AssassinSevera Posted October 6, 2013 Share Posted October 6, 2013 (edited) I have Stahl!Inigo as Hero with DG+, but i was wondering does it really make a difference? If not, I'll just replace it with Counter/Swordfaire. Edited October 6, 2013 by AssassinSevera Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comet Posted October 6, 2013 Share Posted October 6, 2013 Only if he'll be a supporting unit. Also Swordfaire>Counter because your units shouldn't be getting hit anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AssassinSevera Posted October 6, 2013 Author Share Posted October 6, 2013 Only if he'll be a supporting unit. Also Swordfaire>Counter because your units shouldn't be getting hit anyway. Thanks! So would this be considered a good skillset? Galeforce, Armsthrift, DG+, Luna, Swordfaire Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iHeartLibra Posted October 6, 2013 Share Posted October 6, 2013 Thanks! So would this be considered a good skillset? Galeforce, Armsthrift, DG+, Luna, Swordfaire I like it! DG+ will give Inigo a nice surprise for spot passers who assume Olivia/partner aren't covered by a doting son/husbando! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AssassinSevera Posted October 6, 2013 Author Share Posted October 6, 2013 I like it! DG+ will give Inigo a nice surprise for spot passers who assume Olivia/partner aren't covered by a doting son/husbando! Cool! I would hope to see this skillset be awesome in Apotheosis if i get it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airship Canon Posted October 6, 2013 Share Posted October 6, 2013 Here's how this works: Dual Guard+ is about as worth it as Myrmidon's Avoid+10. Except the math behind it is tricky- thanks to True Hit, and Dual Guards being on separate Rolls. In general if the enemy has a Hit Rate before Avo+10 is applied of 74(IIRC) or better, DG+ is better as it's on a separate roll from Hit, if not, Avoid+10 is better. Some notes: If the unit is using Breakers, Avo+10 will most likely be better. [see Lancekiller] If the unit is using Vengeance, do -not- use Dual Guard+. Dual Guards and Vengeance don't exactly mix too well. Both skills have about equal usage in final builds, I.E. not that important, except Avo+10 can be used to push certain targets down to 0% Hit in specific sets, which is better than anything DG+ can do, although DG+ can be used to get something like a 70% survival rate against getting doubled by Helswath Zerker (DG+ with average Dual Guard rate of S-rank supports without LB is ~47%, or 53% of it not occurring, double non-occurrence is ~28%). Just so happens that DG+ is gotten from the same class as Luna, which is important, much like Avo+10 is gotten from the same class that gives Vantage. If you're getting into situations where death may occur, then by all means go for it, but if you running fullpower it's not worth it, even as a support unit's skill, because you shouldn't be getting attacked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawk King Posted October 6, 2013 Share Posted October 6, 2013 ^ youre completely wrong. DG+ >>>> avoid+10 in every situation imaginable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airship Canon Posted October 6, 2013 Share Posted October 6, 2013 (edited) ^ youre completely wrong. DG+ >>>> avoid+10 in every situation imaginable. Are you daft? Do you understand how the mechanics of the skills work? Both add 10% to their respective manner of damage avoidance. Factor in true hit, and if the enemy's actual Hit is already low, Avo+10 soars in its value. (from 73->63: 12.7% 50->40: 18.1%) On top of that, if the enemy doesn't have Hawkeye, it CAN have its Hit reduced to 0 (sure the drop from 10 to 0 is Only 2.1%, but it's a infinite increase in survivability against that unit.) DG+ will only ever be 10% avoidance, and Dual Guard can NEVER be 100% unlike Avoid... in fact it can't ever reach the 80%+ "Reliable" range (which Avo does at... 69 AVO over the enemy's Hit) . I don't know about you, but dropping 10 Hit off a target to make them completely unable to hit is infinitely more valuable than raising a 37% chance to not take damage to a 47% chance to not take damage from that same target. If you don't get that concept, you're not very good at all. Sure there's the whole DG+ works from support thing, but that hardly means anything when you're wagering it against total invincibility. Edited October 6, 2013 by Airship Canon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nobody Posted October 7, 2013 Share Posted October 7, 2013 DG+ on a support unit > avoid +10 on a lead > DG+ on a lead > avoid+10 on a support unit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airship Canon Posted October 7, 2013 Share Posted October 7, 2013 DG+ on a support unit > avoid +10 on a lead > DG+ on a lead > avoid+10 on a support unit. Still all depends on use and situation. (outside of Avo+10 being completely useless on support) Either way, the skills are about the same in value. Avo+10 still can do what DG+ cannot-- and that's actually make a unit totally invincible outside of Counter against another. Avo+10 on a lead > DG+ on support EASILY if that Avo+10 is dropping a 10 Hit chance to 0. Hell, DSu+ > DG+ if the +5 AVO drops a 5 to 0. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AssassinSevera Posted October 7, 2013 Author Share Posted October 7, 2013 Still all depends on use and situation. (outside of Avo+10 being completely useless on support) Either way, the skills are about the same in value. Avo+10 still can do what DG+ cannot-- and that's actually make a unit totally invincible outside of Counter against another. Avo+10 on a lead > DG+ on support EASILY if that Avo+10 is dropping a 10 Hit chance to 0. Hell, DSu+ > DG+ if the +5 AVO drops a 5 to 0. So that means i should take out DG+ on Inigo and give him either Axebreaker/Avoid +10, Vantage, or Astra? If so, then which skill should i add in? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airship Canon Posted October 7, 2013 Share Posted October 7, 2013 So that means i should take out DG+ on Inigo and give him either Axebreaker/Avoid +10, Vantage, or Astra? If so, then which skill should i add in? It all depends on: 1. What is he doing? What's your Inigo's role in combat- is he up front for the most part? Is he going to be facing the Enemy Phase? 2. What foes are we looking at? Apo? Late Game? (If so, what difficulty?) Streetpasses (obviously fighting Streetpasses, as DG+ is useless on them)? 3. What are his other skills? There's a lot to consider than just blindly looking at skills... DG+ is a good example of a skill that you have to question the value of- Yes it can be extremely useful at times [DG+ can allow a unit to reasonably take 2 Helswath 'zerker blasts without dropping (as there's a pretty solid chance that out of the two attacks, one will be dual guarded with DG+) [still highly not recommended], for example.] but at others, its a wasted skill slot, [if the pair isn't facing enemy attacks for whatever reason, what's it doing?] or it's overall effectiveness swings wildly [Like when compared to Avo+10, for example.], so while one can't say it's outright bad, you can't say it's great either. Also, it's only needed, if used, on 1/2 of your units, and only on combat units, which depending on how your team rolls, that's usually only about 6 units. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AssassinSevera Posted October 7, 2013 Author Share Posted October 7, 2013 It all depends on: 1. What is he doing? What's your Inigo's role in combat- is he up front for the most part? Is he going to be facing the Enemy Phase? 2. What foes are we looking at? Apo? Late Game? (If so, what difficulty?) Streetpasses (obviously fighting Streetpasses, as DG+ is useless on them)? 3. What are his other skills? There's a lot to consider than just blindly looking at skills... DG+ is a good example of a skill that you have to question the value of- Yes it can be extremely useful at times [DG+ can allow a unit to reasonably take 2 Helswath 'zerker blasts without dropping (as there's a pretty solid chance that out of the two attacks, one will be dual guarded with DG+) [still highly not recommended], for example.] but at others, its a wasted skill slot, [if the pair isn't facing enemy attacks for whatever reason, what's it doing?] or it's overall effectiveness swings wildly [Like when compared to Avo+10, for example.], so while one can't say it's outright bad, you can't say it's great either. Also, it's only needed, if used, on 1/2 of your units, and only on combat units, which depending on how your team rolls, that's usually only about 6 units. So i could make my MU supporting Olivia in the back of the pair with these skills? Dual Support+, Dual Guard+, Anathema, Solidarity, Luna/Hex? Also, could somebody give me an example of their team with all the support units and lead units? I would really appreciate it, because i don't fully understand it yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airship Canon Posted October 8, 2013 Share Posted October 8, 2013 Also, could somebody give me an example of their team with all the support units and lead units? I would really appreciate it, because i don't fully understand it yet. Here's what I used for probably my biggest accoplishment, and should serve as a good example: MU [Lead: Tank] Sage Hit+20, Tomefaire, All+2, Mag+2, Vengeance Partner: Olivia!Lucina [Lead: Attacker (note: Thanks to SPD thresholds, she didn't do a whole lot)] Dark Flier Galeforce, Aether, Luna, Lancefaire, Dual Strike+ LQ!Severa [Lead: Hard] Hero Avo+10, Lancebreaker, All+2, Vengeance, Galeforce Partner: Vaike!Gerome [Hard Support] Berserker Lancebreaker, Str+2, All+2, Dual Support+, Axefaire Libra!Owain [Lead: Attacker AND Tank] Sage Vantage, Vengeance, Tomefaire, All+2, Galeforce Partner: Henry!Cynthia [Lead: Attacker] Dark Flier Tomefaire, Luna, Anathema, All+2, Galeforce Lucina!Morgan [Lead: Attacker; "Sniper"] Sniper Bowfaire, Aether, Luna, Ignis, Galeforce Partner: Chrom!Inigo [Lead: Attacker] Bow Knight Bowfaire, Luna, Rightful King, Hit+20, Galeforce Stahl!Laurent [Lead: Tank] Sage Tomefaire, Vantage, Vengeance, All+2, Dual Support+ Partner: Gaius!Noire [Lead: Attacker] Dark Flier Anathema, Luna, All+2, Skl+2, Galeforce Ricken!Brady [Lead: Attacker, (Tanked a couple things, but isn't primarily a tank)] Sage Defender, All+2, Tomefaire, Luna, Galeforce Partner: Donnel!Kjelle [Lead: Attacker] Bride All+2, Dual Support+, Luna, Lancefaire, Galeforce Chrom [Lead: Attacker, "Sniper"] Sniper Dual Strike+, Aether, Luna, Bowfaire, Charm Partner (non-S-Rank): Maribelle [support, can Lead or serve as staffbot] Sage All+2, Dual Support+, Tomefaire, Galeforce, [Filler] Spotpass!Ike [Lead: Hard, "Sniper"] Sniper Aether, Luna, Ignis, Bowfaire, Hit+20 Partner (non-support): Yarne [Hard Support] Berserker All+2, Lancebreaker, Str+2, Swordbreaker, Axefaire The rest of the team consisted of Staffbots [Lissa, Libra, Raine (Guest MU)] and Olivia [Dancer] Designation: Lead: Hard- This unit will not switch with its support unit, except for restock purposes. Lead: Attacker- This unit carries out the role of leading an attack on player phase. Lead: Tank - This unit carries out the role of fighting on the enemy phase. Lead: "Sniper" - This unit attacks the enemy on player phase at range 3 when needed.(Class must be Sniper) Support: Hard- This unit will not switch with its lead unit, except for restock purposes. Pairing two leads together, often calls for double galeforce, or involves a tank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AssassinSevera Posted October 8, 2013 Author Share Posted October 8, 2013 (edited) ^^ Thanks for sharing some of your builds! I've always thought i was going wrong when i was pairing attacker with attacker. Anyway, here's some of my sets i might consider: Olivia [Lead: Attacker] Assassin Galeforce, Astra, Swordfaire, Vantage, Avoid +10 Partner: Non S rank MU [Lead: He could be both Supporter and Attacker] MU: Assassin Dual Support+/Bowfaire, Dual Guard+/Armstrhift, Luna, Swordfaire, Ignis Lonqu!Severa [Lead: Attacker] Assassin Galeforce, Armsthrift, Vantage/Lucky7/Breaker, Sol, Swordfaire Partner: Stahl!Inigo [Lead: Supporter/Attacker] Assassin DG+, Luna, Swordfaire, Galeforce, Armsthrift Tharja!Noire [Lead: Attacker and Tank] Sorceror Galeforce, Armsthrift, Hit +20, Vantage, Vengeance (With Forged Aversa's Night) Partner: Ricken!Owain [Lead: Attacker] Sage/Sorceror Tomefaire, Luna, Galeforce, Vantage, Astra Tharja!Morgan [Lead: Attacker] Assassin Galeforce, Armsthrift, Swordfaire, Ignis, Luna Partner: Frederick!Gerome [Lead: Attacker/Tank] Hero/Assassin Pavise, Swordbreaker, Axefaire, Luna, Aegis Stahl!Inigo [Lead: Attacker] Assassin/Hero Galeforce, Armsthrift, Swordfaire, Luna/Sol, Astra/Aegis Partner: Lonqu!Severa [Lead: Attacker] Assassin Galeforce, Armsthrift, Swordfaire, Sol, Vantage/Breaker/Lucky7 Chrom!Cynthia [Lead: Attacker] Dark Flier Galeforce, Luna, Aether, Tomefaire, Lancefaire Partner: Kellam!Laurant [Lead: Attacker/Support] Sage/Sorceror Tomefaire, Magic +2, Tomebreaker, Luna, DG+ Gregor!Yarne [Attacker] Berserker Axefaire, Swordbreaker, Vantage, Sol, Armsthrift Partner: Gaius!Nah [Lead: Attacker/Tank] Manakete Galeforce, Astra, Vantage, Swordbreaker, Avoid +10/Wyrmsbane Sumia!Lucina: [Attacker] Sage Tomefaire, Galeforce, Aether, Luna, Rightful King Partner: Henry!Brady [Lead: Attacker] Sage/Sorceror Tomefaire, Tomebreaker, Luna, Magic +2, Lifetaker That leaves Kjelle all alone. Also, should i switch Brady and Laurent? Meaning should i give Brady to Cynthia and Laurent to Lucina? Edited October 8, 2013 by AssassinSevera Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AssassinSevera Posted October 8, 2013 Author Share Posted October 8, 2013 Edited my team^ Does that look good for Apotheosis? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.