isetrh Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 This is none of my business, but I can't help myself. Nice try, but I'm unimpressed by your logic. Again. No counterargument? Just a statement you don't agree? You could just suggest agreeing to disagree, but you're acting like Czar_Yoshi failed because you aren't convinced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alastor15243 Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 (edited) Alright, then. Can you prove that Vaike!Brady is bad without taking any other units into context? Not taking sides here, just nitpicking: That's probably a pretty bad example. How about a unit less un-ruinable than Brady? maybe Kjelle or Noire or Inigo? Edited October 17, 2014 by Alastor15243 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Mir Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 (edited) No counterargument? Just a statement you don't agree? You could just suggest agreeing to disagree, but you're acting like Czar_Yoshi failed because you aren't convinced. I already stated why I disagreed earlier (Serious mod clash, and poor inheritance)... Also, a part of why I'm not convinced is because I expected him to play the Apo card. Edited October 17, 2014 by Levant Caprice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
isetrh Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 I already stated why I disagreed earlier (Serious mod clash, and poor inheritance)... Also, a part of why I'm not convinced is because I expected him to play the Apo card. I think that's what he was addressing by saying that even though it's comparatively terrible, it still works fine. I don't know though, that's just what I got from it. Like I said, it's none of my business and I shouldn't have butted in in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burgerkong Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 (edited) I already stated why I disagreed earlier (Serious mod clash, and poor inheritance)... Also, a part of why I'm not convinced is because I expected him to play the Apo card. What other measurement is there ingame? Brady is absolutely crap in the main portion of the game thanks to Maribelle being a healer, and most children are pretty lacklustre without serious grinding. So what other measurement do you propose outside of Apo that isn't just as arbitrary or "soft"? Calling Czar's standards "soft" is just name-calling without any substance to back it up. In the end, we're left with arbitrary parameters here, since "good" is just relative. Vaike!Brady not good relative to other Brady's out there, true. But Czar is saying that he's salvageable and perfectly workable in any scenario you would need him in post-game, which is true (Brady having the base class set he does helps out too). Vaike!Brady, by virtue of Galeforce+Agg+Luna is already solid and better than some of the less-desirable combinations in the game. Technically, in terms of inheritance, Vaike gives Brady a lot of versatility. Assassin for potential 100% DS if needed, Axefaire, etc. Brady certainly doesn't need it and it's not optimal, but it's there if you want it. Edited October 17, 2014 by burgerkong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Mir Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 What other measurement is there ingame? Brady is absolutely crap in the main portion of the game thanks to Maribelle being a healer, and most children are pretty lacklustre without serious grinding. So what other measurement do you propose outside of Apo that isn't just as arbitrary or "soft"? Calling Czar's standards "soft" is just name-calling without any substance to back it up. In the end, we're left with arbitrary parameters here, since "good" is just relative. Vaike!Brady not good relative to other Brady's out there, true. But Czar is saying that he's salvageable and perfectly workable in any scenario you would need him in post-game, which is true (Brady having the base class set he does helps out too). Vaike!Brady, by virtue of Galeforce+Agg+Luna is already solid and better than some of the less-desirable combinations in the game. Technically, in terms of inheritance, Vaike gives Brady a lot of versatility. Assassin for potential 100% DS if needed, Axefaire, etc. Brady certainly doesn't need it and it's not optimal, but it's there if you want it. Well, I see your point, and actually agree there. I just think that it's VERY arbitrary to just pull a situation where everyone is capped out of your ass, because needless to say, that doesn't tell you the whole story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zaknafein Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 For starters, no-one really has any business ending as a Swordmaster. They're outclassed in everything that matters to them by Assassins, and everyone that has Swordmaster also has Assassin. The swordmaster pair up gives the most speed. The only reason I'd leave someone as a swordmaster is to hit an important threshold. Also, if you didn't want to grind and cap every stat, swordsmaster gives you a strong in-game proc and the relevant faire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alastor15243 Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 The swordmaster pair up gives the most speed. The only reason I'd leave someone as a swordmaster is to hit an important threshold. Also, if you didn't want to grind and cap every stat, swordsmaster gives you a strong in-game proc and the relevant faire. Also I'm pretty sure Swordmaster as a partner is a given for any dodge tanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burgerkong Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Well, I see your point, and actually agree there. I just think that it's VERY arbitrary to just pull a situation where everyone is capped out of your ass, because needless to say, that doesn't tell you the whole story. Sorry if I came across as confrontational in my previous post, but especially for children it's hard to define what makes them "good" outside of Apotheosis. "Good" is all relative. For example, Panne is absolutely amazing in Hard Mode thanks to Wyvern Rider reclass, making her an absolute beast statistically. However, by Apotheosis, she's absolutely garbage thanks to her small class set (lol Taguel). It's unreasonable to average the two or try to compare them since they're entirely different things. For an LTC-er/speedrunner for the main game, Panne is very good (to my knowledge anyway, don't LTC or speedrun). For an Apotheosis optimizer, she gives you Yarne and that's about it. In the end, it all depends on your method of measurement. My only gripe was that you were putting down Czar's without at least providing your own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Czar_Yoshi Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Well, I see your point, and actually agree there. I just think that it's VERY arbitrary to just pull a situation where everyone is capped out of your ass, because needless to say, that doesn't tell you the whole story. A situation where everyone's capped is what eventually happens when you play the same file for long enough. Everyone will eventually wind up there if they keep playing, regardless of their difficulty, pairings, restrictions, whatever. That's why I use it as a basis for ranking units against eachother: it's the only situation in the game where you can change one small gameplay variable and not get the entire list flipped on its head. Is it the only situation that can come up in the game? No. It's just the most stable. I'm sure there are a lot of other conditions under which I'd consider Vaike!Brady bad- probably including whatever conditions you had in mind when you say you think he's bad. But unless otherwise specified, I will assume S.Apo with no restrictions when terms such as "best" are floating around. Hopefully you don't have a problem with that. In that situation, Vaike!Brady will be lackluster- incredibly so- compared to what he could have been. However, he will not be a liability (such as Donnel in Lunatic+) and thus he's a useless space hog at worst. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ownagepuffs Posted October 17, 2014 Share Posted October 17, 2014 Kinda like how Gregor!Inigo is at worst Gregor with Galeforce or how Maiden!Lucina is at worst another Chrom (which is still a very good thing). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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