Should you be able to kill the final boss in one hit?

[Jotari]

So bit of a philosophical question here. Should the final boss be such an immense threat that it can't be felled by a single character, or should min maxing be so effective that practically any character can kill the final boss with enough set up?

[Shinehollow]

I prefer I challenge with my games,so I'd say an immense threat.I mean,I maxed Eirika's attack somehow in the Sacred Stones,and she two hit the final boss on difficult.Where's the fun in that?I say bring on the challenge!

[Dragoncat]

Hmm I'd say immense threat, but I do like the other option too.

[Person123]

I'd really like if the Final bosses required a bit more strategy than just overpowering them through brute force, although it's more for gameplay reasons than anything philosophical.

[BBM]

I don't think it should be possible for one character to ORKO the final boss by themselves... maybe it should be possible with clever use of your units to kill them in turn with your entire team, but if one character can do it in one round or two rounds if you heal + dance them that's just kind of an anti-climax IMO.

[Baldrick]

It depends on what role they play in the plot. An antagonist that's meant to be on a different level to the protagonists should be a protracted battle - Ashera works fairly well in that regard. For an antagonist that's on a similar power level, the challenge should be in actually reaching them.

[Jotari]

I'd really like if the Final bosses required a bit more strategy than just overpowering them through brute force, although it's more for gameplay reasons than anything philosophical.

Philosophy of gameplay is a legtimit philosophy.

[Florete]

I don't like the idea of just a boss alone in the first place. Wailing on a single enemy is almost never going to be a problem as long as the player has one or two healers (although if the boss at least moves like in PoR hard, that makes things a bit more interesting). This is why I think Radiant Dawn has the best finale in the series.

If a final boss can be taken out entirely by a single unit, that is the most underwhelming finale ever.

[Chiki]

What's worse is being able to capture the final boss like some hostage. Like in FE5. Lol.

[Snowy_One]

No. The boss should have to take multiple hits to fell. This really irritated me about FE9 and part of what I liked about FE10. The final boss of 9 could be killed VERY easily while 10's took some time and effort to bring down and even the non-blessed characters could aid as well.

[CT075]

It depends on what role they play in the plot. An antagonist that's meant to be on a different level to the protagonists should be a protracted battle - Ashera works fairly well in that regard. For an antagonist that's on a similar power level, the challenge should be in actually reaching them.

I really agree with this one

the example i always cite is super robot wars (we'll ignore the ridiculous player vs enemy numbers scaling for a moment and just look at number of hits needed which is usually consistent). the toughness of a boss is generally proportional to its threat level in-universe. a good example would be in Z3 - in one map, you're facing the literal god of the underworld, who clocks in at about 500k hp, which takes more or less about half of your army whaling on him with your strongest moves for a turn. two maps later, you're facing someone who is "only" one of the former top aces of your own army, with a machine explicitly stated to be equivalent (or weaker!) to the similar machines on your team. accordingly, he has "only" about 100k hp, which is still a lot, but only takes about two or three units hitting with full power to deplete (don't ask why you're going from fighting the god of the underworld to fighting terrorists in two chapters, it makes sense in context); the challenge of the boss is that he literally cannot miss, and he will always dodge the first thing you throw at him every turn

in FE, though, your antagonists are mostly human, with a mythical/etc antagonist at the very end - thus it makes sense that the bosses are on the same power scale as your units. I think ashera was a very well-done boss in this regard, as was the fire dragon to a lesser degree. both are explicitly on a higher power spectrum than the "mere humans" that make up your army, and are accordingly more difficult to ORKO. veld is the same thing, on the other side of the spectrum - he may be the "final boss", but at the end of the day he's a lopto priest with a cool toy, and isn't really at all different from the other soldiers you've been facing up to that point. something like idoun or formortiis or grima is pathetic, though - they're supposed to be some kind of ultimate power, and then they get wrecked instantly

[Jotari]

The worst thing about Grima is that the game pretty much tells you to mop the floor with him on turn 2.It says the enemies are infinitely spawning and gives you a safe spot to move all your units into on the first turn (of course with rescue/galeforce you can easily do it turn 1). He has five range attacks and some nifty skills you have to watch out for but the game literally says "just ignore everything else and kill him to get this over and done with" and gives him defensive status to suit this claim. Still not as disappointing as Idoun though.

[Shadow Mir]

To put it simply, I'd consider it a VERY big anti-climax if a boss could be easily beaten by only one unit, particularly since most FE last bosses are on a higher power spectrum than the humans that comprise your army.

EDIT:

The worst thing about Grima is that the game pretty much tells you to mop the floor with him on turn 2.It says the enemies are infinitely spawning and gives you a safe spot to move all your units into on the first turn (of course with rescue/galeforce you can easily do it turn 1). He has five range attacks and some nifty skills you have to watch out for but the game literally says "just ignore everything else and kill him to get this over and done with" and gives him defensive status to suit this claim. Still not as disappointing as Idoun though.

Or Fomortiis.

Also, is difficulty a consideration here? Because I'd consider Lunatic Grima pretty tough to kill, what with 53 defenses and 110 evade.

Edited December 16, 2014 by Levant Caprice

[Klokinator]

The fire dragon needed another 500 HP and strong enemy reinforcements. I literally couldn't make him challenging enough in Chaos Mode because of that fucking 127 HP limit.

[Knight]

If perhaps final bosses like Formortis or Grima had more competence and bulk to survive long enough for the reinforcements to be a threat, then the Final Boss would be more threatening. Ashera is a step in the right direction.

[Jotari]

To put it simply, I'd consider it a VERY big anti-climax if a boss could be easily beaten by only one unit, particularly since most FE last bosses are on a higher power spectrum than the humans that comprise your army.

EDIT:

Or Fomortiis.

Also, is difficulty a consideration here? Because I'd consider Lunatic Grima pretty tough to kill, what with 53 defenses and 110 evade.

I personally don't recall every having any trouble with Grima on Lunatic but Awakening is a special case in how ridiculously OP you can make all your characters. And even with 53 defense and 110 evade, the set up of the battle itself is promoting a quick fight rather than an epic battle.

Fomortiis went down pretty fast too but I recall being more disappointed with Idoun. Maybe because the game built up her character's arc so much in the chapter proceeding it (and the game itself was kind of building it up for me since it was a second playthough, the first of which I didn't get to her). Regardless she went down in a single hit from Roy on the first turn. I think gave him a little bit of favoritism but I didn't go in there intending to solo her. You should not be able to accidentally 1RKO the final boss on hard mode (doubly so with what is considered one of the worst lords in the series). Fomortiis took at least one or two attacks on the few times I've faced him.

Edited December 16, 2014 by Jotari

[Thor Odinson]

Also, is difficulty a consideration here? Because I'd consider Lunatic Grima pretty tough to kill, what with 53 defenses and 110 evade.

Grima can be onerounded on Lunatic if you know what you're doing

He's not particularly hard

The one really hard boss is FE12 Lunatic Medeus

Edited December 16, 2014 by Thor Odinson

[Dandragon]

The fire dragon needed another 500 HP and strong enemy reinforcements. I literally couldn't make him challenging enough in Chaos Mode because of that fucking 127 HP limit.

You're horrible and evil

[momogeek2141]

I honestly think that the final level should be similar to thracia 776 (IE very challenging), but the final boss should be similar to Ashera. Shadow Dragon H5 kind of made it like this, what with silver braves and all, but Medeus wasn't epic, just ridiculous, and the only way to not die to him is to have someone who won't be doubled. Which sucks.

[Sentacotus]

Grima is pretty challenging on Lunatic + from what I hear with the skills and what not (I only played up to Lunatic didn't bother with +). But on that note Ashera is hands down the best boss in the series not only is she a god with a deathly attack and potential to OHKO your units but she has to be finished off with Ike which does add a bit of strategy to it. Oh and she can only be damaged by blessed weapons...

[dondon151]

the difference between a boss requiring 2 units to defeat and a boss requiring 4 units to defeat is that i have to input more commands with 4 units.

i think every person in this thread who praises ashera as a good final boss but condemns veld for being a pushover is being hypocritical. ashera herself is actually easily 2RKO'd; the complex task that you have complete beforehand is to remove her auras. veld is also very easily defeated, but the complex task that you have to complete in order to fight him is similar (and there are many more ways to go about doing it).

so there seems to be an inconsistency here: the auras are a part of ashera, but the dark warlords are not a part of veld? that might be true plot-wise, but it makes no difference mechanically. we seem to group these elements differently, but i hypothesize that we'd be less likely to consider ashera + auras as a single entity if either the auras weren't directly adjacent to ashera or if ashera didn't visually appear on the map prior to the auras being defeated.

i mean, suppose for a moment that instead of 8 auras, you had 6; they are spread out across the map; each of them is secured behind a locked door and flanked by spirits; they can actually do nasty stuff to you; ashera doesn't appear on the map until all 6 auras have been defeated. wow, that's almost exactly the same as FE5's final chapter.

Edited December 16, 2014 by dondon151

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

So I go more for the gameplay part than for the philosophical part.

Most of the final bosses are lame, because skills or low HP make them vulnerable.

Ashera is pretty much the only exception, because crits (triangles excluded) and skills against her auras and herself are negated thanks mantle.
First have destroy all the auras with a total HP of 720 before you have access to fight her.

However it's theoretically possible in the first turn too even in normal and hard mode without stat boosts.

Edited December 16, 2014 by The Taninator

[Thor Odinson]

Anyway, I agree with Baldrick and Cam. Veld's just a dude, so your (fighting unit of choice) being able to throw him over their shoulders makes sense. There's nothing wrong with a final boss that can be soloed given that it makes sense storywise and that the chapter itself is a challenge. I'd like to consider the entire final chapter as the final boss, if you will.

FE12 L Medeus gets over to the bullshit territory, though, like I mentioned him to be the one really hard boss just by himself. I like to have a bit more options in who can reliably do some damage to the final boss without dying, for one. Though I'll admit, setting up the Agains for Marth to move that many times was an interesting exercise in itself.

[Chiki]

the difference between a boss requiring 2 units to defeat and a boss requiring 4 units to defeat is that i have to input more commands with 4 units.

i think every person in this thread who praises ashera as a good final boss but condemns veld for being a pushover is being hypocritical. ashera herself is actually easily 2RKO'd; the complex task that you have complete beforehand is to remove her auras. veld is also very easily defeated, but the complex task that you have to complete in order to fight him is similar (and there are many more ways to go about doing it).

so there seems to be an inconsistency here: the auras are a part of ashera, but the dark warlords are not a part of veld? that might be true plot-wise, but it makes no difference mechanically. we seem to group these elements differently, but i hypothesize that we'd be less likely to consider ashera + auras as a single entity if either the auras weren't directly adjacent to ashera or if ashera didn't visually appear on the map prior to the auras being defeated.

i mean, suppose for a moment that instead of 8 auras, you had 6; they are spread out across the map; each of them is secured behind a locked door and flanked by spirits; they can actually do nasty stuff to you; ashera doesn't appear on the map until all 6 auras have been defeated. wow, that's almost exactly the same as FE5's final chapter.

Where to draw the line? You have to beat every chapter in the game apart from final to get to Ashera or Veld. You have to beat every part of the endgame chapter to get to Ashera. You have to beat a lot of random enemies to get to Ashnard. Why aren't they considered a part of his boss battle? And so on.

[Shadow Mir]

I personally don't recall every having any trouble with Grima on Lunatic but Awakening is a special case in how ridiculously OP you can make all your characters. And even with 53 defense and 110 evade, the set up of the battle itself is promoting a quick fight rather than an epic battle.

Fomortiis went down pretty fast too but I recall being more disappointed with Idoun. Maybe because the game built up her character's arc so much in the chapter proceeding it (and the game itself was kind of building it up for me since it was a second playthough, the first of which I didn't get to her). Regardless she went down in a single hit from Roy on the first turn. I think gave him a little bit of favoritism but I didn't go in there intending to solo her. You should not be able to accidentally 1RKO the final boss on hard mode (doubly so with what is considered one of the worst lords in the series). Fomortiis took at least one or two attacks on the few times I've faced him.

So in other words, it's more about where you draw the line. For the record, I was thinking more along the lines of a no grind playthrough.