(Spoilers) Story Portrayal of the Older Brothers

[Book of Ereshkigal]

That was proven to be false a long time ago.

...It... was? Whats the story behind that chapter then, anyway? I know Elise gets sick and Ryoma blocks the way, that much is obvious with just actions during the cutscene. I'm guessing Ryoma just wants to fight.

Edited August 18, 2015 by L95

[Thor Odinson]

What WAS debunked was Ryouma did not personally send anyone, or personally poison Elise just to hold the medicine hostage in exchange for Kamui. From my understanding of chapter 12 Nohr's text--and any actual Japanese speakers, please correct me if I'm wrong because I'm going off entirely Kanji since I can only read Chinese--Elise gets sick, so Kamui goes to this castle which the medicine can be found, but Ryouma also happens to be in that castle (not sure the reason here, or was it ever stated explicitly). Ryouma does ask Kamui to join him again, and tells Kamui he'll withdraw his troops if he'll come back to Hoshido, but Kamui doesn't so they fight, and Lazwald/Pieri comes to back Kamui up.

From my understanding of the scene (and again, any actual Japanese speakers please correct me if I'm wrong), Ryouma wasn't there specifically to withhold medicine from Elise, but since Kamui gave him a reason Ryouma could use to try to sway Kamui back without a fight, Ryouma gave a shot at that. He doesn't exactly have obligations to step aside for enemy royalty during wartime.

[Alazen]

And yeah, Hydra...somehow, I don't think that's what Mr. Kibayashi had in mind when he played Awakening and thought he could write a better story. At this point it's essentially "my dragon's cooler than yours!".

I say that Hydra is CONCEPTUALLY intriguing in that I have the suspicion he just might be a nod to how past FE games had dragons interfering with mankind. In practice, he comes off as an excuse to let Kamui marry both sets of siblings and have the warring kingdoms friend-up.

He could have been written as a shadier mirror to Naga, molding mankind for his aim. Dropping the golden ending he could have served as Kamui's leader in the 3rd Path.

[Thane]

I say that Hydra is CONCEPTUALLY intriguing in that I have the suspicion he just might be a nod to how past FE games had dragons interfering with mankind. In practice, he comes off as an excuse to let Kamui marry both sets of siblings and have the warring kingdoms friend-up.

He could have been written as a shadier mirror to Naga, molding mankind for his aim. Dropping the golden ending he could have served as Kamui's leader in the 3rd Path.

[spoiler=heavy endgame spoiler]I disagree strongly. This game would've been far, far better off without some kind of ultra powerful mastermind. In fact, I'd say that's one of the main causes of why the story is in the shape it is; Hydra's existence validates both sides coming together,. He and Garon are the only reasons there is a war in the first place, so all the tension and potential for drama, political, cultural and maybe even religious differences are thrown away to unite to stop the big bad. I'd say Hydra is essentially worse than Grima since the buildup is non-existent, and Kamui's relation to him is skimmed over entirely and hardly even commented on, just like with his relation to Azura.

Having a more complex storyline with someone like Hydra in it is that much harder to write.

Edit: take Ryouma and Xander shaking hands for instance. It's supposed to be this powerful moment of two princes allying and stopping the needless bloodshed - but why is the player supposed to care? There are two evil guys worth mentioning, and neither of them are Xander or Ryouma. None of them even wanted to fight in the first place! Hell, nobody on either side does! It's a pointless gesture because of what I wrote under the spoilers. There is zero tension here.

Hydra's inclusion doomed the premise from the onset.

Edited August 18, 2015 by Thane

[CyborgZeta]

The core problem with IK can be summed up with this.

Not to mention how it takes Garon being hilariously forthcoming about his motives to get Marx to turn.

[Alazen]

[spoiler=heavy endgame spoiler]I disagree strongly. This game would've been far, far better off without some kind of ultra powerful mastermind. In fact, I'd say that's one of the main causes of why the story is in the shape it is; Hydra's existence validates both sides coming together,. He and Garon are the only reasons there is a war in the first place, so all the tension and potential for drama, political, cultural and maybe even religious differences are thrown away to unite to stop the big bad. I'd say Hydra is essentially worse than Grima since the buildup is non-existent, and Kamui's relation to him is skimmed over entirely and hardly even commented on, just like with his relation to Azura.

Having a more complex storyline with someone like Hydra in it is that much harder to write.

Edit: take Ryouma and Xander shaking hands for instance. It's supposed to be this powerful moment of two princes allying and stopping the needless bloodshed - but why is the player supposed to care? There are two evil guys worth mentioning, and neither of them are Xander or Ryouma. None of them even wanted to fight in the first place! Hell, nobody on either side does! It's a pointless gesture because of what I wrote under the spoilers. There is zero tension here.

Hydra's inclusion doomed the premise from the onset.

I never said that Hydra should be the Ultimate Mastermind Behind It All. Even if you keep him as an otherworldly force behind the scenes you can write out Fake Garon, Hate Monster Takumi, etc. Make it apparent that the conflict can NOT just be dumped on Hydra, with both sides pursuing aims regardless of what Hydra does.

[JupiterKnight]

Hydra's existence isn't really that absurd, but being behind most of the events of the game definitely is though.

There were hints that something was going on early into the game including the mysterious assassins that everyone assumes are Nohrian that cause Mikotos death and the fact that Garon does mention his name as the Dragon he's communing with early into Conquest does show that he's there, but the extent of his role is never truly revealed until IK.

And you would expect an Invisible Dragon to be better at hiding himself than Grima.

[Twylis]

And you would expect an Invisible Dragon to be better at hiding himself than Grima.

I can't believe it took me until this setence to notice the parallel with Carl Sagan's The Dragon In My Garage.

Only instead of all the qualifiers (intangibility, levitation, heatlessness, etc.) to justify the inability to prove the dragon's existence to everyone, it instead goes with a Fight Club approach of simply not being allowed to talk about it

Fun!

oh yeah and the elder brothers are super lame

Xander's not entirely unrealistic, though; victims of childhood abuse are often inclined to side with and defend their abusive parents unconditionally, as they simply don't know anything else.

Assuming, of course, pre-slime Garon is abusive in the first place.

Edited August 19, 2015 by Twylis

[JupiterKnight]

He wasn't, but it is known that pretty much all the women Garon loved besides Shenmei were terrible abusive people. Even Elises mom, who while the least monstrous, didn't love her and called for Garon on her deathbed with Elise nearby.

Plus any form of abuse they might have suffered after Slime Garon took over.

Edited August 19, 2015 by JupiterKnight

[Thane]

I never said that Hydra should be the Ultimate Mastermind Behind It All. Even if you keep him as an otherworldly force behind the scenes you can write out Fake Garon, Hate Monster Takumi, etc. Make it apparent that the conflict can NOT just be dumped on Hydra, with both sides pursuing aims regardless of what Hydra does.

You said that Hydra makes sense conceptually, but I'm of the opinion that as long as he's in the game, the very premise of the game is inconsequential. The sides don't matter because there is one true path, one true ending and one true villain; there is no tension or complexity in the choice because you can just choose the correct ending without worrying about suffering any consequences.

It doesn't matter if the entire conflict can't "just be dumped" on Hydra since there will still be an evil dragon hell-bent on destroying the world, so the other two paths essentially mean that you fell for his tricks and are going to die regardless since he'll rise to destroy the world without you stopping him.

To put it simply, villains like Hydra do not fit in a character-driven story.

oh yeah and the elder brothers are super lame

Xander's not entirely unrealistic, though; victims of childhood abuse are often inclined to side with and defend their abusive parents unconditionally, as they simply don't know anything else.

Assuming, of course, pre-slime Garon is abusive in the first place.

No one has said that is unrealistic, what has been said is that the game never focuses on it or explains Xander's actions, thoughts or feelings at all, hence making his loyalty seem completely out of place since it goes against everything he believes in. Had the game even briefly touched the reason why he was devoted or what kind of father Garon was before he became flubber, his character would've been that much better off for it.

Edited August 19, 2015 by Thane

[Taka-kun]

No one has said that is unrealistic, what has been said is that the game never focuses on it or explains Xander's actions, thoughts or feelings at all, hence making his loyalty seem completely out of place since it goes against everything he believes in. Had the game even briefly touched about why he was devoted or what kind of father Garon was before he became flubber, his character would've been that much better off for it.

The game even goes out of the way of portraying Xander as loyal and Kamui as not, yet never touches upon it besides "that's how it is". It would have made a great theme if they had something along the line that, no matter what Garon, does he is still Xander's father and flesh and blood and play with that Kamui did betray THEIR flesh and blood (at least in the Nohr route).

[Alazen]

You said that Hydra makes sense conceptually, but I'm of the opinion that as long as he's in the game, the very premise of the game is inconsequential. The sides don't matter because there is one true path, one true ending and one true villain; there is no tension or complexity in the choice because you can just choose the correct ending without worrying about suffering any consequences.

Rewrite the Paths to be more ambiguous and not have any sort of Golden Ending. Make it so that too much blood has been shed, and so one or both of the kingdoms will be taken down.

It doesn't matter if the entire conflict can't "just be dumped" on Hydra since there will still be an evil dragon hell-bent on destroying the world, so the other two paths essentially mean that you fell for his tricks and are going to die regardless since he'll rise to destroy the world without you stopping him.

To put it simply, villains like Hydra do not fit in a character-driven story.

Who said Hydra would still be trying to destroy the world? Who said the Paths wouldn't all actually resolve the conflict instead of two of them leaving Hydra hanging around? Edited August 19, 2015 by Alazen

[Thane]

Rewrite the Paths to be more ambiguous and not have any sort of Golden Ending. Make it so that too much blood has been shed, and so one or both of the kingdoms will be taken down.

Who said Hydra would still be trying to destroy the world? Who said the Paths wouldn't all actually resolve the conflict instead of two of them leaving Hydra hanging around?

Then Hydra is a very different entity from the concept, which you said you liked. Perhaps it would be easier if you told me what exactly you want him to do and what validates his role in the game in the slightest, because I don't see it.

[Alazen]

Hydra is the dragon who begat the two royal lines, both getting power from this. He calls to mind Naga and other dragons who interfered with mankind's developmen.

I find this intriguing since he could have been framed as a sort of shadier mirror to Naga. Play his interference with mankind's development as a dragon version of the White Man's Burden. Let him have a cause with a higher selling slogan than destroy the world.

Edited August 19, 2015 by Alazen

[Thane]

Hydra is the dragon who begat the two royal lines, both getting power from this. He calls to mind Naga and other dragons who interfered with mankind's developmen.

I find this intriguing since he could have been framed as a sort of shadiee mirror to Naga. Play his interference with mankind's development as a dragon version of the White Man's Burden. Let him have a cause with a higher selling slogan than destroy the world.

But why? What would the point be? Why would any of this need to be in the story about two countries waging war and one guy getting stuck in-between? Why bother with Naga when it's an entirely different world?

[sperio]

Marx had so much potential to be an interesting character. I don't know what happened... It's almost like they wanted him to look really bad.

It would have been so much better to watch him struggle with his loyalty to Garon and his responsibility to his siblings and the people of Nohr. He'd have so much inner conflict for the game to explore and it would've been great to see him work through it, face his father, and take the throne. Maybe if Aqua hadn't been in the game, we could've had more focus on just Kamui and his/her siblings. That's what I would've preferred.

I'm just amazed by Nohr's story. I never let myself expect anything other than a decent story from Nohr, I didn't want to get my hopes up, but I never thought it would turn out bad. That they could ruin such an amazing premise just boggles my mind.

I completely agree! I'm shocked the story didn't go the way you described. I actually expected it to have an arc like that. It seemed like the obvious thing to do, and not very out of Fire Emblem's league story-wise.

Making Aqua the heroine of the story bungled both paths. She's not even essential to the premise, why is she a main character?

[sperio]

And yeah, Hydra...somehow, I don't think that's what Mr. Kibayashi had in mind when he played Awakening and thought he could write a better story. At this point it's essentially "my dragon's cooler than yours!".

I'm pretty sure Kibayashi's original draft/notes didn't have any dragons in it.

[JupiterKnight]

It probably did have a dragon in it somewhere, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was just in any backstory he might have wrote.

@Water Mage: I forgot to reply to earlier comment about that being false. Actually Kantopias summary for chapter 12 clearly states that he does try to get Kamui to return to Hoshido in exchange for medicine. That is blackmail.

What wasn't canon was the bit where he apparently says he doesn't care if Elise dies.

Edited August 20, 2015 by JupiterKnight