Unusual character gender ratio

[Thor Odinson]

It's probably less to do with code than it has to do with art assets. Less genders saves more time I guess.

Still, games like FFT include lots of male and female generic enemies so...

I wanted to say the transition to 3d could be one of the reasons that we're getting more gender-neutralizing of classes since changing M<-->F is easier in 3d than 2d given equal skill level in both, and that could be the case for many (Great Knight being one, for example, since the battle panties is more likely a texture thing than a model thing considering Sully's GK model actually wears pants) but in cases like merc or knight where the designs are actually quite different, it might not be the case.

Doing an alternate gendered version in GBA-style is a pain in the ass, though, yes. Less space in rom, too, another issue that no longer exists.

Edited May 3, 2015 by Thor Odinson

[Dark Sage]

The difficulty would likely come with characters in lighter armor, such as thieves or mages. With classes like great knights or generals, they could "cheat" and just have both genders share the same model (which would work for obvious reasons), but you can't really do that with other classes.

About the battle panties, there's an easy way to tell if it's a texture thing. Does it look like skin (i.e, shares the exact same amount of depth and material) only colored differently? If so, it's definitely just a lazily applied texture. Otherwise, it's an actual part of the mesh.

[Thor Odinson]

The difficulty would likely come with characters in lighter armor, such as thieves or mages. With classes like great knights or generals, they could "cheat" and just have both genders share the same model (which would work for obvious reasons), but you can't really do that with other classes.

About the battle panties, there's an easy way to tell if it's a texture thing. Does it look like skin (i.e, shares the exact same amount of depth and material) only colored differently? If so, it's definitely just a lazily applied texture. Otherwise, it's an actual part of the mesh.

Well I mean it's easier to just protrude/move vertices around than doing everything frame by frame, given a similar enough base design. You'd only have to edit one model (well, 3, for the different builds) vs anywhere between 20-60 frames. The rest is just applying the same animation to the rig.

It's a little hard to tell with the quality of FEA models since they're quite small. It might help if I had an XL though, but I don't. alas.

[szechuan]

Can we please remember that Awakening had that almost perfect gender ratio due to the existance of marriage system? It would be impossible to get all children with more women than men and it was necessary to have a lot of women so we could have a decent number of children. So if FEif has the marriage system is likely to have gender ratio equality too. But if not, even though I hope we have the same ratio as in Awakening, it's not likely.

(Sorry for my English, I'm Spanish)

Edited May 3, 2015 by misterarrowkey

[Dark Sage]

Well I mean it's easier to just protrude/move vertices around than doing everything frame by frame, given a similar enough base design. You'd only have to edit one model (well, 3, for the different builds) vs anywhere between 20-60 frames. The rest is just applying the same animation to the rig.

It's a little hard to tell with the quality of FEA models since they're quite small. It might help if I had an XL though, but I don't. alas.

That's a good point, though keep in mind that this assuming males and females wear pretty much the exact same outfits. Many designers like to give the female versions some noticeable design differences; for example, the female mage might wear a strapless dress (like a witch) and have long hair, while their male counterpart wears robes and has short hair. The changes can be drastic enough as to require numerous alterations on the rigs or things will look fucked up. Like in my mage example, the male mage will likely have bones in the rig to make sure his robes aren't stiff but since the female mage doesn't wear robes, you can't just reuse the rig or you'll get really weird visual glitches popping up (like her limbs stretching in horrifying ways).

Like, even characters with really similar models can get screwed up; for example in Brawl, moveswapping Mario and Luigi's moves still results in some bad glitches and they can't use each other's special moves properly, despite the fact that their models look really similar.

you can zoom in or out on Awakening animations using the l and r buttons. At least, you definitely can when the demonstration (when you click on a unit's portrait) plays.

[goodperson707]

On the other hand, males didn't get Pegasus Knight or Troubadour whereas females did. The females are actually better off in that regard since their exclusive classes are far superior to the male ones.

okay i find it a bit... off-putting that you take some of my examples of female inequality which i specifically said were subtle mainly on that females apparently being unable to use axe classes which are seen to the game as heavier and which classes have the highest strength scores, and say that the female classes are better in-game so it balances out, the attitude is still there, i also mentioned the gameboy str/speed difference which is pretty obviously mostly beneficial so yes I'm aware they have benefits but i still see a bit of casual sexism in the games regardless.

Edited May 3, 2015 by goodperson707

[Thor Odinson]

That's a good point, though keep in mind that this assuming males and females wear pretty much the exact same outfits. Many designers like to give the female versions some noticeable design differences; for example, the female mage might wear a strapless dress (like a witch) and have long hair, while their male counterpart wears robes and has short hair. The changes can be drastic enough as to require numerous alterations on the rigs or things will look fucked up. Like in my mage example, the male mage will likely have bones in the rig to make sure his robes aren't stiff but since the female mage doesn't wear robes, you can't just reuse the rig or you'll get really weird visual glitches popping up (like her limbs stretching in horrifying ways).

Like, even characters with really similar models can get screwed up; for example in Brawl, moveswapping Mario and Luigi's moves still results in some bad glitches and they can't use each other's special moves properly, despite the fact that their models look really similar.

you can zoom in or out on Awakening animations using the l and r buttons. At least, you definitely can when the demonstration (when you click on a unit's portrait) plays.

Well, yes, but I'm also for generics in the same class wearing similar outfits. I feel like if two generics in the same class they really should be visually similar to underline that it's indeed the same class and I'm honestly not a fan of when the outfits change too drastically enough to need different rigs.

Player characters should be unique but player characters should also get their own at least semi custom edited rigs anyway.

I guess I also have very different design philosophies from a lot of other designers or something.

Huh, never knew about the zoom. thanks!

Edited May 3, 2015 by Thor Odinson

[Vitezen]

okay i find it a bit... off-putting that you take some of my examples of female inequality which i specifically said were subtle mainly on that females apparently being unable to use axe classes which are seen to the game as heavier and which classes have the highest strength scores, and say that the female classes are better in-game so it balances out, the attitude is still there, i also mentioned the gameboy str/speed difference which is pretty obviously mostly beneficial so yes I'm aware they have benefits but i still see a bit of casual sexism in the games regardless.

Men and women are different, physically and psychologically. That isn't sexist, that's reality.

[Book of Ereshkigal]

Just like the dragons, magic, and pegasi. :B

[goodperson707]

Men and women are different, physically and psychologically. That isn't sexist, that's reality.

The problem with that is that is the differences are mainly on average, and your player characters are obviously not of average physiology, when skinny people in robes can take axes to the face nearly as well as full grown men with military training while wearing full plate armour,or the fact that mages can have more strength and defence than trained soldiers, the male/female differences in average strength IRL means nearly nothing. FE combatants might as well be separate species with difference physics compared to ours. Also as l95 said they have magic and magical creatures.

[Thor Odinson]

The difference between the average M/F is less significant than the difference between individuals, anyway, a lot of the perceived gaps seen in real life between the average person is that women are also less likely to be encouraged to engage in athletics from childhood, which attributes to physical capabilities.

I mean go up to an olympic female weightlifter and ask her to throw you into a wall, or go to an olympic female boxer and ask her to punch you in the face, and see if that hurts or not, go on

I wonder if people know how averages actually work

At any rate since women have access to General in FE, which, as far as FE:A is concerned has the same str cap as Berserker, women in the FE universe do have access to the highest strength cap and not letting women have access to berserker based on the high strength is even more absurd

In the same vein, it is also quite absurd to bar men from healing if they're sitting on a horse.

Edited May 3, 2015 by Thor Odinson

[Mayus]

What's the point of sex-locking any classes that aren't ''special'' (see Dancers) in a game with Reclassing (don't expect If to ditch Reclassing)?

[Rapier]

This implies very strongly, that you dont see representation of gender in the game(s) and/or balance between such as relevant.

Indeed, I don't. Why should I? I am not playing a game to see my race/class/gender/particular characteristic being represented. I play a game because it is fun. Regardless if it is Ike or Micaiah the lead of the game, I'll like it only if the characters are enjoyable and the gameplay is consistent and fun. Accidental characteristics (race, sex etc.) are of little importance to me.

Alternatively, tell me how adding more female characters to a videogame contributes to social proggess against sexism. You did nothing to uphold your argument, other than complain because someone thinks different from you.

I don't see any reason to identify with how many male or female characters are in the game. Much more important factors, such as quality of writing, should be given more weight.

Seconded. I have never seen a game getting good ratings because they have more women in the story or black characters as the lead, but because of their gameplay/graphics/story/sound/controls, which are actually the most relevant parts that a gamer wishes to appreciate. The rest is details.

Men and women are different, physically and psychologically. That isn't sexist, that's reality.

That said, appealing to reality in a fantasy game with far too many escapes from reality isn't a good argument. Creative breaks are accepted here (though, if we were going to be realistic, I'd doubt only that there could be a female berserker/brigand/pirate/knight. All the other classes seem ok for women to take, considering physical differences and all).

Edited May 4, 2015 by Rapier

[Thor Odinson]

That said, appealing to reality in a fantasy game with far too many escapes from reality isn't a good argument. Creative breaks are accepted here (though, if we were going to be realistic, I'd doubt only that there could be a female berserker/brigand/pirate/knight. All the other classes seem ok for women to take, considering physical differences and all).

Have you actually seen real women

Do you go outside

Do you know that women also participate in olympic lifting and there IS a superheavyweight division

also female knights exists since FE6

Maybe there's a lot less in numbers but there's still a significant number of women who are both much larger and stronger than your average fit dude

Edited May 4, 2015 by Thor Odinson

[Rapier]

Have you actually seen real women

Do you go outside

Do you know that women also participate in olympic lifting and there IS a superheavyweight division

also female knights exists since FE6

Maybe there's a lot less in numbers but there's still a significant number of women who are both much larger and stronger than your average fit dude

Yes, I know women, I have gone outside, and I know women compete in olympic games. Ok, maybe women can lift two axes at the same time (like pirates do), or lift an axe higher than their size as Berserkers do, or wear heavy armor and lift weapons at the same time, and still manage to fight without these small details hindering them, as you say (I don't watch olympic games). That said, it'd be realistic that very few women manage to accomplish this, that men are much more capable of these feats than women when their numbers compare.

By the way, you contradict yourself by saying 'there's a lot less in numbers' and 'significant number'. If there is only a very small sample of women that are larger and stronger than average men, then these numbers only exist to signify men are usually stronger and larger than women. You're scoring a point for me. Also,

Did you know that men and women don't compete together in olympic games

Do you know why

Edited May 4, 2015 by Rapier

[Dan]

Anyone watch Game of Thrones? Brienne of Tarth is pretty awesome; I'd like to see a character like that in Fire Emblem. I know there are already female knights and whatnot, but every female character in Fire Emblem is short and slender. I get that it's fantasy and there's dragons and pegasi and stuff but how about some more realistic-looking women? You need some strength to swing an axe or a sword, not to mention carrying that armor. I know Awakening was "waifu emblem," but come on. At least Flavia had a little bit of muscle in her art, but she's still short and fairly slender.

And please, correct me if I'm wrong. I would love to be mistaken. I haven't played all of the older fire emblems.

[Mayus]

Assorted axes designed for the battlefield aren't that heavy a trained women couldn't move swiftly with one. Neither are assorted plate armors.

[Thor Odinson]

Yes, I know women, I have gone outside, and I know women compete in olympic games. Ok, maybe women can lift two axes at the same time (like pirates do), or lift an axe higher than their size as Berserkers do, or wear heavy armor and lift weapons at the same time, and still manage to fight without these small details hindering them. That said, it'd be realistic that very few women manage to accomplish this, that men are more capable of these feats than women when their numbers compare.

By the way, you contradict yourself by saying 'there's a lot less in numbers' and 'significant number'. If there is only a very small sample of women that are larger and stronger than average men, then these numbers only exist to signify men are usually stronger and larger than women. You're scoring a point for me. Also,

Did you know that men and women don't compete together in olympic games

Do you know why

Do you know how averages work

just because just there's less doesn't mean the numbers are not significant

There's fucking 7 billion people in the world do you honestly think that even 1% isn't a significant number of people

slightly less on average doesn't mean they still can't pummel your shit in

Who cares if women are on average less strong when they can achieve the level of strength to take a huge axe and cleave your head in half

The point is it can be done

also the berserker class is inherently unrealistic because there's no way realistically any man can pin two tigers, so if men get to be unrealistically strong why not women

[thetiger39]

When I look up average stats, I expect Wyvern Camilla to have maxed STR (28) DEF (28) by Level 20/15 on average. Her average res should be 4 by level 20/20

[goodperson707]

Yes, I know women, I have gone outside, and I know women compete in olympic games. Ok, maybe women can lift two axes at the same time (like pirates do), or lift an axe higher than their size as Berserkers do, or wear heavy armor and lift weapons at the same time, and still manage to fight without these small details hindering them, as you say (I don't watch olympic games). That said, it'd be realistic that very few women manage to accomplish this, that men are much more capable of these feats than women when their numbers compare.

By the way, you contradict yourself by saying 'there's a lot less in numbers' and 'significant number'. If there is only a very small sample of women that are larger and stronger than average men, then these numbers only exist to signify men are usually stronger and larger than women. You're scoring a point for me. Also,

Did you know that men and women don't compete together in olympic games

Do you know why

Do you know that this is a video game and that most people can't not get hurt by being stabbed while wearing robes, and that untrained people IRL don't normally become better soldiers than people who have trained all their lives for 2 decades in at most around a tenth of that. Or as mentioned most people don't have magic at all Edited May 4, 2015 by goodperson707

[Mayus]

http://www.megapathdsl.net/~amichaels/girlsclubdocs/McLaughlin%20The%20Woman%20Warrior.pdf

For anybody looking for info on Medieval European in wars.

Edited May 4, 2015 by Mayus

[Thor Odinson]

and like seriously

let's say the force required to cleave someone's head in half with a huge axe is 300 Newtons

a woman generates 350 N and a man generates 375 N

yeah maybe the dude generates 25N more but it doesn't matter because both of them cleaves the guy's head in half

so what's the problem

[Rapier]

Do you know how averages work

How am I missing how averages work? Men are on average stronger than women. You yourself claimed there is only a small ('but significant') number of women who are exceptions. I'm using your statement against you.

just because just there's less doesn't mean the numbers are not significant

There's fucking 7 billion people in the world do you honestly think that even 1% isn't a significant number of people

Now I'm the one who asks if you know what averages is.

Supposing that there are only 1% of women who are stronger than men in general, this is just statistics. It just serves to prove further my point that men are overall stronger than women, save on very specific and rare cases. Even if it means there are 291291201920 women stronger than the average man, if their percentage lies around 5% of the total number of people, they're rare cases. We're dealing with statistics.

Who cares if women are on average less strong when they can achieve the level of strength to take a huge axe and cleave your head in half

The point is it can be done

Few women in a given population of women can do so, whereas a larger number of men can accomplish these feats in a given population of men. Only few women can do so. The point is that it should be very rare, if we're going to take it realistically.

--

Ok, we seem to be doing a whirlwind in a cup of water. Let me synthethise this:

- Your point that it is doable: I agree

- My point that few women can do it stands, followed by the conclusion that, if we're going to take it realistically, there should be much fewer women actually performing these physical feats.

Anything else?

Do you know that this is a video game and that most people can't not get hurt by being stabbed while wearing robes, and that untrained people IRL don't normally become better soldiers than people who have trained all their lives for 2 decades in at most around a tenth of that. Or as mentioned most people don't have magic at all

Which is why I said

if we were going to be realistic

My first point was that it is a fantasy game and that, as such, it allows breaks from reality.

Edited May 4, 2015 by Rapier

[Rapier]

EDIT: derp, accidental doublepost

Edited May 4, 2015 by Rapier

[Thor Odinson]

Ok, we seem to be doing a whirlwind in a cup of water. Let me synthethise this:

- Your point that it is doable: I agree

- My point that few women can do it stands, followed by the conclusion that, if we're going to take it realistically, there should be much fewer women actually performing these physical feats.

Anything else?

I agree it's likely to be a smaller sample BUT not

I'd doubt only that there could be a female berserker/brigand/pirate/knight. All the other classes seem ok for women to take, considering physical differences and all).

Implies that you think it's impossible. I do not hold issue with a smaller population for these particular classes, maybe there's 2-3 male zerks to one female zerk, I'm okay with that, but I hold issue with a blanket-all.

If you're gonna say shit, own up to them.