Matoi Optimization Thread

[astrophys]

I was originally working on this stuff on the Unit Optimization Thread, but some of the other users politely asked me if I could split this stuff off onto a separate thread because I was creating too much of a tangent with just too much focused on the optimization of a single character.

So this thread has been created to respect those wishes.

I will be honest. I was a huge fan of Cordelia back in Fire Emblem Awakening. (Out of 9 playthroughs, I married her 7 times. Of the times I didn't, one with with Miriel and one was one I played the female Robin for variety and had female Robin marry Chrom.)

So when I learned that a character who follows in the footsteps of Cordelia, Matoi, was in the game, like the other homage character to Gaius and Tharja (Grey and Shara), I naturally got excited… particularly as I had previously been having trouble choosing a wife for my Avatar for the Hoshido route and 3rd route.

Its going to be a long time until the NA version of the game comes out at some point in 2016, so I won't actually be able to put this into practice for months, but while I'm still hyped from the release of Fates several days ago and the resulting activity on this board, I thought I'd start thinking about this issue: the various parent options I have for Matoi, as well as assets/flaws and classes I should take for my Avatar to work well with Matoi (as well as my Avatar being good on his individual merits) and to yield a decent result for a Matoi!Kanna. Hopefully the pair could also do well for Matoi's parents, although making Matoi good is my higher priority.

While I admit that I have a bit of a preference for redheads (like Cordelia in Awakening), something that both Hinoka and Luna could provide, and I'm aware of Luna's special supports with Matoi, for the purposes of this thread, let's set those biases aside and try to figure out which options for Matoi are the best, which are good options (but not as good as the best ones), which are poor options, and which are the worst options.

Now, let's begin:

FIXED PROPERTIES OF MATOI: HER FATHER AND HER GROWTHS

Matoi's father is Subaki (Tsubaki in Japan). He has the Pegasus Warrior and Samurai class tree and passes both of them onto Matoi.

This guarantees her the ability to access the following classes and skills regardless of parentage, although she might not use or pick up all of them on any given playthrough.

Pegasus Warrior [starting]{Swallow Strike, Eastern Heart},

Falcon Warrior {Rally Speed, Mirror Strike},

Golden Kite Warrior{Soar, Sun God}

Samurai [inherited from her father]{Flowing Strike, Vantage},

Trueblade {Astra, Swordfaire},

Weapons Master {Strength Seal, Line of Death}

Subaki's maximum stat modifiers are: -1 Str, +0 Mag, +2 Skl, -2 Spd, -1 Lck, +3 Def, -1 Res

So he's slow for a Pegasus but as a high defense...

The child bonus means that Matoi gets the following before the effects of her mother:

+0 Str, +1 Mag, +3 Skl, -1 Spd, +0 Lck, +4 Def, +0 Res.

Additionally, assuming growths work like Awakening, Matoi inherits 1/3 of her personal growths, 1/3 of her father's growths, and 1/3 of her mother's growths.

Combining her growths and Subaki's growths and keeping her mother's as a variable, these are the formulas for the growths she'll have:

HP: (36.667 + Mother's Growths/3)

Str: (21.667 + Mother's Growths/3)

Mag: (11.667 + Mother's Growths/3)

Skl: (30 + Mother's Growths/3)

Spd: (20 + Mother's Growths/3)

Lck: (23.333 + Mother's Growths/3)

Def: (26.667 + Mother's Growths/3)

Res: (8.333 + Mother's Growths/3)

INHERITANCES:

Matoi has 13 possible mothers, if I'm informed correctly. If I've done my math right, they change her stats to the following and give her the following new classes. I will be assuming that I am not buying skills from other peoples MyCastle teams, so class inheritance, buddy seals, and marriage seals are the only ways she may gain new classes.

1. Felicia!Matoi: -2 Str, +3 Mag, +3 Skl, +0 Spd, +0 Lck, +3 Def, +1 Res; Rod Knight/Strategist/Maid

2. Azura!Matoi: +0 Str, +1 Mag, +4 Skl, +2 Spd, +0 Lck, +1 Def, +0 Res; ??? {does she get Rod Knight like Shigure?}

3. Mozume!Matoi: +0 Str, +1 Mag, +4 Skl, +0 Spd, +1 Lck, +4 Def, -2 Res; Villager/Great Merchant

4. Rinkah!Matoi: -1 Str, +1 Mag, +1 Skl, +0 Spd, +0 Lck, +6 Def, +0 Res; Oni Savage/Shura/Blacksmith

5. Sakura!Matoi: +0 Str, +3 Mag, +2 Skl, +0 Spd, +0 Lck, +3 Def, +0 Res; Priestess/War Priestess/Excorcist

6. Hana!Matoi: +1Str, +1 Mag, +4 Skl, +1 Spd, -1 Lck, +1 Def, +1 Res; Priestess/War Priestess/Excorcist

7. Orochi!Matoi +0 Str, +4 Mag, +5 Skl, -3 Spd, -1 Lck, +2 Def, +1 Res; Spellcaster/Excorcist/Basara

8 Hinoka!Matoi: +1 Str, +0 Mag, +2 Skl, +0 Spd, +0 Lck, +3 Def, +2 Res; Lance Fighter/Holy Lancer/Basara

9. Setsuna!Matoi: +0 Str, +1 Mag, +4 Skl, +2 Spd, -1 Lck, +3 Def, -1 Res; Bowman/Holy Bowman

10. Oboro!Matoi: +1 Str, +0 Mag, +4 Skl, +0 Spd, - 1 Lck, +5 Def, -1 Res; Lance Fighter/Holy Lancer/Basara

11. Kagerou!Matoi: +3 Str, +1 Mag, +2 Skl, -2 Spd, +0 Lck, +3 Def, +1 Res; Ninja/Elite Ninja/Puppeteer

12. Luna!Matoi (3rd route only): -1 Str, +1 Mag, +2 Skl, +1 Spd, +0 Lck, +5 Def, +0 Res; Mercenary/Hero/Bow Knight

13. Nyx!Matoi (3rd route only): +0 Str, +4 Mag, +1 Skl, +1 Spd, -1 Lck, +2 Def, +1 Res; Dark Mage/Dark Knight/Sorcerer

To get Matoi's expected growth rates, add 1/3 of the Mother's growth rates to the above listed values:

Numbers are growth rates listed in order: HP, Str, Mag, Skl, Spd, Lck, Def, Res

Felicia 40 10 35 30 40 55 15 35

Azura 25 50 25 60 60 40 15 35

Mozume 30 40 5 50 55 45 35 30

Rinkah 20 25 15 50 45 35 45 20

Sakura 45 30 50 40 40 55 30 20

Hana 25 55 10 45 55 25 20 30

Orochi 35 5 65 50 15 35 25 45

Hinoka 45 45 15 40 45 40 35 40

Setsuna 30 20 0 30 60 30 15 40

Oboro 30 40 20 40 40 40 40 30

Kagerou 30 65 0 20 50 30 25 40

Nyx 30 5 50 35 50 20 15 30

Luna 40 30 5 25 45 30 45 30

Of course, class growths also need to be accounted for, but that would take a bunch more work, so I'll just leave it like this for now.

Any thoughts?

Which parents do you think give the best Matoi? The worst? Good/mediocre ones? Poor ones?

Edited July 5, 2015 by astrophys

[SapphireFalconWing]

Hinokas probably the best mother unless Femui has related mods and class to pass down Matoi can get breaking sky is an absolute must for her especially with her personal skill prodigy makes up for her strength especially with a shock stick also with the wing shield skill, defense seal and eastern heart pegesus warrior and golden kite is the best! she most likely will be a main stay for teams!

Edited July 5, 2015 by DragonLordKamui

[Pretty_Handsome]

So, the redheads are destined to be together?

[mimasho]

ahh now that I'm looking at the stat growths, maybe Hinoka would be a better mother for Matoi ; m ;

I really wanted to marry Tsubaki to Aqua though....

but I guess Aqua!Matoi isn't that bad ??

[astrophys]

On that note, as female Avatar would pass down Nohr Princess to Matoi, she wouldn't be able to give Matoi Breaking Sky. Of course, Matoi could potentially grab that with marriage or buddying, but its convenient to have core skills on the character themselves to have more flexibility with resource distribution. And I'll be using a male Avatar marrying Matoi anyways rather than a female Avatar mothering her.

As noted above, Matoi has the following mothers who grant her Breaking Sky access without her needing to pick up the class via marriage seals or buddy seals, outside of female Avatar.

7. Orochi!Matoi +0 Str, +4 Mag, +5 Skl, -3 Spd, -1 Lck, +2 Def, +1 Res; Spellcaster/Excorcist/Basara

8 Hinoka!Matoi: +1 Str, +0 Mag, +2 Skl, +0 Spd, +0 Lck, +3 Def, +2 Res; Lance Fighter/Holy Lancer/Basara

10. Oboro!Matoi: +1 Str, +0 Mag, +4 Skl, +0 Spd, - 1 Lck, +5 Def, -1 Res; Lance Fighter/Holy Lancer/Basara

​Of these, Orochi!Matoi has a pretty horrendous speed modifier (-3), although she does have a +4 magic mod…. but given the importance of speed for doubling and preventing being doubled, I'd try to really avoid this one. As an aside, Orochi!Matoi does have Tomefaire, and when you combine that with Orochi's 65 magic growth that does give a magic growth rate of 33.33%… but Orochi also only has a strength growth of 5%, which would leave Matoi's strength growth at 23%…. in other words, she wouldn't' do particular well at either during the main game, while growths are still relevant. (Of course, none of that matters once stats are maxed… but even at maxed stats, we come back to that yucky -3 speed mod).

So let's instead look at the other two candidates, Hinoka and Oboro. Both pass down the same classes: Lance Fighter, Holy Lancer, and Basara. These grant the skills of: Defense Seal, Substitute, Speed Seal, Lancefaire, Breaking Sky, and Flamboyant.

In the long run, this puts them on equal footing, as they give the same pool of skills. In short-term practice, Oboro is able to pass something down to Matoi that's outside of Matoi's starting class tree, which lets them save on the usage of Parallel Seals. [Hinoka can pass down Lance Fighter tree skills too, but must use up a Parallel Seal to get into those classes so that she can do so].

​So then the consideration comes down to stat mods [long-term consideration] and growth rates [short-term consideration].

8 Hinoka!Matoi: +1 Str, +0 Mag, +2 Skl, +0 Spd, +0 Lck, +3 Def, +2 Res; Lance Fighter/Holy Lancer/Basara

10. Oboro!Matoi: +1 Str, +0 Mag, +4 Skl, +0 Spd, - 1 Lck, +5 Def, -1 Res; Lance Fighter/Holy Lancer/Basara

Mods: Whose is better?

Strength: Tied

Magic: Tied

Skill: Oboro (+2 lead, 4 vs. 2)

Speed: (Tied)

Luck: Hinoka (+1 lead, 0 vs. -1)

Defense: Oboro (+2 lead, 5 vs. 3)

Resistance: Hinoka (+3 lead, 2 vs. -1)

They both yield the same stat modifier total: a net of +8.

So the question becomes what is regarded as more valuable: Oboro's +2 skill and +2 defense edge, or Hinoka's +1 luck and +3 resistance edge.

If Matoi is fighting as a Peagsus Warrior upgraded to a Falcon Warrior, her most likely role is a mage killer, using weapon triangle advantage and Mirror Strike to slaughter opponents with tomes. Hinoka's resistance obviously aids this further .. the question is whether its "overkill" or not.. whether she wants even more resistance, or whether defense for other enemies would be preferred.

Oboro will also offer a +3% activation rate for Breaking Sky… before boosters, a maxed Hinoka!Matoi activates it at 48% as a Falcon Warrior (32 skill), while Oboro!Matoi activates it at 51%. This is likely too small a difference to really care all that much about, seeing that its not something like Awakening where 100% activations on some skills like Vengeance made the difference between perfect reliability and occasional unexpected failure. But its still a minor point helping Oboro here.

In terms of growth rates, Hinoka is superior… Matoi's and Subaki's personal growth rates are the same regardless, so only Hinoka's and Oboro's growth rates matter in determining which one offers the better set for Matoi. Growth rates, of course, are only a concern before maxing the character, such as main-game viability.

Hinoka: 45 45 15 40 45 40 35 40

Oboro: 30 40 20 40 40 40 40 30

Whose growth are better?

HP: Hinoka (+15%, 45% vs. 30%)

Str: Hinoka (+5%, 45% vs. 40%)

Mag: Oboro (+5%, 20% vs. 15%)

Skl: Tied

Speed: Hinoka (+5%, 45% vs. 40%)

Luck: Tied

Defense: Oboro (+5%, 40% vs 35%)

Resistance: Hinoka (+10%, 40% vs. 30%)

Net total growth winner: Hinoka (+25%, 305% between all stats vs. 280% between all stats)

Of course, assuming Awakening style growth, the contribution of the mother's growths is effectively growths/3 (Matoi's/3 + Tsubaki's/3 + Mother's/3), so the differences in Hinoka's overall growth rates are divided by 3 for all of the above examples.

That said, Hinoka does have better total growths than Oboro. (Actually, I've noticed that most of the royals uniformly have higher growths than most of the regular characters… story important Corrin/Kamui and Azura also have unusually high total growths on part with or slightly better than some of the royals)

Another point, in terms of overall optimization, is how the spouses benefit the husband. Of course, this is totally irrelevant for optimizing Matoi herself, but its an interesting peripheral consideration in optimizing the overall team.

Hinoka and Subaki share their starting class, so if the interpretation that Marriage Seals can only share the starting class, without doing any form of switchover to the secondary in the event of an overlap, would seem to imply that their marriage seals might be useless to each other…. Oboro and Subaki, in contrast, could trade each other Lance Fighter and Pegasus Warrior, which could allow both to become Lancefaire Falcon Warriors or something like that.

BUT, as a caveat, I'm not entirely sure how Marriage Seals actually work…. if they do happen to switch over to the secondary class in the event of a primary class overall it would nullify any advantage Oboro would have gained form this point. Could someone clarify this?

UPDATE/CORRECTION: SerenesForest user Arya has confirmed for me that marriage seals between Subaki and Hinoka do indeed work, so Subaki gets Lancer and Hinoka gets Samurai. Thus, the aforementioned hypothetical advantage of Oboro (now in strikethrough text) is nullified. Both pairings are equally capable of exploiting marriage seals.

ADDENDUM: In response to mimasho's post #4, Aqua/Azura actually does have marginally stronger total growth rates than Hinoka does… 310% between all stats vs. 305% in Hinoka's case. Of course, it also matters how they're distributed.

Azura 25 50 25 60 60 40 15 35

Hinoka 45 45 15 40 45 40 35 40

Winners in stat growth, Azura vs. Hinoka:

HP: Hinoka (+20% win)

Strength: Azura (+5% win)

Magic: Azura (+10% win)

Skill: Azura (+20% win)

Speed: Azura (+15% win)

Luck: Tie

Defense: Hinoka (+20% win)

Resistance: Hinoka (+5% win)

Hinoka wins handily in durabilty (HP, Defense, and Resistance), but Azura wins in all offensive stats (Strength, Magic, Skill, and Speed), with Speed also having a defense role in avoiding being doubled.

As for Azura!Matoi's mods vs. Hinoka!Matoi's mods, as well as class inheritances…

2. Azura!Matoi: +0 Str, +1 Mag, +4 Skl, +2 Spd, +0 Lck, +1 Def, +0 Res; ??? {does she get Rod Knight like Shigure?}

8 Hinoka!Matoi: +1 Str, +0 Mag, +2 Skl, +0 Spd, +0 Lck, +3 Def, +2 Res; Lance Fighter/Holy Lancer/Basara

I'm not actually sure what class Azura gives Matoi…. her son Shigure gets Rod Knight when he already has Pegasus Knight and his mother cannot give him Singer, but I don't know whether the same would apply to Matoi… could someone confirm?

Assuming its the same class, Azura!Matoi wouldn't give Lancefaire or Breaking Sky, but she would give access to Maid (for Servant's Joy in a staff support role or Tomebreaker for being a mage-killer) as well as Rod Knight (Resistance +2 at the cost of a skill slot, Demoiselle), and Strategist (Rally Resistance [giving Matoi a second rally] and Battle Command)

Given that Matoi has a damage boosting personal skill, Prodigy, that said, she's probably best used in an offensive capacity. But Tomebreaker would still be useful as a mage-killing technique, although she does already have Mirror Strike… but they could be used in conjunction.

But then again, we still need to confirm whether Azura would actually give her second child this class… its still unknown.

Edited July 6, 2015 by astrophys

[SapphireFalconWing]

If people want to pair aqua to get matoi then go ahead if not imo aqua should go with somebody else since Hinoka and Oboro give matoi all she needs to be a amazing unit but mostly Hinoka is the best choice for her Oboro seems better for either kisaragi, shinonome (even though he's a base lancer) or eponine of course if you want to.

Edited July 5, 2015 by DragonLordKamui

[astrophys]

From my analysis, my impression is that Hinoka is probably better for Matoi (slightly stronger growths for a better in-game Matoi, gives her resistance to bolster the naturally suited mage-killer role of a Pegasus Knight, etc.) and probably would have an easier time building support with Subaki (they have the same movement range, making it easier to keep them together when not using guard stance).

However, I also conclude that Oboro is probably a better wife for Subaki because they can actually exploit their marriage seals to get each other's classes, while Subaki and Hinoka seem unlikely to be able to do that…. that said, Subaki still has a proc (Astra), a -faire (sword faire), a damage booster option (Line of Death), and some other combat useful skills (such as the strike skills, such as Swallow Strike, Flowing Strike, or Mirror Strike), so perhaps he can fulfill a somewhat different role without really needing that much in the way of skills form his wife.

Although the fact that the marriage seal option is likely wasted is a mark against the allocative efficiency of Hinoka x Subaki.

But that matters nothing in regards to if its optimal TO MATOI.

Summary:

For Matoi herself: Hinoka

For Matoi and Subaki: Perhaps Oboro

That's my thoughts….

As an aside, Setsuna is interesting because she grants Prescient victory, which is a +4 damage booster, as well as Bowfaire that could be used for Golden Kite Warrior and a faster speed modifier… her strength growth isn't too hot, that said.

Also, Rinkah might allow for one of the highest defense units on the Hoshido side among 2nd gens, with 6 defense…. that could provide a very tanky unit as a Shura, although it might also be wasteful of Prodigy's effects… that and for in-game purposes at least Matoi probably would rather stick with Lances rather than having to build up a new axe rank… although it could still be done, obviously, its just an extra time/Weapon EXP cost that needs to be taken into consideration for main game. Obviously, it doesn't matter for post-game stat-maxed play.

Neither Rinkah nor Setsuna offer procs, however, which is a key downside. Although procs aren't as reliable either in this game due to lower skill caps.

Edited July 5, 2015 by astrophys

[SapphireFalconWing]

Hmm... True all in all its whether you want the best overall child from one (Hinoka) or the best child with better defense, low res and an ok subaki if people want to use him at all(Oboro).

Edited July 5, 2015 by DragonLordKamui

[astrophys]

So, if Hinoka!Matoi is the one that our discussion is currently favoring, what do you think the asset and flaw I should give my Avatar/Kamui/Corrin should be so that when he has a child (Kanna) with Matoi, said child will turn out the best Hinoka!Matoi!Kanna possible?

Likewise, what class do you think I should take as the Avatar's secondary class?

This will result in Hinoka!Matoi!Kanna's class set being:

Nohr Princess

Avatar's secondary class

Pegasus Warrior [inherited from Matoi]

Another relevant consideration here is that whatever the Avatar takes as his second class is something that Matoi will be able to access as well, via marriage Seals. But, of course, we also want something that is useful for the Avatar on his own.

These will be the stats that Hinoka!Matoi passes on as a mother.

Hinoka!Matoi: +1 Str, +0 Mag, +2 Skl, +0 Spd, +0 Lck, +3 Def, +2 Res

The Avatar himself will have 8 points of maximum stat increases from his asset and 5 points of maximum stat decreases from his flaw. Additionally, Kanna's personal skill directly incentivizes her to be using her Dragonstone, as her personal skill directly revolves around restoring HP by 15% whenever she has her Dragonstone equipped. Of course, she doesn't HAVE to use it, but its what her skill revolves around.

The basic dragonstone has the properties of: Critical Evade +10, Magic weapon, cannot double attack, Skill -3, Speed -2, Defence +4 and Resistance +3

Any suggestions? Stack Defense? Resistance (for Resistance + Speed peripheral)? An offense stat? etc.

​The rest of this post is just a summary of Hinoka!Matoi's parameters:

Pegasus Warrior [starting]{Swallow Strike, Eastern Heart},

Falcon Warrior {Rally Speed, Mirror Strike},

Golden Kite Warrior{Soar, Sun God}

Samurai [inherited from her father]{Flowing Strike, Vantage},

Trueblade {Astra, Swordfaire},

Weapons Master {Strength Seal, Line of Death}

Lance Fighter [inherited from her mother] {Defense Seal, Substitute}

Holy Lancer {Speed Seal, Lancefaire}

Basara {Breaking Sky, Flamboyant}

Max Stats:

Hinoka!Matoi: +1 Str, +0 Mag, +2 Skl, +0 Spd, +0 Lck, +3 Def, +2 Res

Hinoka's Matoi's Growth Rates before the effects of classes:

HP: 51.667%; Str: 36.667%; Mag: 16.667%; Skl: 43.333%; Spd: 35.000%; Lck: 36.667%; Def: 38.333%; Res: 21.666%

[SapphireFalconWing]

I'd say speed asset and luck as flaw since it neutrals out strength, -1 mag if you care, +4 skill, +4 spd, +2 luck, +3 def and +2 res seems really good for Kanna

[Pretty_Handsome]

+Speed/-Luck is still superior? Huh, thought the others would get boosted somewhat as that was the best combo in Awakening by far outside specific third gen Morgan pairings.

[Black Mage]

Has it been confirmed that growth inheritance works like Awakening? Because that's bizarre with stuff like Arthur being able to screw the supposed awesome luck of Lutz after averaging his luck or the system be the same with people like Gunther existing and being marriageable.

In the previous thread and this one I've saw people with their theorycrafting, but has this mechanic been 100% proven?

[astrophys]

Actually, to my knowledge, it isn't confirmed yet, which is why its all assumptions right now…

That said:

If its just their own personal growths:

Matoi: 55% Hp, 35% Str, 15% Mag, 40% Skl, 40% Spd, 45% Lck, 35% Def, 20% Res

If its Awakening style growth inheritance:

Hinoka!Matoi: 51.667% HP; 36.667% Str ; 16.667% Mag; 43.333% Skl; 35.000% Spd; 36.667% Lck; 38.333% Def; 21.666% Res

So in this case, Matoi happens to (in most cases) its not a huge departure… most of her growths end up fairly close either way.

Although if it doesn't work Awakening style then the argument of Hinoka having better growth rates to give to Matoi than Oboro would become void.

[Ayra]

By the way, here's my Matoi with Hinoka as mother, with 0 class changing.

Level 20/13 Falcon Warrior:

32 HP

23 Strength

10 Magic

26 Skill

33 Speed

31 Luck

21 Def

28 Res

She wasn't too useful overall compared to my other units; she's fast and durable, but she still couldn't go toe to toe with any enemy unit type lategame due to lack of hit points except against maybe mages. She was mainly used with the magic spear to attack at 2 range to deal mediocre damage, as a frontline healer or to swoop in with her silver lance to finish off a weakened enemy (She doubles everything, but if she gets hit by a counterattack she'll die in one more hit late game).

Hinoka fared even worse on my two Hoshido playthrough . She's useful at taking out mages (or flyers) but she's so utterly weak offensively.

First playthrough:

Level 20/10 Golden Kite warrior:

35 HP

19 Strength

9 Magic

25 Skill

30 Speed

25 Luck

15 Def

27 Res

Second playthrough:

Level 20/11 Falcon Warrior:

36 HP

18 Strength

11 Magic

27 Skill

36 Speed

22 Luck

16 Def

33 Res

I'm honestly disapointed. On paper they look great, and I'm a huge Pegasus Knight fan (I always use a minimum of two in every single FE on every single playthrough, sometime more), but... Except to snipe flyers or to lure mages at max distance with the Golden Kite bows, I found little practical use for either pegasus knight or golden warriors late game. I'm still going to give Hinoka another chance when I do the third path playthrough; maybe third time's the charm.

Edited July 11, 2015 by Ayra

[astrophys]

Matoi should supposedly have a 51% HP growth if it follows Awakening styled rules for inheritance, 55% if its just her personal growth… Matoi really shouldn't have ended up with such low HP, much less lower than her mother… Hinoka only has a 45% Hp growth… Subaki also has a 55% HP growth.

Its weird that your Matoi thus ends up with low HP… I'm guessing that she likely got RNG screwed….

I earlier did an estimate of what I thought Hinoka!Matoi's stats should end up as, based on the information on Base Stats, Base Stat Inheritance, and Growths posted on this website, and this is what I got for 20/20 Hinoka!Matoi, assuming recruitment from 20/0 and 20/0 parents (I don't know how strong they were when you recited her):

My predictions:

43 HP, 27 Str, 13 Mag, 32 Skl (would be 33, but capped), 34 SPD, 31 Lck, 24 Def, and 29 Res (and these were round-downs)

Subtracting off 7 levels:

Estimated 20/13 Matoi, with 20/0 and 20/0 parents when recruited…

40 HP, 24 Str, 11 Mag, 29 SKL, 30 SPD, 27 Lck, 21 Def, 26 Res

Your… Level 20/13 Falcon Warrior (unknown parent level upon recruit):

32 HP , 23 Strength, 10 Magic, 26 Skill, 33 Speed, 31 Luck, 21 Def, 28 Res

This suggests that you had far less HP than my estimates thought you would…. it could be that my estimates are wrong, or it could be that your situation is to far away from my assumptions, or it could be that you got RNG screwed. The other stats you have there don't seem all that bad, honestly…

I myself was almost certainly going to try to put Hinoka Matoi through Holy Lancer for a bit to pick up its skills…. if level 20/15 was reached, Lancefaire would become a possibility….

I was also thinking of trying to A+-support Hinoka with Setsuna in an effort to pick up Prescient Victory, once that makes Bowman a Buddy-sealable class option, as then presumably Hinoka could add +4 damage in initiated player phase attacks…and she could then perhaps pass that down to Matoi…. it would basically just require a Golden Kite Warrior level thereafter to pull out.

But I don't have the game yet, so I'm just theory-crafting here, while you speak from experience.

But then again, PEMN as the old saying goes… would Matoi have been more survivable for you if she had had closer to 40 HP? I'm suspecting that she should have… she definitely should have had more than Hinoka did on average….

[Ayra]

Having 40 hit points would have put her in the incredibly rare "She can survive two hits from the enemy" category, so she'd have been very useful as a tank (as strange as it sounds from a Pegasus Knight).

Prescient Victory would have been useful for sure. The thing is, money is stupidly scarce in this game. Even on Hoshido, you get about 3k gold for winning a skirmish. Buying a low level skirmish costs about 1500 gold, an high level one around 4000 (so you effectively lose money). So your only source of bonus money is by clearing stages that have level 5 enemies (and are utterly pointless for either experience or entertainment sake). You would get more if you cleared every single skirmish that appears for free throughout the game though, and you do have enough money naturally to either buy some of the premium weaponry or to favorise a few of your units with class changes, but only for a few. 4k gold to pick up one skill adds up really fast. I really dislike grinding in any game though, so for people who like to do that I'm sure you could eventually get dream setups on all your units with a lot of patience.

By the way, I just checked and on my second playthrough I never recruited Matoi. Here's what her stats would be if I would do her Paralogue now and use the Children Seal she comes with. Her mother this time is Hana.

Level 20/10 Falcon Knight

34 HP

24 Strength

10 Magic

21 Skill

29 Speed

25 Luck

15 Def

24 Res

So substancially worse than my previous Matoi...

[astrophys]

Well, of course….

As noted before, Matoi has a personal HP growth rate of 55% according to the info posted on this website, which if we assume becomes influenced by parental growths like in Awakening gets modified in the case of Hinoka!Matoi to (55% + 55% + 45%)/3 = 51.666% growth.

Hana has only a 25% HP growth (personal) to Hinoka's 45% HP growth, so Hana!Matoi would get (55%+55%+25%) = 45% HP growth if Awakening rules apply. Over gaining 19 levels (11-20, 1 promoted - 10 promoted), that accounts for a deficit of 1 HP from growths. But that's not the only issue at play here:

Children

The tables below list the children’s absolute base stats before adding their class’s base stats and factoring in the contributions from their parents.

Notes:

• The childrens’ actual base stats = [(mother’s current stats – mother’s class base stats) + (father’s current stats – father’s class base stats) + child’s absolute base stats] / 3 + child’s class base stats
• The later you recruit a child, the higher their Level and stats. If their initial Level is higher than 10, add the corresponding number of Level Ups using the child’s growth rates in their current class to estimate their stats.

So here's another issue that factor's in… Hana is not likely to have gained very much HP, so that's going to drag down Matoi's base HP stat…

I don't know what level you had Hana at when you recruited Matoi, but Hana only has 35% HP growths when her class is considered; Hinoka has 45% HP growths… Of course, the mother provides only a factor that's one third of the calculation, so it might not be a huge influence, but it will still drag down the average.

Hana also starts with 20 HP, according to this site, while a Samurai's base is 3… by level 8 (gained 4 levels), she hold have gained an average of 1.4 HP, bringing her up to 21 HP at level 8 vs. a class base of 17. {I'm doing this calculation to achieve parity of comparison}.

Hinoka goins at level 8 with 23 HP… the base HP of her class is 16. So Hinoka starts with a current stat - class base stat = 7 in HP.

By the same point that Hana has reached the same level, the expectation value is that Hana will have a current HP - class base HP = 4.

That's a difference by 3, which given the /3 in the formal means that Hinoka is going to contribute on average about 1 more HP to Matoi's starting bases even if she was recruited form a hypothetical level 8 parent….. and the gap will only grow. Twleve more levels at 45% growth should give Hinoka 5.4 more HP, while 12 levels at 35% growth should give Hana 4.2 more HP.

20/0 Hinoka: 28.4 HP (12.4 HP more than base classes)

20/0 Hana: 25.6 HP (8.6 HP more than base classes)

So by this point, Hinoka should be contributing 1.266 more HP than Hana does…

Matoi has a personal (pre-adjustment) base of 8 HP…

Subaki is a level 5 with 22 HP and 55% HP growth… in 15 levels, he should hit 30.25 HP on average…

Hinoka!Matoi, assuming 20/0 parents on recruitment: 16 HP + ((28.4 HP-16) + (30.25 HP-16HP) + 8 HP)/3 = 16 HP + (12.4 HP + 14.25 HP +8 HP) = 16 HP + 11.55 HP = 27.55 HP for a level 10/0 unit…

Anyways, Hana!Matoi has less total growths than Hinoka!Matoi if it works like Awakening… Hana has 265% of growths; Hinoka has 305%…

Hana!Matoi would have 266.67% growths.. Hinoka!Matoi would have 280% growths… (obviously, this doesn't consider how they're distributed). Over 20 levels, growths alone would lead to an expectation of Matoi having a total of 2.66 less stat points, even before bases.

[XeKr]

fwiw I don't think base stat inheritance works the same way. I did some rudimentary testing and I felt like I saw some child's stats lower between chapters (could perhaps be due to random leveling to 20). But also, their stats are far less impressive than what I remember from those Awakening, or expect from the same type of inheritance (even those such as Monzume!Shinonome). Usable still, but not outclassing parents.

To give a simple example, in his paralogue level 20 Shinonome has 19 strength. He should have 13 from bases and class. Just growing 10 levels to 20 at his ~65% growth gives him the rest of the points. No stat inheritance, apparently (obviously both Ryouma and Monzume have great stats). However, this doesn't seem to always be consistent. In particular his speed is a bit better than expected (he has 17). So I think growths may be affected still. (btw aptitude doesn't seem to do anything)

There's a few other cases too like Kinu having worse stats than Nishiki at level 20. Shigure's Def being far too passable to be Azura's son. etcetc.

On another note. I also found Hinoka very unimpressive until I reclassed her to Lance Fighter. At least she could do damage then. >_>

Edited July 12, 2015 by XeKr

[astrophys]

Well, its always possible that something could be up with the equations that were posted… perhaps they're wrong?

This might also explain why Arya is getting low HPs on Matoi…

Let's see…

7 STR absolute base Shino

Lance Fighter has 6 strength base and +15% growth

Shino has 50% STR gorwth (personal) and his parents have 40% and 45%… if this works like Awakening, he should have 45% personal growths… if not, it would be his own 50% growth…

As it happens, leveling him to by 10 will still give him 6 points at a 60% growth, so we cannot tell the difference here…

Ryouma + Mozume would raise Shinome's speed growth from 35% to 45%, so ten levels would give him 1 more speed than expected…

Perhaps the posted information is wrong and the base stats don't get inheritance in this game?

In that case, maybe Arya didn't get RNG screwed after all…

[XeKr]

I happen to have an older save file there so you can try to figure things out if you want. I gave it a small attempt earlier but too busy playing.

Again I'm pretty sure I've seen children stats vary a point up or down between chapters, so I do think there's a small random component (probably when autoleveling to 20). Would be good for someone else to confirm this though in case I'm going crazy. >_>

Name   Ryouma Monzume Shinonome
Level  --/12  29      20

Hp     38     37      31
Str    23     24      19
Mag    2      6       0
Skl    24     26      18
Spd    30     32      17
Luck   23     17      14
Def    17     17      18
Res    17     26      12

Ryouma is Trueblade
Monzume is Dread Fighter
Shinonome is Lance Fighter

btw this is Lunatic which has "fixed" growths. That's true enough, as verified during resets, but they don't seem to adhere to averages (until 20/20?). Anyways side note... Edited July 12, 2015 by XeKr

[astrophys]

Interesting… in this case, I can conclusively confirm that the posted formula cannot possibly work…

Firstly, a Dread Fighter base has 3 Mag, so if the formula worked, Mozume's 6 Mag (3 above base) would give a mother's magic - class base magic =3 term into the equal, which when divided by 3 at the end suggests an inherited +1 magic stat.

But Shinonome DOESN'T Have an magic whatsoever, which should not have happened if he had inherited growths…

That said, the non-inheritance model predicts that he should have had 15 SPD by this point, but fixed is giving him 17… perhaps he got RNG blessed by whatever RN fixed got set on…

But regardless, his parents had 19 and 24 speed more than their base class, so if the formula we were given actually worked, combined with his 3, his actual base would have been 15 spd on its own, plus 6 from class bases and roughly 6 from growth… he would have had 27 SPD… but he only has 17… he would have had 21 SPD even before growths…

So thanks… you've helped debunk the formula we were given.

EDIT:

Look at Arya's Hana!Matoi, 20/10 Falcon Warrior example:

Level 20/10 Falcon Knight

34 HP

24 Strength

10 Magic

21 Skill

29 Speed

25 Luck

15 Def

24 Res

Out of curiosity, I did the calculations to see what would happen if growth rates and bases remained personal, without parental inference, and calculated what Matoi would end up as under such conditions..

36.45 HP, 21.55 Str, 11.75 Mag, 20.5 Skl, 26.35 Spd, 26.35 Lck, 16.65 Def, 22.6 Rres

Let's compare

Level 20/10 Falcon Knight

34 HP - 36.45 = -2.45 HP

24 Strength - 21.55 = +2.45 STR

10 Magic - 11.75 = -1.75 Mag

21 Skill -20.5 = +0.5 SKl

29 Speed - 26.35 = + 2.65 SPD

25 Luck - 26.35 = -1.35 LCK

15 Def -16.65 DEF = -1.65 DEF

24 Res - 22.6 RES +1.4 RES

This does seem like it could quite plausibly just be within RNG variance…

If growths were inherited from Hana and Subaki:

Hana, 25, 55, 10, 45, 55, 25, 20, 30, Subaki, 55, 30, 20, 50, 20, 25, 45, 5,

Matoi (personal base), 55, 35, 15, 40, 40, 45, 35, 20,

45% HP (less than base), 38.33% Str (more than base), 15% Mag (equal), 45% Skl (more), 38.33 % Spd (less), 31.66% (less), 33.333 Def (less), 18.33% Res (less)

Edited July 12, 2015 by astrophys

[Ayra]

I just did a small test. I've fed Hana (Level 20/10 Trueblade) all my stat boosters and tried to recruit Matoi again. For reference, what I gave Hana amounted to:

+5 HP

+4 Strength (Capped)

+5 Magic

+5 Skill

+3 Speed (Capped)

+9 Luck

+5 Def

+3 Res

And here's Matoi's stats on recruitment/using Child seal to bring her to 20/10 Falcon Warrior again:

34 HP

25 Strength

10 Magic

23 Skill

30 Speed

25 Luck

15 Def

24 Res

So if we compare that with pre-boosted Hana

Level 20/10 Falcon Knight

34 HP

24 Strength

10 Magic

21 Skill

29 Speed

25 Luck

15 Def

24 Res

Some stats went up so there is some inheritance... However, HP and Magic went up by 5 on Hana and Luck by a whooping 9, yet Matoi's Luck, Magic and HP stats remained the same.

Edited July 12, 2015 by Ayra

[astrophys]

Interesting… however, it be odd for only certain stats to benefit…

Could it be instead that it just re-rolled every single level up independently when child sealing her and gave you the result, and you just happened to get marginally higher level ups, (without getting unlucky and having some drop)….

But yes, we've confirmed that the formula as stated doesn't work as posted on the website, as otherwise (for example), Hanna should have given an extra 3 luck to Matoi, and other such things….

This means Matoi isn't as strong of a unit as my prior calculations suggested, nor is any other child…..

[XeKr]

lol I just tried something similar and gave Monzume...

+5 Hp

+4 Str

+4 Mag

+10 luck (capped)

+4 def

+2 res

And Shinonome got

+1 Hp

+1 Mag

+2 luck

So...don't really know what's happening. Also the same happens if I give Ryouma the boosters.

Also to clarify, the randomness I thought I was seeing was between chapters. Like the child has certain stats, beat a story chapter, then check the child again who has different stats (sometimes). The paralogue also scales a little to reflect the story progress, which I think may be when the stats are rerolled.

Edited July 12, 2015 by XeKr

[Ayra]

It doesn't seem to be random: I did check a few times prior to posting the first stats (before stat boost) and her stats always seemed to be the same post promotion. I also just tried only giving her all the stat boosters except for the Luck, Res and Def ones, and she still has the exact same stats I posted above.

Children do seem weak in general. For example, on my first playthrough when I recruited Kinu (around level 17 I think), I had Nishiki at level 18 and a super rng-blessed Oboro at level 20/2, and every single of Kinu's stats were inferior to Nishiki's. I've used 7 children intensively so far, and they were always inferior to the parent units (some by a lot, some by a minute amount); Shara is the only one that performed better.

Edited July 12, 2015 by Ayra