Robert Stewart Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 A discussion of Camus archetypes and no mention of Shiharam? For shame, people. I'm 90% certain that we're going to see some sort of sympathetic/misguided villain in the game. It's such a staple of the series that I can't imagine a Fire Emblem without it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darros Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 I totally didn't know who Mustafa was until I actually read this thread. If FE14 is gonna include a sympathetic boss here's to hoping they show up for more than one chapter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Stewart Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 a sympathetic boss character doesn't necessarily need to appear in more than one chapter. However, s/he should make an impact beyond that chapter. Take Shiharam, who IIRC only appears in Chapter 20. However, there's so much buildup to that conflict beforehand and he still has an impact on things after his death that he leaves a much bigger impact on the player than Mustafa does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Splodge Posted February 7, 2015 Share Posted February 7, 2015 a sympathetic boss character doesn't necessarily need to appear in more than one chapter. However, s/he should make an impact beyond that chapter. Take Shiharam, who IIRC only appears in Chapter 20. However, there's so much buildup to that conflict beforehand and he still has an impact on things after his death that he leaves a much bigger impact on the player than Mustafa does. I think that's the opposite of what Viole is saying. I think what he's trying to get across is that he preferred the fact that Mustafa wasn't that important in the long run because it felt like this is what's happening to all the soldiers? So it seems much sadder because of the fact that in the long run nobody really cares about what he did? Correct mt if i'm wrong Viole. As for my opinion, I'm all for more fleshed out characters, boss or otherwise. If the way that is going to be done is through more Camus' then fair enough. The only problem I can see is if they overuse it in 14 and it becomes bland. Personally, I much prefer the Hardin archetype, as I prefer tragic to sad characters. Whilst the majority of Hardins have been the final boss/secondary antagonist I still see no problem doing what FE10 did with Dhenginsea. The problem with this archetype is that it is much easier to make this kind of character feel forced and hackney then the Camus, due to the often "he wasn't loved" back-story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragrath Posted February 8, 2015 Share Posted February 8, 2015 A few antagonists that you can sympathize with is always refreshing. Imagine a map where the player grievously wounds the enemy leader and his second in command leads the rest of the troops in a last stand so their liege lord can escape. You could even make it better by having SEVERAL non recruit-able named characters on the map who know each other to show that the enemy is not so different than the player's army. Alternatively, it could be an "Escape" map for the ENEMY, and you need to defeat them before the boss escapes. Fire Emblem: Prepare to Cry Edition I'd love this honestly the thing that I like the least in FE games is how few of the enemies are respectable it also would be an interesting turn on events perhaps the enemies got a hold of something dangerous or some critical knowledge you can't afford to let them have... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thanibomb Posted February 8, 2015 Author Share Posted February 8, 2015 I think that's the opposite of what Viole is saying. I think what he's trying to get across is that he preferred the fact that Mustafa wasn't that important in the long run because it felt like this is what's happening to all the soldiers? So it seems much sadder because of the fact that in the long run nobody really cares about what he did? Correct mt if i'm wrong Viole. You're right. Of course, I would love fleshed out Camuses as well, but maybe stick one or two Mustafa one-shot bosses in there as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NekoKnight Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 I think that's the opposite of what Viole is saying. I think what he's trying to get across is that he preferred the fact that Mustafa wasn't that important in the long run because it felt like this is what's happening to all the soldiers? So it seems much sadder because of the fact that in the long run nobody really cares about what he did? Correct mt if i'm wrong Viole. As for my opinion, I'm all for more fleshed out characters, boss or otherwise. If the way that is going to be done is through more Camus' then fair enough. The only problem I can see is if they overuse it in 14 and it becomes bland. Personally, I much prefer the Hardin archetype, as I prefer tragic to sad characters. Whilst the majority of Hardins have been the final boss/secondary antagonist I still see no problem doing what FE10 did with Dhenginsea. The problem with this archetype is that it is much easier to make this kind of character feel forced and hackney then the Camus, due to the often "he wasn't loved" back-story. These are definitely not archetypes and tropes to overuse. If there are too many of such characters, the emotions will seem forced and cheapen the effect. I think the tragic/sad characters need to fit into a larger narrative where the player can feel what they did was ultimately the right thing to do, but feel saddened by the losses suffered by friend and foe alike. There is room in the story for developed, tragic figures you have to defeat for the greater good and one-shot characters who exist primarily to show that kind and honorable people exist on the enemy side as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faye Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 A sympathetic villain is fine as long as I can actually recruit him. 8U; I feel bad when I have to kill a genuinely nice or sympathetic boss because they cling to their honor or whatever eheh... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knight Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 (edited) A sympathetic villain is fine as long as I can actually recruit him. 8U; I feel bad when I have to kill a genuinely nice or sympathetic boss because they cling to their honor or whatever eheh... That's war for ya, I think it makes a better statement by having them not recruitable (but you don't need to kill Camus at least, that's a plus right?). Not every character is just going to join the side of good, or the side you think is good, just cause you tell them it's the good side. As seen in FE3 and FE10, the wars that the main characters started in the last games didn't lead to a happy ending for everyone. Also Mufasa-esque character would be awesome too. Edited February 9, 2015 by Knight Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DomesticHausCat Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 I'm trying to think of a game that doesn't have at least one of these. The only one I'm blanking on is FE8, probably because I only played it once though. I gotta say I really like how they handled it with Shiharam and Eltosian. Shiharam because he's brought up a lot before and after his death, he's got a big impact on the story for a chapter boss. SPOILERS Eltosian was awesome because he was best friends with Sigurd and Cuan and their friendship was shown quite a bit before the epic fight. That was very well done I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Book of Ereshkigal Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 The only one I'm blanking on is FE8, probably because I only played it once though. Selena. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knight Falchion Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 (edited) If we are going to have another Mustafa-esque character, I would also agree with those saying to give him/her some actual development and maybe a few chapters over just one. Randomly, going back to how ineffective Mustafa's death quote of "Please, spare my men," was due to you most likely killing all of his men before that point- I think that's something that could be played with in some neat ways. Make killing as few of the character's men as possible a bonus objective of the chapter. Or maybe slightly split paths (like an A chapter and a B chapter) depending on if you choose to spare his men or not, the decision maybe being based on a limit of units you can kill. I actually think this could make both a really cool moment and a fun map with multiple ways of tackling it, and it could work in the East vs. West theme of FE14 thus far. Edited February 9, 2015 by The Legendary Falchion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Book of Ereshkigal Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 It'd be an interesting chapter objective and if this game happens to bring back Elincia's mercy skill, it would be useful Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knight Falchion Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 It would certainly play to both my white knight and murderous tendencies ​and yes, it would make something like mercy useful and worthwhile. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thanibomb Posted February 14, 2015 Author Share Posted February 14, 2015 Perhaps the game will have a saint-sin system, even though most games that utilize such a feature tend to be rather terrible... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ambulz Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 Perhaps the game will have a saint-sin system, even though most games that utilize such a feature tend to be rather terrible... Right. If the whole choosing sides thing does come in to play, I'd definitely want my choice to be ambiguous. I'm not the type in games to do asshole things, and so being required to for the sake of maybe a few different units or whatever wouldn't really sit well with me. Furthermore, I think this sympathy dynamic for bosses would definitely come into play for Marx and Lobster Shogun, even if we don't kill either of them in the end. ... Actually, that just gave me a brilliant idea: What if we had to kill one of them, while the other survives? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quasimopho13 Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 (edited) I don't think they need to do the Camus archetype on every character, but I would like them to add depth to more characters so that they're believable. Something like how people can be saints to their friends, but mean to their siblings. The main villains especially need more depth. Alvis is a great example of a well-developed character (it's obvious that I have some bias). *SPOILERS* "He genuinely wanted to create a peaceful world, but dirtied his hands to do it through political manipulation. He was even willing to sacrifices someone for the greater good. However he still loved his brother and wanted to protect him as well as felt guilty for his actions." . Edited February 15, 2015 by quasimopho13 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saifors Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 Part of me wants and part of me doesn't, I want it because feels and I don't want it because I really felt bad when killing Mustafa, the few lines he had made me not want to kill him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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