feplus Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 This has been a straightforward thread I think. Two main areas of debate: 1. Whether or not Casual Mode is a worse version of Classic Mode. 2. Whether or not the inclusion of an optional, worse mode adversely affects the quality of the game. Point 2 is where this debate isn't making much traction. No surprise considering how you answer is pretty subjective. Wario is definitely a libertarian because all he cares about is himself and his money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter Nightblood Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 Two things I don't know, but I do know in about 12,000 pages we'll have moved on to whether Wario is a libertarian. This comment is now on Miiverse. I believe casual mode should return. However, I also believe that you aren't getting the true FE experience until you have felt the pain of having to restart a map because a Fighter somehow got that 1% critical rate to kill one of your units. Also, Wario is not a libertarian. Instead he is highly conservative due to the fact that he believes in less market regulations so he can earn more money with his WarioWare™ line of goods. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radiant head Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 (edited) I mean no offense but it's just hard to have much sympathy for people who are offended at the existence of an optional casual mode. Edited February 19, 2015 by Radiant head Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vascela Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 This has been a straightforward thread I think. Two main areas of debate: 1. Whether or not Casual Mode is a worse version of Classic Mode. 2. Whether or not the inclusion of an optional, worse mode adversely affects the quality of the game. Point 2 is where this debate isn't making much traction. No surprise considering how you answer is pretty subjective. Wario is definitely a libertarian because all he cares about is himself and his money. You can also flip question two 180 degrees (from an extremist standpoint): that the inclusion of a better mode (casual) positively affects the quality of the game. Or you can also take a neutral approach: that the inclusion of an equal mode (casual) which does not affect the game positively or negatively. Even in the case of neutral, since it doesn't hurt that means it's fair game to include it given that there is enough time and extra resources to include it. You and I both know that adding casual doesn't remove any experience with Classic. Because casual isn't a better or worse experience; it's a different experience that could be better (but also conversely, could be worse) from person to person. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loki Laufeyson Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 that is, after any discussion about Wario's political leanings, ofc Hes a dirty capitalist of course. What, you mean the argument is not about ethics in game development/journalism? Harr... Unlockables for completing Classic mode is probably the best option. Unlockable maps, unit(s), or some sort of goodie. However, it would be lame to make it too punishing. Like say, theres a really cool guy you can unlock in Classic mode, but making him/her unlockable only after Lunatic+/Classic would suck. (Unless the unit in question is SUPER OP, like Black Knight in Tellius style OP) That way, people wont feel like they are missing out on too much by not playing the really punishing hard mode. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magical Glace Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 This comment is now on Miiverse.Replied to that. Mainly the jump the gunners saying people thought it wasn't coming back. Really everyone here has come to terms with it being here to stay. Whether they like it is another story Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 That's why the Avatar needs to be removed. Losers who can't waifu shit without an Avatar need to git gud. Tone it down. I know you know better than this. Supports and calculations are only 2 fundamentals of gameplay that are pretty important (even coming from a "purist" standpoint, you would want to keep those successful features). And that was thinking in the moment. There are still other sections of gameplay such as adapting to weapon ranks, access of gaidens, and weighing the value of visiting villages, resource allocation. Anyone can go on and on and on about core gameplay mechanics that make FE... well, FE. And if you tally it all up, if you omit permadeath (which isn't what anyone is asking for, people want both) even then you still have FE. You cut off someone's hand and they are still human. You cut off a leg, and he's still human. From an extreme view that classic is removed (no matter how blasphemous), there is still plenty of FE rich content to still hold true its name. There's also stuff like weapon triangle, and terrain, off the top of my head. Some of the things that are mentioned are true in other SRPGs (resource allocation); others are more true in FE (stupid gaiden requirements in FE11). We're not knocking the vanilla ice-cream out of people's hands. Why do we bother you. I'd rather hang around people who seem to have an interest in letting people play what they want - they'll probably be friendlier. If I see a community that's bent on doing things ONE WAY and anyone that deviates from the ONE WAY is a heretic, I'll leave - those people don't sound friendly unless you see things ONLY from their point of view. A community that alienates outsiders hastens its own death, and I happen to be quite fond of SF. This carries over to actions outside of the forum, too. In mafia terms, don't drop scumtells, especially when you have nothing to gain from it. No, I made up that hypothetical as a thought experiment. Here's a hint: cut out the hypothetical thought experiments, because this world isn't a hypothetical thought experiment. It looks like you're trying to justify your way of thinking without proof, and I had a huge issue with this elsewhere. If the previous sentence wasn't your intent (as you're the only one who knows what you're trying to get at, and why), reread what you wrote, and reword it until your post matches your intent. At this point my only goal is to convince people that opposing the inclusion of Casual doesn't make you an elitist, new player-hating, self-serving, myopic jerk. Irsya pulled this off - there's reasons why I didn't mind his stance, even if I didn't agree with it. I'd be willing to do a dissection of what I liked and didn't like about his posts. I mean no offense but it's just hard to have much sympathy for people who are offended at the existence of an optional casual mode. Sometimes, one of the hardest things to do is to respect the other side, even if you think that they don't deserve it. This is one of those times. Alternately, stop thinking of this as "us vs. them", because that's when things get ugly. Really everyone here has come to terms with it being here to stay. Whether they like it is another story I think it's also a good predictor about how someone who started/still plays Casual will be treated by the community. I'm all for a bigger community, as long as it's capable of generating relevant discussion (so those whose only language is memes need to brush up on "how to be original"), while being friendly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
feplus Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 I'm growing uncomfortable with your posts, eclipse. You have made it clear you do not like my posting style or my thought experiments; that's fine. Parroting this incessantly adds nothing to the conversation other than drama. I would prefer if you'd focus on other posters more willing to engage with you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 I'm growing uncomfortable with your posts, eclipse. You have made it clear you do not like my posting style or my thought experiments; that's fine. Parroting this incessantly adds nothing to the conversation other than drama. I would prefer if you'd focus on other posters more willing to engage with you. If you're on these forums, we'll have to deal with each other, whether we like it or not. I can tell you what I don't like, and why, and then it will be up to you to determine whether or not you want to change. What bothers me most is that you fail to ask "why" - why I don't seem happy with your posts. I can only guess as to what your intent is, but I know exactly what mine is - this holds true for everyone. From the final post I quoted from you, it sounds like you have a reason for posting what you do, but those reasons won't hold if your style is off-putting (which is true with the sample size of me). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
feplus Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 I did not ask because I do not care. Respectfully, your opinion on my posting style is not a high priority. If you or other moderators feel I've behaved in a way that violates Serenes forum policy, feel free to let me know using specific examples; calling my posts "off-putting" is vague to the point of meaninglessness. This exchange has nothing to do with Casual Mode. If you insist on continuing this conversation, please do so through a private message. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 I did not ask because I do not care. Respectfully, your opinion on my posting style is not a high priority. If you or other moderators feel I've behaved in a way that violates Serenes forum policy, feel free to let me know using specific examples; calling my posts "off-putting" is vague to the point of meaninglessness. This exchange has nothing to do with Casual Mode. If you insist on continuing this conversation, please do so through a private message. There is a reason why I will make this public - I intend on being held accountable to this, and I have absolutely no problems letting the world know my modding thought process. The bolded statement is a problem - not because I care about how you think of me, but because disregarding other people's opinions (especially when they're concerning you as a poster) increases the likelihood of problems in the future, and I'd rather stick to deleting accidental double-posts. If you'd like to know the HOW and WHY of the previous sentence, feel free to PM me. Regardless, part of my job is to sort out messy threads, which means as long as you hold this attitude, you're increasing the odds of interacting with me. In other words, if you never, ever want to see me like this, think very hard about what you post, and how it will be received by someone who values both honesty and empathy - I'm a lot happier when I don't have to be serious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
feplus Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 I do not disregard the opinions of others. I have tried to take seriously objections made my way in this thread and in others. What I disregard is repetition. You have made your views on my posting style clearly known, in multiple threads. We get it. I respect your opinion and will do nothing to change my posting style so long as it conforms to forum etiquette. This is all so indulgent. I don't care to "think very hard about what I post" in order to satisfy your preferences. I feel no need for you to "tell me what you don't like, and why." I'm not especially interested in "why you don't seem happy with my posts." Every conversation we have been in becomes a test of my character. Maybe I'm lying about my experience with Lunatic+ to win an argument. Maybe I need to get my head out of the clouds. Maybe I should fix up my writing style; wouldn't want to be off-putting, right? Responding to these sorts of attacks again, and again, and again is a waste of my time. You are a person on a Fire Emblem forum who has been curt and hostile towards me. I have not enjoyed any of our exchanges and I'd prefer not to speak to you again. That is a reasonable request. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldrick Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 I'd rather hang around people who seem to have an interest in letting people play what they want - they'll probably be friendlier. If I see a community that's bent on doing things ONE WAY and anyone that deviates from the ONE WAY is a heretic, I'll leave - those people don't sound friendly unless you see things ONLY from their point of view. A community that alienates outsiders hastens its own death, and I happen to be quite fond of SF. I think most of the objection to Casual isn't that Casual Mode is "wrong", but you don't get the full experience unless you play Classic. I can't speak for everyone, but I have no hostility towards people who don’t want to play Classic at all. Even if one does feel they're being judged, this is one thread out of... however many there are on SF. Even most of the gameplay-related threads aren't mode-specific, so there's no reason to feel ostracized because you prefer Casual Mode. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arvilino Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 (edited) I think most of the objection to Casual isn't that Casual Mode is "wrong", but you don't get the full experience unless you play Classic. I can't speak for everyone, but I have no hostility towards people who don’t want to play Classic at all. Even if one does feel they're being judged, this is one thread out of... however many there are on SF. Even most of the gameplay-related threads aren't mode-specific, so there's no reason to feel ostracized because you prefer Casual Mode. Maybe the problem is that classic mode isn't the "Full Experience" it's just one way to experience the game. I don't play casual mode but personally my experience of the games are enhanced by information that the game doesn't give you that's available on Serenesforests and other resources, in desert chapters with hidden items I don't feel I'm missing out when I have a map infront of me with all the items shown, if there were ground sparkles like FE13 to make it easier to find hidden items I wouldn't complain,. Conversely I don't use the mid chapter saves in FE4, I don't think that means a lesser or partial experience comes from choosing not to save scum even though I could. Whereas someone else couldn't possibly believe not saving at the start of each turn but not using any information outside of the game and that's the way they enjoy the game best. To say either had the fuller experience would be dubious, the only differences worth discussing is how these are played and the consequences of the decisions. In short if people want to show proper respect to the players who play casual it's probably an idea to discard the notion they're missing out or implying that their experience with mode they like best is not "full", not everyone plays the game looking for the exact same thing and calling one a "Full Experience" makes it sound like there's a veiled disdain for the idea someone would choose to play casual over classic. Edited February 20, 2015 by arvilino Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irysa Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 (edited) I dunno, if a publisher cut the epilogue out of a book that has some important content in only one region, then that to me would definitely constitute as people reading that release not getting a full experience. I don't think that the localised version of FE10 is a full experience either because of the script squishing, especially in part 4, and the game is worse because of it. Permadeath is a mechanic, and it's absent in Casual Mode. Perhaps "full" is disingenuous since like I've already said, everyone's experience in the game is going to differ, so trying to determine a "100%" experience is difficult, if not close to impossible, but that's a bit closer to pedantry considering his point. Edited February 20, 2015 by Irysa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XeKr Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 (edited) I can’t keep pace. Someone summarize the past 20 pages as something other than a “filthy casual” discussion.I was going to post something much longer but time, etc, plus discussion went in crazy directions and it doesn’t seem that productive anymore (maybe later). Regardless, in brief:Re: a hypothetical “line” for design. There exists a billion dollar consulting industry for this. (the implication not that professionals may not comment, but that there’s a lot of considerations at play, even/especially with just the information we can easily access). We can speculate, but answers are far from trivial, especially if artistry is a consideration. However, it seems obvious that nude mode, etc are not in because of sales/pr reasons though (or at least Nintendo, being who they are, think this way).Re: the “real” or “true” or “full” FE experience. The discussion is mostly fine and certainly nuanced. All I will add/reiterate is; some notable population of people want to play FE games without permadeath (irrespective if one still considers them the “real” FE experience without it). They are indisputably a significant audience for this type of game and to also appeal to them, because they also matter to Nintendo/IS, there exists casual mode. (I do understand the “they don’t have to like FE” feeling as a fan)By now it’s fairly apparent that the trouble arises when someone makes a comment in the vein of (or that can be read as) “You’re playing the game wrong because you’re not playing Classic/using Marcus” (to draw the same analogy made somewhat earlier). Or something similar that emotionally escalates things. And this happens/ed, whether ever or still common or not in actuality, the implication persists. btw there is a reason SF is sometimes referred to as elitist by other communities/fans.Re: Nintendo design philosophy. Really? They’re probably the company most dedicated to increasing accessibility in gaming. Don’t get me started on melee vs. brawl/4. >_> (I will note though, perhaps fundamentally a multiplayer game)Re: nonprofits and such. tbh still don’t know how to reply to this naivety/idealism. tho, from anecdote, I may be overly cynical here. Even if one does feel they're being judged, this is one thread out of... however many there are on SF. Even most of the gameplay-related threads aren't mode-specific, so there's no reason to feel ostracized because you prefer Casual Mode. This is also the most prominent/replied topic in the new FE14 forum which is probably a bad impression (but considering the poll, perhaps not). Edited February 20, 2015 by XeKr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldrick Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 In short if people want to show proper respect to the players who play casual it's probably an idea to discard the notion they're missing out or implying that their experience with mode they like best is not "full", not everyone plays the game looking for the exact same thing and calling one a "Full Experience" makes it sound like there's a veiled disdain for the idea someone would choose to play casual over classic. That's certainly not my intention. In any case, the full experience isn't necessarily the best or most pleasant one; some people prefer FE without the pressure of permadeath making getting through some chapters a chore. My primary reason for opposing Casual Mode (since it's long since been buried under the avalanche of posts) is that people would avoid playing the earlier games just because they lack Casual Mode. The loss of permadeath as a defining feature of the series does mean something to me, but it's less important. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunwoo Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 My primary reason for opposing Casual Mode (since it's long since been buried under the avalanche of posts) is that people would avoid playing the earlier games just because they lack Casual Mode. The loss of permadeath as a defining feature of the series does mean something to me, but it's less important. While there will be some people who don't like permadeath in previous FEs and may not play the earlier games, you're making it sound like everyone who starts on casual mode will never play classic or the previous FEs, Baldrick. That's hardly true. One of my friends got Awakening for his birthday. It was his first FE game and I have both of his avatars in my logbook. They were done on normal casual but his favorite game is Sacred Stones, which is an earlier FE game that has permadeath. Another one of my friends started on classic mode, but he's not used to FE and he's not having an easy time with it. I think he should've probably started on casual and then moved onto classic once he got the hang of the gameplay better, but whatever. Another friend played on casual mode, but I don't think he likes FE too much so in his case it's not that permadeath will keep him from playing the earlier games but he just doesn't like it much. I feel like you're exaggerating the amount of people who wouldn't play earlier FE games because it doesn't have a casual mode. Yes, there will be some who are like that but that can't be avoided. You don't seem acknowledge that there are also people who will move onto classic mode and the older FEs even after starting with Awakening's casual mode, or that a casual mode could make it less stressful for certain people to learn the basics of FE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magical Glace Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 I have three friends that got into the games via FE13 One I don't discuss FE with much. One I want to coax into Classic And GBA One has since played FE4 and FE8 and prefers FE4 to either. Of the three, I get the most opportunities to talk FE with the second. Meaning he makes it noticeable to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldrick Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 @Boron; Sacred Stones has permadeath? Well, you learn something new every day. Who's to say your first friend wouldn't have done alright starting with savestates on Classic, or even normal Classic? It seems Casual Mode wasn't what attracted him to the series. Obviously it's not impossible that someone would start with Casual and then move on to Classic. But Classic with savestates would mostly remove the frustration associated with permadeath, and be much more likely to give players the confidence and skills to deal with normal Classic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sentacotus Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 @Taco: Reclass him to Knight so he can stab people in the heart with a trident. Good idea I just gotta find a way to get him grenades too. I think the Outrealms might have something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunwoo Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 My point is that the existence of a casual mode, a mode that my friend started in, didn't prevent him from moving backwards into the series and liking a game that has permadeath. Even if casual mode wasn't what actually attracted him to the series, neither of us can say for sure whether it helped him understand the gameplay of FE better and I'm in a better position to ask him about that if we need an answer. Whether the next game has classic with saves or casual or whatnot, I really don't care. However, I think you're exaggerating your main issue with casual mode (that new players won't want to play the older games because permadeath). Some people will feel that FE is just not their kind of game, casual mode or no casual mode, and other people might want to practice on casual and not worry about save states until they get the hang of FE gameplay. It's like … I feel like you're worried solely over a subgroup of players who may or may not be a major factor or not. I haven't seen anything that suggests people not wanting to play older games because they don't have casual mode are a significantly bigger chunk of new Awakening players or anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 You WILL have to deal with me, as long as you're on this forum - and if you actually take what I said to heart, it will be as just another voice in a thread, instead of one that's aimed towards you. I think most of the objection to Casual isn't that Casual Mode is "wrong", but you don't get the full experience unless you play Classic. I can't speak for everyone, but I have no hostility towards people who don’t want to play Classic at all. Even if one does feel they're being judged, this is one thread out of... however many there are on SF. Even most of the gameplay-related threads aren't mode-specific, so there's no reason to feel ostracized because you prefer Casual Mode. This comes across as "I don't mind you, but I don't like the mode you play", and it feels disjointed. Some of the specific threads don't take mode into account (say, "what skills should I put on X"), but others imply it ("how do I get past Chapter X" - how many people would say "park Lissa over THERE, to distract that enemy. . .but don't worry, she'll be back next chapter"?). Ideally, exactly zero people would care about mode outside of strategy-crafting, and this thread wouldn't exist. Realistically, there's an assumption of mode. . .which COULD be compared to certain human-rights issues, but this is a forum dedicated to a video game series, so I think the parallel isn't worth bringing up. Last I checked, no one was denied service because they play Normal/Casual! Why does it matter how someone gets into the older games. . .if at all? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Refa Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 With regards to incentivizing Classic Mode, it'd be really cool if you unlocked an Ironman Mode for beating it (this also has the added benefit of not bothering anyone who plays solely on Casual Mode, because why the fuck would they care about an Ironman Mode). Also 0% Growths Mode would be great as well... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weso12 Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 With regards to incentivizing Classic Mode, it'd be really cool if you unlocked an Ironman Mode for beating it (this also has the added benefit of not bothering anyone who plays solely on Casual Mode, because why the fuck would they care about an Ironman Mode). Also 0% Growths Mode would be great as well... That would be cool Ironman has been a self-imposed challenge of fire emblem for years, to make official would be cool, and resists the urge to cheat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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