Pokemon X/Y Ingame Tier List Discussion

[shadykid]

hey man Perish Song is a legit speedrun strat, see Werster's 2nd run

although if you're talking postgame (sounds like it), Greninja>Lapras

Edited October 22, 2013 by shadykid

[Don Draper]

they're worse off than last gen in actual battling with fairy types

also are there really only 8 required battles from the first gym to the second gym, that seems....off

Yeah, Gym 2 looks like one of the most difficult from a speedrun perspective, just because your Pokemon are so underleveled. Apart from Team Flare, most of the Trainer battles in general can be skipped.

[shadykid]

I'm curious about the EV distribution for required battles

I'm sure it's.....interesting

[Ein]

Lucario wrecks everything ingame as it is and having instant access to Mega is icing on the cake. The Lucario shaped cake.

I wanna say that Delphox and Greninja are also pretty high up in the usefulness part. Both have reliable attacks and great special attack and speed.

[Samias]

My team impressions...

Froakie: Top tier. I mean, he's fast and learns a HUGE amount of coverage. It's a shame he doesn't get Night Slash without the move relearner and otherwise only has Feint Attack or Thief for dark STAB, but considering he has Grass Knot, Rock Slide, Brick Break, Shadow Sneak, Aerial Ace, Acrobatics, and so much more plus his own water moves, he's just versatile. His gym performance can get a little shaky at times but usually he has coverage and enough power to OHKO the stuff he's technically weak against. Great candidate for an Expert Belt. He's essentially type inversed Infernape.

Ralts -> Gardevoir: High tier/Upper mid? Ralts is not very good, but starts to pick up steam as Kirlia and gets some filler coverage through Magical Leaf and Charge Beam. Gardevoir though... having a fairy type in this game is nice due to it slaughtering fighting/dark/dragon, and Gardevoir has very few weaknesses thanks to its dual typing with psychic. Poison types are not a problem when a STAB Psychic runs them down. Psychic/Psyshock and Dazzling Gleam/Moon Blast are musts, with slots for whatever you need coverage with, since it can fill its last two slots either with support moves like Will-O-Wisp, Thunderwave, or Hypnosis, or with boosting moves like Calm Mind, or with Thunderbolt, Shadow Ball or Energy Ball/Grass Knot. As Gardevoir, totally awesome, but before then kinda eh because you run Confusion for so long. But once it gets going, it's a team MVP.

Oddish -> Vileplume: Mid? Kinda lacking in moves early on. You're pretty much forced to run Poison Powder + Venoshock if you want to hit hard early on, otherwise you're relying on Mega Drain and Acid until you pick up Grass Knot. Later on it picks up cool stuff like Sludge Bomb, Dazzling Gleam and the new move Grassy Terrain, which boosts grass-type moves by 50%. Gloom is actually decently bulky with Eviolite and its more defensive typing. When it evolves into Vileplume, it can combine Black Sludge, Grassy Terrain, and boosted Giga Drains to continually regain HP, but otherwise doesn't hit as hard as either Greninja nor Gardevoir. I think Vileplume is the preferred evolution of Oddish, since it keeps STAB on poison moves and its resistance to fighting type moves and immunity to the poison status, among other things.

Diggersby: Lower mid? Huge movepool, great level-up moves... terrible stats. Great as an HM slave and for Pickup but his bulk advantage over Bibarel is wasted on being useless at combat. Also, he's so ugly. I replaced him with Linoone, who is faster and hits harder despite having no ground STAB. Maybe it would be a different story if Huge Power was one of his default abilities but he's otherwise he's a pretty weak "Rattata".

Linoone: Lower mid. Decent attack and speed but considering the great Pokemon you get early on, nothing special. The value of the Rattata archetype is greatly diminished here.

Talonflame: Mid. His time before his 3rd form is underwhelming. You're stuck with Peck for a looong time until Aerial Ace comes up, but his offense becomes pretty good when Acrobatics comes up. With the move relearner, he finally picks up Brave Bird and Flare Blitz, though Acrobatics might still be preferred for the lack of suicidal damage. At least he had good coverage filler for my team and I assume the teams of many others. Steel Wing comes better late than never, but it does learn it naturally. A better pick than Pidgey.

Pidgey: Lower mid/Low? Even buffed, still not good. Its movepool is full of moves that use its lower sp.atk, plus it takes ages for it to learn any flying STAB until... Gust. Then it gets Aerial Ace out of a TM likely before it gets to Wing attack. Talonflame is just better, even when it uses Peck for ages.

Beedrill: With its buffed attack and buffed Twineedle, surprisingly okay. Not taking the world by storm but actually performs better than previous gens. Will definitely get phased out of the team from underwhelming bulk and speed, but has a good early game out of its Weedle stage.

Pikachu: Adorable, but lacking in durability. However he does Thunderwave 2.0 aka Nuzzle, and is probably its best user. Kinda lacks in move variety but Brick Break + Grass Knot is not horrible additional coverage. Electric types are immune to paralyse now too so Raichu will never worry about its speed. Probably mid tier material. Shows up early but his rarity means you might not be able to take advantage of him.

Scraggy: Upper mid? Don't stay in against anything with a fairy type move. Even Disarming Voice from Espurr is pretty much a death sentence for this guy. Otherwise, he's very good. Scrafty is not very fast and its movepool trends towards borderline suicide. Evolves kinda late, but gets High Jump Kick pretty early for its power, learns Crunch at a pretty good time, and picks up some decent coverage in Dig, Poison Jab, Rock Slide, and Dragon Claw, depending on your needs. Don't use Head Smash. The power is too much for this guy to handle. Either ability he gets is good, albeit for different purposes. Moxie allows Scraggy to pick up steam for a sweep, while Shed Skin keeps him unhindered from most statuses. Generally speaking Moxie is better but the 1/3rd activation rate of Shed Skin isn't too bad either. He did good.

I haven't seem it in action, but something tells me that Contrary Malamar is really good. Superpower that BOOSTS attack and defense? I saw it use that on me, and that was honestly scary... Filter Mr. Mime also seems pretty good, considering how great of a typing Fairy/Psychic is for Gardevoir in this game. As for people wondering about Jigglypuff... you don't find them until just before the 8th gym. Aka horrible. I wish Jigglypuff were in the early game for at least early game utility like gen 1 and 2, but the Puff is doomed to the box, coming in at a hefty level 50 but with nothing left to do and a bad BST even with its recent sp.atk buff.

bonus:

In-game Trade Farfetch'd: Sweeps the first gym with Aerial Ace!!! This may be Farfetch'd's first and last moment of glory.

[Shotguner159]

Charizard is not getting Flare Blitz until the 70s

Charzard can get Flare Blitz from the move relearner in X/Y.

[Sasori]

How about Haunter/Gengar. It comes late, but once you get one it can pull its weight around. Gengar is fast, strong and has a massive move pool consisting of Dazling gleam, thunderbolt and stab moves like shadow ball and sludge bomb for the fairies.

Mega Gengar also has 170 special attack and 130 speed and it gets some extra bulk as well.

[Refa]

If this is like every other Pokemon game ever, then the starters should be in their own tier for being able to solo the game while no other Pokemon can claim that.

Starter solo is THE way to speedrun.

Edited October 22, 2013 by Refa

[Espinosa]

How early can you change Diggersby's ability to Huge Power (if at all)?

If this is like every other Pokemon game ever, then the starters should be in their own tier for being able to solo the game while no other Pokemon can claim that.

Starter solo is THE way to speedrun.

The B/W starters were at least a level worse than their predecessors. But even if they do solo the fastest, that's kind of a poor way to tier.

[Tamanoir]

How early can you change Diggersby's ability to Huge Power (if at all)?

The B/W starters were at least a level worse than their predecessors. But even if they do solo the fastest, that's kind of a poor way to tier.

Not before you have acces to Friend Safari, I'm afraid...

Also, I haven't tried it but Azuril should be a pretty cool Pokemon.

[shadykid]

If this is like every other Pokemon game ever, then the starters should be in their own tier for being able to solo the game while no other Pokemon can claim that.

Starter solo is THE way to speedrun.

yeah well Mega Lucario>your starter once you get it

[XeKr]

The implication being that they are typically chosen to speedrun because they reliably have 100% availability without going off-path and ohko the most things with the least investment. There are obviously many other real-time considerations, however, of various debatable importance, that both help or are against starters. For example, obviously speedruns also won't take into consideration the encounter and catch rate of non-starter pokemon, as they'll just reset until it occurs. But this might be something that matters (alot?) to other players.

Just glancing at the Kalos starters specifically: Chespin is slow and Grass sucks. Fennekin gets no good fire stab (Blaze implications) for forever. Froakie is probably decent from early Surf access but low defenses makes it harder to setup X items. (btw I dropped Greninja b/c I didn't really like him, not because he wasn't that good)

Meanwhile, Lucario is part Steel (nerf only somewhat matters against ghost), and is slinging around what can be Adaptability Power-Up-Punch/Aura Sphere/Close Combat from 145/140 base atk/spatk. Coverage is a minor issue (it's stuff like Rock Tomb, Shadow Claw, etc), but I'm not sure how much it matters, but probably a bit against fliers.

bros it's actually all about that Drought+STAB+Blaze Flamethrower off 159 base spatk

Edited October 22, 2013 by XeKr

[Shimmachi]

Charzard can get Flare Blitz from the move relearner in X/Y.

derp. I only remember seeing Dragon Claw and Shadow Claw, for some reason. Maybe I'm too used to Heat Wave spamming L1 Charizard in PMD. But that's a different story.

Grant is mostly all about that silly Tyrunt, Aurorus (or whatever the pre-evolution is called) apparently loves to spam Take Down and is pretty much destroyed by anything with Rock Smash. Tyrunt is annoying due to Dragon cancelling out the Grass and Water weaknesses, so Quilladin and Frogadier aren't beating it easily. thank god for combusken, all heil combusken

Starter solo isn't really a good idea... Fennekin has issues with Grant, Chespin's slow (still one-shotting vivillon), and Froakie's just mediocre, as far as i can tell, earlygame.

[Don Draper]

.

Edited July 5, 2020 by Don Draper

[shadykid]

derp. I only remember seeing Dragon Claw and Shadow Claw, for some reason. Maybe I'm too used to Heat Wave spamming L1 Charizard in PMD. But that's a different story.

Grant is mostly all about that silly Tyrunt, Aurorus (or whatever the pre-evolution is called) apparently loves to spam Take Down and is pretty much destroyed by anything with Rock Smash. Tyrunt is annoying due to Dragon cancelling out the Grass and Water weaknesses, so Quilladin and Frogadier aren't beating it easily. thank god for combusken, all heil combusken

Starter solo isn't really a good idea... Fennekin has issues with Grant, Chespin's slow (still one-shotting vivillon), and Froakie's just mediocre, as far as i can tell, earlygame.

Flare Blitz is terrible in a speedrun, you'd have to constantly heal

[dondon151]

Starter solo is THE way to speedrun.

no! nidoking solo is THE way to speedrun!

doesn't one of the faster B/W strats use coil serperior? B/W had pretty weak starters, but they also gave you a pokemon that gets a free setup by itself.

[HeoandReo]

Just going off of what I have so far:

Furfrou: Really good as an earlygame tank thanks to Fur Coat. Falls off pretty fast though since your guys are likely going to be evolving soon after you get him.

Mawile: Steel/Fairy makes it a hell of a lot more viable than it's ever been, since it becomes quite a bit bulkier. Fake Tears + Fairy Wind makes for decent STAB despite its low Special and beats Grant and Korrina pretty easily, though the lack of Mega Evolution until postgame hurts it a ton. I don't know. Maybe low middle to high low?

Kangaskhan: This thing is crazy. STAB Fake Out for free damage to start, follow up with Return/Chip Away/Shadow Claw/later Crunch. Fast, strong, bulky and comes at a pretty good time, granted it has to rely on Rock Smash for Grant. Give it Power-Up Punch after Korrina and it can set up while attacking. If it comes with Scrappy, it's even better. Easy High, at worst high-mid in my opinion.

Edited October 23, 2013 by HeoandReo

[Titamon]

I don't see how anyone uses Serperior in speedruns. He doesn't even learn coil until the 30s, thats a long time for him to be mediorce.

[shadykid]

no! nidoking solo is THE way to speedrun!

doesn't one of the faster B/W strats use coil serperior? B/W had pretty weak starters, but they also gave you a pokemon that gets a free setup by itself.

you're one of the speedrunners, why don't you ask yourself!

Just going off of what I have so far:

Furfrou: Really good as an earlygame tank thanks to Fur Coat. Falls off pretty fast though since your guys are likely going to be evolving soon after you get him.

Mawile: Steel/Fairy makes it a hell of a lot more viable than it's ever been, since it becomes quite a bit bulkier. Fake Tears + Fairy Wind makes for decent STAB despite its low Special and beats Grant and Korrina pretty easily, though the lack of Mega Evolution until postgame hurts it a ton. I don't know. Maybe low middle to high low?

Kangaskhan: This thing is crazy. STAB Fake Out for free damage to start, follow up with Return/Chip Away/Shadow Claw/later Crunch. Fast, strong, bulky and comes at a pretty good time, granted it has to rely on Rock Smash for Grant. Give it Power-Up Punch after Korrina and it can set up while attacking. If it comes with Scrappy, it's even better. Easy High, at worst high-mid in my opinion.

lol Fake Out in a quick run

[dondon151]

you're one of the speedrunners, why don't you ask yourself!

well i also used like 40 pokemon!

fake out is a good filler move but it hardly matters at all in-game.

[PM ME MARIANNE ART]

Once Noivern gets going it kicks ass. Hurricane stands up to even the champion's pokemon and to add to the awesomeness, Noivern is insanely fast as well. It's problem is being underleveled, but with the exp share it should be tearing things up in a couple levels.

[eclipse]

Scraggy: Upper mid? Don't stay in against anything with a fairy type move. Even Disarming Voice from Espurr is pretty much a death sentence for this guy. Otherwise, he's very good. Scrafty is not very fast and its movepool trends towards borderline suicide. Evolves kinda late, but gets High Jump Kick pretty early for its power, learns Crunch at a pretty good time, and picks up some decent coverage in Dig, Poison Jab, Rock Slide, and Dragon Claw, depending on your needs. Don't use Head Smash. The power is too much for this guy to handle. Either ability he gets is good, albeit for different purposes. Moxie allows Scraggy to pick up steam for a sweep, while Shed Skin keeps him unhindered from most statuses. Generally speaking Moxie is better but the 1/3rd activation rate of Shed Skin isn't too bad either. He did good.

Okay, my thoughts (since I caught one, and immediately decided that she'd be on my team. . .)

Scraggy's first appearance will be at the second gym. Once it hits level 20, it learns Brick Break. This WILL OHKO Amaura, and if you have Moxie, you'll take out Tyrantrum right behind it (in other words, it completely trivializes the second gym). Between that, there's a section that features some Dark Pokemon for free experience (Sandile and trainer Houndours come to mind), which makes leveling it not too bad. If you don't mind a small gamble, it'll do pretty good damage to Lucario. After that is Korrina - it should be JUST bulky enough to take a hit from something that's not Machoke, but I wouldn't bank on this (my memory's kinda foggy). Ramos is neutral (well, expect for Jumpluff, but screw Jumpluff), because none of his Pokemon can do anything about Crunch. If you teach Scraggy Rock Tomb, it'll be able to do something about Emolga in Clemont's gym, and it'll naturally kick the everliving daylights out of Magneton. After that is lolValerie, followed by Olympia (get Moxie off of Slowbro, and don't look back) and Wulfric (also known as Scraggy's Fun Time).

I found that I didn't need Hi Jump Kick - Brick Break was sufficiently strong enough to last me all the way through the E4. Scrafty's draw for me, IMO, was being decently bulky while self-buffing with Moxie. If it wasn't for the fact that it's a complete and utter PITA to catch, I'd put it in High.

bonus:

In-game Trade Farfetch'd: Sweeps the first gym with Aerial Ace!!! This may be Farfetch'd's first and last moment of glory.

I used my Farfetch'd until the fourth gym, when I had to retire him because I ran out of room in my party. After laughing at the first gym, and being benched during the second, he was damn helpful in the third gym, and soloed Ramos using Acrobatics. If Jagen was a Pokemon, he'd be Farfetch'd.

[Ein]

oh yeah

The Honedge line is fantastic in the game. It can completely wall or shut down certain trainers. Honedge itself seems to have some trouble doing much until it evolves into Doublade then you can safely give it the Evolite for even more defense. Evolite Doublade is more than enough but I've taken a liking to crushing everything with Aegislash's sweeping capabilities thanks to Shadow Sneak and Sword Dance coupled with Iron Head, Sacred Sword or King's Shield.

Edited October 23, 2013 by Ein

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

SD Farfetch' D solo is da only wai!

Which is surprisingly easy back then because Gen 1 Farfetch D is good in a bizzare way lol

I don't see how anyone uses Serperior in speedruns. He doesn't even learn coil until the 30s, thats a long time for him to be mediorce.

Growth

Edited October 23, 2013 by Choujin Sentai Chesnaught

[Shimmachi]

Flare Blitz is terrible in a speedrun, you'd have to constantly heal

i don't recall ever mentioning about speedrunning with Flare Blitz? also it's talonflame's best form of offense, so it's definitely a good option. (his other options are flamethrower and flame charge, neither of which are as strong as flare blitz). charizard can work with flare blitz too, although i think it'd have a much better time just tossing flamethrowers into somebody's face (does tough claws boost flare blitz? if so c-x might have some fun times with flare blitz)

i was also under the impression that servine's main problem isn't access to boosting moves, but his lack of actually decent stab (leaf tornado isn't strong enough)...