pool. It's strong, but I wouldn't call it "overkill."

Benchmarks > "Overkill" > Not knowing what you're doing.

[JediZelda]

It figures everyone would center in on the "Galeforce is overkill" example rather than the point I was trying to make, which is this: saying that something is "overkill" doesn't make it something to be permanently avoided. Some people like stomping Apotheosis flat. Some like to make it more of a challenge. Neither way is wrong. Dismissing something (like having the husband in the back of a pair up) because you think it's overkill is where I disagree.

Edited June 22, 2015 by JediZelda

[Alastor15243]

I'm don't think I agree with the "it's bad because it's overkill" because if you want to nitpick, a lot of things normally done for Apotheosis would be overkill. Why talk about making the children the best versions of themselves since it's overkill? Why have Limit Breaker since many consider it to be overkill? Why maximize for Galeforce since it will be overkill? Why have Brave Weapons? I don't understand dismissing keeping the male in the back with a non Galeforce wife simply because you say it's overkill.

I say that it's overkill solely to point out that it's never going to make a difference between you killing and not killing the target. The only time it even increases your damage output at all is when you're using weapons that will obliterate anything without handicaps. When not using brave weapons, it makes no difference, and when not using DLC, it becomes a question of who has more raw attack power in general. Therefore, unless you are doing a challenge run that is specifically no rallies or no limit breaker, putting aggressor in back will pretty much never make the difference between a successful kill and a failed one.

And my point is that the central appeal of using female hard supports in front, that they get a single round where aggressor is in the back, is nonsense. Female hard supports only want to waste skill slots on procs when they either are in a no LB/no Rally challenge bode, have no other skills they could put on instead, or when they have something like improved movement or longbow access or access to different shield type weapons, something that would make them able to do something their boyfriend can't do. Otherwise, there's no good reason to not just focus entirely on hard support skills and have their husband be in front all the time.

Edited June 22, 2015 by Alastor15243

[Admiral "Bull" Halsey]

So does this mean that units like Say'ri and Emmeryn are an example of 'overkill' since they can get Galeforce? Sorry, but I failed to see the logic of this...

Edited June 22, 2015 by Formerly Colm

[JediZelda]

snip

Okay, you're saying it's not a good idea to make a female hard support, but then you want to force a Galeforceless girl to be so because it's overkill to have her do anything else. I think I'm just going to agree to disagree here, since this is just going in circles.

On a different note...has anyone wanted to waste a Galeforce badly enough to try Gaius!Severa? I'm trying to come up with a team with pairings I have not done before. I've already used most of Severa's viable fathers in previous playthroughs. I was wondering what she was like. What about Lon'qu!Noire?

[Admiral "Bull" Halsey]

tl;dr: If you wanna have a Galeforce on Noire, try Gaius!Noire instead. Its probably one of the better choices (at least to me).

Edited June 22, 2015 by Formerly Colm

[Alastor15243]

Okay, you're saying it's not a good idea to make a female hard support, but then you want to force a Galeforceless girl to be so because it's overkill to have her do anything else. I think I'm just going to agree to disagree here, since this is just going in circles.

To clarify, I mean that they're rarely useful, not that they're never useful. They are genuinely useful if you have a male unit who's great in front but horrible in back, or at least wants more firepower than a galegirl can give because she has procs and galeforce filling her skill list. This, rather fittingly considering the popularity of their supports, means Nah is most useful, in my opinion, on a male Morgan. However, it's very rare that you need more than one. Granted, Donnel!Noire does suck, as I've said, but I feel she can be salvaged enough to make the use of galeforce worthwhile, especially if you give her armsthrift and the astra bow so she can properly procstack. At any rate, I consider Gaius!Noire and Gaius!Kjelle to be equal in utility, while Donnel!Kjelle is definitely superior to Donnel!Noire, so I pretty much always go with Gaius!Noire and Donnel!Kjelle.

On a different note...has anyone wanted to waste a Galeforce badly enough to try Gaius!Severa? I'm trying to come up with a team with pairings I have not done before. I've already used most of Severa's viable fathers in previous playthroughs. I was wondering what she was like. What about Lon'qu!Noire?

Gaius!Severa isn't really that good. Severa can get high speed from no fewer than two other fathers, she doesn't get many classes to abuse her high speed on, and a lunaless Severa will never use Astra.

[Vascela]

I know that Lon'qu!Noire!Morgan has mods to v/v no dlc/no rally 100% Apo. Excluding Morgan (as if that first statement I made was even close to answering your question...)

I think she would be successful even if you didn't build around v/v. Vantage can be abused at 1 hp, but it call also be used at 20 HP. Or even 30. Or even if you don't have vengeance. You can throw on simple stables (hex, anathema, proc of choice, hit rate +20). You could also do some pre-math to see if you'd rather run a breaker over hit rate +20. Same goes for running DuSu+ if her partner has low hit (hit rate +5 can go a long way). You have options in physical and magical, but it's no big deal if you don't have tomefaire (Sorc is really close to Sage in caps for Mag), but she isn't locked out of Sniper (or Bow Knight if that floats your boat). You could even run around with mov+1 and deliver if you knew that the math from str+2 was meaningless (if you were thinking about it).

And that's excluding LB, you can always throw that on someone. As far as Severa goes, I always throw in a pitch for Ricken!Severa, but I can see Gaius!Severa performing I'm guessing you really want to run vantage on Severa (skipping Lon'qu and Stahl because I bet you already did those based off your last comment). Be it v/v or just vantage, it might be something you just want.

[JediZelda]

Gaius!Severa isn't really that good. Severa can get high speed from no fewer than two other fathers, she doesn't get many classes to abuse her high speed on, and a lunaless Severa will never use Astra.

If you're referring to Lon'qu and Virion, they've already fathered Severa on previous playthroughs.

If Gaius isn't great, my best options seem to be Vaike ( who will likely be used elsewhere) or a +Spd-Def Avatar. On the other hand, Cynthia's only options are Gaius, Avatar, or non existance. Why do you have to be so picky, Sumia?

Edit: Severa's previous fathers were Ricken, Stahl, Lon'qu and Virion.

Edited June 22, 2015 by JediZelda

[Admiral "Bull" Halsey]

There's also Gregor!Severa as well since Gregor can pass down Myrmidon set (which I've frequently use on my main save).