Differences Between Tharcia and Holy War

[Jotari]

In the second generation of Holy War, Seliph rescues Leif in Lenster Castle. They then force Bloom to flee to Conote where he sends his squadron of mage sisters, Faval with his holy weapon and Ishtar with hers, against Lenster, likely forcing the player to reinforce Leif at Lenster again. After that the layout of the land and plot would imply Leif brings the charge against Bloom in Conote yet things play out very differently in Thracia 776. Lenster is only attacked once, Seliph saves him and they move onto Conote and Mantser respectively. Leif never resolves his plot with Bloom even though by all rights they should fight twice and the mage sisters, Faval and Ishtar never appear to attack the player. I get that they're different games and have different chapter set ups but the second siege of Lenster at least could have been pulled off in a single chapter. It's not like anything particularly important happens in Chapter 21 anyway. Not to mention having Faval on your side in Thracia would have not only been fantastic for the last few chapters, but in terms of plot it would have made a lot of sense considering Leif starts feeling inadequate compared Sety and Seliph because they have major Holy Blood. Having another Holy Weapon user fighting along side him would have expressed that even more. So what do you guys think? Are you happy the way things turned out in Thracia? Would you rather the two games had a plot a little more in line with each other? Or do you have any other theories/ideas as to why there's such a discrepancy?

[Cymbalina's Revenge]

In the second generation of Holy War, Seliph rescues Leif in Lenster Castle. They then force Bloom to flee to Conote where he sends his squadron of mage sisters, Faval with his holy weapon and Ishtar with hers, against Lenster, likely forcing the player to reinforce Leif at Lenster again. After that the layout of the land and plot would imply Leif brings the charge against Bloom in Conote yet things play out very differently in Thracia 776. Lenster is only attacked once, Seliph saves him and they move onto Conote and Mantser respectively. Leif never resolves his plot with Bloom even though by all rights they should fight twice and the mage sisters, Faval and Ishtar never appear to attack the player. I get that they're different games and have different chapter set ups but the second siege of Lenster at least could have been pulled off in a single chapter. It's not like anything particularly important happens in Chapter 21 anyway. Not to mention having Faval on your side in Thracia would have not only been fantastic for the last few chapters, but in terms of plot it would have made a lot of sense considering Leif starts feeling inadequate compared Sety and Seliph because they have major Holy Blood. Having another Holy Weapon user fighting along side him would have expressed that even more. So what do you guys think? Are you happy the way things turned out in Thracia? Would you rather the two games had a plot a little more in line with each other? Or do you have any other theories/ideas as to why there's such a discrepancy?

The lack of Faval and Patty is interesting given that the unused portraits of Asaello and Daisy hint that their niche in the plot might've been considered at some point. But whereas we got Nanna instead of Janne and Ced instead of Hawk in the finished FE5, Briggid's kids got kicked to the curb, mentioned only in a certain character's ending bio. Maybe dealing with Briggid's kids in the game would've been too thorny given that particular spoilerriffic surprise?

I'm not sure if I'm satisfied with the way FE5 plays out with Seliph taking down the "real" threat (Blume) in Conote while Leif'n'Ced deal with Manster. On the one hand it does ram home yet again that Leif is not actually the main hero of the saga these characters are in... but we kind of get that point, already. To have Leif able to face down Blume, with boss quotes and all, in FE4 and yet denied the opportunity in FE5 is kind of sad.

Yeah. I guess I've accepted the two different versions without ever being 100% sure of which one I prefer.

[Jotari]

The lack of Faval and Patty is interesting given that the unused portraits of Asaello and Daisy hint that their niche in the plot might've been considered at some point. But whereas we got Nanna instead of Janne and Ced instead of Hawk in the finished FE5, Briggid's kids got kicked to the curb, mentioned only in a certain character's ending bio. Maybe dealing with Briggid's kids in the game would've been too thorny given that particular spoilerriffic surprise?

Oh wow, I completely forgot Evyle was Brigid. If Faval and Patty were around it could have added a lot more to that sub plot and make it come less out of nowhere in the ending.

[momogeek2141]

But literally no one in Leaf's army knows Patty or Faval well, so I understand that they don't show up. Even Eyvel doesn't know them until endgame. However, like you said, the plots are slightly different. EG, Delmud ditches Seliph to join Leaf, Leaf attacks Manster instead of Conote, etc. Veld was pathetic, they should have made Bloom or Ishtar the final boss, facing the Tor Hammer.

[Jotari]

But literally no one in Leaf's army knows Patty or Faval well, so I understand that they don't show up. Even Eyvel doesn't know them until endgame. However, like you said, the plots are slightly different. EG, Delmud ditches Seliph to join Leaf, Leaf attacks Manster instead of Conote, etc. Veld was pathetic, they should have made Bloom or Ishtar the final boss, facing the Tor Hammer.

Delmund might have known Patty. I don't think it would have been too incongruous if she showed up beside him and she in turn could have recruited Faval as she does in Holy War.

[Baldrick]

Faval's probably in Blume's army fighting against Seliph, and so is recruited offscreen. But having a chapter at Conote, and Faval/Patty having a bigger role in the Eyvel subplot would have been cool. Possible ideas to be implemented in the remake.

[Jotari]

Possible ideas to be implemented in the remake.

Unfortunately, I think fighting Blume would be to radically different a change for a straight up remake. The Mage Sisters, Ishtar and Faval could potentially show up on the field in the rather plot empty Chapter 21.

[BrightBow]

The lack of Faval and Patty is interesting given that the unused portraits of Asaello and Daisy hint that their niche in the plot might've been considered at some point. But whereas we got Nanna instead of Janne and Ced instead of Hawk in the finished FE5, Briggid's kids got kicked to the curb, mentioned only in a certain character's ending bio. Maybe dealing with Briggid's kids in the game would've been too thorny given that particular spoilerriffic surprise?

That's an interesting observation. I never paid attention to this but now that you mention it, there does seem to be a pattern to the unused portraits. Assuming Hawk and Jeane would have just replaced their counterparts, the rest of them point towards Blume. I mean, there is also Arhur who would be in Thracia in pursuit of revenge on Blume. And since he is paired up with Fee/Femina, she might have ended up being roped in his affairs as well. (And Karin just so happens to look for Sety for the same reason as Fee)

To me, this looks like Blume might have been intended to be a main villain and those characters got axed once that plotline got pushed into the background.

Anyway, I do think that it would be tricky to give Blume a major villain role in Thracia without very fundamental changes. I mean, the fact that he is supposed to not be all that evil and opposed to the child hunting would put him into a really difficult position. Defeating him would be quite daunting since all it does is to remind you of the real bastards like Julius and Hilda that you didn't get to fight.

Not to mention that focusing on him would end up dragging all those big names of the FE4 story into the plot as well. And then things would get really messy.

Maybe that's the reason why the game focuses mostly on new villains: So that we can have more of a sense of closure at the end of the game.

Edited November 17, 2014 by BrightBow

[Refa]

These differences exist because Thracia (what is this Tharcia game, anyways) is fundamentally an unfinished game; this can be seen in many aspects of the game.

[dondon151]

don't let's pretend that ishtar would have been a good final boss. ced would ORKO her just as easily as veld, lol.

[Jotari]

These differences exist because Thracia (what is this Tharcia game, anyways) is fundamentally an unfinished game; this can be seen in many aspects of the game.

That might be the case for the lack of Ishtar and Faval but notable lack of Blume seems intentional per the reason BrightBow pointed out. If they wanted to make it the climax then it probably would have taken as much time to make as it did to make the Veld finale. They kind of also built up Manster earlier in the game. I suppose it could have been like a pre climax climax but it would feel sort of weak, freeing the country and then ending the game taking one last castle, and they were kind of pushing the chapter limit as it was with all the gaiden chapters. Blume also wasn't built up at all throughout the game, (I think I can only remember one scene with him and I'm not sure if he was even there) so if it is something that they planned I imagine they changed their mind rather early.

Edited November 17, 2014 by Jotari

[BrightBow]

That might be the case for the lack of Ishtar and Faval but notable lack of Blume seems intentional per the reason BrightBow pointed out. If they wanted to make it the climax then it probably would have taken as much time to make as it did to make the Veld finale. They kind of also built up Manster earlier in the game. I suppose it could have been like a pre climax climax but it would feel sort of weak, freeing the country and then ending the game taking one last castle, and they were kind of pushing the chapter limit as it was with all the gaiden chapters. Blume also wasn't built up at all throughout the game, (I think I can only remember one scene with him and I'm not sure if he was even there) so if it is something that they planned I imagine they changed their mind rather early.

Blume seems to only show up for a single scene in chapter 19, giving orders to the boss of that chapter to recapture Lenster after Leaf failed with the liberation of Alster. He gets 3 lines.

Edited November 17, 2014 by BrightBow

[Cymbalina's Revenge]

That's an interesting observation. I never paid attention to this but now that you mention it, there does seem to be a pattern to the unused portraits. Assuming Hawk and Jeane would have just replaced their counterparts, the rest of them point towards Blume. I mean, there is also Arhur who would be in Thracia in pursuit of revenge on Blume. And since he is paired up with Fee/Femina, she might have ended up being roped in his affairs as well. (And Karin just so happens to look for Sety for the same reason as Fee)

To me, this looks like Blume might have been intended to be a main villain and those characters got axed once that plotline got pushed into the background.

Anyway, I do think that it would be tricky to give Blume a major villain role in Thracia without very fundamental changes. I mean, the fact that he is supposed to not be all that evil and opposed to the child hunting would put him into a really difficult position. Defeating him would be quite daunting since all it does is to remind you of the real bastards like Julius and Hilda that you didn't get to fight.

Not to mention that focusing on him would end up dragging all those big names of the FE4 story into the plot as well. And then things would get really messy.

Maybe that's the reason why the game focuses mostly on new villains: So that we can have more of a sense of closure at the end of the game.

I don't know. Dethroning the actual "King" sitting on what is meant to be Leif's turf would've arguably have provided more closure than just beating up Veld, more of a sense of "YES we liberated the North." He's opposed to the child hunting but he's a usurper. The whole scheme to unify Thracia under Leif demands Blume's death, or at the very least running him out of town. And, as you said, the presence of Arthur and Asaello both would seem to point to more of Blume and specifically to a showdown at Conote.

The game we get just gives this weirdo asterisk to Leif's status as "The Liberator of Northern Thracia" and that appears to be 100% intentional. Leif saved the day, except Seliph kinda did actually. But Leif deserves to be the king anyway because he's the last male heir, except Fergus is secretly royalty. Well, Leif can marry Miranda and make everything legit except hell no he's not gonna do that. And oh yeah, Travant wasn't such a bad guy after all.

@_@

[Jotari]

Blume seems to only show up for a single scene in chapter 19, giving orders to the boss of that chapter to recapture Lenster after Leaf failed with the liberation of Alster. He gets 3 lines.

Wow. Regardless as to whether he was going to be a major antagonist, he certainly needed a more significant appearance than that. The scene you mentioned doesn't even establish that guy is Blume, Usurper King of the entire region. He could be replaced by any random general, hell he could have been replaced by the general that's there, talking to his troops instead. I'd actually rather he didn't appear at all instead of getting such a minor appearance like that. Though while we're on the subject, it would have been cool if Ishtore and Liza showed up at some point. I liked their brief appearance in Holy War.