Should you be able to kill the final boss in one hit?

[Sentacotus]

So in other words, it's more about where you draw the line. For the record, I was thinking more along the lines of a no grind playthrough.

Probably why Ashera is a popular boss (aside from being a tough cookie) since you can't really grind in RD

[dondon151]

Where to draw the line? You have to beat every chapter in the game apart from final to get to Ashera or Veld. You have to beat every part of the endgame chapter to get to Ashera. You have to beat a lot of random enemies to get to Ashnard. Why aren't they considered a part of his boss battle? And so on.

you can go one of two ways: either expand the definition of a boss battle or narrow it to include only the boss itself. i think it's more consistent to go the latter route, which means that the ashera battle doesn't include the auras, and she's a cakewalk with the auras gone.

[Florete]

you can go one of two ways: either expand the definition of a boss battle or narrow it to include only the boss itself. i think it's more consistent to go the latter route, which means that the ashera battle doesn't include the auras, and she's a cakewalk with the auras gone.

That's not true, though. The Auras are Ashera. They are literally labeled "Ashera," and when you attack them, the animation shows the characters attacking Ashera. "Aura" is only used in the dialogue and among us to distinguish.

[Paperblade]

Grima can be onerounded on Lunatic if you know what you're doing

He's not particularly hard

The one really hard boss is FE12 Lunatic Medeus

Lunatic Medeus is interesting because on his own he's pretty much just a glorified Fire Dragon; he doesn't move and you beat him up while healing in between your smackdowns, but what makes him interesting is two things: one, that you will be overloaded with reinforcements and get murdered if you don't kill him in a turn, and that two, this is made harder by the sisters who you have to kill/recruit in that same turn. This in turn means you have to do a lot of prepwork for this fight before the final chapter, as the only unit that really does respectable damage to Medeus is Marth (it was thought that a powerful enough MU w/a forge could replace Marth with more lucky crits but I don't know if anyone's actually tested this), who is pretty much an aura and seizebot up until that point. On top of that, you have to conserve Again staves and do some other staff finagling.

In that sense, none of the final bosses are that hard since they either don't move or do move and can be one rounded (or they truly suck and are both). Personally, I like the smaller more hectic fights like Ashera and Medeus than something like Veld or Julius. I think the "boss that's only human" would be more interesting if he moved around and beat the shit out of your units and actually threatened you during the fight rather than being some prize after you take out his subordinates. This risks him being zerged down so it would probably also need something like Mantle where only a select few units can do significant damage to them.

Edited December 16, 2014 by Paperblade

[Thor Odinson]

At least Marth's crit chance isn't dicks, so I'm thankful for that. I needed one ~20-25% crit (forgot exact numbers) between 3 hits. IIRC, Marth 4HKOs, but I was only able to get him to be Agained twice due to not having enough A rank staff users.

[General Banzai]

Berdo is a shit villain but his final chapter is fantastic, as is all of Thracia's gameplay

In fact his personal anticlimax after fighting such gods as Elf and Zombie Galzus really embodies everything Thracia is about

Actually now that I think about it the final chapters of Thracia and FERD (all five parts) are very very similar

Edited December 16, 2014 by General Banzai

[Knight]

I consider the auras to be part of Ashera, sort of extensions to Ashera's life. I haven't played FE5, but I'm pretty sure the surrounding foes around Veld don't need to be killed in order to defeat Veld himself, so I don't consider them to be part of him, while Ashera's aura must be destroyed first, so it can be considered part of her total life bar.

[dondon151]

I consider the auras to be part of Ashera, sort of extensions to Ashera's life. I haven't played FE5, but I'm pretty sure the surrounding foes around Veld don't need to be killed in order to defeat Veld himself, so I don't consider them to be part of him, while Ashera's aura must be destroyed first, so it can be considered part of her total life bar.

this is not a useful distinction

veld is also way easier than he should be because warp bypasses the dual threat of a million berserkers and his stone tome.

[Knight]

I didn't know about the stone tome, I guess I've underestimated Veld, but I still think the Aura is more part of Ashera as a boss than Veld's minions are to him, mainly because it actually feels like it is part of her, it's her spell, it damages you, she appears in the animation. If we look at everything from a technical standpoint, there's not much of a difference, but there's more to a boss than simply being challenging and imposing, they have to feel challenging and imposing as well. If I kill all of Veld's minions and then off him off in a single turn while he's only been using stone this whole time, then I don't really feel really satisfied as he never felt like that much more of a threat himself, whereas Ashera's aura feels like it is her attacking your units, so it feels like you've been engaged more in a longer struggle against the foe, it doesn't matter if the aura is technically a different unit.

Edited December 16, 2014 by Knight

[Baldrick]

Don't you have to defeat the 6 dark warlords in order to gain access to Veld? I don't see why you wouldn't count them as well.

[Knight]

Don't you have to defeat the 6 dark warlords in order to gain access to Veld? I don't see why you wouldn't count them as well.

I don't count the boss rush before Nergal as part of Nergal himself, I'd say they are separate parts of the chapter, perhaps sub-bosses. Perhaps I shouldn't be arguing against a game I know little about though.

Edited December 16, 2014 by Knight

[Chiki]

Don't you have to defeat the 6 dark warlords in order to gain access to Veld? I don't see why you wouldn't count them as well.

Well, by that reasoning, you need to defeat Chapter 1, 2, 3 and so on to gain access to Veld. Where to draw the line?

[Baldrick]

@Knight; we could call the auras sub-bosses as well. Ashera doesn't seem any worse for wear then they die, they can't be too integral to her being.

@Chiki; the between chapter saves (discounting savestates and the like since they're not always available). If Veld kills Leaf, you need to beat the warlords again, but you don't need to beat the other chapters again.

[Knight]

@Knight; we could call the auras sub-bosses as well. Ashera doesn't seem any worse for wear then they die, they can't be too integral to her being.

But Ashera is still an active part of the fight, also I don't want to have to restate this so:

If we look at everything from a technical standpoint, there's not much of a difference, but there's more to a boss than simply being challenging and imposing, they have to feel challenging and imposing as well. If I kill all of Veld's minions and then off him off in a single turn while he's only been using stone this whole time, then I don't really feel really satisfied as he never felt like that much more of a threat himself, whereas Ashera's aura feels like it is her attacking your units, so it feels like you've been engaged more in a longer struggle against the foe, it doesn't matter if the aura is technically a different unit.

To demonstrate this in another type of game, lets say there's a new Zelda game, Ganondorf's the last boss, kay. There are two alternative bosses, let's say both are equally difficult. One involves you killing numerous Darknuts and Redeads in order for you to reach Ganondorf who you slay in like a couple hits, he's been doing nothing but throwing a few energy balls at you and hiding like a coward. Option two is Ganondorf is suspended in midair, being held up by some magical pillars he's created with a spell. He does effectively the same thing, sits there and throws energy balls at you, you have to go destroy the pillars. The pillars though shoot laser beams and blast shockwaves or something along those lines, you destroy them, kill Ganondorf in a couple hits, done. From a sheer gameplay perspective, both options are a challenge to the player and require skill to complete, both are of equal length and Ganondorf's involvement is the same in both instances (technically). However, option 2 feels like more of a boss fight because at least you get the idea that the pillars are a part of Ganon's attacks and it also provides an encounter with a type of defence the player hasn't seen before and is unique to the fight against Ganondorf. Ashera is the same, you feel like her aura is part of her, the aura is something unique to her, etc.

[Kirie]

To be honest, I don't really care. Fire Emblem games and mechanics don't really lend themselves well to an epic, long battle against a single foe; rather, the strength of the gameplay is dealing with large numbers of multiple enemies in various map situations. For me, a final chapter with a challenging map and multiple units to take down is a better and more satisfying experience than taking down a single big baddy, no matter how easy or tough it is to kill. If I wanted a final villain with tonnes of HP that I take down in a long, drawn out battle, I'll play a more traditional RPG.

[Jotari]

So in other words, it's more about where you draw the line. For the record, I was thinking more along the lines of a no grind playthrough.

Even without grinding you can still make super uber characters in Awakening. Pair Up, Rally Spectrum (and a few more lesser rallies), high supports and forged brave weapons just destroy everything.

the difference between a boss requiring 2 units to defeat and a boss requiring 4 units to defeat is that i have to input more commands with 4 units.

i think every person in this thread who praises ashera as a good final boss but condemns veld for being a pushover is being hypocritical. ashera herself is actually easily 2RKO'd; the complex task that you have complete beforehand is to remove her auras. veld is also very easily defeated, but the complex task that you have to complete in order to fight him is similar (and there are many more ways to go about doing it).

so there seems to be an inconsistency here: the auras are a part of ashera, but the dark warlords are not a part of veld? that might be true plot-wise, but it makes no difference mechanically. we seem to group these elements differently, but i hypothesize that we'd be less likely to consider ashera + auras as a single entity if either the auras weren't directly adjacent to ashera or if ashera didn't visually appear on the map prior to the auras being defeated.

i mean, suppose for a moment that instead of 8 auras, you had 6; they are spread out across the map; each of them is secured behind a locked door and flanked by spirits; they can actually do nasty stuff to you; ashera doesn't appear on the map until all 6 auras have been defeated. wow, that's almost exactly the same as FE5's final chapter.

1: No one was actually complaining about Veld or condemning on the first page in so far as I can see. The closest is Chiki jokingly saying you should be able to capture final bosses as a hostage. Others say Veld was good because plot wise he isn't a super dragon while someone else praised the final level as the final boss. So while I do like the comparison and the discussion, I don't want anything to think this thread was made to bash Veld.

2:I agree with too many people to quote. The aesthetic is important for the mood and feel of the battle. The fact that you can see Ashera the whole time is important. Veld remains behind closed doors the entire chapter until you've seized all the points. Ashera speaks to you directly even after the battle is under way and uses map attacks to constantly remind us of her presence. If Veld could even be seen during the entire final chapter and could attack with long range magic it would make a difference. But the way Veld is presented, the actual battle itself could almost be a separate map like the Fire Dragon, which is another chapter that's similar in the way there are units that need to be defeated before you can move on to the final boss.

[DragonLord]

No.

[Baldrick]

Aesthetically, Ashera is much more epic than Veld, and there's a good reason for that.

One is a deity with deity-level power, unconcerned by your attempts to resist, intent on impartially (in her mind) passing judgement on you. The other is a man who's not even the head honcho, with an MO of manipulating and having other people do his dirty work, who has no intention of fighting you personally but is forced to do so when you run through all his meat-shields. Much like the rest of Thracia, it's a desperate, unglamorous struggle. The final battle isn't even that big a climax; Leaf has liberated his country, but not united it (Trabant/Areone say hi) nor fought the main enemy (Manfroy/Julius say hi). But it still works as a single chapter because he's physcially there and commanding the enemy, even if he's hiding like a coward and doesn't engage you until the very end.

[Snowy_One]

I think it's also important to remember the difference between 'can' and 'will likely'. It's true Ashera CAN be 2RKO'ed, but what are the odds that the average non-meta player will do-so? Compared to Veld (who I, admittedly, know nothing about)?

[NinjaMonkey]

No, you shouldn't be able to one-shot the final boss.

[dondon151]

there's no point in directly addressing snowy because he has me blocked but

- max str ike with no supports and all tides does 30 x2 HP damage to ashera

max str ike with at least 31 spd is likely in basically every playthrough because you can BEXP him there if he doesn't have max str or 31 spd.

so basically any other unit who has at least 31 spd and can muster 65 atk with a normal weapon or 50 atk with a brave weapon can help 2RKO ashera. units with canto get the benefit of all tides whereas units without canto only benefit from one tide because of positioning constraints. so we have:

- all mounted units except for valkyrie

- all laguz royals

and i'm going to stop counting there because that's already a ton of units.

veld's pretty easy to ORKO but you basically need either a double crit with a strong weapon (physical units with max str need at least 13 MT, magical units with max mag need at least 10 MT) or skill activations to increase damage output. trying to hit + crit veld with a physical unit is basically impossible (requires 44 atk), but magic users require less mag and can also benefit from M up. i think pretty much anyone with high enough stats and weapon rank, except for high priests, can ORKO veld with a rigged double crit, but your most reliable options are asvel, mareeta, galzus, and ced.

[Garnef]

Idea: A multiple phase final boss, with the first form being sort of a puzzle boss, and then the final form being a simple "Overpower him". That said, the overpower part shouldn't be able to be one-shotted by a single character, provided that character doesn't Brave Sword + Astra.

[Jotari]

The first time I fought Veld I actually had a bit of a panic attack because I expected him to go down super easy thanks to his reputation. A whole game full of Thracia never thought me to be careful. I rushed him with Leif leaving all my other units throughout the map having seized the towers. Can't quite remember how I saved it in the end. I think I might have stolen his stone using the magic squares + thief stave leaving my crusader scroll induced Leif to kill him on the enemy phase counter attack.

[Irysa]

(it was thought that a powerful enough MU w/a forge could replace Marth with more lucky crits but I don't know if anyone's actually tested this

This isn't happening, even capped strength units with superforges and max weapon rank are only doing about 30 damage to him with a crit, which is barely more than Marth does without a crit at capped str A Swords Falchion (24). The only way to actually put significant dents in H3 Medeus without Marth is to kamikaze forged Thoron sages critting into him since his res stat is 10 less than his def stat, so you'll get 60 damage for a crit. Obviously since Medeus has 30 speed, no magic wielding class avoids getting doubled so they have to die or be the finishing blow. I have never bothered to actually get the Aum staff but I suppose that could help, but it's overall way more complicated than just feeding Marth some Dragons on Anri's Way and then stuffing him full of statboosters from the secret shop before the final 3 chapters. I think it's easier to just either rig 2 crits or rig at least 1 crit and 2 hits. 30%~ critrate from Marth is not too bad and there's a map save. It might be interesting to try a FE11 esque strategy where you suicide crit bomb your Gharnef killer who's been giving every single spirit dust to cap Mag into Medeus, then Aum, rescue them and get them to crit again, but this really isn't any more effective than letting Marth do it.

When we talk about boss difficulty, I'm pretty much on board with what everyone else here is saying - giant stat beatsticks aren't interesting. Medeus himself isn't actually interesting either, it's the fact that you're forced to kill him in 2 turns and do all this micromanaging with rescue/again convoying and trading and the like with the bishops you're recruiting from around him.

That being said though, I might be the only one who thinks Idenn isn't really supposed to be a really dramatic final battle. Zephiel is more of the normal final boss, kind of like Hardin. Idenn isn't really hyped up as much of an antagonist at all, Jahn spends the entire prelude to you fighting her talking about how stupidly powerful the Divine Weapons are. Not to mention she's repeatedly stated to pretty much just be an empty shell who churns out war dragons. I think IS just really really wanted you to use Roy, no matter how weak he was to deal with her at the end beacuse of the whole Harmut's pity stuff, and I'm okay with that.

Edited December 16, 2014 by Irysa

[CT075]

my recollection of veld is capturing him with base marty

it was great