Doomsday Clock Mafia - Town/ITP Win

[Bluedoom]

k I'm gonna bite and defend against your case on me mistuki(mainly the spoilers and the double standard point)

SPOILER:

1. I already explained why, I think the basis for townreads from BBM was weak and based off of D1 content Idek why you're trying to push this point. Others also threw off townreads off of D1 content but w/e.

2.The same can be said for the way you're scumreading me btw. Btw BBM dropped to the bottom of my lynch priority by the end of D2, what are you trying to push here?

3. If you choose to interpret it that way go ahead but that's grasping and you know it. I mean my behaviour can be 'town behaviour' too but you choose to push it as scum. See why you're invalidating you're own case?

4. No I didn't say my reads are weak, I said I was sure scorri was my strongest read but now I had to re evaluate my lynch priority. No contradiction whatsoever. Missed the word 'strongest' but the intent was clear, imo.

5. Yeah I'll consider the kirsche point after one of you flip, mmkay?

DOUBLE STANDARD POINT:

Shinori was higher than BBM on my lynch priority towards the end of D2 and we needed a lynch to consolidate on. You had a GOOD POINT on kirsche but it didn't mean I found him to be a good lynch candidate. No one was willing to lynch Scorri and the only support to get a lynch on you was from Elieson.

SEMANTICS POINT:

You keep saying I push certain behaviours as scumtells even though they can be towntells when really major part of your scumread on me uses the same logic, if not the whole scumread.

[Bluedoom]

Now as far as reads go:

Darros pushing kirsche towards the end of D1 seems more towny actually. Mitsuki says Darros bussed her hard in EM when they were buddies but, what she forgets is that was EM and Darros wasn't really bussing kirsche hard this game.

I mean if he wanted to buss kirsche he would've done it ED1 instead of LD1 because he voted kirsche for reasons that existed ED1 but instead he coasted off of the excuse of not getting anything off of the ED1 interactions of BBM/kirsche. So the kirsche vote at the end of D1 seemed opportunistic.(Dunno about the D2 kirsche vote honestly) I haven't read kirsche's side of his interaction with Darros yet so I probably should.

Mitsuki: I'm going to ignore the part where I think her case on me sucks and state other reasons for thinking that she's scum.

- On top of her hard defence of Darros when the vig shot is announced, her case on me consisting of "pushing behaviour which can be town as scum" is related to me suspecting people for having many townreads and finding Darros/Scorri picking sides as scum. CONSIDERING I WAS RIGHT about Darros, I feel like this is an indirect defence of Darros too. And btw this was done before Manix said he'd vig Darros.

- I feel like she could've pushed this same case on me last phase, so I don't know why she's flip-flopping between her cases on kirsche and me. I mean the only new thing about her case this phase is the part where she says I'm using double standards- except she missed the context in which I voted Shinori.

My problem here though is that it looked like she was making quite the decent case on Darros D1 and dropped it to reconsider, and she did the same with me on D2, so I'm not so sure scum would fake dropping cases to reconsider like how she did it. This isn't as big of a lynch candidate as :

##Vote: Scorri

I'm confident that this slot is lurkscum. 90% of her content isn't even good scumhunting, it doesn't get us anywhere. I mean the main points of her content are tunneling on kirsche almost throughout the game, harping on Manix over reacting to BBM's reaction test because ???, and making an empty poly vote towards the end of D2. Not to mention her play has been similar to Darros' .

[Bluedoom]

I know it wasn't clear but I mean kirsche looks towny from Darros interactions so far

[Bluedoom]

Honestly I haven't got a read on prims so null I guess.

I'm still townreading Elieson because I don't think he's the type to pull out the cereal box analogy or trying being the advising type as scum. I'll probs read his ICBINSFMM4 ISO sometime but AFAIR he isn't playing like his scum self in that game.

[Refa]

You know what cereal is? Breakfast.

You know what else is breakfast? Waffles.

You know who else likes waffles? Scum.

Q.E.D.

[Bluedoom]

Oh yeah I didn't cover the whole player list uhhhhhhhhh

Manix is obv!town dayvig who vigged scum. Dunno why he's tunneling on BBM but Idc.

BBM is a null now because I don't think he'd tie himself to the Shinori lynch like he did and he was wrong about his Darros read. The reason why I'm null reading him instead of townreading him is because he can replicate this same play as scum so >_>. (and because its still annoying how he has like, a REALLY HARD TIME getting a scumread)

Refa is probably town who's just paranoid that I might be scum playing a good townie game.

Who is Poly? Never heard of him.

[charlie_]

Need a sub for scorri. Drop me a pm if you're interested.

[Refa]

##Unvote

##Vote: scorri

Quick, let's turbolynch scorri before she can get a sub. That'll teach her, uh, something all right. Fuck if I know what.

[Grace]

okay. actually doing reread now

prims:

I skimmed some of your town cases in your ISO and they are like... really bad. a lot of your points involve how a guy could've done something scummy but didn't, which is bullshit for reasons I shouldn't need to explain. Others just can easily be faked like everything you've said about kirsche (also comparing his scumplay to mine when we're different people wtf?). Given that we have 0 scum flips this is just ridiculous. Also do not think scorri has done anything townie.

you mentioned this LD2 in regards to bbm. this seems like a fairly decent reason to push bbm as a scumlord, but yet you seem to be pushing him as town/null instead. why is this?

and having mentioned that, i agree completely with this point. and the fact that bbm is continuing to keep pushing PoE and avoiding content still feels completely off. let's also delve into a few other things:

[spoiler=bbm stuff]source

-He was being kind of an ass ED1 but he was still the first one to try and take us out RVS, which is something

i don't have a problem with this but i went to reread to confirm some things. remember how i said in my first post that #28 read weird? i figured out why, thanks to a scum flip.

I don't think scum Darros would intentionally lie over something so insignificant. He probably just forgot the first voteswitch.

this feels like a subtle ED1 buddying. he proceeds to change it to null and then to second on lynch priority over D1, then back to more buddying d2.

-Whatever Manix says I think that asking people to comment on what you're doing is townie. Being town mcobvtown isn't always a good strategy as scum because people start wondering why you aren't dead.

for one, that issue was more directed at you than kirsche. but the thing is, is that looking townie off an ED1 interaction may delay people from reading you in depth. which means you don't have to push out great quality content and coast a little. and bbm follows this to the letter, kirsche less so.

-despite being a wagon most of D1/D2 he's still put forward content instead of just going into defensive mode

i skimmed his iso. i didn't actually see a whole lot, with darros being his only real read until he went onto elie, for D2. and that wasn't even a whole lot either.

his d1 was the incredibly easy FFM wagon and darros as well.

-I reread Draft recently and Prims was saying that he was obvtown all the time but he was just using that as his defence and not actually offering anything else. He also did that kind of in Manix's Unnamed game. Compare to kirsche still responding to points against him makes me feel he's not just saying he's obvtown to WIFOM or something.

like prims said, it shouldn't need explaining why comparing one player who's playerstyle is completely different to the other is flawed logic.

-I feel like he wouldn't sheep me so blatantly as scum

do you know what scum do? sheep

-I feel like he dropped his vote against me in a townie way; there was no real reason to stop pushing me considering how small an addition I made. Plus I stopped voting him so it's not like at the time anyways he was getting suspicion for it.

I don't really like kirsche's reasons for unvoting me; literally the only new thing I said was "no I don't consider it scummy to votehop".

i don't think i have to explain this, do i?

I'm willing to lynch Elieson if it comes to that but I feel like if he was going to misrep me and whatnot intentionally he would actually vote me or at least put me in a priority list rather than just say that he's not even scumreading me.

this is contrived as fuck. pretty sure exactly what you mentioned would be A Scum Tactic? why would you see elie as not an okay lynch (as evidenced by context) but just a "eh, i'll roll with it" lynch?

tl;dr bbm is a scumlord, with sourced points

[Grace]

mitsuki could be scum from darros interactions, namely the hard defense and #274

i'm kinda eh on kirsche. i'd need to delve a bit more to confirm things but the cursory iso skim (as was required for a point in my lst post) didn't make me feel terribly great about him. don't think i will be pushing this for a little, in any case

elie's iso is hard2read. that might be due to the words not actually achieving anything. it does feel like a case of "too many words, not enough actual content"

[Zkirsche]

This is badlogic, scum doesn't want to mislynch their "scumreads", they want town to mislynch town.

I don't really get what you mean by this? Unless they've put another scum member as a scumread, surely the whole point of scumreading people as scum is to push their lynch? In terms of what will go under the radar as reasonable, voting me would be less controversial than voting Marth.

I don't really mind lynching Scorri but I'd rather lynch Elie.

My read on BBM is weakening thanks to Manix's case (lynch Manix for making me doubt townreads), I didn't realise his Darros interactions were so unfavourable for him.

[Refa]

Manix, you should have dayvigged BBM lol. It'd save you a lot of effort!

[Refa]

OK, but seriously...

As far as Darros associative reads go, kirsche is looking the best from them. Yeah, Darros' scumread on him definitely seemed like a bus, but I don't see why he'd wagon kirsche over FFM LD1 (did someone else say this, probably but fuck you I thought this on my own). Wouldn't lynch him based on those premises.

That being said, kirsche what is your read on Prims?

I liked Marth's defense to Mitsuki's case; his responses made sense and perhaps more importantly, there wasn't really anything that bothered me. Also his reads are legit and he definitely would not be casing Mitsuki if he were scum (because OMGUS, obviously bad, look it's basically the same thing I said about SB not conforming to "obvious scum tells" as scum).

Also yeah, Mitsuki isn't looking too good WRT her reactions via Darros. More importantly though, is the fact that she was hard casing him and he didn't even mention it (as scum, I'd think that would bother him).

Oh right, totally missed Manix's BBM case. Should probably read that.

[Refa]

OK, reevaluating my lynch priority (yeah, Manix's BBM case seemed good on a cursory glace, but honestly my attention span is fading fast) accordingly:

scorri > Elieson > Mitsuki > BBM > Prims > kirsche > Polydeuces > bluedoom > Curly Brace > Refa

Not lynching anyone below kirsche, and most likely not lynching Prims/kirsche unless someone comes up with a genius case today. I feel good as far as those reads are concerned, but I'll probably need to rethink my top four scumreads (WRT order and possible scum teams) sometime in the future...just not right now.

[Refa]

Also Manix, who do you think is BBM's scumbuddy?

[Grace]

refa: if i had to use ~associative reads without flips~, and under the full assumption that bbm is a scumlord (which he is), i'd almost say that kirsche is a good one, just due to the ED1 interaction which makes sense as a scum slapfight

saying that, mitsuki's darros interactions are pretty bad, and bbm's listed townread on mitsuki feels contrived.

I especially think that the part where she talked about her RVS gut townread on Refa is town because it feels like genuine town pride upon correctly guessing someone's alignment right away,

this completely ignores the fact that scum can easily make up townreads on people they know are town. also trying to compare EM meta to forum meta is flawed because in the forum setting people can deliberate on their posts, with EM you really can't, and as such is a completely different dynamic.

[NekoRex]

Votecount 3.2

BBM (1): Curly

Bluedoom (1): Mitsuki

Elieson (2): kirsche, Prims

scorri (2): Bluedoom, Refa

Not voting: Elieson, BBM, Polydeuces, scorri

There are ~44 hours remaining

6 votes to hammer

subs needed for: scorri

My lack of internet has been quantified to at least three more days. It's really lame, but I should still be able to keep up brief appearances. I'm probably going to have to leave SB to endofday/daystart stuff for the time being.

Edited June 29, 2014 by NekoRex

[BBM]

firstly sorry guys; I haven't had time to reread because I've been conscripted the entire weekend for HARD LABOUR. Hopefully I'll have actual content tomorrow, but for now, reasons why Manix's case is not actually good will have to suffice.

First section is about Darros- I always said that Darros was a nullread on D1 (the RVS defence was "why this is not scummy", not "why this is town"); the only reason he was second on my lynch priority was because I only had the one scumread, which matches up pretty well with my D2. I changed him to leaning town on D2. I was wrong obviously; doesn't mean I'm scum.

Second section is about kirsche- most of it is just pointing out why my kirsche read is wrong. Don't have time to respond to that but in any case what is the scum intent in my actions here? They only exist if kirsche is my buddy, in case Manix is using associative reads, which he's using to say why kirsche is scum. He can't go "kirsche is scum because BBM is scum and BBM is scum because kirsche is scum"; it doesn't work that way. No, Manix just thinks I'm scum like always, and is digging up whatever is bad or illogical in my ISO rather than what is scummy.

Last part about Elie; no, that's not a scum tactic for exactly the reasons I explain in that quote. Scum want to push mislynches or get others to mislynch people; pointing out some bad stuff but then refusing to push it hard doesn't convince people to change a townread to a scumread. Like right now, Manix convinced kirsche to lessen his townread because he went after it hard. Did Elie do that? No.

[Prims]

Second section is about kirsche- most of it is just pointing out why my kirsche read is wrong. Don't have time to respond to that but in any case what is the scum intent in my actions here? They only exist if kirsche is my buddy, in case Manix is using associative reads, which he's using to say why kirsche is scum. He can't go "kirsche is scum because BBM is scum and BBM is scum because kirsche is scum"; it doesn't work that way. No, Manix just thinks I'm scum like always, and is digging up whatever is bad or illogical in my ISO rather than what is scummy.

yea this is what I got out of the case basically

can Elie die yet? scorri needing a sub is whatever, I still think Elie is blatantly actual scum and would prefer to off him first.

[Mitsuki]

I'm probably not going to be busy anymore for a while.

Link to what SB posted for me, in case someone wants to ISO me.

I don't see why Marth's vote on Darros is a town vote, seriously. Darros was the main D2 lynch candidate at the point and he wasn't doing anything, so I think the obvious thing to do for scum would be bussing their buddy to look townier afterwards.

I'm not saying this is proof that Marth was bussing but it doesn't make him townie.

People casing Elieson because of his suspicion on me should reconsider. Elie always suspects me on EM based on points that I consider bad, so I don't think it's alignment indicative. You can go and read some of those games if you want to check.

Prims is definitely town, it's mostly a gutread but based on that he seems interested in the game and finding scum.

The weirdest thing about it is that she scumread Darros day 1. Would like her to explain the turnaround.

As I already explained, Darros' answer to me made me doubt my read, then I reconsidered over N1 and I thought my read was shit so D2 I said I was null on him and wanted him to post more to decide. Then I townread him.

I probably didn't even have a logical reason to think my read was bad but this kind of thing tends to happen to me.

@Mitsuki (regarding her Darros and kirsche cases):

-You did the not commenting thing too, so I don't get how that particularly implicates kirsche. Like if you think he's scummy for lack of content it's fine but I don't buy him being scum on implying he's holding back content.

I ended up commenting on what I wasn't saying before though. Anyways, the main point is that I think Kirsche implied he was holding back on commenting stuff to look more active than he actually was.

-Didn't Bluedoom explain his issues with the townreads? I thought he did, maybe I'm wrong.

-I don't...get this?

-OK, that's a valid point.

-These last two points just strike me as weird play over scum play. What exactly is scummy about them?

- Marth explained his issues with BBM's townreads, while his issues with townreads in general were mentioned but not explained. Here I'm saying Marth is scummy because he tried to persuade people into giving up their townreads in general, without giving a reason on why those were bad.

- Let me explain again. Using most scumtells requires looking at the whole picture and not just at the thing you think is a scumtell. Marth is not having in mind that this game has progressed slowly with a huge amount of inactives to call BBM scummy for lack of scumreads and townreading a lot of people.

- Fair enough.

Also yeah, Mitsuki isn't looking too good WRT her reactions via Darros. More importantly though, is the fact that she was hard casing him and he didn't even mention it (as scum, I'd think that would bother him).

Not true.

Darros pushing kirsche towards the end of D1 seems more towny actually. Mitsuki says Darros bussed her hard in EM when they were buddies but, what she forgets is that was EM and Darros wasn't really bussing kirsche hard this game.

... is this actually a scumslip.

If it is I'll laugh at it forever.

[Prims]

People casing Elieson because of his suspicion on me should reconsider. Elie always suspects me on EM based on points that I consider bad, so I don't think it's alignment indicative. You can go and read some of those games if you want to check.

and this is very easy for him to abuse if he's aware of it, which he is. The rest of his content is also not much better.

[Mitsuki]

I know, the reasons why I think he's town are different.

[Prims]

why is elie town then

[BBM]

fuck yeah mega sceptile

I see that Elie hasn't actually posted yet this phase. I went through his ISO because of the case on him. I thought there was a lot more to his Mitsuki case but there isn't really. Elie, you mentioned near the end of D2 that you were starting to doubt your Mitsuki case. Why? The cereal box analogy was to do with me, not Mitsuki. And if you don't think Mitsuki is scum, who is scum?

I went over scorri's ISO and I can't really remember why I thought she was town but I still do. Gut based I guess but I just feel she's town.

Poly's made two posts going WOW I HAVE TO REREAD; if he makes a third one he should be lynched imo

Prims is probably town because he's giving a clear clause/situation in which his townread on me could change rather than just changing it later like he does as scum. Also just based on general effort and stuff.

gotta go pull out some more trees and shit I have so many scratches on my arms one would think I was a crazy cat lady

[Mitsuki]

Why don't you look for it in my ISO.

- Motivation seems genuine and tone seems townie.

- I don't think scum would be able to fake being biased so well.