PAIRINGS The Pairing Thread

[Czar_Yoshi]

I was talking about Aptitude in general, though what I said certainly applies to your post. Anyway your pairings are all fine, though your run type is a bit unusual so I can't -guarantee- they'll work (although you shouldn't have problems anyway unless you're playing on Lunatic+ thanks to the mere presence of DLC).

[Airship Canon]

Aptitude doesn't actually help Kjelle since she'll most likely cap her stats before getting all her skills- I prefer to pass Underdog instead. Also, passdowns don't matter at all if the child gets all of that parent's classes and you're focusing on postgame, so don't sweat most of the passdown stuff.

Well, actually Gregor!Laurent can work too- though he'll only have 95 listed Hit against the Forseti Sage thanks to needing an extra point in mt forge). Here's some math in case you do find it useful (unfortunately Barracks is required, but only in Skl).

The target is the Forseti Sage on Wave 4 (has the highest Res and highest Avo of any suitable enemy) (120 Avo, 55 Res). 109 Atk, 155 Crit and 220 Hit needed for a OHKO.

Gregor!Laurent@Sage (V/V/Wrath/Gamble/Focus) x someone@Sage (Solidarity/Anathema/DS+/filler x2)

Skl: 43(base) +7(pairup) +4(mods) +4(barracks) +2(tonic) =60

Lck: 45(base) +3(pairup) +2(tonic) =50

Hit: 115(base) +75(Wilderwind/WRB) +20(support/DS+) -5(Gamble) +10(Anathema) =215. He can get 100% too on that Sage if the support also has Hex and he gets a 1-range attack.

Crit: 30(base) +20(Wrath) +10(Gamble) +10(Focus) +10(Solidarity) +10(Anathema) +15(DS+) +50(Wilderwind) =155

Atk: 46(base) +3(mods) +9(pairup) +7(Wilderwind) +2(tonic) +42(Vengeance) =109

109-55/2*3 =81

And there's the other issues with the plan:

1. Solidarity. I've got all of 2 useful ones. (An Einherjar could theoretically be used, but would be out of the question for other areas)

2. Wilderwinds. Low Usage and they're actually fairly rare. (And obviously that build doesn't have Armsthrift)

3. Barracks Surges aren't being calculated. [Just not rolling it.]

Pushing him around that low [when I've got plenty of other issues to handle] is a hurdle in and of itself (since no fortify).

In a practical sense, Katarina's would be used (unless Sorc can fanangle it for Ruin)... and I'd be out Solidarity.

LQ!Laurent@Sage

48 Skill

+2 Tonic

+7 Pair Up

57 Skill

28 Base Critical

+15 Support

+10 Focus

+10 Gamble

+20 Wrath

+45 Katarina's Bolt

+10 Anathema

138.

That's only 83%. I can't hack that.

(Furthermore, I'm at a loss as to who to pair with him anyways. Cynthia won't have Dark Mage this round. Noire doesn't have Sage. Morgan and Robin are elsewhere. Henry!Nah?)

An Einherjar carry, maybe?

Let's see his SKL would be down 2 more.

That puts his Crit at 27 Base.

Support would only be 10 instead of 15.

Would get the Solidarity bonus, and would guarantee Anathema.

138-1-5+10

87 [92 with Wilderwind]

...Maybe roll Sorc for Ruin itself?

Drops 5 Skill in favor of 5 Crit directly.

That's 86 Crit. Still not favorable.

With the Einherjar, that's 90. 1:10 failures.

... and none of that was calculating the damage.

Certainly thought provoking.

A little point, I'd probably target Celica's Sages and the Nightmare Sniper trash for it.

Of all the trash in Apoth, those sets are the most dangerous [besides Waifukiller (SR wave 1 tomahawk 'zerker)].

Celica's Sage: 50 RES: 104 ATK to Kill with a Crit.

Required Vengeance for Kill (SagexSage, S (Nah?)): 27 Power, 54 Damage

SagexSage, - (Einherjar): 29 Power, 58 Damage

SorcererxSage, S (Nah?): 34 Power, 68 Damage

SorcererxSage, - (Einherjar): 36 Power, 72 Damage

Note on Retaliation against the Sages:

They have 70 ATK, Luna+ (and 52 Speed)

SagexSage S: 39 (base) + 2 (tonic) + 5 (Ward) + 7 (Pair Up): Laurent would take 44! Damage... Per hit. He's toast to try to retaliate.

SorcxSage S: 43 (base) +2 (tonic) +5 (Ward) +7 (Pair Up): ...Perfect alignment: 42 damage per hit. ...BUT! A Dual Guard would KILL me here [Not enough firepower!] (and since I... need the 7 RES from being paired up...)

...But... wait. That means...

The Einherjar is out of a job here. Crit chance is at most 86%.

Impressive, but, even if I ignore the big guy [i'd really just poke him down anyways]

That's only a 54.700816% success chance to tank all 4 of those guys (On just scoring the crits, not "getting dual guarded on second swing and totally screwed over by that")

...The Nightmare trash can be put into check by either.

[Czar_Yoshi]

I did some checks on Sorc, and while it needs Rally to work at 100% (no Barracks though), I think it can still hit the damage thresholds (-2 from base Mag but +4 from Ruin) and will only be 5 crit off. And remember that the S support is only for +5 Hit since DS doesn't matter here, so you could theoretically have Avatar/Morgan paired up with it at A until the end of Wave 3, then switch their skills and pair them up with their husband for 4/5. 5 doesn't have much stuff this works on anyway so it's not a big loss, though you would miss out on a few prizes in 4 (notably, it can clear the Sages and those Pavise+ Soldiers). Use an Einherjar instead and Hit might start to be bothersome, but Crit is still at 90.

Edited August 2, 2014 by Czar_Yoshi

[isetrh]

I already figured out my Apo team, but now thinking about possibilities and numbers is keeping me awake. It's 3:30 am here >.> +Mag -Def Lon'qu!Severa!Morgan as a Dark Flier could use a Sage pair-up and still hit 75 Speed without All +2 if I'm doing the math right. What do you guys think? Would this be worth it?

Edited August 2, 2014 by isetrh

[Ownagepuffs]

I already figured out my Apo team, but now thinking about possibilities and numbers is keeping me awake. It's 3:30 am here >.> +Mag -Def Lon'qu!Severa!Morgan as a Dark Flier could use a Sage pair-up and still hit 75 Speed without All +2 if I'm doing the math right. What do you guys think? Would this be worth it?

Yes it would be worth it.

[MelonGx]

If you're running non-Longbow, and both the firepower & supporter's hit rate are enough, you don't need Spd.75 to deal with Anna because the combat is:

Anna: Spear

-> Leader 1st -> Supporter 1st -> Supporter 2nd

-> Leader 2nd -> Supporter 3rd -> Supporter 4th

-> End battle

If Spd >= 75, then:

Anna: Spear

-> Leader 1st -> Supporter 1st -> Supporter 2nd

-> Leader 2nd -> Supporter 3rd -> Supporter 4th

(-> Leader 3rd -> Supporter 5th -> Supporter 6th) *

(-> Leader 4th -> Supporter 7th -> Supporter 8th) *

-> End battle

* Only happens on 1) DualStrike activation fail 2) Power is not enough to 6-hit KO 3) Supporter's accuracy isn't 100% which has caused some hit misses.

Edited August 2, 2014 by MelonGx

[YayForYuffie]

Quick question - I have all of the marriages done bar Panne and Cherche. The available bachelors are Frederick, Kellam, and Virion. Any recommendations on how to pair them up?

[Ownagepuffs]

Virion x Panne because Zerker Yarns would need Hit +20

Neither Freddy or Kellam are good for Gerome but might as well go Freddy

[Czar_Yoshi]

No, Yarne can take Fred/Kellam a lot better than Gerome can but Virion works for both of them, so I'd do Virion!Gerome and Fred!Yarne.

Avatar x Severa: It's worth it for Morgan, but make sure you know what Avatar and Severa are going to do. Lon'qu!Severa wants to either be a Hero or Wyvern, and neither of those really want a magical support.

[Alastor15243]

I'm thinking about my next playthrough in advance, and I'm considering doing Lon'qu!Yarne!Morgan, only with +Skill-Lck instead of +Spd-Lck (The concept of a high proc rate without rightful king (thus freeing up a skill slot) appeals to me). What would you recommend his class, his partner, and his partner's class be? Would Nah work well for him, and if so, who should her father be?

[Czar_Yoshi]

If you're going for super high Skl, he should be a Hero/Assassin/Sniper. The support should either be a BK, Hero or Sniper, and try to make it someone who he can get 100% DS with to make use of all that Skl. Vaike!Nah@Hero might work.

His skills should be the standard kit (LB/GF/Agg/Proc/Faire). Ignis vs Luna is up to you.

[Alastor15243]

If you're going for super high Skl, he should be a Hero/Assassin/Sniper. The support should either be a BK, Hero or Sniper, and try to make it someone who he can get 100% DS with to make use of all that Skl. Vaike!Nah@Hero might work.

His skills should be the standard kit (LB/GF/Agg/Proc/Faire). Ignis vs Luna is up to you.

Obviously Luna if he's not a dread fighter or tactician or dark knight, etc. When not in those classes Ignis is always inferior to Luna, ESPECIALLY on apotheosis. From what I've gathered, Ignis is at its best when you have both strong magic and strength, and when you can constantly do damage of the type the enemy is most weak against, rendering Luna less necessary and causing Ignis to do a significant damage boost.

Edit: Shoot. Skill-focused Lon'Qu!Yarne!Morgan would be exactly one speed short of being able to double Anna with a sniper partner as a hero.

Edit: Also, I really wish Pavise and Aegis were more useful, apparently they suck since I never ever see them recommended here. Somebody like Lon'qu!Yarne!Skill!Morgan would be able to rock that build like crazy if it were actually worthwhile.

Edited August 3, 2014 by Alastor15243

[Czar_Yoshi]

Heroes and BKs give the same boost, but also +Spd.

So do Villagers, but they stink

And no, whether Ignis trumps Luna is based entirely on whether your alternate Atk stat is higher than the foe's Def/Res. If your mag is higher, Ignis wins. If their Def is higher, Luna wins. It's as simple as that. Anyway, your Mag should be a pretty solid 54 (guessing, didn't do any calcs there), so for anyone with 55 Def or lower it'll be the same/better than Luna. Ignis also has the bonus of always boosting by the same amount, which can be nice. And there are so few dudes in S.Apo with 56 Def or higher that I can list them: nobody in Wave 1, Wave 2's 5 GKs (barely) and NS, Wave 3's Invincisorc (also barely) and Ikeadin, Wave 4's Thronie and all the Soldiers, and all of Wave 5's bosses except Anna. So yeah, Ignis is probably better.

Most people forget when appraising Ignis that LB/Rally boost it's power by 10 (5 after Dragonskin) giving it a huge edge on Luna. It's true that it's at it's best when you have a high secondary Atk stat and a pairup that boosts both Str and Mag, but then it's just ridiculous.

Edited August 3, 2014 by Czar_Yoshi

[Alastor15243]

Heroes and BKs give the same boost, but also +Spd.

So do Villagers, but they stink

And no, whether Ignis trumps Luna is based entirely on whether your alternate Atk stat is higher than the foe's Def/Res. If your mag is higher, Ignis wins. If their Def is higher, Luna wins. It's as simple as that. Anyway, your Mag should be a pretty solid 54 (guessing, didn't do any calcs there), so for anyone with 55 Def or lower it'll be the same/better than Luna. Ignis also has the bonus of always boosting by the same amount, which can be nice. And there are so few dudes in S.Apo with 56 Def or higher that I can list them: nobody in Wave 1, Wave 2's 5 GKs (barely) and NS, Wave 3's Invincisorc (also barely) and Ikeadin, Wave 4's Thronie and all the Soldiers, and all of Wave 5's bosses except Anna. So yeah, Ignis is probably better.

Most people forget when appraising Ignis that LB/Rally boost it's power by 10 (5 after Dragonskin) giving it a huge edge on Luna. It's true that it's at it's best when you have a high secondary Atk stat and a pairup that boosts both Str and Mag, but then it's just ridiculous.

Wow. And here I had been successfully convinced that the allegedly ultimate special tactician proc wasn't so ultimate. I would've thought that the enemies on Apotheosis had higher defense...

[Czar_Yoshi]

Some of them are pretty high (like NS and Thronie) but they're the ones everyone talks about due to being the major obstacles to challenge runs so it creates the illusion that all of Apo is like that even though 90% of the enemies there are just scrubs.

[Alastor15243]

Some of them are pretty high (like NS and Thronie) but they're the ones everyone talks about due to being the major obstacles to challenge runs so it creates the illusion that all of Apo is like that even though 90% of the enemies there are just scrubs.

Is there a guide to all of the menaces of Apotheosis with their nicknames? I've heard of the Ikeadin and the nightmare sniper (and I've encountered both of them), but what's the Invincisorc-

...I just typed that out and realized it's invinci sorcERER.

But still, is there a guide somewhere?

[isetrh]

If you're running non-Longbow, and both the firepower & supporter's hit rate are enough, you don't need Spd.75 to deal with Anna because the combat is:

Anna: Spear

-> Leader 1st -> Supporter 1st -> Supporter 2nd

-> Leader 2nd -> Supporter 3rd -> Supporter 4th

-> End battle

If Spd >= 75, then:

Anna: Spear

-> Leader 1st -> Supporter 1st -> Supporter 2nd

-> Leader 2nd -> Supporter 3rd -> Supporter 4th

(-> Leader 3rd -> Supporter 5th -> Supporter 6th) *

(-> Leader 4th -> Supporter 7th -> Supporter 8th) *

-> End battle

* Only happens on 1) DualStrike activation fail 2) Power is not enough to 6-hit KO 3) Supporter's accuracy isn't 100% which has caused some hit misses.

Thank you for explaining that. I guess higher Atk is the way to go then...?

Avatar x Severa: It's worth it for Morgan, but make sure you know what Avatar and Severa are going to do. Lon'qu!Severa wants to either be a Hero or Wyvern, and neither of those really want a magical support.

That's true... Maybe a Hero with Dread Fighter support?

I find myself wanting to steal that Lon'qu!Yarne!Morgan build for a future run. Who are good husbands for Lucina when it isn't Morgan or MaMU?

[Alastor15243]

If you're going for super high Skl, he should be a Hero/Assassin/Sniper. The support should either be a BK, Hero or Sniper, and try to make it someone who he can get 100% DS with to make use of all that Skl. Vaike!Nah@Hero might work.

Hang on... I'm confused. The support bonus for an S rank couple is 60%, so to reach 100% DS rate, doesn't the pair have to have a combined skill of ONE HUNDRED AND SIXTY? And even Skill-based Lon'qu!Yarne!Morgan would only have 80 as an assassin/sniper after LB, rallies and a tonic. Which means his wife and the pair-up bonuses she provides have to add up to ANOTHER 80 with LB, Rallies and a tonic. Which means that even with a ludicrous skill Morgan, his wife is going to need to have a +2 skill modifier and be a sniper in order to reach 100% Dual Strike. Vaike!Nah has neither sniper access nor a +2 skill modifier (she gets +1 thanks to Nowi's -1 skill mod). So that would mean I want Virion!Nah rather than Vaike!Nah, right? one better skill modifier and access to the sniper class?

Also, reaching 100% DS rate seems like an absurdly tall order now that I do the math. How on earth did you manage to give EVERYONE 100% dual strike rate like you said? That seems impossible.

Edited August 3, 2014 by Alastor15243

[Czar_Yoshi]

But still, is there a guide somewhere?

They're mostly names AC made up (or at least I got them from him). Most of them are (at least partly) self-explanatory: General Silverlance (GS) is the dude on Wave 0 with a Silver Lance, Nightmare Sniper (NS) is the Sniper with 70 Spd/Def, Invincisorc refers to the 99 Lck Sorcs, Thronie is the Helswath Berserker in Wave 4 on the throne, and Anna is Anna.

Hang on... I'm confused. The support bonus for an S rank couple is 60%, so to reach 100% DS rate, doesn't the pair have to have a combined skill of ONE HUNDRED AND SIXTY? And even Skill-based Lon'qu!Yarne!Morgan would only have 80 as an assassin/sniper after LB, rallies and a tonic. Which means his wife and the pair-up bonuses she provides have to add up to ANOTHER 80 with LB, Rallies and a tonic. Which means that even with a ludicrous skill Morgan, his wife is going to need to have a +2 skill modifier and be a sniper in order to reach 100% Dual Strike. Vaike!Nah has neither sniper access nor a +2 skill modifier (she gets +1 thanks to Nowi's -1 skill mod). So that would mean I want Virion!Nah rather than Vaike!Nah, right? one better skill modifier and access to the sniper class?

Also, reaching 100% DS rate seems like an absurdly tall order now that I do the math. How on earth did you manage to give EVERYONE 100% dual strike rate like you said? That seems impossible.

Yeah, 160 total. Try for an average of 76 per unit and add +8 from the support.

And I did it the same way I did that 100% critical build, Lunatic+ Grima OHKO through Pavise+ and the base Chrom Normal Apo solo: by being amazing getting a crazy idea, checking the math, and finding that it's barely possible. A hint: don't give Morgan a crazy Skl mod, or else it'll go to waste. In my first version of the team (which isn't very good and only focused on 100% DS above all else), I had Avatar marry Donnel!Kjelle.

Anyway, let's take a look at how you'd realistically reach it. 160 means an average of 80 per unit- I'll count the pairup bonus as part of the support's stats because it changes based on their class.

The three classes I care about here are Sniper (48 Skl, +8 pairup), Assassin (48 Skl, +7 pairup) and Hero (46 Skl, +8 pairup). For maximum performance the lead should be a Sniper/Assassin and the support should be a Sniper, but any combo will work. I'll assume Assassin (lead) x Hero (support).

Sans LB/Rally, my target is now 60 Skl. Assassin needs 12 from mods/skills/tonic, and Hero needs 6 (pairup bonus, remember). Tonics are easy so now it's 10/4. Vaike!Nah easily has room for All+2 and has a +1 Skl mod, so there's 1 remaining that the lead will have to pick up the slack on. The lead now needs a total of 11 from skills/mods. Lon'qu!Yarne!Morgan only has 10 Skl, so you'll either need to switch Nah to Gregor for 1 more Skl (she'll lose 1 Str, Mov+1 and DG+, but that's OK) or drop a Faire on your lead for All+2 to hit your target. You could also switch Vaike!Nah to Assassin for 1 more Skl, but then she won't have a Faire.

Edited August 3, 2014 by Czar_Yoshi

[Alastor15243]

They're mostly names AC made up (or at least I got them from him). Most of them are (at least partly) self-explanatory: General Silverlance (GS) is the dude on Wave 0 with a Silver Lance, Nightmare Sniper (NS) is the Sniper with 70 Spd/Def, Invincisorc refers to the 99 Lck Sorcs, Thronie is the Helswath Berserker in Wave 4 on the throne, and Anna is Anna.

Yeah, 160 total. Try for an average of 76 per unit and add +8 from the support.

And I did it the same way I did that 100% critical build, Lunatic+ Grima OHKO through Pavise+ and the base Chrom Normal Apo solo: by getting a crazy idea, checking the math, and finding that it's barely possible. A hint: don't give Morgan a crazy Skl mod, or else it'll go to waste. In my first version of the team (which isn't very good and only focused on 100% DS above all else), I had Avatar marry Donnel!Kjelle.

Alright, but am I correct that I need Virion!Nah rather than Vaike!Nah in order to get 100% without using Mystletain?

[Czar_Yoshi]

Check my edit, I did the math for you.

[Alastor15243]

Check my edit, I did the math for you.

Wow, thanks!

[isetrh]

Is there a physical equivalent to the Sage + Dark Flier pair?

[Waifu Severa]

Omg, i just made the worst mistake ever. I beat chapter 17, but didnt get any of the chests idk why, and i freakin saved. Then, after that, i looked up what was in those chests and i skipped the damn boots...wow. Now i only have the ones from the renown. Is that alright?

Also my +Speed -Defense Lonqu!Severa!Morgan is planned to be a wyvern lord paired with a zerker. That's good right? She can even reach 75 speed without all+2 or rally heart. She can maybe be a Sniper or something.

[Czar_Yoshi]

Closest I can think of would be Wyvern x Berserker.

I don't actually use the Boots very often outside of challenge runs, so it shouldn't matter too much.

Another thought for AC: Have you tried using Levin instead of Ragnell to attack Thronie?

Edited August 3, 2014 by Czar_Yoshi