The grimleal don't make sense.

[MCProductions]

well OP lets be real, nothing makes sense in awakening and nothing is explained in full detail.

we gotta keep things simple for the new brand of sheep waifu fans that'll keep the glorious series alive and therefore we can say no wrong about it!

with that said, anyone that it does bring into the series that also checks out the other games is super cool in my book, its not an overall bad game, but i definitely hate it.

Confession time awakening was my first FE

However after killing wallet to play the rest of the us FE's, I rank Awakening at 3rd best in the series. 7 and POR are both better games but awakening is a step up from RD and SD in my opinion.

Edit:And I keep forgetting that SS exists so its below Awakening too

Edited March 18, 2015 by randomsonicvideos123

[Saladus]

Cults are usually full of wackos who want to see the world burn.

Real life equivalent? Satanists

A faulty example. Satanists by large aren't out to destroy humanity.

I only read the first entry of this thread, so forgive me if it's been mentioned already, but:

I don't understand how it's difficult to understand the grimleal. They're just another group of fanatics who follow their religion.

People all around the world blow themselves up in the name of religion on a daily basis, watch the news. There isn't much of a difference.

Your post is simplistic. Suicide terrorists are a minority among organizations such as Al Qaeda, let alone practitioners of Islam. Studies have pointed to assorted suicide terrorists being like other suicidal people: Having a fear of professional failure, past a failed marriage, etc.

The Grimleal are poorly written. They are an attempt to imitate the Loptyrians, absent of anything that let them work.

Edited March 18, 2015 by Saladus

[Xyr]

The Grimleal never made any sense, and the game never attempted to give them a reason for following a dragon bent on destruction who will turn them into zombies at best or just plain kill them at worst. There is no logic behind it. I just understand it to be an excuse for me to send out all these characters to fight them and don't give it any more thought. It suits me just fine. Story is not Awakening's strong point, and it's not why I bought into the series or a reason to recommend it to others. But Awakening is my first FE game, and I liked quite a bit.

Also, I haven't played any of the DLC so I don't know if there is any substance is added to the story later.

Edited March 18, 2015 by Xyr

[Carmine Sword]

It's almost as if the plot of Awakening is bad or something.

Wait a minute...

Edited March 18, 2015 by Carmine Sword

[Saladus]

Well yes, Awakening's writing isn't good.

[Moishe Oofnik]

Awakening Never tells you everything of anything because the story sucks.

I miss kaga

[eclipse]

ITT: Whining.

So, if you guys want to expound on the Grimleal and how it makes no sense, go for it. If you want to whine about Awakening in general, do so in a thread that's dedicated to it, like this one.

IMO, the Grimleal look like they're there to screw with things because why the fuck not (on a serious note, "delusions of grandeur" come to mind), and I am perfectly fine with this. I wasn't expecting a story on par with the Iliad when I got the game.

[Delphi Sage]

Well yes, Awakening's writing isn't good.

It's almost as if the plot of Awakening is bad or something.

Wait a minute...

Awakening Never tells you everything of anything because the story sucks.

I miss kaga

There's the thing: Fire Emblem, at least to me, is about its story. Its gameplay really isn't anything special. Simplistic, easy to pick up on, and the only way it makes itself difficult is by going to extremes. Which is what FE13 did; cover up its flimsy plot by effectively destroying the line between what's a challenge and what's just outright disdain for the player's motivation. At least when FE10-12 was at its worst, it gave the player the option to use in-level saves. Here, it forces you to reset, reset, reset until you come out with an impossible outcome. And don't get me started on how they paywall training your ingame army. At this point, I'd almost prefer FE14 to become a visual novel than sit through a bunch of impossible odds staggered out by crappy justifications.

And actually, there were a few ways to make FE13 better in both story AND gameplay. The whole thing more or less nosedives in both by Chapter 13, where the levels just boil down to swarms of super-enemies with equal stats and no diversity all attacking you at the same time. Personally, I'd limit those kinds of actions to a very finite minimum. Not even the Spotpass or monster battles should have to abide by that garbage, and especially not the damn Gaiden Level 23.

As a general description, here's my idea for the events after that point:

[spoiler=Autism]

Do the Valm arc anyways. Retool Chapter 13 so that Chrom and MU don't recognize Validar. Make him way less suspicious and have him donate troops, with Henry as their commander. Get rid of the "Validar is MU's father" cutscene. Heck, get rid of the Premonition, too.

Keep the ship-burning, but use it as a point where Chrom starts to get uncomfortable about why MU would use such destructive tactics. Make efforts to do something creative with the MU besides an outlet for the player's fetishes.

Change Say'ri's method of recruitment. Instead of having her boxed in by a pair of knights, give her a method of appearance where she's outed by the civilians at the harbor for fear of their lives, then make her a neutral unit with high all-around stats and an Armorslayer, capable of single-handedly taking down the first few enemy units surrounding her. If the game says she's Echidna crossed with Karla, they should MAKE HER Echidna crossed with Karla.

Turn Yen'fay into something similar to Astram, where he actively pursues the party in cutscenes and maybe gets a cinematic all to himself where he beats one of the unkillable units in a fight.

Make the gems for the Fire Emblem/Binding Shield actually have powers. Use them as excuses for giving bosses high stats and/or Lunatic+ skills.

Make Pheros a bigger deal. Have her being enamored with Walhart comes off as her losing all hope for humanity. Don't turn her outright into Selena or Petrine. Maybe give her Cordelia's backstory so that we can actually see some goddamn consequences of Ylisstol being attacked by Gangrel.

Make Excellus into a full-blown boss in that chapter, creating a twist that Walhart actually fled the castle after getting beat in Chapter 19. Then after the chapter's over, make a revelation that the Empire sent a covert strike force with him while Chrom was busy, having them successfully take over Plegia. Basically, turn it into Chapter 21 from FE9.

Exploit the map system for all it's worth. Make enemies an actual solid roadblock and re-add the retreat option from FE8. Make some enemy encounters mandatory and turn them human to represent Valm-occupied territory. Make the paralogues mandatory chapters as an extension of this idea, and turn the bandits and mercenaries into Grimleal and Valm soldiers more often.

Create a scene in Plegia Castle where Walhart and Validar battle each other and Walhart wins, assumedly killing Validar. Make a level where you fight Valm soldiers to retake the castle. Turn Walhart into the boss of that map with higher stats and more/better skills than in Chapter 19. Give him Dragonskin from the Darksphere/Sable gem. Then have Walhart reveal on his death that Validar plans to reawaken Grima and the Earth Dragons from the Dragon's Altar/Table, and end with Validar revealing that he only faked his death at Walhart's hands Chapter 23-style, and then make him destroy Plegia Castle with a beam of unholy judgement from the Dragon's Altar.

Make fixed encounters where Grimleal and Risen fight alongside each other against you. Make Aversa lead a legit squadron and a couple Earth Dragons against you in Chapter 22, while Validar commands the Dark Warlords and Earth Dragon reinforcements in Chapter 23. Make it that the completed Binding Shield can put a stop to the Altar and re-seal the Earth Dragons only if Validar is slain.

Have Chapter 24 happen in between Chapters 21 and 22. Turn Naga into Tiki, and combine the level with Paralogue 17, where Tiki has to be guarded so she can unseal the Falchion. Then at the end of the level you get both the Exalted Falchion and Tiki, similar to FE11 and the Alterspire.

Get rid of Chapter 25 and Origin Peak and make Chapter 23 lead directly into the Endgame.

[Moishe Oofnik]

There's the thing: Fire Emblem, at least to me, is about its story. Its gameplay really isn't anything special. Simplistic, easy to pick up on, and the only way it makes itself difficult is by going to extremes. Which is what FE13 did; cover up its flimsy plot by effectively destroying the line between what's a challenge and what's just outright disdain for the player's motivation. At least when FE10-12 was at its worst, it gave the player the option to use in-level saves. Here, it forces you to reset, reset, reset until you come out with an impossible outcome. And don't get me started on how they paywall training your ingame army. At this point, I'd almost prefer FE14 to become a visual novel than sit through a bunch of impossible odds staggered out by crappy justifications.

And actually, there were a few ways to make FE13 better in both story AND gameplay. The whole thing more or less nosedives in both by Chapter 13, where the levels just boil down to swarms of super-enemies with equal stats and no diversity all attacking you at the same time. Personally, I'd limit those kinds of actions to a very finite minimum. Not even the Spotpass or monster battles should have to abide by that garbage, and especially not the damn Gaiden Level 23.

As a general description, here's my idea for the events after that point:

[spoiler=Autism]

Do the Valm arc anyways. Retool Chapter 13 so that Chrom and MU don't recognize Validar. Make him way less suspicious and have him donate troops, with Henry as their commander. Get rid of the "Validar is MU's father" cutscene. Heck, get rid of the Premonition, too.

Keep the ship-burning, but use it as a point where Chrom starts to get uncomfortable about why MU would use such destructive tactics. Make efforts to do something creative with the MU besides an outlet for the player's fetishes.

Change Say'ri's method of recruitment. Instead of having her boxed in by a pair of knights, give her a method of appearance where she's outed by the civilians at the harbor for fear of their lives, then make her a neutral unit with high all-around stats and an Armorslayer, capable of single-handedly taking down the first few enemy units surrounding her. If the game says she's Echidna crossed with Karla, they should MAKE HER Echidna crossed with Karla.

Turn Yen'fay into something similar to Astram, where he actively pursues the party in cutscenes and maybe gets a cinematic all to himself where he beats one of the unkillable units in a fight.

Make the gems for the Fire Emblem/Binding Shield actually have powers. Use them as excuses for giving bosses high stats and/or Lunatic+ skills.

Make Pheros a bigger deal. Have her being enamored with Walhart comes off as her losing all hope for humanity. Don't turn her outright into Selena or Petrine. Maybe give her Cordelia's backstory so that we can actually see some goddamn consequences of Ylisstol being attacked by Gangrel.

Make Excellus into a full-blown boss in that chapter, creating a twist that Walhart actually fled the castle after getting beat in Chapter 19. Then after the chapter's over, make a revelation that the Empire sent a covert strike force with him while Chrom was busy, having them successfully take over Plegia. Basically, turn it into Chapter 21 from FE9.

Exploit the map system for all it's worth. Make enemies an actual solid roadblock and re-add the retreat option from FE8. Make some enemy encounters mandatory and turn them human to represent Valm-occupied territory. Make the paralogues mandatory chapters as an extension of this idea, and turn the bandits and mercenaries into Grimleal and Valm soldiers more often.

Create a scene in Plegia Castle where Walhart and Validar battle each other and Walhart wins, assumedly killing Validar. Make a level where you fight Valm soldiers to retake the castle. Turn Walhart into the boss of that map with higher stats and more/better skills than in Chapter 19. Give him Dragonskin from the Darksphere/Sable gem. Then have Walhart reveal on his death that Validar plans to reawaken Grima and the Earth Dragons from the Dragon's Altar/Table, and end with Validar revealing that he only faked his death at Walhart's hands Chapter 23-style, and then make him destroy Plegia Castle with a beam of unholy judgement from the Dragon's Altar.

Make fixed encounters where Grimleal and Risen fight alongside each other against you. Make Aversa lead a legit squadron and a couple Earth Dragons against you in Chapter 22, while Validar commands the Dark Warlords and Earth Dragon reinforcements in Chapter 23. Make it that the completed Binding Shield can put a stop to the Altar and re-seal the Earth Dragons only if Validar is slain.

Have Chapter 24 happen in between Chapters 21 and 22. Turn Naga into Tiki, and combine the level with Paralogue 17, where Tiki has to be guarded so she can unseal the Falchion. Then at the end of the level you get both the Exalted Falchion and Tiki, similar to FE11 and the Alterspire.

Get rid of Chapter 25 and Origin Peak and make Chapter 23 lead directly into the Endgame.

a-are you the crusader of justice as I totaly agree

even if I dont play FE for the story all the points you made are solid and to the point

[The Geek]

Grimleal is literally just a rehash of the Lopt Cult, so it inherits all of its flaws of not-making-sense-ness. They worship an evil dragon. Why? Who knows.

[FrostyFireMage]

There's also the chance that the Grimleal were fed false information about the religion (like how they will be 'reborn into a better world' if they give their lives or something) which isn't that different from real cults.

I doubt that they were going for that angle but head-canon fixes everything.

Edited March 18, 2015 by FrostyFireMage

[Saladus]

Grimleal is literally just a rehash of the Lopt Cult, so it inherits all of its flaws of not-making-sense-ness. They worship an evil dragon. Why? Who knows.

Except that:

A. It's never said Loptyr will wipe out humanity.

B. The Loptyrians are having a ball after Loptyr returns.

Edited March 18, 2015 by Saladus

[Delphi Sage]

Grimleal is literally just a rehash of the Lopt Cult, so it inherits all of its flaws of not-making-sense-ness. They worship an evil dragon. Why? Who knows.

1: They are the Loputo cult done without understanding how they worked.

2: They worshipped Loputousu because their ancestors used to rule the world under the Galles, but now they're forced to live in exile and prejudice in the middle of a desert. Their plans were to unwittingly continue a cycle of hatred by taking back Jugdral by force. The Grimleal worship Grima for no reason.

Edited March 18, 2015 by Delphi Sage

[Irysa]

Its gameplay really isn't anything special. Simplistic, easy to pick up on, and the only way it makes itself difficult is by going to extremes.

FE's basic gameplay being simplistic is exactly what makes it special though. As a SRPG series, FE has been notable for being far more concerned with the finer strategical details, such as of where you place units rather than RPG concerns of having optimal skill setups or whatever. Most SRPGs you've won as long as you've got the right loadouts on your characters, and admittedly FE13 did kind of move towards this (especially with Apo, which as far as I understand it is like 99% planning), and I'm overall iffy about that shift. But I digress, the simplicity and transparency of FE is actually what lets it be interesting at all to me, and "going to extremes" simply highlights this. There are basically a finite amount of places you can put units on the map on any given turn that work to your advantage and figuring them out is far more strategically stimulating than looking at spreadsheets all day.

That being said I broadly agree with your post and do consider narrative an important element of any FE game, but I do think that people somewhat overblow the issues with Awakening's main plot when it's at least servicable and has a couple of high points. I don't honestly feel the core plot is particularly worse than Radiant Dawn's or even Blazing Sword's in the grand scheme of things, and whilst people do criticise FE7 and FE10's plots, that's fallen to the wayside in the past years to sling shit at Awakening due to it being more recent. Now if we're talking about supports, that's a different issue entirely...

Edited March 18, 2015 by Irysa

[The Geek]

Except that:

A. It's never said Loptyr will wipe out humanity.

B. The Loptyrians are having a ball after Loptyr returns.

A. I never brought that up.

B. Why, though?

EDIT: Oh yeah, I forgot. FE4 has the opposite problem from Awakening in that it has WAY TOO MUCH world building. It also has the problem where the plot doesn't make much sense unless you read up on all the backstory.

Edited March 18, 2015 by The Geek

[Saladus]

A. My point stands. The Grimleal worship a dragon out blow up mankind. The Grimleal are humans.

B. Assorted Loptyrians seen in the Judgral games are descendants of Loptyr's servants. They are rewarded for their aid.

Edited March 18, 2015 by Saladus

[Baldrick]

FE4 has the opposite problem from Awakening in that it has WAY TOO MUCH world building. It also has the problem where the plot doesn't make much sense unless you read up on all the backstory.

The motive and method of the Lopt Sect is established early in the game. While the backstory provides extra detail (which is apparently a bad thing?) it's by no means necessary to understand the plot.

[MCProductions]

Okay, basically FE13 did to FE4 what Binding Blade did to FE1.

It dosen't even take much thought to realize it honestly, so heres a long list of plot simularities.

1. Country made up entirely of barbarians invades home country.

2. Main character counter invades said barbarian country.

3. It's found out that there's a cult of dark dragon worshippers behind the scenes

4. Main character falls in love in barbarian country.

5. Barbarian country is defeated by invaded country.

6. Timeskip

7. Main characters have children who become main characters

8. Country known for its cavlary invades your country

9. big somewhat pointless war is fought with this country

10. It's found out that the dark dragon worshippers are behind both conflicts

11. Dark Dragon Cult gains power in a major country

12. Said Dark Dragon is resurrected in a human vessel

13. Deadlords

14. Chrom literally looks like discount Sigurd

15. Judrali holy weapons, unlike the games other legendaries, are obtained in the main plot

16. Lucina is discount Seliph

17. Potential Incest among the second gen

18. Mid bosses carry legendary weapons

19. Betrayal be leader of eventual dark cultist country

20. Regna Ferox is discount Silesse

There's more but I don't want to be here all morning

[Delphi Sage]

A. My point stands. The Grimleal worship a dragon out blow up mankind. The Grimleal are humans.

B. Assorted Loptyrians seen in the Judgral games are descendants of Loptyr's servants. They are rewarded for their aid.

A: I did not argue with your disdain for the Grimleal; I argued with your disdain of the Loputo Cult.

B: Obviously. But what is your point here?

Regna Ferox is discount Silesse

Interesting, but what really confuses me is why they made it, too, a country full of bandits, basing their leadership off the two branches of Fighters from FE8.

[MCProductions]

Why Regna Ferox was made is so Silesse can have a equivilant.

Seriously, look at the unused content from Awakening and you will find an unused army named Feroxi Rebel.

Meaning Ferox, like Silesse, was meant to rebel at some point. The difference is that Silesse actually DID rebel.

[Czar_Yoshi]

Why Regna Ferox was made is so Chrom has somewhere to get big mighty troops to fight Plegia without Emmeryn having to have an army.

Country known for its cavlary invades your country

In FE4, your country was the aggressor who was looking for any reason to invade back and sized upon the transgression to mount a full invasion and takeover. In FE13 your country is just chilling and they come out of nowhere, and you strike back in the name of freedom and justice and whatnot. They're pretty different scenarios.

[MCProductions]

In FE4, your country was the aggressor who was looking for any reason to invade back and sized upon the transgression to mount a full invasion and takeover. In FE13 your country is just chilling and they come out of nowhere, and you strike back in the name of freedom and justice and whatnot. They're pretty different scenarios.

Actually, Grannvale struck back at Verdane in a counterstrike after Verdane invaded Grannvale. Grannvale wasn't an aggressor, Agustria overreacts and attempts to take Verdane, making them the aggressor there. Grannvale wasn't an aggressor until chapter 3, and even then Agustria holds some blame.

[Czar_Yoshi]

Grandbell was the aggressor for all of the Augustria chapters. They could have just sat happily on their borders, but went in and took over because a) Sigurd wanted to help Eltshan and b) Reptor wanted to take over.

[MCProductions]

Grandbell was the aggressor for all of the Augustria chapters. They could have just sat happily on their borders, but went in and took over because a) Sigurd wanted to help Eltshan and b) Reptor wanted to take over.

Okay, both of these points are true I concede that, but you're kinda forgetting that the reason Eldigan needed saving anyway was because Shagall had just ordered an invasion of Verdane. Eldigan was just captured due to him not agreeing with the invasion, and Nordion was then looted which is why Sigurd even gets involved.

[Respite&Nepenthe]

Not a well-written motive, really, but I suppose they would like to die as martyrs for the ideals of Grima. Cray-cray, but yeah. Cultists can seem that way often.