PAIRINGS The Pairing Thread

[BANRYU]

I know Brady is probably best as pure magic, but back in my first playthrough I had the crazy idea to have Vaike father him and make him into a War Monk with like, Axefaire/Galeforce/Renewal/Healtouch/one other thing, probably Counter/Lifetaker/Luna/Defender or something.

Is that at all viable for the more intense difficulties? Probably not Apotheosis-level, but maybe like the Pegusisters DLC maps or something? Has anyone else ever tried something like this?

[Czar_Yoshi]

If you're going to make Brady physical, go Hero, Warrior or Berserker, not Monk. Healtouch has no place on offensive units, swap it for LB (and swap Renewal for Sol if you want self healing and Luna otherwise).

Anything is viable in Awakening to an extend due to high caps and potential for customization/grinding, but I wouldn't rank physical Brady anywhere near the top of the list, both because his mods are so against it, because magic is better than physical, and because if you want to scramble to make a magic boy be physical it should be Owain and his Sword Hand.

[Emerald Ink]

I know general consensus is that Gaius' best wives are Tharja, Nowi, and Sully, but frankly, I don't much care for any of those kids as non-support units (except Kjelle, but Donny or Vaike seems to be better for her for that), which makes Galeforce on Noire or Nah kind of moot. Are there any other kids he makes a particularly useful dad for?

Also, I know Virion is kind of a "throwaway" dad, but how would Virion!Inigo work out? If you're not marrying Olivia to Chrom, I imagine giving him Virion as a dad would make Inigo quite the useful skill monkey, though probably he only useful skill he'd inherit is Lifetaker.

[tuvarkz]

Henry, Libra, Ricken, Stahl and even Vaike would still be better parents than Virion.

[BANRYU]

Who are the best wives considered to be for a male MU? (current asset/flaw is Skill/Luck, but is negotiable as well)

Do any of the kids of the already-mothers particularly suffer from being fathered by MU? etc.

[Roivann]

Who are the best wives considered to be for a male MU? (current asset/flaw is Skill/Luck, but is negotiable as well)

Do any of the kids of the already-mothers particularly suffer from being fathered by MU? etc.

Nobody really suffers from being fathered by the Avatar (in fact, they all benefit from it), but generally speaking, MU should marry someone who already has a child of their own. This basically allows for two Morgans instead of one. Other than that, a +MAG male Avatar can marry Emmeryn to give Morgan a large magic boost, beaten only by Ricken!Laurent!Morgan, which even then only beats Emm!Morgan by 1 point of MAG. As for your +SKL Avatar, then Say'ri (I think), Cordelia, Sully, Sumia all give +2 SKL mods.

[Airship Canon]

Who are the best wives considered to be for a male MU? (current asset/flaw is Skill/Luck, but is negotiable as well)

Do any of the kids of the already-mothers particularly suffer from being fathered by MU? etc.

Gonna assume Postgame here:

Gen 2 Galeforce user > Gen 1 Child Bearer without Galeforce, who Has a Daughter > Gen 1 Non-Child Bearer with Galeforce > Non-Child Bearer Lacking Galeforce = Gen 1 Child bearer who lacks Galeforce but has a Son

Reasoning is, provided it's actually used, the full salvo of second gen marriages is just better than not. The only way to have them all wed is MU, and it's a fair waste to not have MU with a galeforcer. Following that, improving a child [particularly Nah] is better than not, but having MU in a usuable position is better than... not. [Tiki, Anna, Flavia have a solid argument for position for "Worst wife for MaMU".]

As for a more particular list:

Lucina is sorta in a tier of her own, offering Aether to Morgan, in addition to [typically] having Galeforce. She also bears Dual Strike+ which sets her as more desirable than Chrom!Cynthia. [in a particular note, Lucina!Morgan benefits exceptionally well from Skill asset]

Below her would... be Chrom!Cynthia.

Followed by the whole lot of the second gen girls, provided they get Galeforce.

Then there's Nowi. Nowi is awful as a wife, and basically damns MU to the bench by blowing his S-support, but hands down, has the best use of MU's inheritance.

Tharja and Sully are about the same.

After that the priority is pretty simple to follow.

Nobody really suffers from being fathered by the Avatar (in fact, they all benefit from it), but generally speaking, MU should marry someone who already has a child of their own. This basically allows for two Morgans instead of one. Other than that, a +MAG male Avatar can marry Emmeryn to give Morgan a large magic boost, beaten only by Ricken!Laurent!Morgan, which even then only beats Emm!Morgan by 1 point of MAG. As for your +SKL Avatar, then Say'ri (I think), Cordelia, Sully, Sumia all give +2 SKL mods.

Fallacious logic, and your post ignored the second gen. 1 outperforms 2 when you account for what matters.

Here's the rundown:

7:2,6:3. Those are the maximum combinations of Galeforce S-ranks [in the format of "total pairs:pairs with both units having galeforce"]

With MU/1st: It's locked to 6:3.

With MU/2nd: It can go either way. [You'll have a stronger Morgan taking this route].

Galeforce 1st Gens typically remain what they are.

With a 6:3 arrangement [possible with both]:

3 pairs with single, 3 pairs with double.

3 x 2 + 3 x 3:

6 + 9

15 Actions [typically kills] Per Turn possible.

With 7:2 [Not possible with MU/1st]:

5 pairs with single, 2 pairs with double:

5 x 2 + 2 x 3:

10 + 6

16 Actions Per Turn.

Now while deployment slots may make 6:3 a bit more desirable than 7:2, 7:2 is a better arrangement provided it doesn't wall at that. But either way, Morgan is better off with a second gen parent.

Edited March 11, 2014 by Airship Canon

[Czar_Yoshi]

Here's the rundown:

7:2,6:3. Those are the maximum combinations of Galeforce S-ranks [in the format of "total pairs:pairs with both units having galeforce"]

Of note, that's only true for Avatar-M. Avatar-F can do 7:3 or 6:4 if marrying second gen.

[tuvarkz]

Gonna assume Postgame here:

Gen 2 Galeforce user > Gen 1 Child Bearer without Galeforce, who Has a Daughter > Gen 1 Non-Child Bearer with Galeforce > Non-Child Bearer Lacking Galeforce = Gen 1 Child bearer who lacks Galeforce but has a Son

Last part should be changed for GF-less Son bearer>non-child bearer w/o galeforce. It's much better to have Gerome/Laurent/Yarne with full class access and big modifiers (Especially given that MU can easily give a +4 stat cap on STR or MAG) alongside Morgan than just Morgan.

[Czar_Yoshi]

Well...

A typical Berserker kit is LB/Agg/Axefaire/All+2/Str+2 or Swordbreaker. Gerome can get Berserker from Vaike, and Yarne already has it. Gerome also already has Str+2 and Swordbreaker, and Yarne can get one (or both from Fred). Axefaire comes with Berserker. Agg/LB and All+2 are free.

Mods? Gerome loses 1 Str with Vaike (.5 damage per swing in Apo) and Yarne loses 1 (with Fred). Considering as they're already overkill for killing anything as is, even with minimal help from the lead unit, that's not a standout contribution.

Laurent works well as a support Sage, and he comes with LB, Agg, Tomefaire, Anathema, and one of DS+ or Hex. He has more to gain from Avatar modwise because Libra and Ricken are in high demand and a long way off from giving +4 Mag, but Laurent only needs one more skill and the only thing Avatar has to offer that stands out from other fathers is Solidarity, which stacks nicely with Anathema and a +crit forge on the lead unit.

So while none of them are worse, they're all intangibly better- as in, it won't make a difference. Hence why they're lumped in with those without children or Galeforce.

Edited March 11, 2014 by Czar_Yoshi

[Airship Canon]

Of note, that's only true for Avatar-M. Avatar-F can do 7:3 or 6:4 if marrying second gen.

The question specified Male MU.

In case of Female MU, the priority is different, since extra galeforce.

And... that'd be:

2nd Gen Guy > 1st Gen Guy who's not Chrom > Chrom

[Reasoning: 7:3 might outperform 6:4 [see deployment slots], stronger Morgan.

Chrom literally produces the worst Morgan, and Lucina benefits some of the least from MU inheritance- she's right there with Cynthia, Brady, and the Gale-lacking Boy Trio for "Benefits from MU inheritance".]

As far as the big mods goes, Non-Child Bearer w/o galeforce also includes some second gens.

Kellam!Nah and Ricken!Noire are both in that category- to which they're notable, K!N!M being an overkill DEF brick with 99+ DEF [and yes, 69 SPD, so she gets doubled by nothing and doubles everything but 3 targets], and R!N!M being the F!Morgan equivalent of R!L!M.

Frankly, there's a pretty null gain on the Gale-lacking sons getting MU inheritance- just as running those things has.

[MelonGx]

(This post has been deleted because of leaving topic)

Edited March 12, 2014 by MelonGx

[Emerald Ink]

Henry, Libra, Ricken, Stahl and even Vaike would still be better parents than Virion.

Why, though? I mean, yeah, he gives crap for classes, but Inigo kinda gets just about everything he wants regarding classes from his mom, and the only skill he needs that from her that he can't get otherwise is Galeforce. Inigo's best stats - for me, anyway - tend to be his Skill and Speed, and Virion's easily the most Skill-focused out of all those dads, since Henry, Libra, and Ricken are all in demand from more magic-focused parents and Stahl and Vaike aren't particularly skillful.

In a completely separate line of thought - how well would Gaius!Yarne work? I really want to make Yarne good, and since I don't really care for Nah or Noire in leading roles (making Galeforce moot) and Kjelle frankly does better with Donny or Vaike, Gaius is left single. If Virion really is that bad of a dad, then I suppose Gaius!Inigo could work, but since Gaius and Olivia share a lot of classes that doesn't leave Inigo much in the way of variety. I guess Gaius!Cynthia isn't terrible, but I'm pretty sure Cynthia likes to have Henry for a dad if she doesn't get Chrom.

So...yeah, are there any other viable wives for Gaius besides Nowi, Tharja, Sully, or Sumia? And who's the most useful dad for Yarne?

[Czar_Yoshi]

Inigo needs an offensive proc not named Astra, something Virion does not have to offer.

[Emerald Ink]

Inigo needs an offensive proc not named Astra, something Virion does not have to offer.

What, like Luna? The only other ones I could think of that he'd like are Swordfaire and Vantage, both of which he'll get from Olivia's classes.

[Airship Canon]

No clue why you'd opt for Noire to not be a lead, since hard supports aren't that great for anything but well, Hard Supporting. You're intentionally cutting back your potential by wasting that.

What, like Luna? The only other ones I could think of that he'd like are Swordfaire and Vantage, both of which he'll get from Olivia's classes.

Procs =/= Faires

Procs or Actives [sometimes called Masteries because that's what they were called in FE10] are in-combat actived skills.

Lethality, Aether, Astra, Sol, Luna, Ignis, Vengeance, and Luna+ are the attack actives/procs.

Aegis, Aegis+, Pavise, Pavise+, and Miracle are the defensive procs

In particular:

Inigo needs Luna or Vengeance.

[MelonGx]

All the optimal things are discussed for Apotheosis, which is normally based on Galeforce + Luna/Vengeance + 90~100% Dual Strike combinations.

Other stages don't need such a combination because the enemies are not strong enough to optimize in-game units.

So, as the same point #838 and #840 said, in-game units are required to complete a Galeforce + Luna/Vengeance skill combo, unless you don't play Apotheosis.

P.S.

1) There're also some alternative strategies for this stage, such as Vantage + Vengeance + 100% Dual Strike tanking Enemy Phase, but they can't be independent without other Galeforce+Luna/Vengeance units' help to cover the strategies themselves's weakness.

2) Astra can't take place of Luna/Vengeance because of its poor activate rate (up to 35~40% after fully rallied & Limit Breaker equipped, while Luna is 70~80%, Vengeance is 100%).

Edited March 12, 2014 by MelonGx

[tuvarkz]

No need to go fully optimal actually, as long as you don't f*up every single pairing and do some intelligent ones, you should be able to clear both normal and secret routes. Woops, misread a word there. Also, Luna/Astra and Ignis/Astra do a good amount of damage as dual proc setups.

Edited March 12, 2014 by tuvarkz

[Czar_Yoshi]

There're also some alternative strategies for this stage, such as Vantage + Vengeance + 100% Dual Strike tanking Enemy Phase, but they can't be independent without other Galeforce+Luna/Vengeance units' help to cover the strategies themselves's weakness.

No, I'm pretty sure Secret Apo has been cleared several times before using only one offensive pair.

No need to go fully optimal actually, as long as you don't f*up every single pairing and do some intelligent ones, you should be able to clear both normal and secret routes.

Secret can be cleared with only gen 1 units, only A rank supports and any asset/flaw (or no Avatar) so killing all your characters is really the only way to completely mess up your ability to clear Apo. Even then, it's probably possible to clear it with only Chrom and spotpass units (though I haven't tried myself) so even that couldn't stop you if you knew what you were doing.

That said, having even one optimal pairing helps a lot.

Edited March 12, 2014 by Czar_Yoshi

[Emerald Ink]

No clue why you'd opt for Noire to not be a lead, since hard supports aren't that great for anything but well, Hard Supporting. You're intentionally cutting back your potential by wasting that.

Procs =/= Faires

Procs or Actives [sometimes called Masteries because that's what they were called in FE10] are in-combat actived skills.

Lethality, Aether, Astra, Sol, Luna, Ignis, Vengeance, and Luna+ are the attack actives/procs.

Aegis, Aegis+, Pavise, Pavise+, and Miracle are the defensive procs

In particular:

Inigo needs Luna or Vengeance.

Ohh, I see. Sorry for the noob questions.

I don't really care for Noire as a lead because her HP, Defense, and Resistance are always super low for me, so she has a hard time taking hits and I know dodginess isn't as useful on higher difficulties or against other teams. I dunno, she's always worked better for me in the secondary position as essentially backup offense where her low defenses won't mean anything. Inigo often works best for me in a similar manner - hence why I thought giving him Virion as a dad might work. But maybe this is just me getting screwed by the RNG when it comes to levels, I dunno. Even if I were to switch her to a lead spot, I get the feeling she'd probably be better off with Donny as her dad, since it doesn't seem like he'd nerf her magic quite as hard as Gaius does and he still gives her Counter and access to Galeforce.

I'll be sure to keep those terms in mind. Thanks for being patient.

All the optimal things are discussed for Apotheosis, which is normally based on Galeforce + Luna/Vengeance + 90~100% Dual Strike combinations.

Other stages don't need such a combination because the enemies are not strong enough to optimize in-game units.

So, as the same point #838 and #840 said, in-game units are required to complete a Galeforce + Luna/Vengeance skill combo, unless you don't play Apotheosis.

P.S.

1) There're also some alternative strategies for this stage, such as Vantage + Vengeance + 100% Dual Strike tanking Enemy Phase, but they can't be independent without other Galeforce+Luna/Vengeance units' help to cover the strategies themselves's weakness.

2) Astra can't take place of Luna/Vengeance because of its poor activate rate (up to 35~40% after fully rallied & Limit Breaker equipped, while Luna is 70~80%, Vengeance is 100%).

I don't have access to Apotheosis just yet (though I want to get it eventually), but I'm looking at trying to build a semi-serious streetpass team when I eventually try a Lunatic run.

[Airship Canon]

All the optimal things are discussed for Apotheosis, which is normally based on Galeforce + Luna/Vengeance + 90~100% Dual Strike combinations.

Other stages don't need such a combination because the enemies are not strong enough to optimize in-game units.

So, as the same point #838 and #840 said, in-game units are required to complete a Galeforce + Luna/Vengeance skill combo, unless you don't play Apotheosis.

P.S.

1) There're also some alternative strategies for this stage, such as Vantage + Vengeance + 100% Dual Strike tanking Enemy Phase, but they can't be independent without other Galeforce+Luna/Vengeance units' help to cover the strategies themselves's weakness.

2) Astra can't take place of Luna/Vengeance because of its poor activate rate (up to 35~40% after fully rallied & Limit Breaker equipped, while Luna is 70~80%, Vengeance is 100%).

V/V Sweeping is single pair if LB is used, and only double for 3 targets if no-DLC.

Ohh, I see. Sorry for the noob questions.

I don't really care for Noire as a lead because her HP, Defense, and Resistance are always super low for me, so she has a hard time taking hits and I know dodginess isn't as useful on higher difficulties or against other teams. I dunno, she's always worked better for me in the secondary position as essentially backup offense where her low defenses won't mean anything. Inigo often works best for me in a similar manner - hence why I thought giving him Virion as a dad might work. But maybe this is just me getting screwed by the RNG when it comes to levels, I dunno. Even if I were to switch her to a lead spot, I get the feeling she'd probably be better off with Donny as her dad, since it doesn't seem like he'd nerf her magic quite as hard as Gaius does and he still gives her Counter and access to Galeforce.

I'll be sure to keep those terms in mind. Thanks for being patient.

I don't have access to Apotheosis just yet (though I want to get it eventually), but I'm looking at trying to build a semi-serious streetpass team when I eventually try a Lunatic run.

In-game Noire doesn't exactly matter a whole lot. But she still can Nosfertank just fine. Denying her lead doesn't help you- at the very least give her Gale so she can strike- then pair her with a V/V unit like Libra!Owain or Laurent so she can hide in the back on EP.

Postgame she caps up just fine, and defensively a -6 Modifier [actually you can go as low as -10] on a Sage with another Sage [so no +DEF] as a pair up can tank any target in the game, save for the untankable [at least not reliably so] Nightmare Sniper.

She'll get 80 HP just fine, and defenses will cap up.

Gaius is more beneficial to her than Donnel because he gives her Vantage to go with her Vengeance, and Astra as a secondary proc for her natural Luna.

Also, statistically Gaius!Noire > Donnel!Noire:

Same STR, MAG, +3 Skill/Speed in favor of Gaius, +5 LCK in favor of Donnel, +2 DEF in favor of Donnel, +1 RES in favor of Gaius.

The Skill/Speed is way more important than the DEF or LCK [as again, a -6 DEF Sage can tank whatever.]

Edited March 12, 2014 by Airship Canon

[Czar_Yoshi]

I don't really care for Noire as a lead because her HP, Defense, and Resistance are always super low for me, so she has a hard time taking hits and I know dodginess isn't as useful on higher difficulties or against other teams. I dunno, she's always worked better for me in the secondary position as essentially backup offense where her low defenses won't mean anything. Inigo often works best for me in a similar manner - hence why I thought giving him Virion as a dad might work. But maybe this is just me getting screwed by the RNG when it comes to levels, I dunno. Even if I were to switch her to a lead spot, I get the feeling she'd probably be better off with Donny as her dad, since it doesn't seem like he'd nerf her magic quite as hard as Gaius does and he still gives her Counter and access to Galeforce.

If you have the resources to get all the children and a task where having all of them helps out, it's generally assumed that you grind them until all of their important stats are capped (hence "minmaxing"). Thus, growths don't matter. For ingame it's not viable to get/train all the children at once, so just save the ones that need more help (Inigo) for postgame grinding. If you do want to make Noire work ingame, reclass her to something with better HP/Def growths.

Also, offense always trumps defense in higher DLC maps and Streetpass. Would you rather kill something on player phase and escape to safety with Galeforce, or damage something and then sit around on EP eating a bunch of hits? Pairs without Galeforce generally get benched because they need a Staffbot to rescue them after every turn.

edit- Oh wow, I just got stp ninja'd twice in the last hour. Nightmare Sniper can be dropped to 0% hit, and I'm pretty sure 100% Miracle and 100% Aegis will stop him too. Though it's true that he can't be stopped with raw Def...

Edited March 12, 2014 by Czar_Yoshi

[Emerald Ink]

Ok, so moral of the story is Virion = no, Gaius!Noire = yes. Shame :/ I don't really care for the support, but that's eugenics for you.

So Noire's final skill set should be something like Galeforce, Vengence, Vantage, Luna, and Astra? I can't get Limit Breaker yet, unfortunately.

As for Inigo...I guess Frederick for his dad, if he wants Luna? I really like the sound of Stahl!Severa, and the only way I can think off the top of my head for him to get Vengeance is through Libra or Henry, and Libra!Owain and Henry!Cynthia sounds way more useful. Alternatively, I just bench him.

So going by that info...there really is no way to make Yarne useful, huh? Especially since his options as a support unit are also pretty limited.

[Czar_Yoshi]

Conversely, you're hard pressed to make Yarne bad. He comes with natural Berserker, good Str/Skl mods, and can inherit Str+2 or Swordbreaker from Panne. Berserkers are the best dedicated physical supports in the game, and Yarne is the best Berserker. Just give him someone who doesn't lower his Str (Wyvern and good Skl are nice too)- Fred works nicely but anyone will do if he's taken.

Stahl!Severa sounds good, until you realize that she's actually outclassed by Sumia who has Tomefaire to go with her Galeforce+Luna combo. She's not bad, just outclassed. Other strong Severa options include Ricken!Severa who does get Tomefaire/Luna/Galeforce (and a nice Mag mod to boot) and Lon'qu!Severa who lacks Luna but has Vantage/Vengeance and incredible mods.

That's a bit too many procs for Noire- once you get Vengeance set up, it boosts your atk by a maximum of 42, while you never see more than +35 out of Luna outside of Streetpass Manaketes. But Luna will have priority over Vengeance and trigger occasionally, lowering your damage... Vengeance is usually at 100% activation (you'll want a +Skl pairup without LB). Either swap Astra/Luna out for something else (Anathema is a good filler skill, Mov+1 might see some use on a Dark Flier, Lancefaire is viable if you want to be able to bypass Aegis/Tomebreaker), or swap out VV for more defensive skills (Counter, Pavise, Tomebreaker and DG+ come to mind) which come in handy when you're still having to take enemy phases or while training.

If you really want to use Virion, I'd go for a set of Tomefaire, Deliverer, Hex, Anathema, and DG+ on a Dark Flier/Dark Knight and act as a ferry/dedicated magical support.

[Airship Canon]

Conversely, you're hard pressed to make Yarne bad. He comes with natural Berserker, good Str/Skl mods, and can inherit Str+2 or Swordbreaker from Panne. Berserkers are the best dedicated physical supports in the game, and Yarne is the best Berserker. Just give him someone who doesn't lower his Str (Wyvern and good Skl are nice too)- Fred works nicely but anyone will do if he's taken.

'Zerker!Gerome > Yarne > Other Geromes for Physical Hard supports. No one outside of those [and maybe Nah, but she could be magical] should be doing the role in the second gen, and second gens > 1st gens for it.

Gerome has a higher base STR Mod, runs 5/6/7 on the fathers that give him zerker.

He runs DSu+ as well unless full power, something that Yarne cannot provide.

Of course, Yarne takes a definite lead if Gerome is denied 'zerker.

Yarne is unscrewable as a physical hard support: Natural 50 STR class with -faire, is a dude.

Even with a +MAG/-STR MU as a father [which is the worst possible Physical father: -3 STR Mod, which would give Yarne a 0 STR Mod], Yarne still yoinks 85 ATK as a 'zerker without any DLC used, and at full power, 109.

As a note, it takes... 103 to 4-shot Lunatic(+) Grima, 105 to 4 shot General Silverlance, 108 to 4-shot Anna, 110 to 4-shot Nightmare Sniper, 114 to 4-shot Double Zerkers, and 117 to 4-shot Thronie.

Those are the tankiest enemies in the game.

Given ANY father who doesn't bear a -3 STR mod [which is anyone besides a +[something that doesn't +STR]/-STR MU] Yarne gets Grima, General Silverlance, Anna, and the nightmare snipers.

With a +5 mod [A father with a +2 mod, like Frederick], he nails all but 1 enemy in the entire game.

...

And as far as it goes, ONLY Vaike!Gerome!Morgan can get that last guy anyway.

Edited March 12, 2014 by Airship Canon