General US Politics

[CyborgZeta]

If Trump focuses on his economic message and non-intervention stance (at least compared to Hillary), then I think he stands a decent shot of winning a general. The debates between Trump and Hillary are bound to be prime time entertainment; he'll probably throw her for a loop.

[Anacybele]

We're talking about trade now? I don't think Trump is really anti-trade, he just wants the US to be more of a producing nation than a consuming one. As it stands, the US consumes more than it produces, which really makes no sense because it's the only country that can actually sustain itself. It has all the resources it needs. On the trading side, other nations will want some of the resources we have, and they can buy them or give us a little extra of a different resource in return. Making the US a more producing nation does not at all mean that it won't trade with other nations anymore. Trump wants the US to start making more of its own shit. To start drilling more of its own oil, etc. etc.

If people would just do their research and look more into the ideas Trump has, people would know how good this guy can actually be for us if he follows through with his plans.

Trump also said that "it's despicable that an illegal immigrant can cross the border and get free health care while one of our veterans has to be on a waiting list." Something along the lines of that. This is so true too. Our veterans deserve free health care before ANYBODY around here (except maybe kids in some cases). My stepdad is also a vet himself, so I have a lot of reason to support more vets getting free health care. Go Trump!

Edited May 10, 2016 by Anacybele

[Lord Raven]

Trump also said that "it's despicable that an illegal immigrant can cross the border and get free health care while one of our veterans has to be on a waiting list." Something along the lines of that. This is so true too. Our veterans deserve free health care before ANYBODY around here (except maybe kids in some cases).

did he really say this

link it

because this is pretty far from true

[Tryhard]

I don't know how credible this source is, but:

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/melanie-hunter/trump-illegals-are-treated-better-veterans

It doesn't really describe how illegal immigrants get treated better in terms of healthcare.

He claims "providing healthcare to illegal immigrants costs us some $11 billion annually ... If we were to simply enforce the current immigration laws and restrict the unbridled granting of visas to this country, we could relieve healthcare cost pressures on state and local governments."

http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2016-election/donald-trump-reveals-details-his-health-care-plan-n530701

Edited May 10, 2016 by Tryhard

[Water Mage]

We're going to see one of the most vicious general elections in recent American history.

It should be great.

Is it a bad thing that the reason I'm mostly paying attention to this election not out of intellectual curiosity, but because of how amusing it is?

Back on th subject, whose "skeletons in the closet" are dirtier? Clinton's or Trump?

Because a scandal could decide this race, and both a lot of material for scandals.

That being said, I wonder if Trump wins, what kind of adventures can we expect from the Trumps living in the White House?

What kind of scandals will we have with president Trump?

Because let's be honest, Donald Trump in the White House is the recipe for a lot of scandals.

I'm not even joking. I'm actually being serious. After all if anyone is going to win something from Trump winning, it will be the media.

Which makes me wonder, if Trump ever wins, what will happen after he leaves the White House?

What would he do after being president? I'm genuinely curious.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Water Mage

[Tryhard]

I will mock America if it actually happens. Well, at least, until it affects every other country.

Not that I really hold Hillary in any high regard to say the least.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Tryhard

[Alertcircuit]

If this video is just an indicator of the media blitz to come, I'm gonna say Trump's might come up dirtier. Hillary's e-mail scandal and her defending that rapist in 1975 are gonna haunt her though.

[Person123]

Here's another taste of what's to come in the general election,

Ahahaha this is going to get dirty quick. Hillary doesn't have skeletons in the closet, she's got a damn warehouse.

Could also look up Whitewater if you're interested in another part of her colorful history.

[Anacybele]

did he really say this

link it

because this is pretty far from true

I DID say "something along the lines of this" you know. Meaning I might not have said Trump's quote word for word. But I saw it in an image of Trump posted on Facebook. Yes, I'm aware that Facebook is full of crap a lot. But that crap is normally insults and negative stuff, not positive things.

By now that post is buried, so I don't think I'd ever be able to find it. You might find it by googling the guy and looking in the images section though.

EDIT: Nah, doesn't seem to be there. I tried. xP

Edited May 10, 2016 by Anacybele

[Phoenix Wright]

We're talking about trade now? I don't think Trump is really anti-trade, he just wants the US to be more of a producing nation than a consuming one. As it stands, the US consumes more than it produces, which really makes no sense because it's the only country that can actually sustain itself. It has all the resources it needs. On the trading side, other nations will want some of the resources we have, and they can buy them or give us a little extra of a different resource in return. Making the US a more producing nation does not at all mean that it won't trade with other nations anymore. Trump wants the US to start making more of its own shit. To start drilling more of its own oil, etc. etc.

none of this paragraph makes sense. i'm almost inclined to disregard it completely, but as with any time i spend on this place anymore, i'm bored/procrastinating. anyway,

1. really. the united states is the only country on earth that can sustain itself? it has all the resources it needs? why trade? why do we need leverage against other nations and "extra" resources in return?

2. more oil. energy needs aren't in oil, it's elsewhere. even if we assume fossil fuels and coal don't negatively affect the environment (they do, the resource won't last anywhere near forever. we need to look elsewhere, and for more efficient energies. for physical reasons, fossil fuels are usually pathetically inefficient (you need a lot to get a little power), whereas solar and nuclear are both getting much better as r&d progresses.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Phoenix Wright

[-Cynthia-]

IMO the general public's opinion of Clinton or Trump is unlikely to change significantly because the general public already knows them pretty well. Is bringing up Benghazi again or crap Trump said years ago really a difference maker for most people?

[Lord Raven]

I DID say "something along the lines of this" you know. Meaning I might not have said Trump's quote word for word. But I saw it in an image of Trump posted on Facebook. Yes, I'm aware that Facebook is full of crap a lot. But that crap is normally insults and negative stuff, not positive things.

but

you can't really add a qualifier to a fact

you also made the claim as a fact that illegal immigrants get free healthcare and veterans dont

but this claim is dubious

this is why we keep telling you to fucking factcheck before you post

[XeKr]

this will probably be my only attempt for a rational Trump discussion

It’s easy to say anything you want, especially if pandering to a demographic. For example here’s Clinton copypasta'd on Veterans' issues.

• Fundamentally reform veterans’ health care to ensure access to timely and high quality care and block efforts to privatize the VA. Hillary was outraged by the recent scandals at the VA, and as president, she will demand performance and results. Hillary’s plan will transform the VA into an integrated health care system and care coordinator, and improve access and services for women and LGBT veterans. She also understands the unique challenges faced by many veterans and will ensure the VA and DoD remain national leaders in vets-specific health issues while expanding access to mental health services and treatment. And Hillary will fight as long and hard as it takes to prevent Republicans from privatizing the VA as part of a misguided ideological crusade.
• Modernize and refocus the full spectrum of veterans’ benefits across the government by implementing a “New Bradley Plan” in the spirit of General Omar Bradley, who solved the crisis in VA access and benefits after World War II. Hillary will create a standing President’s Council on Veterans to ensure the highest levels of government are fully involved and synchronizing their efforts to get veterans the benefits they’ve earned. Her New Bradley Plan also will end the claims and appeals backlog through initiatives that streamline and simplify the process and innovative solutions that ensure it won’t happen again.
• Overhaul VA governance to create a new veteran-centric model of excellence.The VA cannot be fixed without accountability. Hillary’s plan will hold every employee, from the top leadership to mid-level managers to entry-level employees, accountable for upholding the highest workplace standards and putting veterans first. But unlike some plans put forward by Republicans, Hillary’s plan includes whistleblower protections – because those who come forward to report wasteful programs or inefficient practices embody the spirit of reform and excellence that the VA must champion, not silence.
• Empower veterans and strengthen our economy and communities by connecting their unique skills to the jobs of the future. Hillary believes we have to invest in our vets and make sure that the men and women who risk their lives for our country have access to a good education and good jobs when they come home. Her plan will expand and solidify educational benefits and programs that help veterans get jobs after their service. To make sure they get a fair shot, she will strengthen measures that protect veterans from predatory schools and businesses, and improve programs that help them get back on their feet.

But in fact, Clinton has actually done policy stuff, so we might be more inclined to believe her:

• Increased assistance for families caring for veterans. Hillary introduced the Heroes at Home Act of 2006, and fought to establish new services for military members and veterans suffering from post-traumatic stress and traumatic brain injuries. She successfully amended the 2007 Defense Appropriations Act to establish a traumatic brain injury family caregiver training curriculum for DOD and VA hospitals, and she championed efforts to create programs that make it easier for military family members to provide care for their loved ones.
• Expanded health care coverage for Reservists and National Guard members.Hillary worked across the aisle with Senator Lindsey Graham to expand veterans’ access to military health insurance, ensuring that all members of the Reserves and National Guard—and their families—had access to military health benefits even when they’re not deployed.
• Protected family members caring for wounded warriors. Hillary collaborated closely with Senator Chris Dodd to author and introduce new legislation that aimed to broaden protections afforded by the Family and Medical Leave Act to the family members of wounded service members. She is proud that the legislation was enacted as part of the 2008 National Defense Authorization Act.
• Supported survivors of fallen service members. Working with Republican Senator Kay Bailey Hutchison, Hillary sponsored legislation to expand benefits afforded to surviving spouses. She and Republican Senator Chuck Hagel also introduced a bill to increase the gratuity paid to family members of fallen veterans from $12,000 to $100,000; the proposal was enacted as part of the 2005 supplemental appropriations act. Hillary also served as an honorary board member for the non-profit Tragedy Assistance Program for Survivors, which provides resources and support to family members of those who have died in military service.
• Joined efforts to build veterans rehabilitation center. Hillary joined with Republican Senator John McCain to personally raise money for the Intrepid Fallen Heroes Fund. Their efforts were critical to building the Center for the Intrepid, a new $50 million state-of-the-art physical rehabilitation facility in San Antonio, Texas, designed specifically to help seriously wounded service members returning from Iraq and Afghanistan.

Meanwhile, Trump’s office can claim whatever they want, as they don’t respond to fact checking requests (per WaPo, https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/few-stand-in-trumps-way-as-he-piles-up-the-four-pinocchio-whoppers/2016/05/07/8cf5e16a-12ff-11e6-8967-7ac733c56f12_story.html pesky liberal establishment propaganda again). I suppose Politifact is also clearly bought by establishment shills, so we can safely ignore them taking on Trump's Veterans positions? http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/jul/21/donald-trump/after-not-war-hero-remark-donald-trump-says-john-m/

At some point, the whole “I don’t believe Clinton means the progressive things she says” and “I believe Trump doesn’t mean the racist, misogynistic, xenophobic things he says” is just textbook cognitive dissonance.

(I suppose the new argument is to label meta points like these as “smug” or “condescending”, but how far does the rabbit hole go...?)

Basically, Clinton may be overly hawkish (and therefore terrible imo) but for something not ostensibly political, scotus is way (way) too important. Scalia’s seat is open. Ginsburg will be 83, Kennedy will be 80, Breyer will be 78.

Here's another taste of what's to come in the general election,

Ahahaha this is going to get dirty quick. Hillary doesn't have skeletons in the closet, she's got a damn warehouse.

Could also look up Whitewater if you're interested in another part of her colorful history.

That stuff is all public and mainstream so it’s not really “skeletons” unless new information comes up.

The Benghazi committee questioned Clinton for 11 hours straight last year with little effect. The Vince Foster and Whitewater stuff has been closed for 20+ years. Bill was still a relatively popular president when exiting office, and he was even impeached. Hillary was still a popular Senator of a large state and Secretary of State (amazing, her job approval is high when she is doing her job).

Anyone can make up conspiracy theories with no actual evidence. It might work, certainly (as is apparent, I’m pretty cynical about the electorate), but let’s call it what it is unless there’s strong evidence. Innocent until proven guilty (beyond reasonable doubt) and all that.

Trump has said certain things recently and his primary campaign was predicated on those things. And the general looks to continue that.

Edited May 10, 2016 by XeKr

[Anacybele]

none of this paragraph makes sense. i'm almost inclined to disregard it completely, but as with any time i spend on this place anymore, i'm bored/procrastinating. anyway,

1. really. the united states is the only country on earth that can sustain itself? it has all the resources it needs? why trade? why do we need leverage against other nations and "extra" resources in return?

And you're not making any sense to me at all. Why trade? Uh, like I said, the US is the only country that can sustain itself, meaning every other country has at least one resource that it lacks, but could probably use. That's where nations like the US come in, who can TRADE them said resource for money or something else. Is this clear enough for you? If not, let me make a little play skit for ya.

US: Woo hoo, I've got everything I need!

Other country: Man, we could sure use product X. It's too bad we don't have the means to produce it.

US: Heya, I've got some extra product X! I'll give you some for $50 per lb, how about it?

Other country: Cool! Deal!

(this is just an example, of course)

Edited May 10, 2016 by Anacybele

[Acacia Sgt]

And you're not making any sense to me at all. Why trade? Uh, like I said, the US is the only country that can sustain itself, meaning every other country has at least one resource that it lacks, but could probably use. That's where nations like the US come in, who can TRADE them said resource for money or something else. Is this clear enough for you?

But if they can be self-sustained... why need anything at all from the outside? They'd be just giving stuff away, not trading it for stuff they don't need.

Although... is the US really self-sustained? Is there proof of that claim that can be checked?

[Water Mage]

And you're not making any sense to me at all. Why trade? Uh, like I said, the US is the only country that can sustain itself, meaning every other country has at least one resource that it lacks, but could probably use. That's where nations like the US come in, who can TRADE them said resource for money or something else. Is this clear enough for you? If not, let me make a little play skit for ya.

US: Woo hoo, I've got everything I need!

Other country: Man, we could sure use product X. It's too bad we don't have the means to produce it.

US: Heya, I've got some extra product X! I'll give you some for $50, how about it?

Other country: Cool! Deal!

With all due respect, how can say the US can sustain itself?

No country can do that!

If the US can sustain itself, why would it seek trade with other countries?

[Anacybele]

But if they can be self-sustained... why need anything at all from the outside?

If the US can sustain itself, why would it seek trade with other countries?

Exactly! This is what I'm saying doesn't make sense and why Trump wants us to start producing more than we consume. That way, we can both sustain the American people and also sell any surplus product/resource to other countries who need it.

Basically, Trump thinks we rely too much on importing stuff from other countries. And I think he's right. All this "made in China/Mexico/Taiwan/India/whichever" is getting out of hand. I hardly see anything that's actually made right here in the US. More of these things SHOULD be made here in the US. We even import a lot of our oil from Arabia instead of drilling our own! And oil is found all over this country. Alaska, Texas, and the northeast too.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Anacybele

[Acacia Sgt]

Exactly! This is what I'm saying doesn't make sense and why Trump wants us to start producing more than we consume. That way, we can both sustain the American people and also sell any surplus product/resource to other countries who need it.

But can you prove that they can, in fact, be self-sustainable?

[Water Mage]

Exactly! This is what I'm saying doesn't make sense and why Trump wants us to start producing more than we consume. That way, we can both sustain the American people and also sell any surplus product/resource to other countries who need it.

But the US can't sustain itself, it's simply impossible.

Even if you produce more, you need things like Oil and Cheap Labor.

And the US barely produces primary products.

If the strategy is to produce more than you can cosume by yourself, it's doomed to fail, because the resources will eventually end.

[Anacybele]

But can you prove that they can, in fact, be self-sustainable?

Yep. We have plenty of oil. We have farmland. We have forests. We have tropical locations. We have every type of landform that exists: mountains, plains, forests, islands, desert, canyons, etc. And with all those landforms comes the resources they naturally carry.

By consume, I don't mean what the American people consume themselves, by the way, I mean what gets imported from other nations. I thought I made that clear, but it looks like I didn't, my bad. I just can't ever be good at explaining things...

Edited May 10, 2016 by Anacybele

[Water Mage]

Yep. We have plenty of oil. We have farmland. We have forests. We have tropical locations. We have every type of landform that exists: mountains, plains, forests, islands, desert, etc. And with all those landforms comes the resources they naturally carry.

But those resources are finite.

They won't last forever.

EDIT: It that wasn't what meant, then you shouldn't have used the word "self-sustainable", it means that a country can sustain itself without comsuming goods from other countries. What you are trying to explain is completely different.

And yes, the US have a lot of resources, but it still lacks a very important one, that you didn't mention: Cheap Labor.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Water Mage

[Phoenix Wright]

And you're not making any sense to me at all. Why trade? Uh, like I said, the US is the only country that can sustain itself, meaning every other country has at least one resource that it lacks, but could probably use. That's where nations like the US come in, who can TRADE them said resource for money or something else. Is this clear enough for you? If not, let me make a little play skit for ya.

you've managed to be even more condescending than me, but unfortunately your argument doesn't even hold on one of the most fundamental resources: water. california is in a water crisis. there's a state mandate to cut water. if we're self-sufficient, why can't we just get water from some other place for free?

then we can cut to oil, where we provide for ourselves upwards of 38% (i think it's more but i don't care to google it). that means we rely on other countries for their oil. we rely on other countries for lots of things, found in visuals in the website linked below.

also, does it really matter that we import more than we export from a globalist perspective when we're the second largest exporting nation in the world? from a budget perspective, this could matter, but from a trading perspective? i don't think it does.

one of the most beautiful things about being alive, to me at least, is that no one in the world is self-reliant. this is partly the reason isolationist policy doesn't work (at least not for very long), generally speaking (or at least is not favorable to most worldviews). we all rely on each other. one basic economic theory is to specialize in a few things and be good at them rather than spread yourself thin and be bad at all of them--this is the basic idea of trade. we trade with other nations who do some things better than us so that we have an overall higher standard.

also, though we do indeed have quite the varying climate and biomes throughout the united states, this does not guarantee abundant resources. sometimes, especially with mined resources, we simply don't have the technology to drill them out, cause they can get pretty deep. the united states has lots of resources, but we aren't close to self-sufficiency.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Phoenix Wright

[-Cynthia-]

Hmm, I'm not finding much solid evidence(or even informed opinions) on self-sustainability of countries, probably because it's purely theoretical. This https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/which-country-most-economically-self-sufficient-ramya-emandi is the most relevant thing I could find. The US does have some attributes which could make it self-sustaining for some time, but I'd hardly claim that they're definitely the only ones based on this (Canada, Russia, and Scandanavian countries can make some arguments).

[Tryhard]

No country is self-reliant. As much as we hate to admit it, countries take advantages of exploiting people around the world for their own benefit. The US, or any country, can't produce everything needed to sustain itself. I don't think the US is particularly special in being able to provide itself sufficient resources.

If Trump thinks he's gonna be one to make America completely self-reliant, it will be a first. Forgive me for not thinking that he even knows how to go about that. And well, you better hope that his foreign policy won't ruin US relationships with other countries.

Edited May 11, 2016 by Tryhard

[Anacybele]

If Trump thinks he's gonna be one to make America completely self-reliant

This isn't what I was saying. All I'm saying is that the US consumes way more from other nations than it produces, and Trump wants to balance this out a little more. He isn't going to actually make the US sustain itself, even though it could (for a time). Because yeah, resources are finite. Like I said, I'm not good at explaining things... So I'm just going to stop here. xP

Edited May 11, 2016 by Anacybele