Is it wrong to over analyze Fire Emblem Awakening?

[IceBrand]

Here's what I think.

Story: The story takes itself seriously, at times. Its your average hero defeats villian tale with a few twists here and there. I would compare it to that of an average action movie. It knows what it is and doesn't try to become anything it isn't. Sure some plot holes appear, but when your watching a movie, you don't care about those things, only the action. And even then its for entertainment. It's not a test.

Characters: While the characters aren't the most depth, they are handled decently. They all have their tropes and the game plays around with them. They're not Shakespeare quality but they get the job done.

Villians: Validar and Grima are evil just because. But that doesn't mean that it's a bad thing. Not every vilian has to have a back story or a reason for their actions. Look at Fomortiis from Sacred Stones for example.

Conclusion: Should I say we should ignore the flaws? No. Everything has flaws and pointing them out helps us understand what works and what doesn't. What I am asking is should we get bent out of shape from every tiny detail? Should we take everything seriously or accept it at face value?

[shadowofchaos]

I accepted it at face value.

The more I replayed it (trust me, I replayed it a lot)... the more obvious the story flaws were.

Same with the characters.

But I still love the game for what it is.

[ClassyWolf]

Here's what I think.

Story: The story takes itself seriously, at times.

I would say it tries to take itself seriously... and often times fails due to things that have just happened, like when Lucina reveals who she really is... after a chapter where Validar has given you resources and ships to battle Valm, sent raisen to kill you, told that he is the avatars father and pretty much admits he is evil... and then our heros ignore all that... yes, really broke the immersion and the mood what the reveal with Lucina was supposed to be.

...Or the bishop guy we never saw before and never hear from again who is the cause of death of the pegasus knight unit Cordelia is a part of...

And the last thing I'm probably in a minority, but when Emmeryn died, I laughed, she is a character we barely knew, and the other characters moods swayed so quickly from sad to mad (or something like that), I found it hilarious, and I thought the moment when Greil, or heck, Leila, died was well done and made me sad, not because I felt for the character, but how the other characters reacted to the situation.

They're not Shakespeare quality

This is not an excuse or an argument for shallow characters, it's like saying "well what did you expect"... I'll leave it at that... for now at least.

Villians: Validar and Grima are evil just because. But that doesn't mean that it's a bad thing. Not every vilian has to have a back story or a reason for their actions. Look at Fomortiis from Sacred Stones for example.

Yes, and I have said this in other topics, the memorable villains are usualy the secondary ones, like Lyon, Nergal, Zhepiel, heck, in Mystery I would say both Gharnef and Medeus were decent (clihced yes, but they had backstories and motivations other than evil for evil), and also Black knight and Ashnard from the tellius series. Awakening really doesen't have that.

Conclusion: Should I say we should ignore the flaws? No. Everything has flaws and pointing them out helps us understand what works and what doesn't. What I am asking is should we get bent out of shape from every tiny detail? Should we take everything seriously or accept it at face value?

While I don't think everything needs to be taken seriously, Fire emblem as a series have had decent stories, not groundbreaking but still stories that keep you interested, and if you have to take everything the game tells you at face value, alltough none of it would make sense, then the writers have done a poor job.

I'm not saying everyone should hate awakeing, after all we all have different tastes and we weigh things differently when thinking about cons and pros...

And I just happen to analyze the game and see how true it is to the games it's supposed to be a sequel to, how things go togeather, if the actions of the characters make sense etc... it's just something I like to do...

Edited April 30, 2014 by that one person

[RJWalker]

Why is that people only bring up this whole 'overanalyzing' arguement when other are criticizing something?

You never see someone endlessly praise something and then get rebuked by someone else who says "You're overanalyzing it."

[Dandragon]

Why is that people only bring up this whole 'overanalyzing' arguement when other are criticizing something?

You never see someone endlessly praise something and then get rebuked by someone else who says "You're overanalyzing it."

Because people are weird.

[ClassyWolf]

Why is that people only bring up this whole 'overanalyzing' arguement when other are criticizing something?

You never see someone endlessly praise something and then get rebuked by someone else who says "You're overanalyzing it."

...holy crap your right... this is probably another one like "it's not shakespearian so what did you expect" kind of excuse so they can avoid having to expalin why you are wrong? I don't know but might be the case.

[IceBrand]

Why is that people only bring up this whole 'overanalyzing' arguement when other are criticizing something?

You never see someone endlessly praise something and then get rebuked by someone else who says "You're overanalyzing it."

They do, it's called overrated. It happens, just not that often. Sorry but I can't find a reference at the moment to back up my claim.

[XeKr]

The obvious example is overanalyzing literature/art/film, which you’ll see tons of middle/high schoolers and non-major students complain and joke about.

That said, there is nothing “wrong” (in whatever definition being used itt) about having a critical opinion and expressing it. Actually, it's quite healthy to have dissenting thought and discussion, compared to a hivemind. But it also universal some people will be irked if you criticize their preferences, particularly if they view it as nitpicky.

Anyways, I found FE13 quite heartwarming my first run (especially later the Scramble/Future packs), which is all I really ask for. I tend to think, to some extent, rational analyses will deconstruct the absurdities in many stories/plots (atm the most obvious/popular example I can think of is HPMOR), but that doesn’t necessarily lessen the original charm or enjoyment (imo).

I would bring up a certain infamous FE7 plot topic but…

Edited April 30, 2014 by XeKr

[ClassyWolf]

They do, it's called overrated. It happens, just not that often. Sorry but I can't find a reference at the moment to back up my claim.

Calling games "overrated" is far more common than you make it sound, look in these forums and you will see people calling different FE games overrated, heck even characters, it's become more of a "you like what I don't so it's overrated".

[RJWalker]

They do, it's called overrated. It happens, just not that often. Sorry but I can't find a reference at the moment to back up my claim.

That happens but it's different. People who use the overanalyzing arguement can fall on both sides of the like/dislike spectrum but people who call it overrated usually dislike it or don't care much for it the first place.

Usually anyway.

[ClassyWolf]

The obvious example is overanalyzing literature/art/film, which you’ll see tons of middle/high schoolers and non-major students complain and joke about.

That said, there is nothing “wrong” (in whatever definition being used itt) about having a critical opinion and expressing it. But it also universal some people will be irked if you criticize their preferences, particularly if they view it as nitpicky.

Anyways, I found FE13 quite heartwarming my first run (especially the Scramble/Future packs), which is all I really ask for. I tend to think, to some extent, rational analyses will deconstruct the absurdities in many stories/plots (atm the most obvious/popular example I can think of is HPMOR), but that doesn’t necessarily lessen the original charm or enjoyment (imo).

I would bring up a certain infamous FE7 plot topic but…

Honestly... my problem with the story was that the characters acted so abnormaly (and the lack of explanation and exposition), like ignoring an obvious villain who pretty much confesses he is evil and forgets about it.

I try to use common sense in everything (yes, even video games and how well they keep to their lore and world), and I would have to turn off my brain to enjoy it, which I'm really bad at (well, exept if it's a nes game, Maybe I have lower expectations for them?), oh well, it's only my own enjoyment I ruin... mostly...

[RJWalker]

Anyway, I felt no emotion during the moments when the game was trying to get an emotional reaction from you.

Emmeryn dying? Nope. Her entire role in the story was making one terrible decision after another. And then the game has the audacity to unlock a comedic paralogue right after that chapter. I mean really...

Lucina revealing the truth to Chrom? Nope. We're told about the hardships she faced in her timeline. We're not shown. Contrast to Seliph reuniting with the ghosts of his parents. It's much more successful in getting me emotional even though Seliph has the most nonchalant reaction.

None of the hardships of the children's hardships cause me to feel anything because the game uses cheap tactics. Oh, a different Chrom died. Not thing one. No, this one is still alive. Just so the game can get away with a FE4 style Kill 'em All situation without actually killing the characters you control. Grow a spine game.

[IceBrand]

Anyway, I felt no emotion during the moments when the game was trying to get an emotional reaction from you.

Emmeryn dying? Nope. Her entire role in the story was making one terrible decision after another. And then the game has the audacity to unlock a comedic paralogue right after that chapter. I mean really...

Lucina revealing the truth to Chrom? Nope. We're told about the hardships she faced in her timeline. We're not shown. Contrast to Seliph reuniting with the ghosts of his parents. It's much more successful in getting me emotional even though Seliph has the most nonchalant reaction.

None of the hardships of the children's hardships cause me to feel anything because the game uses cheap tactics. Oh, a different Chrom died. Not thing one. No, this one is still alive. Just so the game can get away with a FE4 style Kill 'em All situation without actually killing the characters you control. Grow a spine game.

I completely agree with this. The game was too safe with the characters. IS probably disn't want to upset some fans and kept some characters alive. Even weirder that they all look the same two years later compared to say Sothe who changed dramatically.

[PM ME MARIANNE ART]

So a little bit ago I would have disagreed, but I actually started the game over again, so now I have more recent thoughts.

I accepted it at face value.

The more I replayed it (trust me, I replayed it a lot)... the more obvious the story flaws were.
Same with the characters.

But I still love the game for what it is.

This is now pretty much how I feel.

The stroy: Well...I just ignore it

The characters: I actually do like most of them (Inigo, Say'ri, Brady are some of my personal favorites), and they aren't as bad as people say

The villains: Well...they aren't good. I agree that villains that are just evil to be evil can have potential. Manfroy is the best villain in the series in my opinion because he is a villain that really makes you hate him. The guys in this game are more cartoon villains.

So basically: Focusing more on the gameplay makes this game more enjoyable, at least to me. Over analyzing it doesn't really do too much for me.

[ClassyWolf]

Talking about characters, something that doesen't make sense to me in the context of the story:

And If I may rant, they made the character (especially the female characters) way too fanservicy, and one of my favourite characters in the fe series, Tiki, I wonder what she is doing in awakening because it's so poorly explained, her role just don't make sense, what is she doing in Valm? why is she serving Naga when Gotoh mentions that she probably hates them for the way they protected her & the world? why isn't whe with Bantu since we know from the other games she hates being alone? It's just so poorly explained that it seems like they only gave her the role over Gotoh (he is almost certainly still alive since he is a divine dragon and Bantu still lives) is for fanservince.

I don't have enything aginst said fanservice (belive if you will) if it makes sense, example? Aversa, her design makes sense because she is supposed to be a feme fatale.

[Loki Laufeyson]

This game handles fanservice really well in my opinion. Fanservice (especially of that sort) is often only aimed at one demographic. FE13 does not aim its fanservice solely at males but also throws a lot of bones to female players. While the male characters get Tiki's really large tracts of land or Olivia's dancer outfit and Cordelia's...whatever people see in her, and Tharja being obvious, the females get plenty too. We get Gaius' hilarious sweet tooth and nice butt. Our self-insert gets to marry the main hero. Virion is a dandy and very pleasing to the eye. We get Libra in his manly androgynousness. We get Henry cackling mad and being adorable. We get Frederick wearing a butler uniform under that armor. Etc and so forth. Its nice.

As for the more general sense of fanservice, the game has that in so many spades, its easier to list where it DOESNT happen.

I accepted it at face value.

The more I replayed it (trust me, I replayed it a lot)... the more obvious the story flaws were.
Same with the characters.

But I still love the game for what it is.

Pretty much. Second playthrough had me thinking Emmeryn was a complete idiot and deserved what came to her due to her crippling incompetence. (seriously, people like that should never rule a nation.)

The stroy: Well...I just ignore it

Also this.

[RJWalker]

Ignoring the story...

How can anyone just ignore one half of the game and then say it's good if you ignore that flawed half?

[ClassyWolf]

Ignoring the story...

How can anyone just ignore one half of the game and then say it's good if you ignore that flawed half?

To defend something they like without the need to explin why it's not as good as they think? I don't know, some weigh other things differently when thinking of pros and cons.

Your right that the story shouldn't be ignored, after all, it's been a fairly big part of fire emblem (yes even in shadow dragon and new mystery even if people don't want to admit that), and awakening is sorely lacking in story and lore, it just needs a lot more exposition, and explining how things that have changed from earlier games suddenly makes sense... and the characters are fairly shallow and fanservicy for really no other reason than fanservice, or really animu or whatever people call that.

If you happen to like that, go wild, just don't try to get the game to seem better than it acctually is when you make an analysys (god I hate most of the reviewers for this point, either really blowing the praise out of proportion or staight up lying about the game).

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

Ignoring the story...

How can anyone just ignore one half of the game and then say it's good if you ignore that flawed half?

to be fair, FE games never really focus on the story anyways.

hell i'm not gonna criticize a mario platformer for the story cause there's never any real focus on it.

but on the other hand, you can tell they put lot of work into awakening's story(cause they didn't recycle FE1's/3's plot like FE6 did, which is why i give 6's a story a break), and its kinda bad, i have a hard time ignoring that.

Why is that people only bring up this whole 'overanalyzing' arguement when other are criticizing something?

You never see someone endlessly praise something and then get rebuked by someone else who says "You're overanalyzing it."

also to this, you have a very good point, and your almost correct.

except your not, because i'm that guy who tells others "stop overanlyzing SAO, its an average anime with a gary stu protag and a idiot plot for the second half of it with a forced love triangle that undermines the romance in the first half" for example.

sure i'm just one guy, but there are a very few minority that do tell others that they are over analyzing stuff

(INSERT QUOTE FROM THAT ONE PERSON ABOVE ME ABOUT DEFENDING SOMETHING THAT THEY LIKE WITHOUT GOING INTO THE DETAILS)

I'm gonna hate myself for saying this, but its something i picked up on 4chan that others have pointed out while on there.

some people do exist that think that all they have to do is say 'its fun" or "i like it" without going into details as to why they like it, then turning around and giving a full page essay on any "FF7 sucks" or 'why Lucina is the worst waifu".

this is obviously hypocritical, if you truly love something, despite its flaws, you should be able to give a detailed explanation as to why you like it, that's how they detect trolls on 4chan.

saying that "hilter did nothing wrong" labels you as a troll ASAP and you get told to go back to /pol/, on the other hand, actually giving reasons why you liked Halo 4 or something, you might get called a retard, but its hard to argue that you actually do care about it.

whats going on in the OP's post is that he's dispite "being a fan of awakening' and having it listed as his favorite game, he can't seem to defend it by its own merits and keeps comparing it to other games in the series while implying that "the other games are just as bad as awakening with this"

if you actual do like something, then talk about its own merits, other then trying to compare it to others, likewise if you actually hate something, don't compare it to others, explain why by itself, its a bad game.

this guy can not be a true fan of fire emblem, he must either be a troll or a half hearted casual who doesn't care about the series other then waifu simulator: will you marry me sempai?~.

i hate this game so damn much, it brought in a flood of casuals who dare have the nerve to talk smack to the actual fans about their underaged pantsu rpg.

i don't care if it saved the series, i'd rather it be dead if this is what i'm gonna have to deal with.

Edited May 1, 2014 by HF Makalov Fanboy Kai

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

DOUBLE POST, SON OF A BITCH EDITING.

plz delete I fucked up when trying to edit my post above

Edited May 1, 2014 by HF Makalov Fanboy Kai

[RJWalker]

No, no, no. FE does focus quite a bit on story. Comparing it to a Mario platformer in terms of story is unthinkable. Outside the fanbase, FE is known for two things (well, 3 after Awakening but that doesn't matter right now): Perma Death and engaging story and characters, especially for Nintendo.

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

its save to say then on casual mode then its not a fire emblem according to your standards?

i can agree with that, as 10 year fan, i'm alienated from what claims to be of the same kin, only thing that lets me admit that it is so is classic mode.

[RJWalker]

its save to say then on casual mode then its not a fire emblem according to your standards?

i can agree with that, as 10 year fan, i'm alienated from what claims to be of the same kin, only thing that lets me admit that it is so is classic mode.

It has nothing to do with my standards. Outside the fanbase, permadeath is one of Fire Emblem's most well know features.

[TheWill]

Personally, I hate Awakening's characters for on reason. All of them basically boil down to:

If you like the archetype, you'll like the character.

Other than that one archetype, they offer very little as a character, if anything at all. Honestly, I'd say it's impossible to classify any of the characters more than being that particular archetype. All of which I've seen before, with the exception of Owain, who is basically a reference machine anyway. People say to just sit back and enjoy the archetypes interact, but honestly, this is unacceptable.

Very few have remarkable motivations or deep stories, and whenever they do try, it's poorly contrived. One example being Lon'qu, a silent, cool character who developed a fear towards women as he was unable to protect Ke'ri. None of the supports are mentionable at dealing with this issue and in fact, the issue is pretty ridiculous. Gaining a phobia to all women for being unable to protect one honestly doesn't sound logical at all and actually makes Ke'ri seem like a poor plot device to give Lon'qu depth. Similarly, they could've done good things with Anna's unhealthy addiction to money, Kellam's issues with being ignored, Tharja being self-conscious of her terrible personality and Nowi's fear for outliving everyone around her. You can't say that there just isn't the material to go in depth and have good writing, because that's completely false. They chose not to, rather that they couldn't.

In my opinion, the second generation characters are the worst offenders of bad writing and poor development. They've actually got a good, apocalyptic world to help shape who they are, with their parents dying and help shape them all out to be good characters. In actuality however, this is not the case. None of their personalities seem to revolve around the events of which happened in the future and rather, the events in the future with Grima's rule seem like an add-on to the gags they provide.

People often argue for a character they like, but please understand that liking something and admitting its flaws are completely different things. Owain for example, is one of the poorest characters in the series, but is well-liked for his Fire Emblem references, gags and 'being hot'. Even if you like his character for all three of those reasons, which is completely fine, that would make his character enjoyable, not well-written.

except your not, because i'm that guy who tells others "stop overanlyzing SAO, its an average anime with a gary stu protag and a idiot plot for the second half of it with a forced love triangle that undermines the romance in the first half" for example.

I honestly disagree. The most interesting thing about Sword Art Online is the over analysing reviews it got. Seeing all the flaws listed one after the other, plot holes, bad characterization, poorly written romance, all of it helps you appreciate good writing.

Edited May 1, 2014 by SlipperySlippy

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

wait slippery, aren't you agreeing with me then?

the overanlyzing i was talking about was about the people who think its deeper then it actually is and enjoy it far beyond whats a healthy level of enjoyment.

yes i am aware of the hypocritical statement in my own post.

overall i do agree with your post, i was just confused by that last part, sorry if i didn't make it more obvious what type of overanlyizing i was talking about.