Healer Mafia - D6 ends on Dec. 15 at 8:00 PM HST

[Percivalé]

I'm gonna wake up tomorrow and probably only half of that is going to make sense and then I;;'m goign to want to explain it better but oh well

[Percivalé]

IDK he was all over the place before the eury flip & it's so confusing it feels forced to me

[Vhaltz]

Sheeping Prims and trying not to think too much about it is tempting after he built that D1 scum lynch but BBM has been pushed as scum all game (which I feel buddies would've attempted to stop somewhat before the defenses on him D2 started to come around) and I'm getting the feeling that a number of replies by BBM could go either way. Considering specific points BBM and Poly feel like scum on equal grounds but when weighing overall play instead of specific points I think Poly is definitely scummier and the safer lynch since I see myself less likely to be wrong about him than about BBM.

##Unvote

##Vote: Polydeuces

Refa's Shinori case reads... nice, the point about Eury claiming a very similar role to what Shinori claimed and Shinori waffling hard on Eury even then is something I feel stupid for not picking up on, and the explanation about why Eury would continue to tunnel on buddy!Shinori makes a certain degree of sense. Still think that it's too early to assume D1 dual scum wagons though, I'd wait to get more association reads before I consider lynching Shinori over other immediately scummier players. Feeling a bit better about Refa though.

Have to admit I've continued to consider Objection too easy a target so I've been skimming him and the cases on him a lot, I have a tendency to try to find scum amongst the stronger players and ignore the ones that are likely to get mislynched as town so I'll read into him sometime today.

@Bizz

Managed to pick up on most nicknames so far but who is Kevin?

Also hope those issues get better, your posts are pretty fun to read if that's worth anything

[The Objection!]

This portion is quite possibly the scummiest thing I've seen since that sandwich I left in my gym locker in 9th grade over summer vacation.

This made me laugh so hard looooool

Alright, since this is probably my last chance to defend myself, I'll try to make it count. I have a very good reason for rolefishing SB, since my role results last night said something very interesting about SB. SB, who did you target last night? Everything depends on this right now. I'll probably out my last night's results should I get to close to a lynch...

Venno, any reasons for voting me other than inactivity and 'everything that's already been said'? Any other opinions than inactivity? Why is everything I say about you hypocritical...

BBM looks kinda defensive? I dunno... I wouldn't mind if he was lynched instead of me though.

Poly, just because I was asking questions, doesn't mean that I was scumreading.

Reads:

Still waiting on SB's answer before anything else but here's some update.

Elie's answer looks reasonable, don't have much to say about him currently.

Venno's answer doesn't satisfy me as much, if you agree that lynching Eury is better than no lunch, then why did you not vote him? Reads like distancing to me.

Would stay at BBM but he already has enough votes currently, so I'll move to this.

##Unvote ##Vote: Venno

[The Objection!]

kevin is kirsche btw (at least as far as I know).

[Zkirsche]

I keep forgetting that telling myself to do rereads means that I will flake because ~effort~. I'm at a LAN so expect me to be even less memorable than I was before.

@Kirsche, why push Shinori for hesitating on Eury but not Refa, Elieson, Poly and others who did so too? Do you think that there were dual scum wagons D1?

When phase end panic was being induced I noticed Shinori more than those guys, so I think he's worse. Refa's defence of Elie and his case on Shinori makes me happy with him, undecided on Poly though. I have a bad habit of just skimming Poly/GB's/Bizz's posts and not really taking them in fully, and that's happened again here.

Objection >>> BBM >> Grass > Everyone else.

I feel like this lynch priority is either exaggerated or bad. Why is objection SO MUCH worse than BBM? I don't really view the stuff you summarised to be THAT terrible; is a weak Elie suspicion and voting Venno for keeping a vote that much worse than being overly defensive and panicky about a scum flipping?

[spoiler=God damn Vhaltz you say everything better than I ever could]

This just got me thinking. I think the actual reason why BBM's defensiveness feels so scummy this game is because he kept throwing some degree of FoS or OMGUS at the people suspecting him (see Kay and Prims). First time I played with BBM I wrote a case on him ED1 and kept it going for most of the day, he was defensive about it and went all self-meta about it and all that jazz, but it was more like he was trying to reason with me than to scold me for being wrong. His defensiveness is different not as much in how he writes his defenses but in how he has been following them up with his vote/actions.

I don't like this logic because I can name at least one case where this isn't true; Prims had been one of the first people to suspect BBM and BBM just said he was reading Prims as town

Oh man 1 or two counter examples. My argument is in tatters.

I ISO'd BBM and I noticed that in this post he says his only suspicion is Vhaltz and yet his vote is still parked on Kay. In fact, that Kay vote was kept all the way until his Eury vote towards the end of the phase.

You can find someone voting for you suspicious. That doesn't make it an OMGUS. An OMGUS is when you vote someone simply for voting you.

This is true, but you've been doing it to a lot of people. If it was just you having a suspicion on one guy for his reasons for suspecting you, it'd be ok, but you have repeatedly gone "you voted me you are scum because -reasons-" which makes me think that you are OMGUSing.

[Zkirsche]

And yes people are still calling me Kevin. Please stop.

[BBM]

bbm wanted examples of what I felt was fearmongering/forced paranoia/etc and these are the biggest examples I found, especially in his #362.

in light of eury's flip, this is awful. It was already awful before because he was trying to sling shit on shinori who gained towncred to some people for his fumbled roleclaim.

What? Just because some people found his method of claiming townie doesn't mean I have to. Refa is basically saying the exact same thing right now about Shinori's claim that I did yesterday. And I'm fully entitled to change my mind after a flip, especially a scum flip. Eury pushed Shinori all day; he might not even have been a counterwagon without her. Like, I admit my logic about not being able to find both me and Objection scummy was bad (it was 3am and I was tired), but after I get lynched, if I flip scum, would you still find Objection scummy? After I pushed him as a counterwagon to myself today?

I think he bothers me here how he accuses Prims of wanting to lynch Eury despite thinking she is town, which I didn't get from hi posts?? and then turns around today with

?????????????? like I realize eury's flip probably changed his mind but when he accuses Prims of doing a similar thing I did and then writing him off as town while sitting me as a nullread doesn't make sense.

Prims fully said in #304 that he says he found Eury town. And then his reasoning about me putting in baseless selective effort was a)wrong because I did in fact reread both Eury and Shinori and b)something that specifically required Eury to be town because the post in which I voted Eury, he said was scummy because I was gunning for her for arbitrary reasons, which only even makes sense if I'm pushing for her mislynch.

The thing that I see different between Prims and you is that he was still pushing Eury's lynch really hard. You just sat your vote there and then it felt like you were trying to find any hole to get the lynch onto someone else. I'm frustrated because this point makes perfect sense to me and I don't get why I'm having to explain this so much.

But idk. The way he treated Shinori's claim before the flip was awful. I think that's probably what made me feel the worst about him. He tries to sling doubt on Shinori claim and when Eury flips suddenly all of that is gone. Also I'm not townreading Kevin (and BBM's Kevin townread felt ???) but this won't mean anything until one of them flips/I read Kevin's ISO so shrug.

Again, I'm allowed to change my mind after a flip. Shinori and Eury don't make sense as buddies. Yesterday I was operating under the assumption after the claim that Eury was town. And again, I'm not the only person to have said what I did about Shinori's claim.

Kirsche was voting Eury the entire day. This isn't as big as someone voting her like right at the very end to put him over Shinori like Vhaltz and Poly/Scorri because it's possible it was just an early distancing vote that he didn't expect to turn into a wagon near the end of D1, but the vote really didn't feel forced to me.

Anyways this is probably the last defence post I'm going to write because I'm just repeating myself at this point and wasting all the mafia time I have to it is not very productive.

I don't even get Objection's reasons for switching off me. It's like he completely forgot everything he was saying about me earlier. And "I wouldn't mind if he was lynched instead of me"- considering part of his original case was that me wanting to get lynched was scummy, shouldn't he be okay with anyone getting lynched over him? And him keeping his vote on me doesn't mean he can't also push for Venno at the same time. And in fact this unvote came after Vhaltz's doublevote switched away from me so I really don't know what he's going for.

Poly is obvtown because even if he had a sudden 180 on Eury, his hop from Shinori to Eury made the votecount switch from 7-6 in favour of Shinori to 7-6 in favour of Eury. His vote directly got scum lynched over someone who is probably not scum and considering he'd been talking about how the Eury turbowagon blew, he could easily have kept his vote on Shinori. There was no reason for him to make that votehop as scum. Wouldn't support a lynch here at all.

Reread Grass- his Shin vote strikes me as really bad because one of the two main reasons he offers for it isn't even a scumtell. Not everything you do in a scum game is restricted to your scum game, and talking about waffles is completely non-indicative of alignment. I'm pretty sure he does it as town too. I don't really like that post on a whole too, he just kind of points out suspicious things without really making a proper case on anyone. It doesn't give me any sense of priorities other than that Shin is the worst and leaves him open to switch to any of around 5 people. After that, near phase end, he still finds Shin scummy for this same stuff, with no look into any posts he's made in the meantime. TBF I'm not exactly sure how many posts Shin did make in the meantime, but still. And then he hasn't looked into Shin at all today either. In fact he hasn't really scumhunted today at all, most of his posts deal with trying to come to grips on my alignment.

@Kirsche- Did you miss the part in that post where I said "other than that"? I was talking about people I'd consolidate on. And in fact I say why I don't like Kay's most recent post in that same post, just above. >_>

[Zkirsche]

Lord I saw that paragraph but scrolled up and down a bit and forgot where it was.

Meh, I don't really care for the Kay vote but I guess I have to concede this point.

[Elieson]

How I see Objection:

Provides a bunch of comments on townreads/nullreads, and one single scumread. Reads as tunnel-vision to me. (also that lol self defense)

I already commented on this smelly and unneccesary rolefishing

Wants BBM Lynched so he removes his vote on BBM and throws it onto a lesser scumread. In what world is this a wise thing to do, when it's not even close to a point of consolidation?

##Vote Objection!

[Zkirsche]

It took you a while for that vote to get dropped Elie.

[Refa]

whats cool about this day is that these are both good lynches

today is such a cool day

Elieson, what is the scum intent in wanting to get yourself lynched? Also, who do you find scummier, me or Objection?

If self voting is scummy, then surely wanting to get yourself lynched is too, if on a smaller scale.

I am definitely Elieson.

Refa's Shinori case reads... nice, the point about Eury claiming a very similar role to what Shinori claimed and Shinori waffling hard on Eury even then is something I feel stupid for not picking up on, and the explanation about why Eury would continue to tunnel on buddy!Shinori makes a certain degree of sense. Still think that it's too early to assume D1 dual scum wagons though, I'd wait to get more association reads before I consider lynching Shinori over other immediately scummier players. Feeling a bit better about Refa though.

Actually I thought of another explanation for this particular point which involves Shinori being ITP. The way I see it, if he was town he'd be more suspicious of Eury, if he was scum it's either a fakeclaim or he'd claim something else entirely (and thinking back, having a sort of 1v1 claim doesn't seem like the best move for scum), and the only alignment I figure he'd have no suspicion of town having a watcher as well is ITP. Why does this keep happening I don't even.

##Unvote

Considering specific points BBM and Poly feel like scum on equal grounds but when weighing overall play instead of specific points I think Poly is definitely scummier and the safer lynch since I see myself less likely to be wrong about him than about BBM.

##Unvote

##Vote: Polydeuces

I'm confused, why is Polydeuces a stronger scumread than BBM or Objection? I'd say he'd be an easier mislynch target (than Objection) if he's town, considering his track record.

The thing that I see different between Prims and you is that he was still pushing Eury's lynch really hard. You just sat your vote there and then it felt like you were trying to find any hole to get the lynch onto someone else. I'm frustrated because this point makes perfect sense to me and I don't get why I'm having to explain this so much.

BBM, people are generally not going to agree when you accuse of them of being scummy.

More general comments:

-Objection!'s last post is the worst. By that, I mean that I've noticed that when he's scum, he tends to overreact and get really defensive over little issues. And he didn't do that at all in his last post. :(

-Then again, his lack of reads still bothers me arghhhhhhh...

I'm just going to go with my gut on this one. The last time I tried to meta (Eury) didn't end so well, so...

##Vote: Objection

Please give more reads (OK, I understand SB and perhaps a few other people need to wait, but surely you can come up with more than two reads without your role related shenanigans) and explain why we shouldn't lynch you.

Also need to read Grassbridger's ISO, I could've sworn I was going to do that sooner.

[BBM]

Well, I get that Bizz won't agree with my point, but she's not the only one who doesn't agree with it. IIRC Shin changed his read on me partially because of that and I think somebody else also said it was bad?

Self-voting can be scummy because it's not helping the town. But it's not exactly helping scum either.

Something I forgot to say about Grass. In his post where he votes for me near deadline, #372, he says that he must have missed my opinion shift from voting for Eury to not wanting her lynched. Then next line he votes for me based on Prims's read on me even though that read is composed partially based on my opinion shift in the first place. That and some meta, except Grass doesn't even really like meta IIRC.

Also I think Objection is at L-1. I still think he's the scummiest but to prevent accidental hammer (or self-hammer), ##Unvote, ##Vote: Grassbridger. I think right now I go something like Objection > Grass > Shin. I'm going through all the people whose alignment I'm unsure of one by one; I think I just have Elieson and SB left. Though rereading Refa didn't really help so eh.

[Percivalé]

Well, I get that Bizz won't agree with my point, but she's not the only one who doesn't agree with it. IIRC Shin changed his read on me partially because of that and I think somebody else also said it was bad?

Maybe it only makes sense in your head then. This isn't meant to be snippy either, like I've already explained why it makes no sense to me so shrug. You responded to everything else and yeah it's fair to say it'd be shitty to waste more time on this.

ps i suck at mafia

And yes people are still calling me Kevin. Please stop.

oh god I didn't know you didn't like that, I won't call you Kevin anymore then. Yeah I actually don't like being called Bizz anymore and people are still referring to me as female but shrug it's whatever.

[eclipse]

EVERYONE - If you'd like to be called something else, do lemme know (but don't break my keyboard, kthx).

Votals will be edited in.

[Vhaltz]

Spent most day in bed because the rest of the house is cold as fuck today.

How I see Objection:

Provides a bunch of comments on townreads/nullreads, and one single scumread. Reads as tunnel-vision to me. (also that lol self defense)

I already commented on this smelly and unneccesary rolefishing

Wants BBM Lynched so he removes his vote on BBM and throws it onto a lesser scumread. In what world is this a wise thing to do, when it's not even close to a point of consolidation?

##Vote Objection!

This all feels like you're only pointing out objectively bad play and not explaining why anything is likely to come from scum though. I could get that you thought the first and second points were obviously scummy things, but why is the last thing scummy? Considering Objection's wagon is pretty big right now don't you think Objection!scum would want to push for his counterwagon in order to not get lynched?

I'm confused, why is Polydeuces a stronger scumread than BBM or Objection? I'd say he'd be an easier mislynch target (than Objection) if he's town, considering his track record.

I got the impression that Poly was a much more solid player from his D1 reads wall though? Like I said before I have virtually no meta on anybody but Prims/BBM/SB.

Objection I haven't reread yet but I like my Poly case over my BBM case because:

- BBM case may be a bit too reliant on meta and I haven't played with BBM!scum before

- I pretty much find all of Poly's play after his D1 wallpost to be scummy whereas I only think a few specific things that BBM has done are scummy and the rest of his content (which he has a lot more of) could go either way.

- I find it more likely that buddies would cautiously defend Eury but eventually give up and ride the bus for cred the way Poly did rather than blow things over the top as much as BBM.

I guess the best way to explain this is that I feel like my Poly case is solid no matter how I look at it but BBM could end up being town getting mislynched over an unfortunate blatantly bad association with a scumflip?

I want to say that the Objection lynch is dumb and that you should all just switch to Poly but gotta go read Objection so yeah.

Also the point that BBM brought up about Poly being town due to the timing of his switch to Eury is invalid because it can be seen the other way around if you actually check my take on that in my first D2 post. He hasn't really replied to any of my posts either so I'm pretty sure BBM has just given up on reading me and convincing me D2, which is also a thing since I'm doublevoter and I'm pretty sure scum would want me off their wagon.

[eclipse]

Votals, D2 the second

BBM (3) - Bizz, Prims, kirsche

Grassbridger (1) - BBM

Objection! (6) - Polydeuces, SB, Shin, Vennobennu, Elieson, Refa

Polydeuces (2) - Vhaltz

Vennobennu (1) - Objection!

Not voting - Shinori, scorri, Grassbridger

Here's the time to phase end~! You've got a bit under 45.5 hours remaining. Hammer is 8!

[Elieson]

It took you a while for that vote to get dropped Elie.

Eh, I wanted to be comfortable with voting before i just threw one down.

[Vhaltz]

Also it feels like kirsche might be subtly trying to buddy with me from the wording to the praise in that last post and the way he defended me from BBM during D1.

Actually kirsche, do you think Elieson is scummy from that late vote?

[Vennobennu]

Objection, it's mainly that your posts have a lot of words in them, but don't actually say very much. Yeah I can understand if you don't want to give away your role if it's not absolutely necessary, but there are several other topics/suspects that you could have reads on but still don't. That combined with accusing me based off of a hypothetical feel scummy to me.

Of course I'm not 100% sure that you're scum, but your case is the most convincing to me right now. Seeing your role results would make a big difference; and seeing as you're sitting at L-2 right now, you may want to post them soon in case a hammer gets dropped.

Eh. I'd better go and reread Poly and see what's what with him.

[Percivalé]

Vhaltz, it sounds like you don't want Objection lynch just because he doesn't seem like he's as strong of a player and he's an easy mislynch that way, which I'm not seeing.

[Zkirsche]

@Vhaltz: A little.

@Levity: It's ok I don't care that much. I'm not really sure what to call you if not Bizz though.

[Vhaltz]

Uh yeah that's pretty much what I said is on my mind regarding him atm, I also said I intend to reread him and stop ignoring him soon.

That "soon" is just taking a little longer to come around because it's specially cold today and my computer is in the second coldest place in the house.

[Percivalé]

it's ok just call me whatever tbh it doesn't matter at the end of the day.

k Real Post coming in a sec

[BBM]

Except if Poly hadn't switched, Shinori would have been lynched (or there would have been a lynch tie). Look at the people who were around who weren't voting Eury- Grass, Elie, Refa, Shinori- none of them were particularly enthused about the Eury lynch, and the latter three all stated explicitly that they thought she was town (though Shinori might have voted in not-me-over-me I guess).

Eury wouldn't have been lynched without that Poly vote; it wasn't too far gone at all. Also look at the time- it's like right after Scorri's vote switch. If the vote had been based on Eury threatening to surpass Shinori, and him deciding to just give up, he probably would have spent more than a minute thinking about the decision to bus Eury, and probably would have consulted his buddies or something too.

Also Poly townslipped earlier; if he was scum he'd know that Eury was actually Watcher and not just making a desperate fake.