New tier list method

[Chiki]

I'm gonna get to your larger post once I can get on my laptop, but any simpleton can understand that units aren't penalized for needing resources as long as they are the best candidate for that resource. I could explain it to a five year old and he could understand it.

[Nobody]

Here I thought this was a tier list anyone could participate in but I guess you actually need knowledge of specific strategies and optimal deployment tactics to get a point across.

You didn't even list fucking Frederick. Vaike and Miriel are also viable candidates.

Too bad she can only kill one at a time!

Frederick is not useful in that chapter, since he will most likely be a pair up partner, and you don't need that there. Even then, Stahl is much more likely to be out than Sumia, since he doesn't double and she does.

"Too bad that she only kills one at a time" ->

Well, there's only one on the right side, and they're really fragile. Any other unit can kill them. She will only be hit by an archer if you want. Like, literally. Because, there's no way you will have to fight both sides at the same time.

Sincerely, the way you're arguing, it seems like you want us to have anti-favoritism against Sumia. Like, going out of our way to make sure she won't get anything she could.

Edited September 14, 2013 by Nobody

[Florete]

This is HM, right? The archers aren't even close to each other, and with a pair up from Kellam, Vaike, or Frederick, Sumia can easily 1RKO them before they become a threat.

Correct me if I'm missing something.

Ch 3 and Paralogues 1 and 2 have Archers such that you usually can't kill one without being in range of another. In all three, unless you've drawn them to you first, it's also hard to get someone else over to kill the extras, and if Sumia isn't paired with Fred, she also gets really worried about the other enemies in the vicinity.

Sincerely, the way you're arguing, it seems like you want us to have anti-favoritism against Sumia. Like, going out of our way to make sure she won't get anything she could.

Uh, no. The problem is there just isn't much going for Sumia. She has one specific partner that she needs to perform well and she is completely beaten by Cordelia in raw stats. It literally makes no sense for Sumia to win in this tier list. Edited September 14, 2013 by Red Fox of Fire

[Nobody]

Ch 3 and Paralogues 1 and 2 have Archers such that you usually can't kill one without being in range of another. In all three, unless you've drawn them to you first, it's also hard to get someone else over to kill the extras, and if Sumia isn't paired with Fred, she also gets really worried about the other enemies in the vicinity.

Uh, no. The problem is there just isn't much going for Sumia. She has one specific partner that she needs to perform well and she is completely beaten by Cordelia in raw stats. It literally makes no sense for Sumia to win in this tier list.

The thing is, with that pair up partner, she beats Cordelai by a wide margin. There's no reason to not pair Fred up with her, and by doing that, you get one of the best units in the game. It's the best use of Sumia and Frederick.

BTW, I know PEMN, but even on my no pair up run, Sumia>>Cordelia. Cordelia couldn't double anything (her base speed is a problem without a pair up partner. And a problem much bigger than Sumia's STR).

Sumia needs a good pair up partner, but so does Cordelia.

Edited September 14, 2013 by Nobody

[Elieson]

I'm gonna get to your larger post once I can get on my laptop, but any simpleton can understand that units aren't penalized for needing resources as long as they are the best candidate for that resource. I could explain it to a five year old and he could understand it.

Right, because obviously whenever people find stat boosters, they either immediately use them on the best candidate for them, or save them specifically for another candidate.

There's no reason to hand any one specific unit a specific booster in this scenario; more like, who wouldn't you hand them to? Most wouldn't give a Seraph Robe to Virion, but Chrom, MU, Lissa, Donny, Sumia and Cordelia all would like it. This is a general list meant for first timers and casual players, so let's be cool and not assume perfect play here.

[Florete]

The thing is, with that pair up partner, she beats Cordelai by a wide margin. There's no reason to not pair Fred up with her, and by doing that, you get one of the best units in the game. It's the best use of Sumia and Frederick.

BTW, I know PEMN, but even on my no pair up run, Sumia>>Cordelia. Cordelia couldn't double anything (her base speed is a problem without a pair up partner. And a problem much bigger than Sumia's STR).

Why not Frederick x Cordelia? He gets the same bonuses and his partner will have better stats to boot. And this doesn't hurt him before she arrives because he can still use Sumia before then. Or he can use Chrom or Avatar or Sully, who also give him good boosts. The way I understand this tier list, it should not be assuming one scenario and one scenario only. Cordelia is infinitely more flexible in how she can perform well and that should be a major advantage here.

[Chiki]

Actually, we're already assuming strategies like Nosferatanking.

A first time player is not going to understand why Miriel is the second best unit behind the Avatars.

We're already assuming perfect play here. Even you.

I think a way around this issue would be to include short one or two sentence explanations for first time players.

[Elieson]

Actually, we're already assuming strategies like Nosferatanking.

A first time player is not going to understand why Miriel is the second best unit behind the Avatars.

Then we add notations and precursors explaining highlights of the game such as effective strategies to maximize results with increased reliability:

The Nosferatu Tome, usable only by Dark Mages, Sorcerers, and magic users with the Shadowgift Skill, allows regeneration of HP equal to 1/2 of inflicted damage, per hit. This is incredibly useful when you double hit enemies and recover more damage than you're hit for. The Nosferatu Tome is sold in X chapters, for Y gold, so it's always available.

Notes like that help explain why our tier list is ordered how it's ordered. It's general, and explains a gameplay aspect, rather than a specific unit's worth due to X, Y, and Z items/equipment/promotions etc.

**Edit**

There's still no responses to my inclusion of skirmishes and Anna shops.

Edited September 14, 2013 by Elieson

[Chiki]

Well, Miriel's worth is due to Nosferatu. Sumia's worth is due to Frederick. It's kinda impossible to separate the two.

We have to assume perfect play to get any work done.

[PKL]

Way to ignore that Cordelia can pull off Nosferatanking. I love the Sumia bias.

And lol @ Cordelia having doubling issues. The only things she doesnt double are myrmidons in Ch8.

[ZemZem]

IMO, Cordelia would rather fly than use Nosferatu.

[Nobody]

Way to ignore that Cordelia can pull off Nosferatanking.

Good luck with that MAG. How will she recover the DGM she suffers, if she will only deal 10 DMG at most lol. You complain about the Sumia bias, but your bias for Cordelia is more than obvious.

And lol @ Cordelia having doubling issues. The only things she doesnt double are myrmidons in Ch8.

Without pair up partners that give speed she isn't able to double the cavaliers either IIRC.

If we can't assume Sumia is getting her best support partner, why should we assume Cordelia is?

Edited September 14, 2013 by Nobody

[Chiki]

Way to ignore that Cordelia can pull off Nosferatanking. I love the Sumia bias.

And lol @ Cordelia having doubling issues. The only things she doesnt double are myrmidons in Ch8.

Is your selective reading conscious or unconscious? I've said "Sumia is better apart from Nosferatanking" multiple times.

I don't know how to deal with it yet, since her magic is so low.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Fred is a contested resource

Chrom as well and he is fixated on MU

because frankly, Sumia's only choice is thought to be those two and some players go further and said dumb shit(not name calling no) like Sumia is unviable without Cavalier Chrom or Frederick, despte the fact that Sumia can perform well with Lord!Chrom

Granted I have not tried some of her pairings, such as Gaius who have some cool prospect in a hindsight. IIRC bearclaw have done Gaius x Sumia?

Edited September 14, 2013 by JSND

[Florete]

We have to assume perfect play to get any work done.

"Sumia is better because I can give her everything she wants to make her perform perfectly and just ignore Cordelia."

Really, Celes, answer these: what is the point of this tier list? What is it here for? What are the rules? Who is it supposed to help?

If Sumia can't get Fred, why should Cordelia get anyone?

Are you for fuckin' real.

You can't be serious.

Tell me you're not serious.

Edited September 14, 2013 by Red Fox of Fire

[Nobody]

Are you for fuckin' real.

You can't be serious.

Tell me you're not serious.

Ok, that was a bit dumb, but let me reformulate the question:

"If we can't assume Sumia is getting her best support partner, why should we assume Cordelia is?"

If we assume both are getting their best support partners (Fred and Stahl), then Sumia > Cordelia.

Edited September 14, 2013 by Nobody

[Chiki]

I'm not ignoring Cordelia. I'm giving her any pairings she would like without any cost, and she can become a Nosferatanker if that's the best way to go. Cordelia will be above Sumia if someone can prove to me that she becomes a good Nosferatu user.

I'm gonna be honest here. I can literally feel the Cordelia bias emanating from you right now.

[Blademaster!]

Given the criteria of this list, I really don't see how Sumia > Cordelia other than possibly having earlier access to galeforce(which arguably doesn't even matter) and more time to build supports since otherwise Cordelia could even go Mercenary->Hero and get Patience+Sol in addition to Nosferatu if we care so much about durability and the like. Though really, they both preform pretty much the same by and large in hard. Maybe if this were Lunatic Sumia would clearly be the better of the two.

Also, Libra should probably go up.

[PKL]

Maybe if this were Lunatic Sumia would clearly be the better of the two.

Also, Libra should probably go up.

Not really. Cordelia is better in Lunatic. Sumia is barely trainable in Lunatic. What with her amazing "I get OHKO'd even with Fred ohmygosh I tripped oh no" and "oh man I cant double without Chrom, sorry but I really really want that def boost...OH NO". Cordelia joins in a chapter thats a lot easier and she isnt OHKO'd. And Celes, I have freaking done BASE MAGIC Nosferatu tanking Cordelia.

[ZemZem]

Not really. Cordelia is better in Lunatic. Sumia is barely trainable in Lunatic. What with her amazing "I get OHKO'd even with Fred ohmygosh I tripped oh no" and "oh man I cant double without Chrom, sorry but I really really want that def boost...OH NO". Cordelia joins in a chapter thats a lot easier and she isnt OHKO'd. And Celes, I have freaking done BASE MAGIC Nosferatu tanking Cordelia.

If Sumia's not trainable, what makes you think Cordelia is.

[Elieson]

this is hard mode, not lunatic mode

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Sumia is actually trainnable in Lunatic especially under this Tier List context

[Florete]

Ok, that was a bit dumb, but let me reformulate the question:

"If we can't assume Sumia is getting her best support partner, why should we assume Cordelia is?"

If we assume both are getting their best support partners (Fred and Stahl), then Sumia > Cordelia.

I'm not assuming anyone's getting their "best" support partner. Have you read my posts at all? One of the biggest points is now unflexible Sumia is. She needs Frederick but Cordelia has multiple other options. And even Stahl!Cordelia > Frederick!Sumia, dunno what you're smoking there. Cordelia is still going to be a statistically superior unit and Stahl will soon be better than Frederick as well, his Spd problem gone thanks to Cordelia.

I'm not ignoring Cordelia. I'm giving her any pairings she would like without any cost, and she can become a Nosferatanker if that's the best way to go. Cordelia will be above Sumia if someone can prove to me that she becomes a good Nosferatu user.

I'm gonna be honest here. I can literally feel the Cordelia bias emanating from you right now.

If she's a good Nosferatu user? No. Answer my questions about what this tier list is for, because you are making no sense at all.

I have absolutely no Cordelia bias. The fact that you see any at all means you just have Sumia bias (or anti-Cordelia bias). I have no particular love or dislike for either character, there just isn't any way Sumia is a better unit and I literally do no understand how that isn't totally obvious.

Edited September 14, 2013 by Red Fox of Fire

[PKL]

ZM, because she legit joins at a point when the enemies aren't as threatening. Have you played LM? The enemies become weaker in C6 for some weird design reason. Paralogue 3 has less threatening enemies than like Ch2.

Anyway, back to Hard Mode.

Edited September 14, 2013 by PKL

[Nobody]

Not really. Cordelia is better in Lunatic. Sumia is barely trainable in Lunatic. What with her amazing "I get OHKO'd even with Fred ohmygosh I tripped oh no" and "oh man I cant double without Chrom, sorry but I really really want that def boost...OH NO". Cordelia joins in a chapter thats a lot easier and she isnt OHKO'd. And Celes, I have freaking done BASE MAGIC Nosferatu tanking Cordelia.

dafuk dude. Did sumia ran over (or triped over) your dog?

I'm not assuming anyone's getting their "best" support partner. Have you read my posts at all? One of the biggest points is now unflexible Sumia is. She needs Frederick but Cordelia has multiple other options. And even Stahl!Cordelia > Frederick!Sumia, dunno what you're smoking there. Cordelia is still going to be a statistically superior unit and Stahl will soon be better than Frederick as well, his Spd problem gone thanks to Cordelia.

Frederick isn't the only viable partner for Sumia. She also works well with Chrom or Henry after promoting to dark flier. Also, she also works well alone. Yes, without any pair up partner at all. Yes, I tried it, I did a no pair up playthrough and Sumia was better than Cordelia.

If Sumia can take Lord Chrom and do okay, I don't see how she should take Fred >_>

Because she does much better with Fred :p

Edited September 14, 2013 by Nobody