Healer Mafia - D6 ends on Dec. 15 at 8:00 PM HST

[Elieson]

Elieson, what is the scum intent in wanting to get yourself lynched? Also, who do you find scummier, me or Objection?

I hope my vote indicates my opinion on who I find scummy. As far as the scum intent for wanting yourself lynched:

• It goes against the town wincon, and pretty much any role associated with the town wincon (unless something like Oracle)
• It distracts conversation of actual scumhunting because you're throwing up a big red flag that attracts discussion towards you instead of looking at other players and their behavior. Now we have to determine if you're throwing out AtE, if you're just tired of the game, or if you're on to something, etc.

This all feels like you're only pointing out objectively bad play and not explaining why anything is likely to come from scum though. I could get that you thought the first and second points were obviously scummy things, but why is the last thing scummy? Considering Objection's wagon is pretty big right now don't you think Objection!scum would want to push for his counterwagon in order to not get lynched?

Regarding the underlined, BBM is the counterwagon, and what did Objection do? He hopped off of the BBM wagon, pretty much unexplained, and decided to throw a vote onto an entirely different player that hasn't really been scrutinized to a point of pressure at all.

I want to say that the Objection lynch is dumb and that you should all just switch to Poly but gotta go read Objection so yeah.

So you're extremely confident in your Polyderps case, and you haven't really even looked at the Objection cases?

[Vhaltz]

Meant reread, not read. I've read the Objection cases but they didn't feel too memorable or different from the cases on him yesterday so I wasn't inclined to join the wagon anytime soon.

Like sure, the cases on Objection might be "stronger" objectively speaking due to generally accepted scummy things he has done but the general feeling of the game for me has pointed to him being derpy town, so of course I'm more confident in my own cases for people I think are more likely to flip scum. The callout on not reading Objection cases if you thought I didn't read them is fine but I'm really not liking how you seem to be taking advantage of that to discredit the Poly case.

Poly being likely to derp as town is new information to me (like I have already stated before) and it honestly doesn't feel that way from the way he played D1, but whatever.

Where did Poly say Eury was fakeclaiming?

[Vhaltz]

Okay I just found it, I'm really dumb.

Eury's claim was probably desperation fakeclaim, since Watcher could've worked well with Shinori's role... except Shinori had a better claim that sounded legit due to him divulging the specifics of how it worked, and he was the other major wagon.

I'd argue that it could've been faked, but if Poly has a history of being mislynched and being not that solid as town I figure chances are it isn't and he just didn't read D2 posts properly, actually not reading properly would also explain why he missed Prims misreading Kay's role as well.

Also checked Poly's posts in context and yeah without his vote the wagons would've been tied after Shinori voted not me over me.

##Unvote

Not really feeling like I want to put my vote back on BBM after that either.

Blegh, sorry I'm sucking a lot more than usual at this game guys, it's probably frustrating to deal with me when I'm adamant about something I'm wrong about, I might be getting too much of a confidence boost about my cases when people think I'm town. Gonna go and reread Objection and likely some other people because I don't think I want to lynch BBM or Poly anymore.

[Vhaltz]

I re-checked my Poly case and the way he replied to my accusation of defending Eury by saying he thought turbolynches in general blowed (and supporting an Objection turbo later) still stands, as well as the part where he defended BBM's "lynch me" posts with rolespec but added him to his suspect list anyway with subpar reasoning. But yeah, these could plausibly come from town having a derp moment so even if I handwaved the hypothetical townslip it doesn't feel anywhere as solid as it did before.

Don't see why BBM would want to actively kill my only other major suspicion like that as scum considering that I'm doublevoter, like he could still be scum but it would take balls to do that and he's already been close to a lynch earlier today. Has BBM commonly done gutsy things like that as scum before?

[charlie_]

Objection: no. I'm not hinting as to what I am and if you think I'm scum because of it or because you thought my role was scummy or something if you're a rolecop, you're being stupid. The way he posted it kind of seemed as if he was threatening me with it too which is really weird. As for stuff in the rest of the post, he waffles on BBM and misreps Venn, he seemed neutral on Eury and didn't vote her for the sake of not hammering early. That's hardly something you drop your top scumread for.

Poly's rolefishing is odd, if you were really curious about it I would've thought you would have asked about it day 1?

BBM's "I can't be scumbuddies with Objection" is really weird. Why? It's possibly you're both scum and Objection switched off of you to try and avoid going another man down Day 2 after a D1 maflynch. His clearing Poly on the fact that he didn't know that Eury was a Watcher is strange too, explain? If it's the thing Vhaltz quoted, I don't get it.

Venn's #520 "I'm not 100% sure" feels like he could be backing himself up in case Objection is a mislynch or claims something obvtown? Keeping my eye on it.

[Prims]

Elie is really lackluster this game. There's this huge wall of text responding to questions toward him and then his only scumread is Objection in a small post. I can barely remember anything he did D1. Would like more opinions from him.

I want to just coast on the BBM vote until he flips but apparently people stopped supporting that lynch. His recent posts have been better, too. Sigh. I think I'm going to be beating a dead horse if I keep my vote here but I don't fully trust him yet.

##Unvote

##Vote: Grassbridger

Weak content, passive defense of Eury combined with an attempt to last minute lynch BBM instead based on "I agree", and nothing today that makes me think better of him (although that is apparently just because he's busy).

Objection should claim now instead of later, I imagine his wagon's gonna be a big "thing" the entire day.

[Vhaltz]

Poly said that Eury's watcher claim was probably a "desperation fakeclaim".

The whole paragraph makes little sense in itself that I can tell, but thinking that Eury's watcher claim was fake means that he didn't really read Eury's flip beyond seeing that she was scum since Eury was indeed a watcher as part of her role. Poly being scum would mean that he'd be able to remember what his buddies' roles are off the top of his head.

I'm trying to ISO everybody real quick to tentatively decide who I want to vote next (it's past midnight here) but everybody else was varying degrees of null to town, except maybe Shinori based on Refa's case but I'm still pretty sure I wouldn't want to lynch him today. Might actually go to bed on an empty unvote if I don't find anything good in the next half hour.

[Prims]

vote grass imo

[Vhaltz]

Isn't BBM on Grass atm though? I thought you still found BBM scum somewhat from that last post

[Prims]

eh it's not worth WIFOMing myself over that without BBM's flip.

[Prims]

alternately you could just re-vote BBM, meta isn't that relevant to the case and an over-the-top blatant defense of scum actually has a chance to convince people and can be WIFOMed as "too obvious" which is something a subtle defense + bus is unlikely to do

[Vhaltz]

@Prims Just wanted to make sure you were aware.

Mitsuki is forcing me to stop playing mafia for today =/ I'll see about revoting BBM tomorrow if I have nothing else I prefer, WIFOMing the hard defense is one thing I guess but doing the equivalent of taunting the doublevoter back onto him would be retarded.

The only thing I was typing up for now was a thing about Objection that irked me and I wasn't going to vote him for it anyway because that'd be hammer so yeah. If it continues to be cold as fuck tomorrow I'll try to borrow my dad's laptop so I can finally get stuff done. Night~

[Prims]

Relationships are for nerds, mafia for life

The problem with him taunting the doublevoter on to him is that you had gone to bed and weren't going to be around for the rest of the day.

I dunno if I still want to lynch Objection after his softclaim. He should just out whatever he has if he's gonna tease like that imo.

[BBM]

WHIPPED

@SB- Well I guess what I said applied more to before his weird vote. But the only thing worse for mafia than a D1 scum lynch is successive D1/D2 scum lynches. It wouldn't make sense for me as scum to push my buddy as a counterwagon to myself because I'm basically guaranteeing a scum lynch that way.

Hmm, reread Elie. I think he's okay overall. His SB case was probably one of the better ones on D1 IMO. I originally thought he was around for longer before phase end, but he came in only like 5 minutes before. At the time he stated that he was against the Eury lynch, it really was too late to change it and there was no reason to state that he was strongly against it, if he was scum. He probably would have been like "yeah whatever Eury is okay as a lynch" or just not posted at all. "WIFOM" is an argument but I can't really remember Elie ever being one to do that. Leaning town for me. However, I do want him to follow up more on his D1 reads. His D2 feels disconnected from it; he hasn't really said much about SB at all today, which is weird considering he was Elie's top suspicion D1.

[Percivalé]

##Unvote

##Vote: Grass

shrug

very tired. thinking difficult. almost fell asleep writing case thing idk what it is

if anything BBM's unnecessary rolecrumb is the one thing making me doubt my read on him.

[BBM]

Also wrt the taunting the mayor back onto me, I think Vhaltz was referring more to me defending Poly today than me defending Eury D1.

[Prims]

ohhhh hm

i didnt see bbm's crumb btw

[Prims]

I dunno. Grass is a good lynch too and I'd be surprised if you guys were buddies.

[Percivalé]

it wasn't really a crumb more like "my role is lame and would be better dead than watcher" when eury claimed. idk, not 100% sure he'd do something like that as scum

[Prims]

well "lame roles" are the easiest to claim and crumb when you're mafia so i wouldn't put too much stock in it

sup necktie

[Percivalé]

no i mean the way he did it tho, not the crumb itself

[Grassbridger]

Reread Grass- his Shin vote strikes me as really bad because one of the two main reasons he offers for it isn't even a scumtell. Not everything you do in a scum game is restricted to your scum game, and talking about waffles is completely non-indicative of alignment. I'm pretty sure he does it as town too. I don't really like that post on a whole too, he just kind of points out suspicious things without really making a proper case on anyone. It doesn't give me any sense of priorities other than that Shin is the worst and leaves him open to switch to any of around 5 people. After that, near phase end, he still finds Shin scummy for this same stuff, with no look into any posts he's made in the meantime. TBF I'm not exactly sure how many posts Shin did make in the meantime, but still. And then he hasn't looked into Shin at all today either. In fact he hasn't really scumhunted today at all, most of his posts deal with trying to come to grips on my alignment.

If a player has a different posting style under different alignments, that could be indicative of something. I only remember Shin talking about random non-game-related things in every post when he was scum. But you're correct that I haven't evaluated this against his town play and it's probably meaningless, because otherwise it'd be a huge meta scumtell. WRT the bolded, pretty sure it was 0 or 1. Shin's night posts were eh. I found them uninspired but not really scummy. I don't even remember him posting during D2, but I could just be blending that in with his night posts.

Well, I get that Bizz won't agree with my point, but she's not the only one who doesn't agree with it. IIRC Shin changed his read on me partially because of that and I think somebody else also said it was bad?

Self-voting can be scummy because it's not helping the town. But it's not exactly helping scum either.

Something I forgot to say about Grass. In his post where he votes for me near deadline, #372, he says that he must have missed my opinion shift from voting for Eury to not wanting her lynched. Then next line he votes for me based on Prims's read on me even though that read is composed partially based on my opinion shift in the first place. That and some meta, except Grass doesn't even really like meta IIRC.

Also I think Objection is at L-1. I still think he's the scummiest but to prevent accidental hammer (or self-hammer), ##Unvote, ##Vote: Grassbridger. I think right now I go something like Objection > Grass > Shin. I'm going through all the people whose alignment I'm unsure of one by one; I think I just have Elieson and SB left. Though rereading Refa didn't really help so eh.

"I must have missed your opinion shift" was basically nitpicking at your language, since you said you "still" didn't support a Eury lynch, and that was the first post I'd seen where you supported a Eury lynch. But it was dumb since you had unvoted her to vote Shinori earlier, saying that her claim seemed townie. Dunno why I didn't take that into account.

Saying I don't like meta is just wrong, as you can see from how many bad meta arguments I tend to use.

##Unvote

##Vote: Grassbridger

Weak content, passive defense of Eury combined with an attempt to last minute lynch BBM instead based on "I agree", and nothing today that makes me think better of him (although that is apparently just because he's busy).

A lot of that late-D1 stuff (the Eury and BBM things you mentioned) was based on my confusion of thinking that hammer was required and wondering why people were content to just let the clock run out. I'm not going to claim my content's that great, though. I'll be putting in more effort starting roughly now, since while on a 3-day vacation with family this felt like a chore while now that I'm back at school it's an excellent way to procrastinate. >.>

##Unvote

##Vote: Grass

shrug

very tired. thinking difficult. almost fell asleep writing case thing idk what it is

if anything BBM's unnecessary rolecrumb is the one thing making me doubt my read on him.

It'd be nice if you could even mention why you're voting for me.

Soooo yeah I'm doing that thing I've done before where I'm aware of what BBM is doing and like 1 other person. That's not good. I'll try to change that.

But I'm not really finding people overly scummy based on today's content alone. I've got some townreads now, including one that is based on the conjunction of my role/action and another player's rolecrumb--feeling like I shouldn't out that. I'mma go read ISOs and see what sticks out.

[Percivalé]

It'd be nice if you could even mention why you're voting for me.

don't demand of me please. ask.

I've already stated I was okay with your lynch since yesterday and why, I'm just too lazy/tired atm to put the case together sorry

[Grassbridger]

Wheee I read some ISOs. LIST TIME

[spoiler=Townreads based on interactions - BBM SB Shinori kirsche]BBM - I've given my thoughts. I think his late D1 is more likely town than scum.

SB - All I really notice D1 is that there are role shenanigans floating about. He implies he hid a crumb in his first post; he implies that he has some role reason for unvoting Refa (hopefully); he gets rolefished by Eury and Objection at some point as well.

Also, he hardly mentions Eury. He asks her if her Shinori vote is purely for tone, and later says he's "not really too fussed about Eury".

Overall--I guess he looks good off Eury rolefishing him.

Shinori - I think he's town based on the claim. If his claim is legit, then it doesn't make sense for scum to have TWO watchers, and if it's not, I don't think scum would have fakeclaimed a buddy's role (especially one with votes on them).

kirsche - Pushes Eury very hard D1. Likely town from that. Could've been a bus since he wasn't around for phase end, and she wasn't a leading wagon until around then, but it's pretty unlikely IMO.

Bizz - leaning town in terms of overall content, but it's really annoying that they never explain why I'm scummy other than "he's scummy" or "that post is scummy" or "I'd like to lynch Grass". So yeah I'd like an answer to that please, since your vote is back on me now. That can be a laundry list of things I've done that are scummy, that's fine. But you should give some indication of why you're voting for me. (Cut by Bizz: First, that's not a demand. Second, yeah I know you've been ok with my lynch since yesterday but I've been asking you since yesterday for your case on me.)

Objection - His first real post feels like fluff... and so do like all of his others. Yeah I see why he's at L-1 (or L-2 now with the BBM voteswitch? still.) His content is extremely weak.

Vhaltz - Content has been very logical for the most part, but I'm not a fan of his votes:

1. votes Scorri for jumping on SB wagon with little other content. (Note: scorri wasn't sheeping like Vhaltz thought, which Vhaltz later admitted.) The vote post actually only mentions scorri with "I'd still like [her] lynched the most."

2. Votes me for inactivity, fairly late D1.

--interlude: lightens up on Eury from second scumread to barely-at-all-scumread--

3. Votes Prims on a read which is "nonsolid and nebulous"

4. Votes BBM without really explaining why the vote is going to BBM, other than "not Shinori". The strange thing about this post is that he entertains the possibility of hammering Shinori but also offers to switch to Objection if REALLY necessary to consolidate on a non-Shinori lynch. There's just a ton of contradictory things here. Why aren't you even mentioning Eury at this point, for instance? She's the obvious non-Shinori choice of lynch. If you object to an Objection lynch, you must object much more strongly to a Shinori lynch in order to offer to consolidate on Objection, but you're talking about hammering Shinori. What gives?

5. Finally votes Eury after Eury disappeared completely from his scumdar for a while. Mentions that he "realized his brain fart" but it's not clear what that is.

Also, Vhaltz and BBM are probably not scumbuddies.

Vhaltz's day 2 content is like... fine. I don't see anything particularly scummy or townie about it.

##Vote: Vhaltz

I only ISO'd the first half of the playerlist. I'll do the second half in a bit, after I get dinner.

[Grassbridger]

EBWOP

don't demand of me please. ask.

I've already stated I was okay with your lynch since yesterday and why, I'm just too lazy/tired atm to put the case together sorry

I missed the bolded when I first read it. It's just not true. I specifically reread your ISO multiple times looking for it. The only specific you've said is that my RVS vote on Prims seemed "detached." You also said "that post was so scummy" without explaining why.