whats with the Emmeryn hate i keep hearing about?

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

don't get me wrong, i don't give a shit about any of the characters in awakening enough to hate any of them, but i felt like it was more on topic to make a topic about it then trying to discuss it in the "is it wrong" thread that has several different topics going on it in already.

what i want to know is, why do those that do dislike her, dislike her? if you like her that's fine but i didn't make this topic to listen to how much you like her, i made this to educate myself in understanding why this character is disliked by more then a few members of this forum that i respect.

[Sunwoo]

For me personally, I dislike Emmeryn because I feel that her story and character are weak, especially compared to previous FE rulers. I don't mind her being pacifistic and wanting to avoid war. The problem is that she constantly makes poor decision after poor decision in the name of "peace", things that could've been avoided (such as getting captured by Plegia in the first place and chapter 9).

Emmeryn is a weak ruler. A good person, but a weak ruler. She's so intent on atoning for the previous exalt's war that she basically leaves Ylisse without a military to protect its people. She keeps on going back to Ylisstol because "the people would panic" if they found out she left. Never mind that FE has a precedent of royals fleeing their country or palace, not because they are selfish but because the country would be in worse shit if they died.

The biggest problem with this is that the game never acknowledges that Emmeryn is a poor ruler. Look at previous games like FE8 and FE9, even FE7. Rulers who were pacifistic and too idealistic (Eliwood, Eirika, Elincia) would often have to suck up their ideals and realize that in WAR you can't hold back. Elincia had an entire character arc where she goes from an idealistic naive ruler to one who gets shit done, and she didn't even have to give up her pacifistic ideals while being a good leader. When you compare them to Emmeryn, you see just how much potential Emmeryn had to either grow, or for Chrom to learn from her mistakes while believing in her ideals. Neither happens. She's just praised mindlessly like a paragon of good when she … wasn't fit for a ruler and didn't do anything for her country.

[RJWalker]

She makes one bad decision after another and then dies.

Absolute pacifism is stupid. Ordinary bandits ravaging the country side aren't going to care that the ruler is so noble. The Shepards (which only seem to consist of half a dozen members before the war) can't be everywhere to save every village.

[IceBrand]

Emmeryn has good intentions but doesn't realize that love and peace can't solve anything. If she had some character development then people's view would probably change.

[NobodiePichu]

she's just a poorly written character, and the very obvious "sacrificial lamb that all should strive to be" and said sacrifice doesn't even really mean anything except one war coming to a spontaneous close and having chrom on the stage so he can be a war monger. and even then she doesn't even die and instead somehow survives a long fall on to solid stone face first to come back with "that oooh so clever staple of amnesia" just so that they can have her there as a playable character [cause making another character is for chumps.] and yet still pretend that "she died for our sins" so that her supposed "sacrifice" can still be held on a pedestal. then theirs the whole problem of her amnesia even being accurate, and the fact of her getting her memories back if when she dies in game.

so in short i hate her cause shes a useless failed writing tool. and a tool in general.

[IceBrand]

If the game at least called out on Emneryn's choices then we could have seen her as a tragic, flawed character. But sadly, everyone seems to praise most of her decisions.

[Loki Laufeyson]

For me personally, I dislike Emmeryn because I feel that her story and character are weak, especially compared to previous FE rulers. I don't mind her being pacifistic and wanting to avoid war. The problem is that she constantly makes poor decision after poor decision in the name of "peace", things that could've been avoided (such as getting captured by Plegia in the first place and chapter 9).

Emmeryn is a weak ruler. A good person, but a weak ruler. She's so intent on atoning for the previous exalt's war that she basically leaves Ylisse without a military to protect its people. She keeps on going back to Ylisstol because "the people would panic" if they found out she left. Never mind that FE has a precedent of royals fleeing their country or palace, not because they are selfish but because the country would be in worse shit if they died.

The biggest problem with this is that the game never acknowledges that Emmeryn is a poor ruler. Look at previous games like FE8 and FE9, even FE7. Rulers who were pacifistic and too idealistic (Eliwood, Eirika, Elincia) would often have to suck up their ideals and realize that in WAR you can't hold back. Elincia had an entire character arc where she goes from an idealistic naive ruler to one who gets shit done, and she didn't even have to give up her pacifistic ideals while being a good leader. When you compare them to Emmeryn, you see just how much potential Emmeryn had to either grow, or for Chrom to learn from her mistakes while believing in her ideals. Neither happens. She's just praised mindlessly like a paragon of good when she … wasn't fit for a ruler and didn't do anything for her country.

This. This so much. Why would anyone be upset about her death when it actually benefited Ylisse in the long run. She was driving the country to the fucking ground. If anything, Chrom should not have been "i should be like Emm" but "I should not repeat the same mistakes she did. I will right the wrongs." Its so annoying that the game and its characters dont realize just how damaging she was for their nation. Virion is called a coward for running from his lands in order to save them. He, being in an FE game, does what people in FE games do in that situation. Try to get in good cahoots with the main character and use that as an advantage in the long run. But hes still called a craven. Emmeryn leaps off a cliff and gets declared a saint. Her sacrifice meant fuck all and it was even more cowardly than running and hiding.

[IceBrand]

This. This so much. Why would anyone be upset about her death when it actually benefited Ylisse in the long run. She was driving the country to the fucking ground. If anything, Chrom should not have been "i should be like Emm" but "I should not repeat the same mistakes she did. I will right the wrongs." Its so annoying that the game and its characters dont realize just how damaging she was for their nation. Virion is called a coward for running from his lands in order to save them. He, being in an FE game, does what people in FE games do in that situation. Try to get in good cahoots with the main character and use that as an advantage in the long run. But hes still called a craven. Emmeryn leaps off a cliff and gets declared a saint. Her sacrifice meant fuck all and it was even more cowardly than running and hiding.

There's also that fact that no one was ruling Ylisse during all this. Who knows how many villages were pilfered and burned.

[TheWill]

There are a lot of things that you'd be upset about that could benefit you in the long run. There was nothing wrong with people being sad over Emmeryn's death, regardless of how much it benefited Ylisse. It's actually a pretty ridiculous statement to make.

[Anacybele]

Everyone else pretty much summed it up, but I do like how Emmeryn is just so dang kind. And she did do ONE thing right. She shortened the Plegia war by causing the Plegians to support her idea and honor her sacrifice.

[NobodiePichu]

Everyone else pretty much summed it up, but I do like how Emmeryn is just so dang kind. And she did do ONE thing right. She shortened the Plegia war by causing the Plegians to support her idea and honor her sacrifice.

yeah she's nice and all but it's her sacrifice that makes me upset cause it just doesn't feel like a sacrifice. it's like shes mocking people from the sidelines, and the sad thing is that a much better arc for her could have been made but they took the laziest solution possible when making the story.

though emm would bake great cookies as a nice old lady down the street im sure.

[FrostyFireMage]

She's a testament to how terrible the story of Awakening is. It's one thing to be idealistic and pacifistic and another to be completely fucking unrealistic and stupid.

[Knight]

For me personally, I dislike Emmeryn because I feel that her story and character are weak, especially compared to previous FE rulers. I don't mind her being pacifistic and wanting to avoid war. The problem is that she constantly makes poor decision after poor decision in the name of "peace", things that could've been avoided (such as getting captured by Plegia in the first place and chapter 9).

Emmeryn is a weak ruler. A good person, but a weak ruler. She's so intent on atoning for the previous exalt's war that she basically leaves Ylisse without a military to protect its people. She keeps on going back to Ylisstol because "the people would panic" if they found out she left. Never mind that FE has a precedent of royals fleeing their country or palace, not because they are selfish but because the country would be in worse shit if they died.

The biggest problem with this is that the game never acknowledges that Emmeryn is a poor ruler. Look at previous games like FE8 and FE9, even FE7. Rulers who were pacifistic and too idealistic (Eliwood, Eirika, Elincia) would often have to suck up their ideals and realize that in WAR you can't hold back. Elincia had an entire character arc where she goes from an idealistic naive ruler to one who gets shit done, and she didn't even have to give up her pacifistic ideals while being a good leader. When you compare them to Emmeryn, you see just how much potential Emmeryn had to either grow, or for Chrom to learn from her mistakes while believing in her ideals. Neither happens. She's just praised mindlessly like a paragon of good when she … wasn't fit for a ruler and didn't do anything for her country.

I'm going to say that this sums up almost everything wrong about her character. But to add insult to injury, the devs had the nerve to bring her back to life.

[BrightBow]

For one thing, Emmeryn did not perform a sacrifice.The word "sacrifice" implies that she gave something up that she didn't have to. And she was a dead woman who just hadn't stop breathing yet. Obviously overcoming your self-preservation instinct for the greater good is still pretty impressive. So it would still have been somewhat noble if killed herself to prevent Chrom from handing over the Fire Emblem but... man, she was way to arrogant for that:

Emmeryn: See now that one selfless act has the power to change the world!

Also, wasn't her speech before that amazing?

Emmeryn: Plegians! I ask that you hear the truth of my words! War will win you nothing but sadness and pain, both inside your borders and out. Free yourselves from this hatred! From this cycle of pain and vengeance. Do what you must... As I will do

That's Emmeryn's big lesson for the world that changed the hearts of all Plegians and made them turn on Gangrel. Hey, you think one could stop all the fighting in the middle east by shouting "War is bad" and then killing yourself? I bet Mustafa was busy kicking puppies before Emmeryn's speech opened him up to an entirely new way of thinking.

Sarcasm out, this is way to simplistic for cheesy 90s cartoons. But Awakening is a game where you at one point burn hundreds of thousands soldiers to death. With these stakes, it has a fucking responsibility to treat war from beyond a kindergarten level.

And there is no reason to feel emotionally affected by her death. The game doesn't focus on the feelings of Emmeryn, Chrom or Lissa and it doesn't bother to develop their relationship.

Emmeryn herself isn't human enough to work as the protagonist of a tragedy. And even after she dies, the game neglects to focus on the pain and the loss of those she left behind in exchange for glorifying her suicide. All the game does is to put her on a pedestal, pushing her from it and then going "isn't it sad?". Effectively it tells players to cry in the same way that bad comedies tell viewers to be amused with a prerecorded laugh track.

And does Chrom learn anything from her sacrifice? Well, he claims to have been blind before the final battle with Gangrel. But he himself said previously that the Plegian's "rightfully remember their suffering" and sounded like he blamed no one but Gangrel for this mess. So in truth he hasn't changed at all. And Lissa got two lines (and the word "line" is pushing it) before declaring that she will completely ignore her sister's death from now on. Technically she said "You can count me in! I'm tired of crying all the time. It's time to start punchin' stuff!" But it really means the same thing.

And then they bring her back in a Spotpass map. ....except with an entirely different set of memories and a different personality, resulting in IS gloriously wasting the opportunity for some good character moments between Emmeryn and her family since she is now an entirely different person. But hey, her body is still intact, so she is still good enough as marriage bait for the Avatar. And that's all that matters to IS these days.

Edited May 11, 2014 by BrightBow

[Jari]

So... It would've been better if Lissa and Emmeryn switched roles?

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

well it seems everyone is providing very logical reasons, props to brightbow and sangyul.

So... It would've been better if Lissa and Emmeryn switched roles?

it might've been better if awakening had a decent script in the first place.

also the absolute pasfistism line reminded me of Relena from gundam wing, so emm's Relena with less character development, welp.

[Czar_Yoshi]

Hey, you think one could stop all the fighting in the middle east by shouting "War is bad" and then killing yourself?

Didn't something similar involving a fruit vendor in Tunesia actually set off a bunch of fighting there a few years back? If real world examples are anything to go by, her doing that should have actually made things worse.

[Hidden Wall]

My problem with Emm is that she was made to die. Her death is the only thing memorable about her. She was just too perfect to stay alive.

[Damosel]

A big problem with Emmeryn is we're TOLD all about her and how she's the greatest thing since the Aum Staff, but aren't really shown it on screen. Of her peaceful-but-prosperous rule or even "loving" interactions with her brother and sister, there's one maybe two short scenes for each. More than either of those the player sees her making unintelligent moves and putting not only herself but her entire country in danger for some looks-good-on-paper ideals. (not to mention her personal guard being completely useless)

As it's been said above, while Emm is nice she's a liability as a ruler with Ylisse having a super-hostile neighbor. And any impact her "sacrafice" had was ruined when she turns up alive- and with BRAIN DAMAGE. Really, couldn't just say she's a Morph or use a mystical staff on her or have her possessed by a dragon-god, had to go the unreasonable survival route? (all for the sake of Avatar's harem)

Now, her being a staunch pacifism in context of how her father was a genocidal warmonger could be an interesting contrast. But again, the player never sees any on-screen evidence that anything sucked prior to the ongoing story and the only character who reliably references Ylisse's bloody past is Gangrel- who's behavior is firmly in the mustache-twirling villian category so no one will take his complaints seriously. (the details of the previous Exalt were so wasted, might've even given Plegia motivations beyond mustache twirling)

Personally, I don't hate Emmeryn, but I absolutely hate how Awakening tries to sell her as a great ruler when by FE standards it was only a matter of time before she got shanked.

There's also that fact that no one was ruling Ylisse during all this. Who knows how many villages were pilfered and burned.

This bothers me so much. In all three Arcs the lords are leaving their countries without any seen support system of rulership to galavant across the map. (and they're never being forced to abdanon, like in past FEs) Both Khans leave for Valm, when it makes way more sense for one to stay while the other goes. And Chrom's terribly guilty of dropping the rulership ball, since he drags his wife, the queen, and his sister away for AVENTURE- a council is mentioned once and there's that Heirarch that gets axed, but who knows how much authority they have. Devs certainly didn't care to elaborate!

On the bandit point, the Risen also show up to terrorize the countryside...and beyond naming the things, nothing is down about them in the main plot. So if you don't do anything about random encounters that appear, does that mean the villagers are just screwed cause Chrom & CO don't care?

[4Dam PKMN Master Nappa]

I was always under the impression that a majority of Emm's actions were done as a way to reconcile for the horrors that her Father committed to Plegia: including the original size of the Shepards. They were intended to be just large enough to capable of maintaining peace but not large enough to represent a hostile force capable of fighting a war. I personally believe many rulers would have difficulty functioning in the events leading up to an Apocalpyse but I will agree that how she was handled in the SpotPass chapter in particular is...problematic.

[RJWalker]

The original size of the Shepards was... 8 people. I don't see how they could have possibly managed to keep the peace.

[Moira]

There's just so much bad writing and everything that was written poorly about the country is also reflected onto Emmeryn. There is absolutely no way she could possibly maintain peace in her country with 8 soldiers, so obviously we're missing some very vital information or the writing neglected to put anything in. And where are her advisors? She was 10 (I think) when she came into power, surely he should've been given extensive training on how to lead.

[Gazdakka]

There's just so much bad writing and everything that was written poorly about the country is also reflected onto Emmeryn. There is absolutely no way she could possibly maintain peace in her country with 8 soldiers, so obviously we're missing some very vital information or the writing neglected to put anything in. And where are her advisors? She was 10 (I think) when she came into power, surely he should've been given extensive training on how to lead.

Sorry, but I figured that playing a game where magic is abound and dragons and bunny-changing people exist could merit some suspension of disbelief. But I digress, I haven't really followed the Fire Emblem series, so I assume there's a precedent theme that I've missed.

As for Emmeryn, I didn't like her pacifist traits or her premature death, but meh; her personality was fine otherwise, and it sounds like her approach to this was pretty unique on the face of things. If anything, she's better than Sumia, who is a total weakling that puts all her eggs into the superstitious flower crapbasket.

I also don't consider the SpotPass characters to be totally legit either. Only being able to talk to you and not Chrom or Lissa is evidence enough of that. Heck, the lack of Flavia/Basilio and Gangrel/Aversa or Yen'fay/Walhart/Aversa/Say'ri supports tells me they were just extra additions for the sake of adding.

[RightfulGod]

I think what caused me to dislike her the most was when she was "brought back" with no memory. I felt like it really softened the impact of her death (no pun intended), and it just gave me this really bitter aftertaste for feeling sad about her cutscene. It was bad and most likely a poor attempt at a "happy ending" for the protagonist, and man, I just hate it. She was just... better off dead. She was a nice lady, but not a good character.

If anything, she's better than Sumia, who is a total weakling that puts all her eggs into the superstitious flower crapbasket.

She has bad self-esteem issues, but at the very least, carries herself out to war on a flying horse and punches the prince in the face with her armored hand of doom. Feel what you want about Sumia, but I don't think she's that weak. Tbh only around Chrom...

[Czar_Yoshi]

Sorry, but I figured that playing a game where magic is abound and dragons and bunny-changing people exist could merit some suspension of disbelief. But I digress, I haven't really followed the Fire Emblem series, so I assume there's a precedent theme that I've missed.

In fantasy stories/games in general, bending of the laws of physics are allowed as long as the changes make sense within the game's world. However, Awakening's world is one where two countries have very poor relations and one is terrorizing the other with Bandits, and it's simply not possible in that context for a sensible ruler to think they can get away with an army of 8.

Edited May 19, 2014 by Czar_Yoshi