The Fir Coat Posted March 11, 2015 Share Posted March 11, 2015 (edited) Kodiak was the one who was telling me my run was stupid for using Rallybot Morgan (over and over again mind you, read his post he says it like 6 times) both here and on GameFAQs so I'm not the one who opened the hostilities.I'll admit I misspoke when typing about Mercenary being the second best class. What I meant was that having Armsthrift allows you to do certain things and Bow Knight is the best non-sorcerer class in the game for L+. Bow Knight is the real goal, and that can be achieved quicker through Archer as an Archer can take more risks and doesn't need to worry about Counter. Edited March 11, 2015 by IsAnthraxBayad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varidan Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 I think this all just goes to show that anyone can be good if time is invested in them... hell, i bet someone could make something of Ricken's archer class access in L+ if they really wanted to. But if you just play through the game normally on say hard or vanilla lunatic, with minimal grinding/wep breaking/boss abusing or w/e can be used to gain exp advantage, and take into the amount of time needed to invest in a char, Donnel is probly the worst, with Ricken and Virion close behind, due to wtf class options. I haven't been able to access L+, but from what it sounds, its pretty much just pick your 4-5 gods and pray. When i finish Lunatic, i plan to play with assassin sully, or maybe great knight support sully, and i'm sure i could pull that off if i wanted to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Czar_Yoshi Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 I'll admit I misspoke when typing about Mercenary being the second best class. What I meant was that having Armsthrift allows you to do certain things and Bow Knight is the best non-sorcerer class in the game for L+. Bow Knight is the real goal, and that can be achieved quicker through Archer as an Archer can take more risks and doesn't need to worry about Counter. No such thing as speed in a run containing 200-400 turn maps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yunanuy Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 Kodiak was the one who was telling me my run was stupid for using Rallybot Morgan (over and over again mind you, read his post he says it like 6 times) both here and on GameFAQs so I'm not the one who opened the hostilities. I'll admit I misspoke when typing about Mercenary being the second best class. What I meant was that having Armsthrift allows you to do certain things and Bow Knight is the best non-sorcerer class in the game for L+. Bow Knight is the real goal, and that can be achieved quicker through Archer as an Archer can take more risks and doesn't need to worry about Counter. You're being called out on Rallybot Morgan, because using Morgan as a Rallybot is probably the most nonoptimal thing you could do besides not using Morgan at all. I'd rather stay out of this discussion, but your arguments lack consistency and I have to call you out on this as it seems no one cared enoughnoticed. 2. He has the second best class in the game in Mercenary. Armsthrift + his ridonk luck means he can forge a Brave Bow early and use it for the entire game. This makes up for his lack of Bowfaire. Bow Knight is the second strongest promoted class, only losing to Sorcerer. • Discussing Donnel efficiency • Suggesting Bow Knight is better than Sniper in L+ when Longbows exist (yes I'm aware Donnel is still the topic at hand) • Adding Archer to your argument which connects to your previous statement of Donnel's goal to become a Bow Knight Donnel can't become an Archer. Sharing your thoughts on optimizing and efficiency is fine and all. But there's a limit to how far you can take it if you're not willing to accept other peoples thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omega zero Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 I don't think he's saying Donnel can be an archer. He's saying that by using Don as a Merc, you are free to reclass other units into Archer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yunanuy Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 (edited) I don't think he's saying Donnel can be an archer. He's saying that by using Don as a Merc, you are free to reclass other units into Archer. Then let's all just throw constincency out of the window then, since that seems to be a-okay. Yet it still doesn't make any sense, strengthens his point, or change anything at all. Because guess what, if you don't use Donnel, you are still free to reclass other units into Archers. Donnel does not affect another units reclassing option in any possible way. Time spent on making those other Archer units better, is way more efficient than spending 200+ turns to make one unit who doesn't even have access to the class "godly". My point is that his Archer-argument which had no correlation with what he was talking about, came out of nowhere. I don't even wanna talk about Sorcerer. Donnel is just more trouble than it's worth in Lunatic+... If you want to use him because you like him, sure, go ahead. No one can stop you. Just don't start spreading "optimal facts". That's why people are getting themselves fired up. Edited March 12, 2015 by Val'air Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 (edited) No, I know that SF is full of turncount tryhards. I posted my playthrough to gamefaqs instead of this place because at least when people are hostile on gamefaqs I can properly troll them back. According to the Serenes Forest Code of Conduct, trolling is not allowed. Thus, your attitude has to go. Whether you follow your attitude out the door is up to you. Edited March 12, 2015 by eclipse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knusperkeks Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 (edited) Edit: looks like Val'air was faster than me. His post is essentially identical to mine, bar a few details. Kodiak was the one who was telling me my run was stupid for using Rallybot Morgan (over and over again mind you, read his post he says it like 6 times) both here and on GameFAQs so I'm not the one who opened the hostilities. I do not see Kodiak in this thread. Trying to shift the blame now, are we? Did you finally decided to read my post(or even this whole thread, for that matter)? (Since I am the one who calls you out on that whole rally bot morgan business there) What I meant was that having Armsthrift allows you to do certain things. Guess you didn't read it after all. we know that even better than you, because you fail to understand why Avatar goes through Mercenary. I mentioned the things one can do with Armsthrift in #512. Bow Knight is the best non-sorcerer class in the game for L+. Bow Knight is the real goal, and that can be achieved quicker through Archer as an Archer can take more risks and doesn't need to worry about Counter. I'd argue that BK is the best class on L+ period, and I use your playlog as proof. If it wasn't as I said, it wouldn't make sense for Avatar to go tact -> merc -> BK when one can just to tact -> merc -> dark mage -> sorc. Now, this might be begging the question, but it is also what you have done. You went for BK on many characters and claim that Sorcerers are better. Explain yourself in a way that is non-contradictory. If you worry about counter damage on your way to BK, you bench Donnel (Villager->Mercenary->BK) and start training up Chrom(Lord->Archer) or lolRicken (Mage->Archer) or the Archest_Archer(Archer from the start!) himself instead. In fact, in my first playthrough of L+, I used Virion all until the very end of the game (this was before I discovered Interceptor's guide). He is better than people give him credit for, even if most of his biggest advantages fade as early as mid game (instant D rank Iron Bow, which means super early Long Bow from renown/spotpass teams, good pair-up bonuses, immune to counter is always sweet). Why do I mention Virion? Because he is objectively better than Donnel in every single aspect you mention. Do I shout Virion is the best character ever? No, because I know better than that. You would have seen this argument coming and could have prevented it from being put on display if you had read my long post. Edited March 12, 2015 by Knusperkeks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yunanuy Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 If you worry about counter damage on your way to BK, you bench Donnel (Villager->Mercenary->BK) and start training up Chrom(Lord->Archer) or lolRicken (Mage->Archer) or the Archest_Archer(Archer from the start!) himself instead. STAHL. Don't forget Stahl. Stahl can also re-class into Archer. So don't forget the poor guy :( Stahl > Ricken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knusperkeks Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 Yes, I just recently found out that Stahl can become an archer too, never paid very much attention to him. The more you know. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irysa Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 (edited) Damn, I'm tempted to try use Archer Stahl or something on my current Luna+ file now. Edited March 16, 2015 by Irysa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moishe Oofnik Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 (edited) Why did he use Rally bot morgan. Is that thing even a good rally bot? Edited March 16, 2015 by TTPK_Tal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omega zero Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 I mean, Rally Spectrum is great, but making ANY rally bot on Lunatic no-grind seems like too much work. Unless the definition of rally bot in this context is just 1 or 2 rallies. Even if you do give Morgan Rally Spectrum, shouldn't he end up as a solid combat unit anyway? It's a level 15 skill, and if you go through Tactician you get OP Veteran. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irysa Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 (edited) Brady or Owain are alright rallybots for nogrind lunatic. Marry Maribelle/Lissa off to Libra via Rescue Staff abuse and the Rescue abuse to get them married should be able to let them pass down down Rally Magic (Sage Libra) Speed (Falco Mari/Lissa), then Brady can instant promote and grab Rally Luck by himself. Admittedly not terribly impressive, but very feasible. Rally Resistance is an option too but way less desirable than Rally Speed. Edited March 16, 2015 by Irysa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Mir Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 Why did he use Rally bot morgan. Is that thing even a good rally bot Dunno, but reducing Morgan to a rallybot is absolutely laughable. And even if you do get Rally Spectrum, its usefulness is kinda limited by the fact that Morgan's going to be one of your best combat units. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Czar_Yoshi Posted March 16, 2015 Share Posted March 16, 2015 (edited) Why did he use Rally bot morgan. Is that thing even a good rally bot? He actually is good at it in terms of getting lots of Rallies but ultimately useless due to the fact that he'll mostly be rallying 1st gen units with worse mods than him, so a large part of the benefit from Rallying is just going to cancel out the loss from not using him. Overall it winds up being a fairly small total performance gain, but still at the cost of losing a very capable PPO turn (or two. Dunno if he managed to get Morgan GF, what with giving Donnel that first Seal). Also, between Falco Sumia (where she should go after DF if married to Chrom and trained), Basilio and possible Sage Lissa, you've got a large amount of offensive Rallies already, so the only thing Morgan is likely to bring to the table is Spectrum, which while powerful is still only +4/ Edited March 16, 2015 by Czar_Yoshi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yunanuy Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 Damn, I'm tempted to try use Archer Stahl or something on my current Luna+ file now. I used him on my first L+ playthrough. I got him through GK before I re-classed him into Sniper and he wrecked house. Stahl was a saving grace, yet people don't pay him much attention in no-grind runs. Probably cause his appearance and personality is rather bland, haha :P ...he's a bit troublesome to level up though in the beginning, so that might also be another factor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varidan Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 Well then, while we're at it... Archer Tharja anyone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmine Sword Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 No, you need to go even further into archer land. Try archer Anna. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Czar_Yoshi Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 Yeah Stahl has a lot of really good earlygame girls to compete with for exp. He also runs a decent risk of being Spd screwed, and if that happens it's going to take forever to get him ahead of the curve. Most people just don't bother. Those that do (and get him going) generally have good experiences, though. Personally I think if he came five chapters later with some extra levels, weapon ranks and bases, he'd be really good (Awakening has a lot more good females than good males ingame and he's a good father, so he's got that going for him as well). He also does have a bit of an issue in being a more underwhelming swordguy at base than Avatar, Chrom, and even Bronze Sword Fred, so he's very outclassed there as well. Well then, while we're at it... Archer Tharja anyone? E weapons without Discipline is pretty much never something you want to take that late into the game. She doesn't even have a Str stat to help make up for the low power Bronzes (though this affects all non-Virion Archers, it's also worth noting that the game does not give you any E-rank Bows and they're only buyable from one shop, so Risen can easily ruin your day). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yunanuy Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 Yeah Stahl has a lot of really good earlygame girls to compete with for exp. He also runs a decent risk of being Spd screwed, and if that happens it's going to take forever to get him ahead of the curve. Most people just don't bother. Those that do (and get him going) generally have good experiences, though. Personally I think if he came five chapters later with some extra levels, weapon ranks and bases, he'd be really good (Awakening has a lot more good females than good males ingame and he's a good father, so he's got that going for him as well). He also does have a bit of an issue in being a more underwhelming swordguy at base than Avatar, Chrom, and even Bronze Sword Fred, so he's very outclassed there as well. I think I had very good spd growths, so that was never an issue. I think I traded Sully's lance over to him as well, can't remember using her at that time... Weapon ranks were never a problem either because of Discipline. It should be said though: I went out of my way to use Stahl, because I had never really used him much except for his manseed. You're gonna have some males in your team, so I think focusing on the ones who are viable and join early is better either way. I can't remember ever actually using Miriel or Ricken in a Lunatic or a + run. Miriel was always just a Fire tome to me, and Ricken's bases are so...sigh. No, you need to go even further into archer land. Try archer Anna. YES. I WILL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Czar_Yoshi Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 (edited) Ricken is very bad, Miriel is very good. The former can do chip damage in one chapter at best, but the latter has many opportunities for early chip exp due to being ranged, can rack up many kills in Cht.3 if not training Sumia due to Avatar x Chrom, and is generally ready to step into the role of magical powerhouse right about when Avatar wants to leave. Thanks to the Bonus Box she'll have a complete monopoly on lots of rare and powerful Tomes that it might take Ricken 'til Valm to be able to use (and with less Mag to back them up). She also gives Laurent, who is a huge boss in Lunatic+. Edited March 17, 2015 by Czar_Yoshi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elibean Spaceman Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 In terms of stats, probably Ricken as a Cavelier and Archer. Keep in mind that I haven't played FE13 yet, so I'm actually not 100% sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ownagepuffs Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 Ricken is very bad, Miriel is very good. The former can do chip damage in one chapter at best, but the latter has many opportunities for early chip exp due to being ranged, can rack up many kills in Cht.3 if not training Sumia due to Avatar x Chrom, and is generally ready to step into the role of magical powerhouse right about when Avatar wants to leave. Thanks to the Bonus Box she'll have a complete monopoly on lots of rare and powerful Tomes that it might take Ricken 'til Valm to be able to use (and with less Mag to back them up). She also gives Laurent, who is a huge boss in Lunatic+. Correction: Laurent is a huge boss everywhere.My biggest regret by far was not getting Laurent. He also has the fasted Gen 2 support speed with Lucina, so bonus points to that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yunanuy Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 (edited) Ricken is very bad, Miriel is very good. The former can do chip damage in one chapter at best[...] I know Miriel is good, I just never used her much ingame in the higher difficulties, besides chip damage or pair-up fodder. And whenever I got to Chapter 4/5, "everyone" was so-to-speak better than her, so I saw no reason to give her any more exp than necessary. I like having dedicated healers and rescuers available, so I always prioritize Lissa & Maribelle. Not to mention that they can abuse Rescue for exp in later chapters. Yes, Miriel gets staff-access through Sage, but I don't like giving her the kill-exp that I think is better served elsewhere. Correction: Laurent is a huge boss everywhere. LaurentxLucina is gold. Edited March 17, 2015 by Val'air Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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