Titania is the best in the game.

[Tino]

Mordecai has much higher move than an unpromoted Mist and is not likely to be near her at all. Same with Jill. And the bolded part: Don't even go to the fact/tier list thing. Your opinion isn't fact. No one's is.

Promoted Mist has about equal move to Mordecai. And I'm not stating my opinion, I'm stating facts, and I think I have said this for about the billionth time right now.

Just because someone is high tier doesn't mean they will be played, so how can you just assume everyone is using them? I agree those are all good characters, but you don't have to use them. You could just not use them and be fine. The only one you should assume everyone is using is Ike, as you actually have to. Like my current run: With the team I planned, it was only Ike until I got Marcia and Mist. Now, don't go all PEMN ape-shit on my ass, it's just an example. For the record, Jill and Mordy aren't planned for this run either.

We're going for max BEXP in debates, and oviously the God Tier and High Tier characters will be played then, because they help you gain it the most efficiently.

I don't know where you're finding all these exact enemy stats, but I can assure you Tormod isn't killing a damn thing when you get him without favoritism, except maybe a few soldiers. If you only ever used the characters that never needed a single mooch kill, you'd have a small team, and you'd possibly get raped come endgame as a result of using too many pre-promotes.

There aren't many characters that need mooch kills. Rolf needs them. That's a negativ. Tormod, who hits Resistance and actually can kill some things (even if those "things" would only be soldiers) which means he actually can level on a frequent basis.

I can't counter facts with personal experience, you're right. Was I doing that? I don't recall doing that. Also, every allied unit won't be given an exact fair share of kills, that's a bad idea in general, so I don't care what level you're placing him at.

Yes, you indeed were. And not only here, but a lot more.

I've proven why Rolf fails multiple times, then you say "not true because I've gotten my Rolf etc.

Your characters won't get an exact fair share of kills, no, but they're going to be very close. And again, we're not playing the game, we're debating. Just see the damn difference between the two things.

You haven't proven a thing to me, once again. I know you think I'm just an idiot with a thick skull at this point, but you showing me enemy stats and a low leveled Rolf won't convince me he's bad, I've seen him be good too many times. Yeah, PEMN, whatever, but are you going to call a unit that you've seen be awesome every time you used him bad because someone said he's bad? I don't think so.

I have given you the proof with the enemy stats, so you can't say I didn't prove a thing to you, unless you can counter it, which you apparently can't.

If statistics and other facts prove it, then yes, that unit is indeed bad, no matter how many times I've gotten that character to be the best on my team.

[Florete]

Promoted Mist has about equal move to Mordecai. And I'm not stating my opinion, I'm stating facts, and I think I have said this for about the billionth time right now.

That's why I said unpromoted Mist. So, when she needs it the most, she likely won't be getting it. You've been using facts to back up your opinions, that's all.

We're going for max BEXP in debates, and oviously the God Tier and High Tier characters will be played then, because they help you gain it the most efficiently.

Titania will be used for a time, but none of the others are needed for max BEXP, except possibly Boyd for... one chapter

There aren't many characters that need mooch kills. Rolf needs them. That's a negativ. Tormod, who hits Resistance and actually can kill some things (even if those "things" would only be soldiers) which means he actually can level on a frequent basis.

There are plenty that at least need a few. Want a list?

Yes, you indeed were. And not only here, but a lot more.

I've proven why Rolf fails multiple times, then you say "not true because I've gotten my Rolf etc.

I haven't said a single thing about what my Rolf's did to try to prove anything to you. Show me where I did.

Your characters won't get an exact fair share of kills, no, but they're going to be very close. And again, we're not playing the game, we're debating. Just see the damn difference between the two things.

I have given you the proof with the enemy stats, so you can't say I didn't prove a thing to you, unless you can counter it, which you apparently can't.

If statistics and other facts prove it, then yes, that unit is indeed bad, no matter how many times I've gotten that character to be the best on my team.

As a matter of interest, where are you getting the enemy stats?

You haven't proven it to me if I haven't chosen to believe what you're stating.

And if you're serious on that last line... What are you, a robot? This is for any character. If you've seen a character perform excellently for you multiple times, you'll just go "Oh, PEMN, so that unit is actually bad." Where's the individuality?

[Tino]

That's why I said unpromoted Mist. So, when she needs it the most, she likely won't be getting it. You've been using facts to back up your opinions, that's all.

Promoted Mist needs the durability boosts just as much as unpromoted Mist.

Titania will be used for a time, but none of the others are needed for max BEXP, except possibly Boyd for... one chapter

They are not needed, no, but here's the catch.

God Tier characters: Using them >>>>>>> Not using them

High Tier characters: Using them >>>> Not using them

Mid Tier characters: Decent characters. Not used.

Low Tier characters: Not using them >>>> using them

Bottom Tier character: Not using them >>>>>>>> using them

See what I mean? God and High Tier characters are the best characters to use, so that's why they are played instead of other characters.

There are plenty that at least need a few. Want a list?

Sure. Give me a list.

I haven't said a single thing about what my Rolf's did to try to prove anything to you. Show me where I did.

Meh, perhaps you weren't the one who said that, but you did use other personal experience, such as "I used Rolf as well".

You haven't proven it to me if I haven't chosen to believe what you're stating.

Then give a good argument against it.

And if you're serious on that last line... What are you, a robot? This is for any character. If you've seen a character perform excellently for you multiple times, you'll just go "Oh, PEMN, so that unit is actually bad." Where's the individuality?

A unit can be bad, but that doesn't mean I can't like a character. Liking characters and characters actually being good are two seperate things.

[Florete]

Sure. Give me a list.

Okay. I may miss some, and some aren't as bad as others, but pretty much everyone here needs at least a few mooch kills:

Soren

Mia

Ilyana

Rolf

Marcia

Volke (in terms of fighting, at least)

Brom

Nephenee

Zihark (Meh, can't remember too well, I may be wrong on him)

Sothe

Jill

Astrid

Gatrie (depending on how high he is)

Makalov

Tormod

The rest are pre-promotes/laguz and Ike, Oscar, Boyd, Rhys, Mist, and Kieran. Two of them are only healers to start. If someone up there doesn't need any help, show me how.

A unit can be bad, but that doesn't mean I can't like a character. Liking characters and characters actually being good are two seperate things.

Agreed, like how I like Karla, but I don't think she's a good unit. The point is, if all that determines good characters is averages and tier lists, there's no individuality and no reason for debates what-so-ever.

[CGV]

No direct combat + Only useful for half the chapter = Epic fail

Not only that, but he can't counter

It's a fact that snipers and archers are only useful on the player turn. They can't do shit on the enemy phase.

Archers see no action on the enemy phase at all, making them a liability on the field.

- Snipers see no action at all on the enemy phase

- Snipers see no direct combat, which is fail

You can use magic and long-range weapons for this. You take no damage and can still fight on the enemy phase.

Archers can't do anything on the enemy phase and that's it

It doesn't change the fact that he's useless on the enemy phase

Mages can heal, attack from both close and long range (and even from 3~10 range if they want) and can actually do something on the enemy phase. Archers can only attack 50% of the time

So that means you give your archer one turn of action on the enemy turn in the entire chapter. That still fails massively compared to what your non-archer characters can do on the enemy phase.

Mages can actually counter enemy attacks, archers can't. Mages can choose when they are countered, archers can't

All I have said all the time is that snipers can't counter melee combat

And that's all without even considering his inability to counter and his inability to attack from one space away

Tino, I speak for everyone here in saying "WE GET THAT ARCHERS CAN FUCKING COUNTER ATTACK ON THE ENEMY PHASE!!!"

Please don't use the "archers can't attack on the enemy phase" or even just the "can't counter attack" line anymore... we get it, ok? That's why we're smart about how we use our archers.

Just stop saying they are the worst class and that they suck period... they were put in FE for a goddamn reason, ya know

Edited September 20, 2008 by CGV

[Nintenlord]

Please don't use the "archers can't attack on the enemy phase" or even just the "can't counter attack" line anymore... we get it, ok? That's why we're smart about how we use our archers.

Just stop saying they are the worst class and that they suck period... they were put in FE for a goddamn reason, ya know

You make it sound like a religious or philosophical issue. The fact that you repeat the same mantra isn't helping, either.

And to actually be on topic... *reads topic title* Erm... Anyway, if character needs you to be smart in order for it to be usable, it makes character worse, since easy to use characters require less effort and give you more tactical flexibility. Example:

-You need to set up a kill for Rolf. However, your Ike is underleveled, too, so you have to deside which one to give kills. If you give it to Rolf, you risk that your ONLY mandatory character being bad, but if you give it Ike, you make using Rolf even harder than it was before. If you didn't use Rolf, you wouldn't have this problem. And don't say anything about "it's your own fault for Ike being underleveled" because we all are humans and humans make mistakes such as not leveling lords or letting a backliner get attacked. Without Rolf, you would have less backliners so keeping them safe is easier and you would have less people to feed kills to.

That is the basis of tier lists: High tier characters make the game easier, while Low tier characters make the game harder. And last, don't say any BS about "Fire Emblem is a strategy game, so it's supposed to be hard" either, because that has nothing to do with weather character makes game harder or easier. Unless you want to place all sucky units to top of the tier list or something *Bastion to God tier*.

[Florete]

You make it sound like a religious or philosophical issue. The fact that you repeat the same mantra isn't helping, either.

And to actually be on topic... *reads topic title* Erm... Anyway, if character needs you to be smart in order for it to be usable, it makes character worse, since easy to use characters require less effort and give you more tactical flexibility. Example:

-You need to set up a kill for Rolf. However, your Ike is underleveled, too, so you have to deside which one to give kills. If you give it to Rolf, you risk that your ONLY mandatory character being bad, but if you give it Ike, you make using Rolf even harder than it was before. If you didn't use Rolf, you wouldn't have this problem. And don't say anything about "it's your own fault for Ike being underleveled" because we all are humans and humans make mistakes such as not leveling lords or letting a backliner get attacked. Without Rolf, you would have less backliners so keeping them safe is easier and you would have less people to feed kills to.

That is the basis of tier lists: High tier characters make the game easier, while Low tier characters make the game harder. And last, don't say any BS about "Fire Emblem is a strategy game, so it's supposed to be hard" either, because that has nothing to do with weather character makes game harder or easier. Unless you want to place all sucky units to top of the tier list or something *Bastion to God tier*.

It's your own fault for Ike being underleveled!

Fire Emblem is a strategy game, so it's supposed to be hard!

Lol, kiddin'. Though, that's more likely to happen with Mia or Ilyana than with Ike...

I know what you mean on tier lists, but I prefer to look at it like this: Low tier characters make the game harder when you get them. They generally make things easier if you go that extra mile, which, with my habits, is normal for me. I favor underleveled and underrated units, which is where a lot of this controversy comes from. As long as you aren't saying low tier characters are downright bad as a result of being low tier, I don't care.

[CGV]

Why can't I sleep!!!

I'm just backing up my point with facts. It's called debating ;)

Mia shouldn't be used

Good job using those facts there...

1. Swordmasters are much better than snipers, but the only valuable swordmaster in this game is Zihark with his Earth affinity. Lucia is the second worst unit in the game, Mia downright sucks and Stefan is only really useful for a couple of chapters and has no supports. 2. And guess what, the same applies to Rolf. He sucks and there's nothing you can do about it

1. Again, where's the facts? You're just saying certain units suck or where they are useful... last I checked, saying a unit sucks isn't a rule for debating

2. Funny you should say because there's a lot of things that I've done about it

1. Rolf fails, get over it

2. Jill

The third best character in the game

3. Rolf

Mist prefers all the above characters as support partners over Rolf, simply because they're better and easier to keep up with after promotion. 4. Then there's also the fact that Rolf is the worst character in the game, and Titania, Boyd, Mordecai and Jill are all God Tier or High Tier and are therefore going to be played. No Mist support for Rolf

5. Seriously, with the statistics I have given you I have proven that he can't be raised efficiently, so unless you can counter that, we agree that Rolf indeed can't be raised efficiently. You can't counter raw facts with personal experience

1. Characters that fail don't get into the top 5. You agree, right? A unit that fails simply wont make it into the top 5 because they don't earn it and because in order to get there you need to kill enemies. It has nothng to do with PE, either

2. Again... you lack the facts that you say we need to back up our thoughts. You're just stating a thought like it's true

3. SINCE WHEN THE FUCK DID MIST HAVE A MIND OF HER OWN!!! Seriously! You can't argue with me on this one. You literally said that Mist herself doesn't want to support Rolf. Case closed...

4. I'm getting to that one

5. Numbers on a page aren't everyhing ya know. If someone has a theory and then a hypothesis, you can't just base everything on the numbers, you have to test your hypothesis, not rely solely on numbers

1. I've proven why Rolf fails multiple times

2. And again, we're not playing the game, we're debating. Just see the damn difference between the two things.

4. and 1. Like I said before, numbers on a page aren't everything. Testing out your theory is the most important part so you get results from what you your hypothesis was

2. So, seriously... we're just debating about the numbers not the gameplay? (Yes, I see the difference)

Here's the scenario that's going on in my head: (These are just my thoughts, don't flame me for this)

You say Rolf sucks. I ask why. You show me the statistics and averages and whatnot. I say well that's good and all, but it doesn't say how he'll do in the next 20 chapters. Will his stats fail him or will they surprise me if I raise him and actually turn out better than i expected? You'll... A:Throw out the numbers and averages again and try to compute how he'll suck, but you never actually used him, so the numbers wont mean shit to me... B: Actually use him and then tell me he sucks. But wait, PEMN so how could you prove he sucks without using PE. Well the truth is, YOU CAN'T... C:(Which is what you've been doing)Counter with how bad he starts and how he does against the enemies ONLY on his first chapter (which is fucking retarted because not all units start out with the uber pwnage card. And you only seem to talk about the chapter he starts, not any of the others that follow) or the fact that he can't counter (which is also stupid because archers are built for non counters and are good with your own strategy of how to use them)... so besides his not-so-good starting stats and non-countering, what other things have said that make a legitimate argument about why you think archers aren't useful?

(the whole reason behind my debating here) I'm not saying "Use archers dammit!" If you don't want to use them, that's cool with me, it's your strategy. But stop flat out saying "archers suck" because of two lame reasons that can easily be dealt with

1. The fact that you repeat the same mantra isn't helping, either

Example:

-2You need to set up a kill for Rolf. However, your Ike is underleveled, too, so you have to deside which one to give kills. If you give it to Rolf, you risk that your ONLY mandatory character being bad, but if you give it Ike, you make using Rolf even harder than it was before. If you didn't use Rolf, you wouldn't have this problem. And don't say anything about "it's your own fault for Ike being underleveled" because we all are humans and humans make mistakes such as not leveling lords or letting a backliner get attacked. Without Rolf, you would have less backliners so keeping them safe is easier and you would have less people to feed kills to

1. tell that to Tino I haven't said it that much, have i? (If i really have repeated it too much, I'll stop)

2. You bring up some good points, but don't forget that even if you just weaken an enemy with Ike, he'll still gain some exp and Rolf will gain more for killing it and vice versa. And with a shitload of enemies throughout the game, getting exp from just weakening enemies will get you pretty damn far. Just throw in a few kills and you've got yourself a badass unit. But I do get where you're coming from

I'll try to go to sleep now... At least I got to kill some time :D

Edited September 20, 2008 by CGV

[Raven]

People who are for Rolf think about what Rolf is capable of becoming.

People who are against Rolf think about what Rolf is like when he joins.

Both sides of the argument will never come to an agreement due to different settings, so it's completely pointless.

"Here and now" group will obviously say he sucks, because he does, when he first joins, and for a couple of his levels later.

"Look to the future" group have my vote, since Rolf becomes one of the most useful units in the game.

There is no point in debating over a character if both sides are comparing the character under different conditions, it's impossible.

But, the capability of Rolf becoming an uber pwnage character certainly is much better than the fact he starts off shit. Only serious debators give a shit about starting levels, but the truth is, the majority, especially here at Serenes Forest, don't give a shit.

Edited September 20, 2008 by Raven

[Leonri]

Your arguements:

Rolf comes underleveled

Rolf is weak at level one

Rolf cannot counter

Rolf is not Titania

Rolf is low tier

1. What's wrong with a little babying? Bexp is there for a reason. Giving it in equal amounts to your team, is actually detrimental, as you're wasting it on characters like Titania, Ike,Oscar and Kieran who should never need any. Heck even Jill needs a little as she comes at level 7, when most of your characters are level 13. Babying is essential for low leveled characters, there's nothing

"wrong" with it.

2. No shit. A level one character, weak! Shock! Horror! Oh wait. Wasn't Ike the same? And Oscar and Boyd? And presumably Titania, years ago? Yes he's weak at level 1. So you level him up. When he gains a level he gets stronger. Do it many times, and he'll be very strong. Do you understand?

3. This is not as important as you think it is. Let me show you how my team is arranged.

In the front, ahead of everyone is my outriders, two paladins and a flying unit. They harry and weaken the attacking enemy. They need to counter as they get attacke a lot.

A couple of space back is my main infantry. A lord, a soldier,a myrmidon, a theif, a fighter, a knight and any other assorted foot units. They clear out the majority of the map. It is quite important that they counter as they bear the brunt of the enemy forces.

Behind them is the support units. A healer, a heron, a mage and an archer. They are protected by all the other lines, and almost never need to counter. They deal with speciality situations. When a unit is damaged, I send him back through the lines to safety and to be healed. The heron does his funky jazz and my mage deals with difficult units like armor knights and high defense bosses. My archer is sent in as heavy covering fire. He deals with dangerous melee enemys like Dragons, swordmasters with killer weapons and bosses. My archer can protect the flanks from flyers and provide extra fire power against tough units. These back lnes untis do not need to counter as they never get atacked.

All of these men in my army are essential and irrplaceble, and do a job no one else can, the archer no exception.

4. No Rolf is not Titania. Get over it.

5. Yes Rolf is low tier, but you made the tier! The guy who hates archers. Gee, do you think that tier list may be a tiny bit biased?

Please feel free add whatever other crazy arguements you have against Rolf, so I can deal with them.

[Tino]

There is no point in debating over a character if both sides are comparing the character under different conditions, it's impossible.

I have proven that Rolf sucks even at chapter 18, which is 1/3 of the game later, so no, we're not comparing them under different conditions.

I'll counter all the other stuff thrown against me later, for I have to go now.

[Leonri]

Your arguements:

Rolf comes underleveled

Rolf is weak at level one

Rolf cannot counter

Rolf is not Titania

Rolf is low tier

1. What's wrong with a little babying? Bexp is there for a reason. Giving it in equal amounts to your team, is actually detrimental, as you're wasting it on characters like Titania, Ike,Oscar and Kieran who should never need any. Heck even Jill needs a little as she comes at level 7, when most of your characters are level 13. Babying is essential for low leveled characters, there's nothing

"wrong" with it.

2. No shit. A level one character, weak! Shock! Horror! Oh wait. Wasn't Ike the same? And Oscar and Boyd? And presumably Titania, years ago? Yes he's weak at level 1. So you level him up. When he gains a level he gets stronger. Do it many times, and he'll be very strong. Do you understand?

3. This is not as important as you think it is. Let me show you how my team is arranged.

In the front, ahead of everyone is my outriders, two paladins and a flying unit. They harry and weaken the attacking enemy. They need to counter as they get attacke a lot.

A couple of space back is my main infantry. A lord, a soldier,a myrmidon, a theif, a fighter, a knight and any other assorted foot units. They clear out the majority of the map. It is quite important that they counter as they bear the brunt of the enemy forces.

Behind them is the support units. A healer, a heron, a mage and an archer. They are protected by all the other lines, and almost never need to counter. They deal with speciality situations. When a unit is damaged, I send him back through the lines to safety and to be healed. The heron does his funky jazz and my mage deals with difficult units like armor knights and high defense bosses. My archer is sent in as heavy covering fire. He deals with dangerous melee enemys like Dragons, swordmasters with killer weapons and bosses. My archer can protect the flanks from flyers and provide extra fire power against tough units. These back lnes untis do not need to counter as they never get atacked.

All of these men in my army are essential and irrplaceble, and do a job no one else can, the archer no exception.

4. No Rolf is not Titania. Get over it.

5. Yes Rolf is low tier, but you made the tier! The guy who hates archers. Gee, do you think that tier list may be a tiny bit biased?

Please feel free add whatever other crazy arguements you have against Rolf, so I can deal with them.

EDIT: Go Raven! Possibly the best pro-Rolf arguement yet.

[Raven]

I have proven that Rolf sucks even at chapter 18, which is 1/3 of the game later, so no, we're not comparing them under different conditions.

I'll counter all the other stuff thrown against me later, for I have to go now.

So you're saying you know what stats everyone's Rolf will have by Chapter 18? HIGHLY unlikely.

Yes, we are comparing them under different conditions. You have no ability to say how someone's Rolf will be looking by chapter 18. He's normally a Sniper by that point in the game for me, kicking ass. If he isn't then he just isn't being used right.

I too will counter all the stuff you throw at me. I'll be looking forward to it.

EDIT: Go Raven! Possibly the best pro-Rolf arguement yet.

Lol, thanks. Someone needs to stand up for the little man while they're being kicked down.

Edited September 20, 2008 by Raven

[Tino]

Okay. I may miss some, and some aren't as bad as others, but pretty much everyone here needs at least a few mooch kills:

Soren

Mia

Ilyana

Rolf

Marcia

Volke (in terms of fighting, at least)

Brom

Nephenee

Zihark (Meh, can't remember too well, I may be wrong on him)

Sothe

Jill

Astrid

Gatrie (depending on how high he is)

Makalov

Tormod

The rest are pre-promotes/laguz and Ike, Oscar, Boyd, Rhys, Mist, and Kieran. Two of them are only healers to start. If someone up there doesn't need any help, show me how.

Soren, Mia, Ilyana, Marcia, Brom, Nephenee, Jill, Astrid, Gatrie, Makalov and Tormod don't need mooch kills because they can either counter-attack most of the time or have Paragon for double EXP gain. Zihark doesn't need mooch kills and Volke and Sothe aren't supposed to fight anyway.

Agreed, like how I like Karla, but I don't think she's a good unit. The point is, if all that determines good characters is averages and tier lists, there's no individuality and no reason for debates what-so-ever.

Good characters are determined by statistics and such. Favorite characters are determined by the player him/herself.

Tino, I speak for everyone here in saying "WE GET THAT ARCHERS CAN FUCKING COUNTER ATTACK ON THE ENEMY PHASE!!!"

Please don't use the "archers can't attack on the enemy phase" or even just the "can't counter attack" line anymore... we get it, ok? That's why we're smart about how we use our archers.

Just stop saying they are the worst class and that they suck period... they were put in FE for a goddamn reason, ya know

You know why I said it so many times? Because I haven't seen a good counter against it. That's why.

They were in FE2 to be awesome, and in all the other games (aside of FE10, perhaps) to fail. That's pretty much it. They suck because of their class, and that's really too bad. But no matter what, Rolf would suck even if he wouldn't be an archer.

I know what you mean on tier lists, but I prefer to look at it like this: Low tier characters make the game harder when you get them. They generally make things easier if you go that extra mile, which, with my habits, is normal for me. I favor underleveled and underrated units, which is where a lot of this controversy comes from. As long as you aren't saying low tier characters are downright bad as a result of being low tier, I don't care.

I understand what you are saying, but in debates we pretty much consider the tier list, and a tier list will be changed when a character has been proven to be better than another character.

Low Tier characters don't have to be exceptionally bad, but not using them >>> using them, which is why they aren't played in debates.

1. Again, where's the facts? You're just saying certain units suck or where they are useful... last I checked, saying a unit sucks isn't a rule for debating

You really don't get how debating works, do you?

But of you really want to know.

Swordmasters use swords. Snipers use bows. Swords > bows. Why? Because swords actually can counter most attacks, whereas bows can't.

Zihark has really good supports which grant him a lot of Avoid because of his Earth affinity, he has good Attack and he joins pretty early. He also doesn't require any mooch kills, unlike some other characters *coughRolfcough*

Mia joins when she's three-rounded or worse by almost all enemies and when all the enemies have lances, against which she fails. Then she also has bad strength, which doesn't go well with the swords have low Might. She also doesn't have any great supports.

Stefan joins as about your second or third best character, but he has no supports, next to no Luck which means his Avoid and Hit (but especially his Avoid) will suffer as you progress through the game. Stefan can also be crit'd fairly easily by some enemies, which is epic fail.

Lucia joins very late with bad stats and has no supports. She fails.

2. Funny you should say because there's a lot of things that I've done about it

You know it, right? I hope this is the last time I have to say it.

PERSONAL EXPERIENCE MEANS NOTHING!!!

1. Characters that fail don't get into the top 5. You agree, right? A unit that fails simply wont make it into the top 5 because they don't earn it and because in order to get there you need to kill enemies. It has nothng to do with PE, either

This has everything to with personal experience. And making it to the top 5 of your game has nothing to do with debates at all.

2. Again... you lack the facts that you say we need to back up our thoughts. You're just stating a thought like it's true

The best weapon combination in the game, flier, awesome Mist support and great stats (just go look it up, there's no need for me to give you all the statistics for that).

Seriously! You can't argue with me on this one. You literally said that Mist herself doesn't want to support Rolf. Case closed...

I don't even get what you mean :/

5. Numbers on a page aren't everyhing ya know. If someone has a theory and then a hypothesis, you can't just base everything on the numbers, you have to test your hypothesis, not rely solely on numbers

Like Mitsuru said, this is a statistical RPG, so yes, you actually do rely on numbers and other facts, not personal experience and tests. That's also impossible because of the RNG. And no, Fixed mode also doesn't work because of weapons and bands altering the growths.

[Tino]

4. and 1. Like I said before, numbers on a page aren't everything. Testing out your theory is the most important part so you get results from what you your hypothesis was

This isn't biology or science or something. It's a statistical RPG with an RNG, making it impossible to test everything. That's why we use averages.

Here's the scenario that's going on in my head: (These are just my thoughts, don't flame me for this)

You say Rolf sucks. I ask why. You show me the statistics and averages and whatnot. I say well that's good and all, but it doesn't say how he'll do in the next 20 chapters. Will his stats fail him or will they surprise me if I raise him and actually turn out better than i expected? You'll... A:Throw out the numbers and averages again and try to compute how he'll suck, but you never actually used him, so the numbers wont mean shit to me... B: Actually use him and then tell me he sucks. But wait, PEMN so how could you prove he sucks without using PE. Well the truth is, YOU CAN'T... C:(Which is what you've been doing)Counter with how bad he starts and how he does against the enemies ONLY on his first chapter (which is fucking retarted because not all units start out with the uber pwnage card. And you only seem to talk about the chapter he starts, not any of the others that follow) or the fact that he can't counter (which is also stupid because archers are built for non counters and are good with your own strategy of how to use them)... so besides his not-so-good starting stats and non-countering, what other things have said that make a legitimate argument about why you think archers aren't useful?

For the bolded part, please read better. I show how he fares on chapter 9, his joining chapter, chapter 13 and chapter 18, so you're now simply making things up.

(the whole reason behind my debating here) I'm not saying "Use archers dammit!" If you don't want to use them, that's cool with me, it's your strategy. But stop flat out saying "archers suck" because of two lame reasons that can easily be dealt with

Point is that others don't have such problems. And even if they have problems, then they aren't so bad as the archer's problems. Here you have another way to say it. Archers have problems, other classes have not.

1. What's wrong with a little babying? Bexp is there for a reason. Giving it in equal amounts to your team, is actually detrimental, as you're wasting it on characters like Titania, Ike,Oscar and Kieran who should never need any. Heck even Jill needs a little as she comes at level 7, when most of your characters are level 13. Babying is essential for low leveled characters, there's nothing

"wrong" with it.

Babying is favoritism, and favoritism is not considered valid in debates. Giving BEXP in equal amount is also not favoritism, which it otherwise would be. Besides, if we wouldn't consider giving BEXP in equal amounts, then we would get debates about who gets the BEXP on what chapter, which would make it all impossible.

Okay, I shall admit, some babying is required for some characters, but not in such huge amounts as Rolf needs. All other characters that need a little babying (the characters that Fox mentioned) can actually counter or have Paragon or don't fight anyway and require only a small amount of babying, which would be fair as long as it isn't much. Rolf however, needs babying even at chapter 18, nine chapters after he joined. And that's really, really bad.

2. No shit. A level one character, weak! Shock! Horror! Oh wait. Wasn't Ike the same? And Oscar and Boyd? And presumably Titania, years ago? Yes he's weak at level 1. So you level him up. When he gains a level he gets stronger. Do it many times, and he'll be very strong. Do you understand?

And something else I have to say again...

IT'S NOT LEVEL THAT MATTERS, BUT PERFORMANCE, AND ROLF PERFORMS EPICLY BAD WHEN HE JOINS!!!

3. This is not as important as you think it is. Let me show you how my team is arranged.

In the front, ahead of everyone is my outriders, two paladins and a flying unit. They harry and weaken the attacking enemy. They need to counter as they get attacke a lot.

A couple of space back is my main infantry. A lord, a soldier,a myrmidon, a theif, a fighter, a knight and any other assorted foot units. They clear out the majority of the map. It is quite important that they counter as they bear the brunt of the enemy forces.

Behind them is the support units. A healer, a heron, a mage and an archer. They are protected by all the other lines, and almost never need to counter. They deal with speciality situations. When a unit is damaged, I send him back through the lines to safety and to be healed. The heron does his funky jazz and my mage deals with difficult units like armor knights and high defense bosses. My archer is sent in as heavy covering fire. He deals with dangerous melee enemys like Dragons, swordmasters with killer weapons and bosses. My archer can protect the flanks from flyers and provide extra fire power against tough units. These back lnes untis do not need to counter as they never get atacked.

All of these men in my army are essential and irrplaceble, and do a job no one else can, the archer no exception.

You don't get what I mean. They attack only 50% of the time (even less, by the way) so they also gain EXP only 50% of the time (so also even less), which means they level twice as slow which makes them fail epicly, especially if you start as a very bad character, which is Rolf's case. He starts bad, gains 50% of the EXP, levels very slowly and therefore has bad stats and can't kill and can't survive very well.

4. No Rolf is not Titania. Get over it.

I never said Rolf =/= Titania, but indeed, Rolf =/= Titania. You've seen that very well.

5. Yes Rolf is low tier, but you made the tier! The guy who hates archers. Gee, do you think that tier list may be a tiny bit biased?

A couple of things here.

1. I didn't make the tier list.

2. I don't have archers. In fact, I like using them. Problem is, there's a difference between "being good" and "being liked", if you know what I mean.

So you're saying you know what stats everyone's Rolf will have by Chapter 18? HIGHLY unlikely.

We go by average stats in debates, so yes, I know what stats Rolf will have by every chapter.

Yes, we are comparing them under different conditions. You have no ability to say how someone's Rolf will be looking by chapter 18. He's normally a Sniper by that point in the game for me, kicking ass. If he isn't then he just isn't being used right.

inb4PEMN!!!!!

Sorry >_>

But seriously, personal experience means nothing, zero, null.

Don't come with the "isn't being used right" argument again. We go by statistics and other facts, not by playing styles, because every person has his/her own playing style.

[Swordsalmon]

God dammit, stop calling him Rofl, it's so fucking annoying and completely irrelevant. You can't say these people "don't want" someone to support, because these supports are there and you can go whichever way you want to, so supporting Mist with Rolf is completely rational. Plus, Mist's primary use is to heal, not to fight, and she does a good enough job at it that supporting Rolf won't hurt her at all. And you don't have to "spend time creating a formation and weakening enemies for Rolf to kill." It's easy to raise him up, try it some time. Feed him some kills, some BEXP, you do it with Tormod, don't you? "Babying" a unit like Rolf isn't hard in the least, and if that's your only argument, I'm done here, because that's just stupid. He comes early enough to be raised efficiently. And you don't even have to use BEXP, though why wouldn't you if you're getting the max amount and he takes hardly any until he's amazing?

You haven't proven a damned thing, only spouted joining conditions at me. Overall performance is what really matters, and Rolf is great just a few chapters after you get him until the end of the game.

I pretty much stated that in shorter context.

Ha, I call it Rofl as an insult, because he's so laughably terrible. If it makes you feel better, I call that horrible thing Rofl IRL. XD

Not at all. Mist does heal, but she heals better with other supports because she can front-line. Let's look at Mist's other options.

Jill; She's desperate for Mist support. A great character hindered by supports, and Mist gives full Defense. A support.

Mordecai; WaterxWater is arguably the best bonuses in the game. Mist is best off with Mordecai B.

Boyd; Slow, but potential for the full Attack.

Titania; Could get a C support with Mist, and they like the Defense.

Rofl; Aweful bonuses. Supporting Rofl and Mist hurts her greatly.

So hurting a good character to make trash still suck is good? :o

The difference between Tormod and Rofl is the level of babying. Tormod is underleveled, but has Fire Magic and Devdan support. He catches up quickly with minimum babying. Rofl is the total opposite. Also, there's alot of competition for BEXP, and giving more than the usual amount is total babying.

Mordecai has much higher move than an unpromoted Mist and is not likely to be near her at all. Same with Jill. And the bolded part: Don't even go to the fact/tier list thing. Your opinion isn't fact. No one's is.

Just because someone is high tier doesn't mean they will be played, so how can you just assume everyone is using them? I agree those are all good characters, but you don't have to use them. You could just not use them and be fine. The only one you should assume everyone is using is Ike, as you actually have to. Like my current run: With the team I planned, it was only Ike until I got Marcia and Mist. Now, don't go all PEMN ape-shit on my ass, it's just an example. For the record, Jill and Mordy aren't planned for this run either.

I don't know where you're finding all these exact enemy stats, but I can assure you Tormod isn't killing a damn thing when you get him without favoritism, except maybe a few soldiers. If you only ever used the characters that never needed a single mooch kill, you'd have a small team, and you'd possibly get raped come endgame as a result of using too many pre-promotes.

I can't counter facts with personal experience, you're right. Was I doing that? I don't recall doing that. Also, every allied unit won't be given an exact fair share of kills, that's a bad idea in general, so I don't care what level you're placing him at.

You haven't proven a thing to me, once again. I know you think I'm just an idiot with a thick skull at this point, but you showing me enemy stats and a low leveled Rolf won't convince me he's bad, I've seen him be good too many times. Yeah, PEMN, whatever, but are you going to call a unit that you've seen be awesome every time you used him bad because someone said he's bad? I don't think so.

They're unlikely to use their total Movement a turn, so that's a nonfactor. Being in support range and keeping a couple spaces away>not.

Using a High Tier>Not using a High Tier. To beat the game most efficiently, you want to use all Top Tiers and High Tiers. If you are weakening your team by removing good characters to force Mist into supporting Rofl, just shows how awful he is. ^_^

Of course allied units won't be getting a fair share of CEXP. Everyone but Rofl is getting more due to attacking attacking well. ;)

I don't think he's bad. I know Rofl is bad. Look at Tino's calculations again, and would you like me to apply them with every other character at those points?

Okay. I may miss some, and some aren't as bad as others, but pretty much everyone here needs at least a few mooch kills:

Soren

Mia

Ilyana

Rolf

Marcia

Volke (in terms of fighting, at least)

Brom

Nephenee

Zihark (Meh, can't remember too well, I may be wrong on him)

Sothe

Jill

Astrid

Gatrie (depending on how high he is)

Makalov

Tormod

The rest are pre-promotes/laguz and Ike, Oscar, Boyd, Rhys, Mist, and Kieran. Two of them are only healers to start. If someone up there doesn't need any help, show me how.

Agreed, like how I like Karla, but I don't think she's a good unit. The point is, if all that determines good characters is averages and tier lists, there's no individuality and no reason for debates what-so-ever.

Soren isn't good, and won't be used anyways.

Mia's the same, but she at least develops at Chapter 9 due to owning all the Bandits. Also Rhys support.

Rofl is epic phail.

Marcia kills Mages and grows very quickly.

Volke is a Theif, and is basically useless without stuff to Steal. :o

Brom starts pretty dang good, and doesn't need babying.

Nephenee is two-rounding Loldiers and proves a bit useful within a level or two.

Sothe is with Volke.

Jill is incredible after one level or so, minimum babying.

Astrid has Elite. Leveling her isn't a problem.

Gatrie isn't good.

Makalov starts good; two-rounding many things and then becoming epic within a few levels.

Tormod has Celerity, Devdan support, and Magic.

If you think a character is good, then prove it with factual evidence, not personal experience. That's how Tino and I discovered how good Devdan is. ^_^

[Florete]

You know why I said it so many times? Because I haven't seen a good counter against it. That's why.

If you don't think you have, you haven't been reading.

You know it, right? I hope this is the last time I have to say it.

PERSONAL EXPERIENCE MEANS NOTHING!!!

Actually, you pretty much asked for that one, Tino. You said he couldn't do anything about it. He did. It means nothing to you, but he did.

Point is that others don't have such problems. And even if they have problems, then they aren't so bad as the archer's problems. Here you have another way to say it. Archers have problems, other classes have not.

Almost every class has some problem.

Magic users - durability.

Mounted - horseslayers, etc.

Armored - armorslayers, etc.

And other classes have a history of problem stats. Archers don't generally have problem stats except defenses, which is fixed by good speed and *gasp* shouldn't be worried about since they aren't front-lining.

All other characters that need a little babying (the characters that Fox mentioned) can actually counter or have Paragon or don't fight anyway and require only a small amount of babying, which would be fair as long as it isn't much.

If they're being babied, they likely aren't being attacked, so countering doesn't matter much for that time. I'm really surprised you guys seem to think Astrid is good. I mean, I think she's amazing, but I wouldn't expect you to. Seems hypocritical to tell the truth....

You don't get what I mean. They attack only 50% of the time (even less, by the way) so they also gain EXP only 50% of the time (so also even less), which means they level twice as slow which makes them fail epicly, especially if you start as a very bad character, which is Rolf's case. He starts bad, gains 50% of the EXP, levels very slowly and therefore has bad stats and can't kill and can't survive very well.

I've proven that wrong. Next.

Ha, I call it Rofl as an insult, because he's so laughably terrible. If it makes you feel better, I call that horrible thing Rofl IRL. XD

Even Tino is annoyed by it. Please just stop.

So hurting a good character to make trash still suck is good?

If that character is truly good, they won't be hurt at all. If a support is all that makes a unit, how are they really good at all?

They're unlikely to use their total Movement a turn, so that's a nonfactor. Being in support range and keeping a couple spaces away>not.

Unlikely to move full amount in a turn, correct. Now, I remember you saying archers hinder your progress. But, if the above statement is true, it won't make a difference.

Using a High Tier>Not using a High Tier. To beat the game most efficiently, you want to use all Top Tiers and High Tiers. If you are weakening your team by removing good characters to force Mist into supporting Rolf, just shows how awful he is.

That's not necessarily true. A high tier can help, but that doesn't mean it's who you will always be wanting to use.

AS AN EXAMPLE: (Meaning, don't just spout PEMN)

On my current run, my team is planned so that I only used Ike until I got Marcia and Mist. I never used anyone except Ike and Titania and Rhys for healing, and still always got max BEXP (with the exception of chapter 8, because I deployed Titania). No Oscar, no Boyd, no Shinon, no Gatrie, no problem.

[CGV]

You want facts. Here's the facts

Rolf's bases:

HP: 18

Str: 5

Skl: 8

Spd: 6

Lck: 4

Def: 6

Res: 2

Growth Rate:

HP: 60

Str: 40

Skl: 45

Spd: 50

Lck: 40

Def: 30

Res: 25

Upon promotion:

HP: +3

Str: +3

Skl: +2

Spd: +2

Def: +2

Res: +2

Assuming Rolf is raised to 20/20 his average end stats will be:

HP: 44-45

Str: 23-24

Skl: 27-28

Spd: 27-28

Lck: 19-20

Def: 19-20

Res: 13-14

Titania's bases:

HP: 33

Str: 12

Skl: 13

Spd: 14

Lck: 11

Def: 11

Res: 7

Growth rates:

HP: 80

Str: 45

Skl: 60

Spd: 50

Lck: 45

Def: 40

Res: 45

Assuming Titania is raised to lvl 20, average end stats will be:

HP: 48-49

Str: 20-21

Skl: 24-25

Spd: 23-24

Lck: 20-21

Def: 18-19

Res: 16-17

So in comparison for average end stats

Rolf:

HP: 44-45

Str: 23-24

Skl: 27-28

Spd: 27-28

Lck: 19-20

Def: 19-20

Res: 13-14

Titania:

HP: 48-49

Str: 20-21

Skl: 24-25

Spd: 23-24

Lck: 20-21

Def: 18-19

Res: 16-17

So Titania wins in HP, luck and resistance while Rolf will generally have more strength, skill, speed and defense

Like I said, these are just the facts here, the numbers on the page... I'm not debating anything with this post

Edited September 20, 2008 by CGV

[Raven]

We go by average stats in debates, so yes, I know what stats Rolf will have by every chapter.

LOL

That... That is the biggest pile of steaming horse manure I have heard... Ever. LOL. Amazing. You make me laugh, seriously.

[CGV]

LOL

That... That is the biggest pile of steaming horse manure I have heard... Ever. LOL. Amazing. You make me laugh, seriously.

I am with Raven on this one, how the hell can you possibly know what Rolf will be at every chapter?

Edited September 20, 2008 by CGV

[Tino]

Actually, you pretty much asked for that one, Tino. You said he couldn't do anything about it. He did. It means nothing to you, but he did.

I obviously meant that he couldn't do anything about the fact that he sucks when debating him. It doesn't matter how many times CGV has gotten him to be awesome.

Almost every class has some problem.

Magic users - durability.

Mounted - horseslayers, etc.

Armored - armorslayers, etc.

And other classes have a history of problem stats. Archers don't generally have problem stats except defenses, which is fixed by good speed and *gasp* shouldn't be worried about since they aren't front-lining.

Magic users: 1-2 range and supports help (especially in Ilyana's case). Besides, it's completely character dependent, not class dependent.

Mounted: Horseslayers are pretty much non-existent and don't pose a threat at all even when they show up.

Armored: Same story as for mounted.

But hey, let me go over all the class, okay? And note that stats don't mean anything, for they're completely character dependent, not class dependent.

Note: Didn't include Lord, Princess Crimeo and Laguz and the like.

Swordmaster: Mono-swords, which isn't too great, but also has that small Crit boost. Decent class.

Halberdier: Mono-lances, which are the second-best weapons in the game, plus an awesome mastery skill. Good class.

Warrior: Axes ftw, and bows are there just as an extra... thing. They're not going to be used anyway. Decent class. Nothing special.

Sniper: Mono-bows. Bows are the worst weapons in the game. Snipers can't do anything on the enemy phase (ranged units will attack direct combat units over snipers) and are unable to counter. The small Crit boost adds something to them, but it doesn't make a big difference. They also have a fail mastery skill.

General: Good weapon combination and a great mastery skill. They can also use the KW for pretty dang good speed. Good class.

Paladin: Generally a great weapon combination, massive movement and a great skill. Arguably the best class in the game.

Falcon Knight: Good weapon combination, flying utility, great movement, but a useless skill. Still a great class, though.

Wyvern Lord: Best weapon combination in the game, massive movement, flying utility, and, like the Falcon Knight a useless skill, but possibly the second best class in the game.

Sage: All types of magic, plus healing utility in most cases, plus a decent skill. A good class.

Bishop: Healing utility and access to magic you don't have to do anything for? Good class.

Valkyrie: Healing utility on a pony with great movemet. Massive win.

Assassin: Stealing and other thieving utility. Good class.

Berserker: Mono-axes and a small Crit boost. Decent class.

There. From this we can conclude that snipers are indeed the worst class.

If they're being babied, they likely aren't being attacked, so countering doesn't matter much for that time. I'm really surprised you guys seem to think Astrid is good. I mean, I think she's amazing, but I wouldn't expect you to. Seems hypocritical to tell the truth....

Astrid is indeed good. She might join underleveled and with just bows, like Rolf, but she has two great advantages. She's mounted, she gains axes upon promotion and she has Paragon for massive EXP gain. Oh snap, that's three >_> Even better.

I've proven that wrong. Next.

When?

Unlikely to move full amount in a turn, correct. Now, I remember you saying archers hinder your progress. But, if the above statement is true, it won't make a difference.

Supports have a three-space radius, so they can still receive support bonuses even if they're not next to eachother. That's what he meant.

I am with Raven on this one, how the hell can you possibly know what Rolf will be at every chapter?

I judge how he fares during chapters and then calculate how many EXP he will gain, which is pretty much nothing. He mainly levels by BEXP because he simply can't kill and can't survive.

CGV's long post with stats

So, there you have some base stats, growth rates, promotion bonuses and 20/20 stats, which Rolf will never reach. Nice. And now?

[Florete]

Sniper: Mono-bows. Bows are the worst weapons in the game. Snipers can't do anything on the enemy phase (ranged units will attack direct combat units over snipers) and are unable to counter. The small Crit boost adds something to them, but it doesn't make a big difference. They also have a fail mastery skill.

There. From this we can conclude that snipers are indeed the worst class

I've already shown that they can have action on the enemy phase when played right, stop using that, it's getting nowhere. Since only four occult scrolls exist, mastery skills aren't a big issue. Bows being the worst weapon type is entirely opinionated, no factual evidence there.

[Tino]

I've already shown that they can have action on the enemy phase when played right, stop using that, it's getting nowhere. Since only four occult scrolls exist, mastery skills aren't a big issue. Bows being the worst weapon type is entirely opinionated, no factual evidence there.

You've shown how they can have action while holding back the entire team, yes. And again, we're not playing the game right now, we're debating, and therefore "when played right" doesn't matter a thing. We're not playing it.

True. It was still worth it to mention them, though ;)

Let's see, how can I prove it...

I know.

Second-weakest weapon. No close-range option. Can't counter most of the other weapons, including magic. Has good Hit, but hit is not a big issue anyway, except for perhaps earlygame and against some SMs or something.

Hmm...

[Leonri]

I judge how he fares during chapters and then calculate how many EXP he will gain, which is pretty much nothing. He mainly levels by BEXP because he simply can't kill and can't survive.

So, there you have some base stats, growth rates, promotion bonuses and 20/20 stats, which Rolf will never reach. Nice. And now?

Ooh, ooh I know this one! PEMN! That felt good.... Just because you found it hard to leve up Rolf, doesen't mean squat for us. It is entirely possible to max Rolf, as it is for many characters. Not using Jeigans is the key.

In my opinion, stats are the most important aspect in a character. Supports, move, weapon type and skills, though useful, are all secondary to stats. They are the driving force behind everything. And there's no denying the fact that Rolf has very good stats. All the other arguements don't make that much of a difference with this in mind.

[Tino]

Ooh, ooh I know this one! PEMN! That felt good.... Just because you found it hard to leve up Rolf, doesen't mean squat for us. It is entirely possible to max Rolf, as it is for many characters. Not using Jeigans is the key.

I never said I judged how he fares on my playthroughs, mind you. I take the enemy stats from a reliable source (I'm not going to tell you guys where I get them) and then see how Rolf fares against them with his stats at that point. And from that I could conclude that he fails epicly.

In my opinion, stats are the most important aspect in a character. Supports, move, weapon type and skills, though useful, are all secondary to stats. They are the driving force behind everything. And there's no denying the fact that Rolf has very good stats. All the other arguements don't make that much of a difference with this in mind.

Have you even bothered looking at the stats I have provided? There I proved that he fails against enemies, which is all that matters. He fails epicly. Point. Fact.