FE:A is in two categories for Golden Joystick awards this year.

[Tables]

The thing that made me laugh is that one of those links calls the game a 'soap opera'. I didn't bother reading the other link after reading that.

FEA sucks. IS, what is balance.

I'd say it's as balanced as most games in the series - outside of Avatar being broken, the game is pretty decently balanced. You have some experimental characters like Donny but otherwise, yeah, I think it's no less balanced than, say, FE9 (Tits solo with a little help from Ike, a few characters like Sothe and Bastian totally suck etc.) and certainly more than FE10, FE11, FE4 etc.

Why remove weight?

I dunno, likely simplifying things for a casual audience.

Why essentially remove the weapon triangles?

??? Switching from a sword to a lance against a lance user yields +3mt, +25 hit, +1 def, +15 avoid. Switching from a sword to an axe against a lance user yields +3mt, +35 hit, +4 def, +40 avoid. That's pretty much the biggest weapon triangle effects FE has ever had.

Why remove the good plot?

Fire Emblem has rarely had a good plot, so whatever. Outside of FE7-8 and 4 (maybe 5-6, not played them) I wouldn't really say any FE has a 'good plot'. Also, Future Past is about the best plot in any FE game, although of course it's pretty short.

Why add in a gamebreaking pairup option?

Experimentation. It's a very fun mechanic, even though it's kind of broken. I enjoy dual strikes and dual guards when playing without pair-ups, makes supports feel more real, but pair up trivialises it and of course also adds ludicrous stat bonuses. Nerf the pair up stat bonuses and perhaps remove dual support when you're paired up and I think the game would instantly be a lot more interesting. But that's besides the point for this thread.

Why take massive steps down in level design and other areas?

Honestly, I don't think the level design here is any worse than other games in the series. Losing interesting objectives is one thing I definitely dislike about the game, but the level design itself? I don't see the issue.

FE9, now that was a game that deserved GOTY.

If it was my choice, probably every FE would have won GOTY. But it isn't so whatever.

The game has barely any level design beyond putting random enemies with random weapons at random spots of the map.

All they change between chapters is to raise their levels by 1-2.

And completely different map layouts, and usually completely different classes, and usually needing totally different strategies, and usually enemies having different skills. But yeah asides from that, all that changes is enemy levels increase by 1-2, which is only slightly more than what changes in games like FE9.

Edited August 30, 2013 by Tables

[Knight]

Resident Evil 4 was a revelation for the franchise. It changed up everything about the series up to that point. And it was the most streamlined experience. No offense to PoR, but RE4 was definitely the Game of the Year. It was probably one of the top 5 games for the gamecube, maybe even number 1.

Certainly is a great game, I've only played a bit of it and I can say that. Metroid Prime will always be #1 GameCube game for me however.

[BrightBow]

And completely different map layouts, and usually completely different classes, and usually needing totally different strategies, and usually enemies having different skills. But yeah asides from that, all that changes is enemy levels increase by 1-2, which is only slightly more than what changes in games like FE9.

The map layouts have no effect. With those high numbers in this game, it's not like terrain bonuses are very likely to make the magical difference between life and death.

The classes also are also always the same and feel just as random. Except the game seems to favor sorcerers over sages later on. But the difference between individual classes in extremely meager in the first place. They kill in about the same number of hits and die in about the same number of hits.

And the "different skills" literally get randomized each time you reenter the map. The fact that each map feels like it was populated by the same script that places Streepass teams is exactly my problem with it.

And what different strategies are there beyond "keep a defense formation and don't die" or "munchkin so that one pair can kill anyone on the map". It reminds me mostly of FE4, except armies over there had more of a theme to it. So each one needed a bit of a different approach.

As for Awakening being more varied then PoR, I'm going to quote an old post on PoR's map design:

"Chapter 8 has three choke points attacked by entirely different kinds of units. Cavaliers in the south, range from the east and melee from the west.

Chapter 10 Free the prisoners without getting seen

Chapter 11 has a lot of stuff going on:

Recruiting Zihark without killing the members of the vigilante group, beating the thieves to the houses and seizing the harbor. If you don't get these things done fast, you have the Black Knight after you.

Chapter 12 has you fighting on a small ship against an entire army of fliers.

Chapter 14 has fog of war, so careful movement is necessary.

Chapter 15 allows you to take advantage of the enemies transformation gauge. Use it to kill the enemies while they are weak or use it to outmaneuver them and collcect tons of BEXP. Your choice.

Chapter 17 is an endurance round of several skirmishes."

By then, I figured I had enough examples. But just to clarify that the game didn't doesn't get any less varied for the remainder of the campaign:

-Dealing with the overwhelmingly Naesala and flier-limiting ballista.

-Defeating a boss in a turnlimit.

-Defeating a boss without killing any of the enemy priests blocking your path.

-Dealing with the holes at the great bridge and the enemy fortifications.

-Prevent an NPC army from being defeated.

-Reach the boss who lets defense negating rocks fall down the hill towards your army

-Survive the 1 on 1 vs the Black Knight.

-Defeat an army consisting entirely of Laguz.

-Deal with the 10 Move Final Boss.

And of course the one map that is effectively Awakenings entire map design in a nutshell:

-Chapter 26. Wide open with random enemies charging at you from all directions

I don't think PoR map design is all that great. Far from it. But it's miles ahead from anything that Awakening has to offer.

Edited August 30, 2013 by BrightBow

[Knight]

Awakening maps at least looked really pretty, while only a number looked reallly nice in PoR.

[CT075]

i think brightbow's issue is that fe9's map design is actually a lot different on paper, or if you're playing sub-optimally

in practice, though, fe9's maps are pretty much all the same thing (blitz) because none of the things brought up actually hinder you if you know what you're doing, whereas fe13 at least makes you have to pay attention to what you're doing due to breakers and the like

"Chapter 8 has three choke points attacked by entirely different kinds of units. Cavaliers in the south, range from the east and melee from the west.

Chapter 10 Free the prisoners without getting seen

Chapter 11 has a lot of stuff going on:

Recruiting Zihark without killing the members of the vigilante group, beating the thieves to the houses and seizing the harbor. If you don't get these things done fast, you have the Black Knight after you.

Chapter 12 has you fighting on a small ship against an entire army of fliers.

Chapter 14 has fog of war, so careful movement is necessary.

Chapter 15 allows you to take advantage of the enemies transformation gauge. Use it to kill the enemies while they are weak or use it to outmaneuver them and collcect tons of BEXP. Your choice.

Chapter 17 is an endurance round of several skirmishes."

this is a nice pretty list that looks really good on paper, but in practice you can trivialise pretty much all of them with a blitz play (i think the only one where a blitz play is not optimal is the ship chapter and that's only because you can't do anything; if you have a trained marcia it's an even more boring blitz because you don't even have to care about anybody else)

-Dealing with the overwhelmingly Naesala and flier-limiting ballista.

blitz the boss before naesala can get to you

-Defeating a boss in a turnlimit.

blitz

-Defeating a boss without killing any of the enemy priests blocking your path.

if they were ever actually problematic to remove, sure

-Dealing with the holes at the great bridge and the enemy fortifications.

only likely to trip you up the first time

-Prevent an NPC army from being defeated.

what's the best way to do that? maybe bu getting in front of them. how do you get in front of them? blitz

-Reach the boss who lets defense negating rocks fall down the hill towards your army

-Survive the 1 on 1 vs the Black Knight.

explain to me how this invokes any kind of "ooh good map design"

you're literally either cheesing him with wrath or praying that aether goes off, or you're losing. great game design bro

-Defeat an army consisting entirely of Laguz.

i fail to see how this is any different than playing against human enemies

hell, human enemies are worse, because they have 2 range and no gauge

-Deal with the 10 Move Final Boss.

just blitz him with ike lol

-Chapter 26. Wide open with random enemies charging at you from all directions

yeah, because it's one of the few ways to actually discourage a blitz play

I don't think PoR map design is all that great. Far from it. But it's miles ahead from anything that Awakening has to offer.

man constant blitzing

definitely the varied and exciting map design i look for in FE

Edited August 30, 2013 by CT075

[Knight]

Some people like to play the game properly rather than blitzing.

[XeKr]

Can we once have a positive topic, especially one that's supposed to be celebrate a nomination for an award?

Seriously, FE9 is top 1-2 FE in my eyes and I like the whole series, but I always seem to be defending FE13. <_<

Map design and objective variety are imo mostly irrelevant to FE9's (lolollolmarciasoloetc) gameplay "depth" vs. FE13 . I'll let others note specifically how one could invent explanations for deep and complex map design in FE13, particularly in Lunatic. And there's quite a bit of obvious stuff that can be concocted if so desired, especially if some of that rationale already mentioned for map design is "good" (cam's rebuttal is quite sufficient). I'd almost argue that FE13 being way more polished in aesthetics is more important wrt FE map design. at least for me..

What's actually relevant is Canto, Rescue and Shove vs. Pair Up, btw.

In addition, I'll note that FE9 has a reputation for being a joke in difficulty and the one FE9 difficulty praised for the challenge, Maniac, is a slug fest in itself in many respects (no one does earlygame damage but Titania, silly enemy density, among other stuff).

Some people like to play the game properly rather than blitzing.

Regardless of your intention and the level of irony you're going for...

-_-

Edited August 30, 2013 by XeKr

[Nobody]

-Survive the 1 on 1 vs the Black Knight.

Because that certainly involves strategy and a lot of thinking, am I right?

Just admit you have an agenda against awakening, it's easier and more understandable than saying "I DON'T UNDERSTAND HOW ANYONE CAN LIKE THIS GAME!11!!!1!!!". There are many games I despise, but I can totally see how people like them.

FE4 bores me to death but I can see why people like it. Same to wind waker, skyrim, mass effect... Not everyone likes the same things.

BTW, I love FE9, but don't pretend it doesn't beat itself by putting Jill in the middle of the map with 5 javelins, even on hard mode.

Ike can also easily solo half the chapters.

Edited August 30, 2013 by Nobody

[PKL]

Eww. I hope it doesn't win shit.

[Tables]

And of course the one map that is effectively Awakenings entire map design in a nutshell:

-Chapter 26. Wide open with random enemies charging at you from all directions

I'm always baffled by the claim that FE13 is 'all wide open maps', since it's such a load of insane rubbish. Heck let's go through the entire game. I'll bold all the chapters which are very much not wide open maps.

Prologue: Two small groups of enemies in a little market. Not a wide open map.

Chapter 1: Dense forest limiting terrain as a group of enemies rush you. Not a wide open map.

Chapter 2: Aha, a big open field, the first one. Again, two groups of enemies.

Chapter 3: Besieging a fort with two different types of groups of enemies, fought in different ways. Not a wide open map.

Chapter 4: Your small group vs. Marth's small group in an arena. Distinct waves of enemies.

Chapter 5: Fighting Plegia over some cliffs. A few notable chokepoints and forts to hold. Not a wide open map.

Chapter 6: Defending Emmeryn while holding some corridors. Not a wide open map.

Chapter 7: Wyverns fighting along a narrow strip of land, surrounded by mountain and open air. Not a wide open map.

Chapter 8: Desert with various bones and hills to provide natural cover. A large open centre, but you cross it in one turn, so kind of borderline. I'll count it as a wide open map for now though, because they're losing.

Chapter 9: More bones, forts and desert, but a distinctly different map. Not wide and open though, for sure.

Chapter 10: Narrow passages among Grima's ribcage. Not a wide open map.

Chapter 11: Fighting Gangrel in an open field, with some trees and forts.

Chapter 12: Riders and Knights among a market town, with a ship. Not a wide open map.

Chapter 13: Surrounded by cliffs with Longbows sniping you in narrow passageways. Not a wide open map.

Chapter 14: Ships with narrow passages between them and Pegasii. Not a wide open map.

Chapter 15: A small beach and narrow town passageways. Not a wide open map.

Chapter 16: Tree roots giving a random looking series of passageways. Not a wide open map.

Chapter 17: In a fort. The opposite of a wide open map.

Chapter 18: Volcano. Also not a wide open map (chokepoints everywhere).

Chapter 19: A big open field which looks ideal for riders to charge your defences. Contains riders which charge your defences.

Chapter 20: Another fort. A large, open-ish centre, and narrow passages down the side. Not wide and open.

Chapter 21: Plegia Castle. Distinctly not a wide open map.

Chapter 22: Outside the Dragon's Table. Pretty open but 2/3rds of the enemies will be fought among terrain. I'll count it as a wide open map for now.

Chapter 23: Totally open map.

Chapter 24: Terrain heavy with a number of chokepoints. Not a wide open map.

Chapter 25: Split into two halves with lots of mountains and forests. Not a wide open map.

Endgame: Grima's back, pretty open.

So that makes I think... 8/27 maps that I'd count as being wide open maps. Not even 1/3. I'd say that's a reasonable number. Certainly far away from 'all' or even 'most'.

Oh, and for reference, of the side stories, I think Cynthia's, half of Yarne's, arguably Tiki's, arguably Walhart's and Priam's would count - that's at most 5/23 more, making 13/50 maps, about a quarter.

I can't really be bothered to address any other points, but most of the things you're complaining about in FE13 are no different here than FE9 and the like.

[Rainbow Skittles]

Eww. I hope it doesn't win shit.

same.

fe13 does not deserve this.

[Nobody]

I hope any of you guys that complain about awakening maps being "all wide open maps", "that play the same way" don't like FE4. That would be the most hypocrite thing in the world lol.

[PKL]

The issue isn't whether or not the maps are wide open. The issue is with the enemy placement and lack of secondary objectives. The map design in general IS pretty terrible, sadly. And then there's the stupid plethora of defeat boss 1 turns that even a dog can do.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

3 words

Buyable Rescue Staff

[PKL]

Don't forget Nosferatu!

One can literally just move a unit, end turn, skip EP , repeat until done with the game.

Edited August 30, 2013 by PKL

[Nobody]

The issue isn't whether or not the maps are wide open. The issue is with the enemy placement and lack of secondary objectives. The map design in general IS pretty terrible, sadly. And then there's the stupid plethora of defeat boss 1 turns that even a dog can do.

Isn't the objective on EVERY chapter of FE4 seize?

(not that I care about that one, FE6 is my favorite)

Don't forget Nosferatu!

One can literally just move a unit, end turn, skip EP , repeat until done with the game.

The same thing can be done with FE8 and FE9, but with javelins. I also heard Julia does the exactly same thing in FE4, but I've never played that game past chapter 1

Edited August 30, 2013 by Nobody

[Rehab]

"I hope this game goes down in flames like the disaster it is"

Only fans.

Ya damn, spilt-milk-soaked blankets

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

The same thing can be done with FE8 and FE9, but with javelins.

Franz and Vanessa can't

[Nobody]

Franz and Vanessa can't

Seth is all you need in that game. And this is coming from someone who usually hates using jagens, even on higher difficulties.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

You missed the joke >_>

That being said, Javelin does not exactly turn a unit into world destroyer

Nosferatu turns an otherwise mediocre character into Solo Machine

Granted, its VERY easy to make a solo machine in FE13, but you get the point

[Nobody]

You missed the joke >_>

That being said, Javelin does not exactly turn a unit into world destroyer

Nosferatu turns an otherwise mediocre character into Solo Machine

Granted, its VERY easy to make a solo machine in FE13, but you get the point

Yes, you can steamroll FE13 with a nosferatank, but where is the fun in doing that? I prefer to not do that, just as I don't just use Seth when playing FE8 and absolutely avoid using Marcus (I hate him) when playing FE6 and FE7. I was talking about how most FE games can be broken if you want to, awakening is not the only one.

Edited August 30, 2013 by Nobody

[amadeuscho]

Certainly is a great game, I've only played a bit of it and I can say that. Metroid Prime will always be #1 GameCube game for me however.

Yeah Metroid Prime is my number one, but Resident Evil scores so high for a lot of people because it's a really great third party game on a nintendo console. Both games rebooted their franchises' mentality very well.

The map layouts have no effect. With those high numbers in this game, it's not like terrain bonuses are very likely to make the magical difference between life and death.

The classes also are also always the same and feel just as random. Except the game seems to favor sorcerers over sages later on. But the difference between individual classes in extremely meager in the first place. They kill in about the same number of hits and die in about the same number of hits.

And the "different skills" literally get randomized each time you reenter the map. The fact that each map feels like it was populated by the same script that places Streepass teams is exactly my problem with it.

And what different strategies are there beyond "keep a defense formation and don't die" or "munchkin so that one pair can kill anyone on the map". It reminds me mostly of FE4, except armies over there had more of a theme to it. So each one needed a bit of a different approach.

As for Awakening being more varied then PoR, I'm going to quote an old post on PoR's map design:

"Chapter 8 has three choke points attacked by entirely different kinds of units. Cavaliers in the south, range from the east and melee from the west.

Chapter 10 Free the prisoners without getting seen

Chapter 11 has a lot of stuff going on:

Recruiting Zihark without killing the members of the vigilante group, beating the thieves to the houses and seizing the harbor. If you don't get these things done fast, you have the Black Knight after you.

Chapter 12 has you fighting on a small ship against an entire army of fliers.

Chapter 14 has fog of war, so careful movement is necessary.

Chapter 15 allows you to take advantage of the enemies transformation gauge. Use it to kill the enemies while they are weak or use it to outmaneuver them and collcect tons of BEXP. Your choice.

Chapter 17 is an endurance round of several skirmishes."

By then, I figured I had enough examples. But just to clarify that the game didn't doesn't get any less varied for the remainder of the campaign:

-Dealing with the overwhelmingly Naesala and flier-limiting ballista.

-Defeating a boss in a turnlimit.

-Defeating a boss without killing any of the enemy priests blocking your path.

-Dealing with the holes at the great bridge and the enemy fortifications.

-Prevent an NPC army from being defeated.

-Reach the boss who lets defense negating rocks fall down the hill towards your army

-Survive the 1 on 1 vs the Black Knight.

-Defeat an army consisting entirely of Laguz.

-Deal with the 10 Move Final Boss.

And of course the one map that is effectively Awakenings entire map design in a nutshell:

-Chapter 26. Wide open with random enemies charging at you from all directions

I don't think PoR map design is all that great. Far from it. But it's miles ahead from anything that Awakening has to offer.

All these complaints have to with FE13 as a member of the FE series. Nothing to do with how it ranks in the GOTY field. Last time I checked, PoR came out in 2005, and it wasn't even in the best game that year. Many of the reviewers who enjoyed the game probably had FE13 as their first FE game. And considering the high reviews they gave it, they are probably fans of the series now.

The game is easier and less balanced for us FE veterans; but for new players, the game is harder than your average game. The map layouts are designed well for what this game is trying to accomplish. The game has shorter chapters but they still provide a challenge, especially for new players.

The best praise any game could get is "would you recommend this to anyone." More so than any game in the series, FE13 is the game you can give to anyone. If you want to get them into the FE series, it would be this game.

Edited August 30, 2013 by Viewtiful_J

[Irysa]

FE9 is definitely trivialisable (sp?) but that has a lot more to do with the horribly imbalanced BEXP system than anything else. The actual overall layout and variety in the maps is commendable for anyone approaching the game from a non minmax standpoint. I mean to be quite frank, there are very few RPGs that are not breakable to some degree once you know how. Scratch RPGs, most games period...only games that have steep execution demands tend to actually remain "objectively" challenging, where your sheer knowledge of HOW to do something is not going to really help much in actually consistently doing it. It gets easier but not trivialisable.

As a strategy game, FE as a series falls flat on it's face in that regard. Once you know how you're generally set. That's why people who enjoy the games have fun putting limiters on themselves and exploring new avenues of play, whether that be solo/duo runs, exclusive units only, LTCs, 0% growths, whatever, because you're exploring new ways to play the game and you can start learning and strategising all over again. I think overall, these games to a great degree have self imposed difficulty more than what the developers themselves can do, because they're interesting boxes to experiment and interact with.

As a result, I don't think it's really fair to pick on ANY title in the series just because of ways in which you can make the game a breeze. When someone says "playing as intended" it sounds "scrubby" but consider the fact that the reason the games have longveity to both "hardcore" and "casual" players, is because they are flexible enough to allow for a variety of different playstyles and still be rewarding to many people. This is not an excuse for why some of the games are badly balanced, but the point is you can be mechanically enriched by a game without neccessarily playing the game optimally.

[Klokinator]

Never did I imagine my comment would troll so many people. I am truly happy on this day.

[Quintessence]

Wow, gr8. Hope Awakening gets an award.