Healer Mafia - D6 ends on Dec. 15 at 8:00 PM HST

[Percivalé]

I don't get what you're trying to say. I'm talking about nullreads, not townreads. And I already said that was more directed at BBM than anything. I'm tired of his wishywashyness.

I don't want to lynch Shinori.

[Prims]

no we're not lynching the counterwagon to the d1 scum lynch who eury tunneled on for all of d1 lmao

see this post for why shinori's claim is a townclaim.

[BBM]

@Scorri- I'm not a passive role. I did idle though.

@Grass- Eclipse in Fakeclaim was different. She wanted to be lynched for associative reads. I, at the time, would have preferred my role to get lynched over Town!Eury's.

@Prims- Eury's role was enough to change my view on her alignment, as I said yesterday. Scum Watchers aren't that common. You're also sticking to your case and not responding to my defence. I'd like you to do that. Also, my wagon could have easily sprung up. Everyone currently voting me except Objection was also suspicious of me on D1, and other than Kirsche, were there at deadline. You + Bizz + Vhaltz would have been 4 votes by itself, and if you'd really tried you probably could have pushed me over the other wagons. That was another thing that turned me off the Eury wagon- the amount of people voting there who found me scummier and were choosing to vote Eury anyways, even with several hours for a lynch on me if they wanted.

@Bizz- Yeah, there were a bunch of people unsure about Eury's alignment. You'll notice, however, that none of them were actually voting for Eury. And what Grass said is true. I don't have a strong read on you at the moment and I'm not going to force myself to take a stance on you at this very moment when there's no reason to do so. Also before that post I have never expressed suspicion of you. The most I said was that I disagree with/don't understand the reasons behind your reads, and that I didn't like that you didn't give a reason for why you found me suspicious when you voted me D1. Neither was supposed to be an indication of suspicion (the latter was more an expression of frustration).

@someone (SB?)- That's just it. Prims said in that post, while pushing the hardest for Eury's lynch, that he thought she was more likely to flip town. At the time, that seemed pretty bad to me. Eury has since flipped mafia and this action makes no sense from a scumbuddy so I think he's town, but I think that with the information I had before the lynch, what I said was perfectly validated.

@Kirsche- You can find someone voting for you suspicious. That doesn't make it an OMGUS. An OMGUS is when you vote someone simply for voting you.

Anyways this post is long enough so more in the next one.

[Percivalé]

@Bizz- Yeah, there were a bunch of people unsure about Eury's alignment. You'll notice, however, that none of them were actually voting for Eury.

I don't get this because I was voting for Eury too............

[Percivalé]

I totally misread your post nvm. Still don't really get it though.

[Prims]

Vhaltz went to bed after his Eury vote.

Scum Watchers are common enough that it doesn't justify interpreting her claim as being as townie as you did.

You're 100% the scummiest player alive and I'm not backing off this case until you get lynched or vigged (or clear magic happens).

Also, I didn't say Eury was more likely to flip town, just that rolespec said double town wagons seemed plausible.

[Percivalé]

Yeah, what I don't understand about your case BBM is that if I was unsure about Eury but still voting for her, how does that make me worse than the people who were unsure and didn't?

Also rereading late D1 makes me think Elie isn't as scummy as I thought because of his comment on the Eury wagon, it doesn't feel like mafia frustration to me.

[BBM]

Well, the reason I think it might be scum-scum interactions is because it feels to me like you might have been trying to vote her to look good if she did end up getting lynched, but were still on the lookout for any possible way to switch to someone else and divert the lynch.

@Poly- uh, you know that Eury was actually Watcher right? It wasn't a desperate fake; it was her real role without the scummy bits. Inclined to see this as a townslip because her scumbuddies would know her real role, but you should read more carefully.

Reread Shin a little and I don't really like how he dropped his SB case randomly overnight. Eury's #1 scumread was Shinori, not SB. With knowledge of her flip, SB was more like a secondary scumread that she was forcing herself to have because people were saying she didn't have any reads other than Shinori. And that could go either way as far as association goes. And going off what he said at night, his only real scumread atm is Venno? His read there can be summed up as Venno active lurking because he's not really doing or saying anything to contribute. That's okay, but then his reasoning for not being sure about Grass being scum is that he feels his buddies would have given him stuff to say. In that case, why couldn't Venno's buddies have given him more to say? In fact they'd be much more likely to give things for Venno, who's in his first game here, over Grass, who's not really a new player anymore.

blah my internet is cutting in and out so I'm going to post this while it's here.

[Shin]

##Vote:BBM

I'm not voting you because you're playing to your cum meta, I'm voting you because you were awfully hesitant of the Eury wagon and you attempt to smear everyone that has a suspicion of you. (Including Objection! although he's been your most justified suspicion IMO). Also Eury's null read on you:

In all fairness, that's BBM for you!

BBM's point about Bizz would hold some water if he actually made mention of the people who actively opposed the wagon. However, I very much doubt scum would benefit from an experienced member offered to sacrifice himself for someone else, but I also doubt how offering himself to be lynched would sway anyone. I'm not particularly fond of his reasoning against Bizz nor his omission of Eli. I had been reading town on BBM during the night, but I'm becoming less convinced rather quickly. I can't quite remember why BBM was so convinced on Eury's role... it didn't seem to bother anyone else!

Eli, can I ask why you opposed the Eury wagon? You never really said very much about Eury before then, did you have any particular opinions?

Objection hasn't really improved at all from Day 1. He has literally added nothing to the game other than prodding people with questions long since answered (SB said he wasn't going to roleclaim and BBM gave his odd reasons for his Eury defense). I feel he's trying to cruise by letting everyone else do the work, I can't really name one point where's he's actively contributed to anything.

Venno, I'd be careful with Eury's reads. I'd imagine she'd have been instructed to mix a few of her team in with her scum reads.

##Vote: Objection

No improvement at all. I'll read into other ISO's when I get the chance, but Objection currently looks the worst in my opinion.

[BBM]

Reread Refa- Why are you looking only at one side of the association spectrum (Shinori's feelings about Eury) and not the other (Eury's feelings towards Shinori)? Other than that, his random opinion-shift on SB in the middle of D1 still bothers me, and I don't like that when people ask him to clarify, he either ignores them or answers completely facetiously. That's not really a lot though so idk about him yet.

Anyways, out for a while.

[Grassbridger]

-Grassbridger, are you seriously saying noone has done anything obviously townie? Considering scum was lynched just the previous day, I find this rather hard to believe.

I haven't done that promised reread of late D1 yet. Prims claimed a lot of people, particularly Vhaltz, were obvtown off the Eury flip, and he might be right but I haven't looked yet. Sorry, I've just been super busy with family stuff due to Thanksgiving and then trying to cram in work around that.

@Grass- Eclipse in Fakeclaim was different. She wanted to be lynched for associative reads. I, at the time, would have preferred my role to get lynched over Town!Eury's.

She was also vanilla and part of her reasoning (I think) was that her role wasn't that useful anyways. But, sure.

[Shinori]

Work sucks and I'm tired as shit.

I'll attempt to get a post of some sort down today before I hit the hay.

[Refa]

no we're not lynching the counterwagon to the d1 scum lynch who eury tunneled on for all of d1 lmao

see this post for why shinori's claim is a townclaim.

Shinori's wagon wasn't a counter wagon, it started long before the Eury wagon did. Yes she tunneled on him all day long (presumably every day if they were both alive the next day?), but I don't agree with your conclusion. OK, so she voted him fairly on (#73) because he was acting weird and his tone was bad. That's like, her only issue with him for the longest time. It's weak and I doubt anyone would be particularly bothered if she switched to SB. To be fair, it could also be newb scum, as scum have generally have a harder time coming up with concrete cases than town. Regardless, notice how she exchanges a lot of words with Shinori presumably arguing but nothing actually gets said in the end. What does this accomplish if neither of them are actually making an active effort to scumhunt the other? Oh, right, distancing. In the meantime, Shinori's and SB's wagons get tied up, and Eurykins has like one vote on her (bottom of Page 8). Next Eury post (#196), and SB and Shinori are still tied, albeit at 4 votes. In the meantime between that and her next post, the SB lynch has been closed off (so as to speak) and she has become a viable wagon. I'm assuming her role would be more important than whatever Shinori's role is, so I can see why she'd continue to bus him from that point on.

Also your post of how Shinori's role claim is towny is a load of bollocks, because who are you to say if he's misreading his role PM or just making up a bunch of crap on the spot? Elieson did the same thing in Fakeclaim, and he certainly didn't flip as town.

"But Refa", you the avid observer say, "you're only looking at things from the angle of Shinori being scum. Couldn't he also be town as well?" Maybe, let's look for the town intent in his actions! OK, well...him not holding on his weak Grassbridger vote is good, I guess. And...uh...his claim conflicting with Eurykins...actually, if he really was basically a Watcher with some other stuff, I question why he wasn't more suspicious of Eurykins for claiming watcher. Like this just makes me feel worse about his hard waffling on Eurykins. I can't think of any other townie things he's done, even from looking at his ISO. I concede that not every townie will have town tells coming out the wazoo, but there's a difference between a player who isn't obvious town and a player who's done scummy things but not really any towny things (that I can see, anyways). But surely you guys can tell me of his town actions, considering you're townreading him and all.

Well, the reason I think it might be scum-scum interactions is because it feels to me like you might have been trying to vote her to look good if she did end up getting lynched, but were still on the lookout for any possible way to switch to someone else and divert the lynch.

I'm confused, are you scumreading Bizz or not?

BBM's point about Bizz would hold some water if he actually made mention of the people who actively opposed the wagon. However, I very much doubt scum would benefit from an experienced member offered to sacrifice himself for someone else, but I also doubt how offering himself to be lynched would sway anyone. I'm not particularly fond of his reasoning against Bizz nor his omission of Eli. I had been reading town on BBM during the night, but I'm becoming less convinced rather quickly. I can't quite remember why BBM was so convinced on Eury's role... it didn't seem to bother anyone else!

Actually, this is a good point. And I don't buy his logic about scum!watchers being particularly uncommon, therefore he read Eury as town.

Reread Refa- Why are you looking only at one side of the association spectrum (Shinori's feelings about Eury) and not the other (Eury's feelings towards Shinori)?

Fair enought, I did actually look into the other end in this very post though, soooooo....yeah.

My lynch priority is still Shinori > Objection > BBM. Already stated my position on Shinori. BBM bothers me because some people have brought up good arguments, specifically the one I quoted above and his willingness to get lynched despite being proven town from his POV. Reason he's not above Objection is because, well...firstly I just have this gut feeling on Objection that I can't really explain, but it's annoying the hell out of me. And his (Objection) lack of effort overall is just blah. Secondly is because I am getting town vibes from some of BBM's arguments (off the top of my head, his Shin case, him claiming a weak ass role early on (if he backtracks on this, though...), his amount of town reads) and some of the arguments against him (not all, just a select few, like the kirsche one I replied a while back) I don't agree with at all and make me feel worse about lynching BBM. And the fact that he got to like L-2 in less than 24 hours is also really suspicious.

[Elieson]

Eli's comment on the Eury wagon just before phase end concerns me. There's also the fact that Eury said very little about him in her reads, which may actually give away more than she expected. I'd imagine she'd have been told to mix some of team in with her "scum reads".

BBM's leaning town for me, he's generally kept his composure and he's been responding pretty well to most things. The hesitance to lynch Eury would have been considered odd if he'd been the only one. Eli, BBM and Shinori have all shown reluctance to do so, either I found the entire scum team in one go or it's non-indicative.

• Why does my comment "concern" you? Am I a scumread, or am I just worth considering as a scumread due to your mind wandering?
• There wasn't much reason for Eury to say anything about me / attack me, because I wasn't up for being lynched, and it'd take a hell of a case to make me be the lynch target for the day unless everyone suddenly forgot how to play mafia.
• You forgot Refa Primarily, reason to not lynch Eury revolved around Rolespec, similar to pretty much anyone claiming Doctor at last minute to save their skin. I personally don't find Shinori scummy for not being all aboard the Eury wagon.

BBM wanting to get lynched, just wat? Yes I agree with everyone that it is a bit weird and maybe a scum tell. I never saw a reason to protect Eury aside from her claim and explanations would be nice thank you. Also, yes I'm reading you as scum.

Elie, what is this supposed to be again?

Why? Did you seriously expect to stop a wagon by saying she's town and adding no reason whatsoever? Although this can be justified by the fact that it was very near to deadline... But there's also the fact that it's next to impossible to lynch someone else at the point, any very convincing reasons to not vote Eury, not even for consolidation?

And lastly, SB what is your role? Or if you're not willing to claim, who did you target last night since you gave the impression of not being a vanilla?

I didn't agree with the logic and build speed of the Eury wagon. Simple enough, I suspected more scum were present on the wagon at the time due to a variety of null reads across the board, plus being more suspicious of SB due to early game shenanigans, and BBM due to other reasons. I also didn't expect to stop the lynch due to:

• not having a better case for someone else
• not having the time or ability to formulate a better case
• simply having a forced null read in general on Eury, and not being settled on the lynch myself

This portion is quite possibly the scummiest thing I've seen since that sandwich I left in my gym locker in 9th grade over summer vacation.

Also, it's never a good reason to get yourself lynched as town unless your role specifically benefits town by no longer being around, and in that case, claiming it to get yourself lynched would be optimal play IMO. Reads scummy, null at best.

As for the Courier's questions, 6 is obviously yes. I'll answer the rest after I reread and post content about the stuff that happened after I went to sleep last phase. I felt BBM was a bit different from usual last phase, but that doesn't mean he's scum unless he's playing to his scum meta so I guess I need to reread AM/PM or something.

Shinori got courier'd?

Poly stop with the rolefishing.

My bad, I dunno why I thought Shinori was Courier'd. Just skimmed over it on my phone and that's what I remembered.

I'm not particularly fond of his reasoning against Bizz nor his omission of Eli. I had been reading town on BBM during the night, but I'm becoming less convinced rather quickly.

Eli, can I ask why you opposed the Eury wagon? You never really said very much about Eury before then, did you have any particular opinions?

Objection hasn't really improved at all from Day 1. He has literally added nothing to the game other than prodding people with questions long since answered (SB said he wasn't going to roleclaim and BBM gave his odd reasons for his Eury defense). I feel he's trying to cruise by letting everyone else do the work, I can't really name one point where's he's actively contributed to anything.

I opposed the Eury wagon moreso because I didn't favor it, (also look above to my bullet list for reasons). I didn't want to just consolidate on a lynch that I wasn't more than 50% confident in, and I really wasn't.

Arguably the most concise case for Objection all day.

[Vennobennu]

Scorri - I didn't mean to offend you personally, and if I did, I apologize for that. I wasn't trying to get after you for being busy (that'd be pretty hypocritical of me to do),and that random 'he' was a typo. Mafia games often require one to be abrasive, but rest assured I don't really think less of you for having more important things to do than play games on the internet.

Now for some game talk:

Objection!. Apart from what's been said about him already, I don't like how he's failed to meaningfully address the accusations against him. I don't want to be too hard on people for being inactive anymore since IRL issues are a thing (apparently his were a joke???), but his explanations for his inactivity are overall unsatisfying. If you don't have the time or inclination to busy yourself with Mafia, that's alright, but you should seriously consider asking for a sub.

Shin: I realize that Eury definitely wasn't being truthful with her reads, but my thinking is that, with the weaker cases, she knew that they were town and couldn't come up with a strong argument for their scumminess, but did it anyway to cast some doubt on them. This is starting to get into 'I know you know I know you know' territory though, so I agree that anything you take from her reads should be taken very carefully.

Objection has fewer votes than I thought he did. I can feel pretty confident in:

##Vote: Objection!

I still feel scummy about BBM and Shinori, but Objection has a more clear-cut case in my eyes.

Current vote tally:

BBM (6) - Vhaltz, Bizz, Prims, Objection!, kirsche
Objection! (5) - BBM, Polydeuces, SB, Shin, Vennobennu

Shinori (1) - Refa

My priorities: Objection>>BBM>Shinori >>>>>>> scorri/kirsche/SK > rest

And with that I'm going to bed. Don't hammer anybody while I'm asleep please!

[Prims]

whats cool about this day is that these are both good lynches

I just can't see Shinori's interactions with Eury and claim context being faked. I understand why you could think he's scum anyway but won't support a lynch on him barring major revelations.

[BBM]

Elieson, what is the scum intent in wanting to get yourself lynched? Also, who do you find scummier, me or Objection?

@Refa - I'm not scumreading Bizz, just explaining reasoning for why she's no longer a townread of mine.

[Grassbridger]

Shinori's wagon wasn't a counter wagon, it started long before the Eury wagon did. Yes she tunneled on him all day long (presumably every day if they were both alive the next day?), but I don't agree with your conclusion. OK, so she voted him fairly on (#73) because he was acting weird and his tone was bad. That's like, her only issue with him for the longest time. It's weak and I doubt anyone would be particularly bothered if she switched to SB. To be fair, it could also be newb scum, as scum have generally have a harder time coming up with concrete cases than town. Regardless, notice how she exchanges a lot of words with Shinori presumably arguing but nothing actually gets said in the end. What does this accomplish if neither of them are actually making an active effort to scumhunt the other? Oh, right, distancing. In the meantime, Shinori's and SB's wagons get tied up, and Eurykins has like one vote on her (bottom of Page 8). Next Eury post (#196), and SB and Shinori are still tied, albeit at 4 votes. In the meantime between that and her next post, the SB lynch has been closed off (so as to speak) and she has become a viable wagon. I'm assuming her role would be more important than whatever Shinori's role is, so I can see why she'd continue to bus him from that point on.

Also your post of how Shinori's role claim is towny is a load of bollocks, because who are you to say if he's misreading his role PM or just making up a bunch of crap on the spot? (1) Elieson did the same thing in Fakeclaim, and he certainly didn't flip as town.

"But Refa", you the avid observer say, "you're only looking at things from the angle of Shinori being scum. Couldn't he also be town as well?" Maybe, let's look for the town intent in his actions! OK, well...him not holding on his weak Grassbridger vote is good, I guess. (2) And...uh...his claim conflicting with Eurykins...actually, if he really was basically a Watcher with some other stuff, I question why he wasn't more suspicious of Eurykins for claiming watcher. Like this just makes me feel worse about his hard waffling on Eurykins. I can't think of any other townie things he's done, even from looking at his ISO. I concede that not every townie will have town tells coming out the wazoo, but there's a difference between a player who isn't obvious town and a player who's done scummy things but not really any towny things (that I can see, anyways). But surely you guys can tell me of his town actions, considering you're townreading him and all.

(1) Elieson did a lot of lolclaiming in that game, IIRC. Shinori hasn't gone through 3 iterations of claiming, at least.

(2) Maybe he "should" have been more suspicious but OTOH scum having two watchers would be really weird. Shinori is only scum if he's lying about his role, and I think he wouldn't have claimed a teammate's role either. So Shinori is probably town.

[Percivalé]

but BBM I still don't see what I, as scum, would benefit from bussing my buddy and simultaneously attempting to start a counterwagon right before deadline? Because if Eury flipped anyway voting her wouldn't do anything to begin with, I'd still look awful for it. :selfmeta: but I don't do shit like that. But whatever it doesn't matter I think you're scum lol.

I like both of these lynches too tbh and still need to reread Grass/Poly/Kevin. I started on Poly but I'm not finished yet. Until then there's not much more I have to say because I'm fine with either lynch and will probably mostly only respond to things addressed to me until I reread these and present conclusions. It's going slowly but I'm catching up.

[BBM]

You still haven't explained how I was mudslinging yesterday.

Also, the odds of me and Objection being scumbuddies are not very high, so I don't understand how anyone can be simultaneously okay with both lynches, and it seems like a lot of people are. Yeah, associative reads without a flip are bad, but you should still not have a scumteam in your head that doesn't make sense together.

[Percivalé]

Can't know until one of you flips, BBM.

Also at the end of day phase yesterday you seemed VERY keen on making people unsure of everything and I can pull out the shit that bothered me the most but I'm about to watch Death Note. btw I asked you a question that you didn't answer, I've asked you it twice and you keep dodging my point.

[Grassbridger]

Also, the odds of me and Objection being scumbuddies are not very high, so I don't understand how anyone can be simultaneously okay with both lynches, and it seems like a lot of people are. Yeah, associative reads without a flip are bad, but you should still not have a scumteam in your head that doesn't make sense together.

<obvious response>

Just because you find multiple people scummy doesn't mean you think they'd be on a scumteam together. You can find both people in a 1v1 scummy, for instance, and be ok with lynching either of them. So, just because you're unlikely to be scumbuddies doesn't mean we shouldn't lynch one of you.

This is like the opposite of lining up lynches or something

</obvious response>

[BBM]

I responded to the question like two or three times already. I haven't dodged anything. "Well, the reason I think it might be scum-scum interactions is because it feels to me like you might have been trying to vote her to look good if she did end up getting lynched, but were still on the lookout for any possible way to switch to someone else and divert the lynch." Like you're trying to make sure that if she does get lynched you'll be voting her, but at the same time you're trying to see if there's any possibility you can get the lynch off.

idk I'm tired; I'll think about it more tomorrow. If that's not the question you're asking, repeat it.

Yeah I realized my logic was bad.

[Percivalé]

bbm wanted examples of what I felt was fearmongering/forced paranoia/etc and these are the biggest examples I found, especially in his #362.

I don't think Shinori's method of claiming is a townslip at all. In fact to me it reads like he claimed a Doc variant sort of thing to create panic, and then once people pointed out it was conflicting with the fact that Balc's flip says "no Doc variants" he backpedalled and changed it from "I stop the kill" to "I stop the killer the next night" to make it more like a Hooker than a Doctor.

in light of eury's flip, this is awful. It was already awful before because he was trying to sling shit on shinori who gained towncred to some people for his fumbled roleclaim.

Still don't support Eury lynch. If someone wants to go for someone other than Shinori, I guess Grass is the best turbo choice? Prims's "I think Eury is town but I support her lynch anyways!" is scummy. The last post where he said that selective effort is scummy is literally the only reasoning he's given for why I'm scummy beyond that I'm posting to my scum meta. He hasn't explained exactly how this is so either. Sadly he is probably not up for lynch today.

I think he bothers me here how he accuses Prims of wanting to lynch Eury despite thinking she is town, which I didn't get from hi posts?? and then turns around today with

Thoughts from Eury flip: Shinori, Vhaltz, Prims, Poly, and Scorri are all town, and Kirsche probably is too.

?????????????? like I realize eury's flip probably changed his mind but when he accuses Prims of doing a similar thing I did and then writing him off as town while sitting me as a nullread doesn't make sense.

@someone (SB?)- That's just it. Prims said in that post, while pushing the hardest for Eury's lynch, that he thought she was more likely to flip town. At the time, that seemed pretty bad to me. Eury has since flipped mafia and this action makes no sense from a scumbuddy so I think he's town, but I think that with the information I had before the lynch, what I said was perfectly validated.

if it makes no sense for a scumbuddy to do it why do you think I would do it.

But idk. The way he treated Shinori's claim before the flip was awful. I think that's probably what made me feel the worst about him. He tries to sling doubt on Shinori claim and when Eury flips suddenly all of that is gone. Also I'm not townreading Kevin (and BBM's Kevin townread felt ???) but this won't mean anything until one of them flips/I read Kevin's ISO so shrug.

And yes actually I did have reasons for suspecting Eury and I'm gonna emphasize that again.

Man there's a lot more but it's 4am and I'm going to have to take a break. I apologize but some huge personal issues came up and if they don't get better within the next 24 hours I'll need a temp sub. Just letting everyone know I guess. eclipse already knows.

[Percivalé]

Also, the odds of me and Objection being scumbuddies are not very high, so I don't understand how anyone can be simultaneously okay with both lynches, and it seems like a lot of people are. Yeah, associative reads without a flip are bad, but you should still not have a scumteam in your head that doesn't make sense together.

Oh yeah I forgot, I don't like this at all either. But Grass already explained why better than I could rn.