Chiki Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 Years back I remember Mekkah and others claiming that it was unreliable to get Lex!Arthur and Tinny to low HP, but there's a very easy solution for this: lose in the Arena. Ambush and Wrath allow them to basically OHKO a lot of enemies without ever taking a hit, as long as you give some resources like a Magic Ring. It's not quite as awful as many think it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CT075 Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 (edited) i have been a supporter of lex/tiltyu for years now the biggest problem is that they fall off really hard once they stop ORKOing with crits (i don't have numbers on me but my experience is that this doesn't happen until late chapter 10 if their magic growth keeps up). they also have mage movement which is a pain in the ass (even moreso if you're going for efficiency) but this isn't limited to father lex; part two is that if lex is marrying tiltyu he isn't on the frontlines i still think it's a very solid option and is definitely viable for at least some forms of low turning (source: i've ended up with lex/tiltyu in multiple FE4 drafts and was the draft record holder for a while [admittedly this was a long time ago and people have gotten better since]) Edited March 17, 2014 by CT075 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sartek Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 (edited) i have been a supporter of lex/tiltyu for years now the biggest problem is that they fall off really hard once they stop ORKOing with crits (i don't have numbers on me but my experience is that this doesn't happen until late chapter 10 if their magic growth keeps up). they also have mage movement which is a pain in the ass (even moreso if you're going for efficiency) but this isn't limited to father lex; part two is that if lex is marrying tiltyu he isn't on the frontlines i still think it's a very solid option and is definitely viable for at least some forms of low turning (source: i've ended up with lex/tiltyu in multiple FE4 drafts and was the draft record holder for a while [admittedly this was a long time ago and people have gotten better since]) For me it always was the opposite. The children can't kill **** in their early carrier but start to become usable after promoting (thanks to brave sword access for Arthur and Thorron). I even recall someone posting the maths and showing that their average starting damages were too low for them to even OHKO anything. Edited March 17, 2014 by Sartek Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CT075 Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 the issue is that wind tomes suck personally i've always found that either a pursuit ring or magic ring on arthur (in drafts this isn't a lot to ask for but in standard play it's a little harder to justify) helps a lot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiki Posted March 17, 2014 Author Share Posted March 17, 2014 Who else wants the Magic Ring? Levin!Arthur doesn't exist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cymbalina's Revenge Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 For me it always was the opposite. The children can't kill **** in their early carrier but start to become usable after promoting (thanks to brave sword access for Arthur and Thorron). I even recall someone posting the maths and showing that their average starting damages were too low for them to even OHKO anything. My Lex!Arthur, even promoted, was more useful as a tank that could retaliate than as any sort of offensive machine. Tinny was useful after promotion thanks to Thoron and Continue but never really killed something when I needed her to even with Crits. The Wrath/Ambush combo was a fun stunt and occasionally useful (Arthur got me out of one real bind early in Chapter 8 with that skillset) but the kids just weren't dependable. I don't think I'd ever breed that pairing again, not on purpose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor Odinson Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 I'm usually in it for the Elite Arthur gets his horse fast and Tinny's not a horrible PITA to arenatrain I definitely prefer it over all of Tiltyu's non-Levin pairs and even with Levin it's a tossup Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CT075 Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 Who else wants the Magic Ring? Levin!Arthur doesn't exist.i actually have no idea lol i vaguely remember someone showing me a hilarious stunt with the magic ring on sharlow and the berserk staff but that's pretty niche the big thing is that arthur really needs some iffy magic procs early or it doesn't work; magic/pursuit ring mitigates this a lot but if he doesn't get any (i cbf to look up his growth but i remember it being pretty cointoss) he falls off really fast Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Refa Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 Celice likes the Magic Ring so he can ORKO the Axe Knights (I forget if he ever uses the Light Sword in later chapters) and get to promotion a lot faster. Can't think of anyone else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cymbalina's Revenge Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 i actually have no idea lol i vaguely remember someone showing me a hilarious stunt with the magic ring on sharlow and the berserk staff but that's pretty niche the big thing is that arthur really needs some iffy magic procs early or it doesn't work; magic/pursuit ring mitigates this a lot but if he doesn't get any (i cbf to look up his growth but i remember it being pretty cointoss) he falls off really fast My Lex!Arthur, without RNG abuse, gained exactly one (1) point of Magic... at level 27, IIRC. Plus his promotion bonus. Magic Ring doesn't help a lot with growths that bad. Should've had 5% Magic growths, same as Finn!Arthur, which has yielded some pretty fun results, so I realize this particular Lex!Arthur just got screwed. He was fun in his own way, especially with the early promotion, but it didn't work out like I hoped. [i had a Magic-screwed Ced that needed the other Magic Ring to contain Julia in that playthrough.] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Starwind Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 I don't think so. I mean wrath, ambush and elite in one package... sounds good to me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just call me AL Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 the issue is that wind tomes suck Isn't Fire the garbage magic type in this game? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 i think he means that they don't have enough MT, and all fire/thunder/wind tomes have the same MT at each level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just call me AL Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 (edited) i think he means that they don't have enough MT, and all fire/thunder/wind tomes have the same MT at each level. The bolded text is precisely why I asked. Especially since Wind is the lightest of the three anima types, IIRC. Edited March 17, 2014 by Just call me Al Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shin Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 It's a fun pairing, but Cam's right in that they stop ORKOing enemies after a certain point. If you're playing super efficiently, you can't actually get the pairing done in time, but for casual use, you need a magic ring and the pursuit ring to make Arthur more viable. His average magic with Lex is about 15 at level 30, which isn't quite enough to be critblicking stuff towards the end of the game, even with Thoron. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Refa Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 He probably does better with the Hero Sword, in all fairness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shin Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 He probably does better with the Hero Sword, in all fairness. I've actually done that, it's pretty hilarious. Plus there's the added bonus of having like a million hit! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 He probably does better with the Hero Sword, in all fairness. Fitting for the son of a Hero weapon user lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CT075 Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 i think he means that they don't have enough MT, and all fire/thunder/wind tomes have the same MT at each level. The bolded text is precisely why I asked. Especially since Wind is the lightest of the three anima types, IIRC.you're both correct; i'd be making the same assertion if arthur started with basic thunder or fire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narga_Rocks Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 The other problem is that Elthunder doesn't exist until Tinny and Arthur can't use any other B rank magic until he promotes, so... Yeah the whole wind sucking thing is legit. He's stuck with that and probably a thunder tome for beating fire enemies (to get a WTA instead of -20 hit) in case he's up against them. But I used magic ring + wind and I think he OHKOd stuff for a while anyway until promotion and thoron. It's just that if you don't also use a skill ring, one miss and (s)he's dead if you are trying to ambush/wrath everything. So magic ring + skill ring and then later thoron + skill ring + magic ring. I never thought of hero sword for the guy, but part of the appeal to this pairing is 1-2 range OHKOing on the ambush hit. Only one child can have Thoron so it basically makes the other one kinda locked into 1 range or not using their wrath since they don't OHKO. I basically stopped sending one of the children into wrath hp and it becomes this thing that barely hurts stuff but at least has some def. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverCrusader Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 I've used this pairing before and the only bad thing is low MAG (even with MAG rings..) and the fact that Elite becomes useless at Lv 30 (naturally). Other than that this is a good pairing that makes Teeny usable, I ALWAYS end up capping her level Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Refa Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 I don't see how Elite becoming useless at Lv30 (and really, you could argue that it becomes obselete after Lv20) qualifies as a bad thing, especially for Arthur. The faster to promotion, the faster he gets a horse and Tiltyu gets that rocking B staves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverCrusader Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 The low MAG really blows though, thats the only drawback that really comes to mind Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mekkah Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 I remember writing an essay on this, yeah, haha. The main issue is that even with Lex's defense boost, both Arthur and Tinny die in one hit when they are at half HP or below (especially if you reduce them to 1HP with the arena). This turns the Wrath gimmick into a very dangerous one: anytime it does not get the job done, you have a high chance of dying. Examples of situations where Wrath/Ambush does not work: - Ballistae - Bolting/Meteor - Enemy survives a crit As a solution I've suggested using Prayer/Wrath instead by using Fin as a parent. It gets around the first two problems, and usually the third because Fin also gives both kids Pursuit and lets them crit the enemy twice. Of course, this comes at the cost of: - Having to do math to make sure the kids enter a strong enough Prayer to survive reliably on the enemy phase you want to use them - Having to do the above again and again - Requiring you to go fast in Ch3 in order to get Fin/Tiltyu done - No Elite for Arthur/Tinny, though I think the fact that Lex can now marry someone else and pass Elite there makes up for it Is any of this worth it? Probably not. Azel/Tiltyu and Levin/Tiltyu both give you overall better results, but if you like Wrath combos and like to do mental gymnastics, I'd give it a try. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cymbalina's Revenge Posted April 10, 2014 Share Posted April 10, 2014 As a solution I've suggested using Prayer/Wrath instead by using Fin as a parent. It gets around the first two problems, and usually the third because Fin also gives both kids Pursuit and lets them crit the enemy twice. Of course, this comes at the cost of: - Having to do math to make sure the kids enter a strong enough Prayer to survive reliably on the enemy phase you want to use them - Having to do the above again and again - Requiring you to go fast in Ch3 in order to get Fin/Tiltyu done - No Elite for Arthur/Tinny, though I think the fact that Lex can now marry someone else and pass Elite there makes up for it Is any of this worth it? Probably not. Azel/Tiltyu and Levin/Tiltyu both give you overall better results, but if you like Wrath combos and like to do mental gymnastics, I'd give it a try. I've not found the calculations to be a problem in using Prayer/Wrath, especially not with Arthur. I've had great luck in using Finn!Arthur for chokepoints and enemy-baiting even in Chapters 10 and Final (great fun vs Hel mages). Give him Thoron and the Hero Sword and he's a fine unit. As for blasting through Chapter 3, it's nice to use efficient and elegant gameplay to achieve a desired pairing instead of just plopping them together for a million turns. :) Though you do have to glue Finn and Tiltyu together for at least one turn so he doesn't run off with Briggid instead... Sure, the kids don't have Elite but they're arena stars so leveling them up isn't that big of an issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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