Why Persona 3's story doesn't do it for me

[Thane]

Hello everyone.

While I wait for a gas cylinder to arrive to my humble abode and is therefore unable to play, watch or listen to anything in case I miss the call, I thought to myself: "why not write something that tens of people might find mildly interesting in the meantime?", so here I am. Seriously though, is this a common thing abroad? I need to rely on giant tanks to get warm water?

If anyone clicked on my thread wondering what the hell Persona is, then it's a JRPG series set in the modern world where teenagers with attitude defeat vaguely evil forces by physical manifestations of their psyche while scoring hot anime studs on the side in the later installments. It's really one of those games you need to play/watch for yourself, but I'll say that the games are actually really good, particularly the latest installment, so if you have any intention of playing a very good JRPG series, leave this thread because it will contain spoilers.

On to the rant!

I've never particularly enjoyed the story of Persona 3 for various reasons. Don't get me wrong, the story is not downright bad, and I absolutely adore the premise, but the setting of a game is never enough to sell a good immersive experience; it's all in the execution, and that's where the game in question falls short.

First of all, I think it'd be a good idea to address the characters. I know this is a bit of an impopular opinion, but I simply don't feel anything for any of them, save maybe Aigis and Junpei. They feel like cardboard cutouts without any real depth, not to mention they hardly interact outside of Tartarus even though they live together; this lack of chemistry makes the character-driven aspect of the story so bland, and the fan service and typical anime moments - while usually bad on their own - get even worse due to the lack of connection between the cast. For instance, when they go to Fukushima, they still act in this stiff, stilted manner, and I immediately remember that I'm playing a game; I have no reason to believe any of them would want to hang out with each other in their spare time.

I'd also like to elaborate on a few characters' subplots.

Yukari's entire character arc is centered around her father's death, which is all well and good until she starts complaining about people with their normal lives and both parents alive. See, again, I could see her being upset about this but she's SURROUNDED by people in a worse spot than she is! The protagonist's parents both died - something Yukari admits is worse -, Shinjiro and Akihiko are both orphans and Ken's parents were murdered. Junpei's father is an abusive alcoholic and Mitsuru loses her father in the game as well. Instead of coming across as something personal, Yukari's arc feels like a joke.

Mitsuru is one of the blandest characters I've ever seen in a character-driven game. She's a straight-a student and heiress of a gigantic company. And of course beneath that cold facade lies a normal person who's...utterly boring and unbelievable. You're telling me she doesn't know how to eat hamburgers because she's rich? What the hell? Look, I've been to Japan, and you see hamburger joints almost as often as in the West; it's impossible for her to have missed what it is.

Ken becomes completely irrelevant after his plot is ended with Shinjiro (who tells him he's young and has his whole life ahead of him. Shinji, honey, you're 17)

And then we come to another big problem with the cast in this supposed character-driven game: you can only have support conversations with the girls and as a result get forced into multiple romantic relationships, while the guys get completely forgotten. How can you have a game that focuses on characters and their motivations yet leave half of them outside of a system that's designed to give them depth? Fortunately, this gets somewhat remedied in Persona 3 portable if you play as a girl (who incidentally has much more personality than her male counterpart), but the damage is already done for the male route.

Speaking of the social links, I'm unimpressed by the majority of them. Don't get me wrong, Hermit, Sun and Tower are really interesting in their own ways, but if you take the Magician which is only about a guy deluding himself his teacher likes him and the Chariot which only deals with a guy not wanting to operate his knee, you'll see that the three good ones are in the minority.

Moving on, while a much less important point, I also feel like the design of some characters is on the odd side as well. For a game that takes itself far too seriously, they don't mind including a dog, a kid and a hot robot girl - is there anyone else who's curious as to why they went for the teenage girl look? I know they explain the robots needed to see themselves as humans but...was it necessary for them to look like hot teenage girls?

As for the main plot, waiting a month for big monsters to appear feels like padding early on in the game. It was obvious that Tartarus wouldn't disappear with them, but that you needed to reach the top. The game is effectively on a stand still in the beginning, and you spend time recruiting, getting a few pieces of the puzzle and scoring. I suppose what Im trying to say is that the pacing feels off from the very start. For instance, as a player, thanks to the interface, you know about the monsters appearing every full moon, but the others don't - hell, that ghost kid even tells you that, yet the main character doesn't share that information for whatever reason.

And now for my biggest complaint about the story: the villains. I don't even know where to begin, and I'm frankly shocked more people don't seem to mention this when talking about this game. Shuji Ikutsuki being a nihilist who has been orchastrating everything makes no sense and isn't even worth being called a plot twist; there's absolutely nothing leading up to his sudden turn to the dark side - hell ,we hardly even get to know him as a person before he's unceremoniously killed off in a cutscene without any further impact on the story. He spouts nonsense about a prophecy and a king, but that is never explained; what prophecy? A prophecy for that man-made disaster that was created a few years ago?

Then we have Strega, a group of three people who enjoy having superpowers and supposedly don't care about dying, so they try to stop our heroes. I wonder though, why are these people a threat? They outright state having weaker powers and having a harder time controlling their personas and their leader is sick. Seriously, the most threatening and efficient villain in this entire game filled with hellish monsters and the inevitable doom of mankind is a sick, skinny guy running around without a shirt and shooting people with an ordinary gun.

Oh, and they also create a doomsday cult after Nyx is revealed and they survived certain death by the powers of editing. How do they create said cult? By making Takaya "famous on the internet" - no, really, that's the explanation for how they got so popular. That's not the only insult to the player's intelligence, as they want you to believe that almost everyone joins said cult because they're scared, which seems to go against the very main theme of enjoying the short time one has on earth.

Finally, there's Nyx, and there's really not much to say about him. The scary ghost kid shares voice actor with Ryouji in both Japanese and English, and since you get such little time with him, there's no time to get attached to his character and care about him being Nyx. I just raise my eyebrows at him not having another choice but to destroy humanity for whatever reason, but we're supposed to just accept that. It's just yet another villain out to kill off the human race, and while they try for a more human approach unlike many other villains with similar objectives, it falls short.

That is, in short, some of my major complaints about Persona 3. I'm very curious to hear what you have to say about all of this, and please for the love of god don't just say "well Persona 4 is worse", because that adds nothing to the discussion. I might write a thread about why I like Persona 4 someday where you can complain about it all you want, but for now, let's focus on this game.

[DodgeDusk]

Regarding characters: I'll definitely admit some characters get treated far better than others when it comes to development and relevance; Ken, as you said, sort of peters off once Kala-Nemi becomes his persona, and Fuuka as a whole is a bit iffy. I don't personally agree with your opinion on Yukari, though--I think she is, alongside Junpei and Aigis, a really good character. Yukari's whole character arc has her dealing with her father's death (and later on his connection to the Shadows). Yes, it's easy to say her problem isn't as big as, say, Ken's, or Shinjiro's and Akihiko's, but I think the fact her father has this said connection to the Shadows sort of makes up for it. Her character development as a whole (this includes The Answer--I couldn't tell from the OP if you're including that or not) I think is really good, too. I also like the divide between Juniors and Seniors, and how for an incredibly long time throughout the game there's almost this hierarchy between the two groups (again, I think Ken falls out of place here. I think his oddball status is part of why some people like him? I don't really know). I'll admit the scene at Fukushima is probably a touch forced, but I've always seen it as Mitsuru allowing SEES to have some time off, as well as an excuse to see her own father. And speaking of Mitsuru: she's not one of my favourite characters in the game, but I really do like how powerful she comes across in the game. I mean, I think everyone--even Shinjiro--doesn't want to be on the receiving end of her "execution", as she puts it. The villains? I've always wanted to question this. Who exactly is the main villain? Nyx? Erebus? Strega/Takaya? Itsuki? Loads of people would shoot Nyx immediately, but Itsuki is arguably the orchestrator to everything that transpires in the game. Strega and Erebus are essentially the catalysts to Nyx's destruction. So I really don't know how to answer it

Regarding plot: I like the recurring theme or death and how it effects all of the main characters in the game; and the last month is incredibly satisfying. But I'll be the first to admit the pacing for the game is pretty awful. The plot as a whole is pretty stagnant until everyone's Ultimate Personas come into play, and even then it doesn't advance too much. Not until January begins, anyway. Strega'ss whole cult thing is pretty eh, I'll admit. It sort of comes out of nowhere, and it's not all that important to the plot as whole

Regarding Social Links: From the top of my head I think SLs are one of two things I'll say Persona 4 did better than Persona 3, the other being plot twists. The quality of writing overall isn't as good as P4's, and the characters sort of suffer for that. Yeah, there's really good ones. But the bad ones skewer the balance too much out of whack, in my opinion. And the male party members not having SLs is something I don't really have an opinion on. Something to do with MC's "personality", maybe?

I can see where you're coming from in the OP, and I can certainly understand and respect what you're saying. These are just my opinions, though. If it changes something for you, great; if not, then that's okay too. I don't think there's a right or wrong answer in regards to the OP, just opinions!

[Water Mage]

Though Persona 3 is one of my favorite games, I have to agree with you on a lot things.

One the things I disliked in Persona 3 is how you are forced to cheat the girls you date, if you want all social links. It made me feel dirty.

And maybe this is just me, but the romantic relationships on the female side felt more genuine, especially Akihiko and Shinjiro.

Another thing that bothered me, is how distant the party is, even thought they all live in the same place, which is ironic you compare them to the Persona 4 cast, who all live in different places, and yet they are all extremely close.

I actually like Yukari, because she actually acknowledge the fact that they are distant and tries to solve it.

[Thane]

Regarding characters: I'll definitely admit some characters get treated far better than others when it comes to development and relevance; Ken, as you said, sort of peters off once Kala-Nemi becomes his persona, and Fuuka as a whole is a bit iffy. I don't personally agree with your opinion on Yukari, though--I think she is, alongside Junpei and Aigis, a really good character. Yukari's whole character arc has her dealing with her father's death (and later on his connection to the Shadows). Yes, it's easy to say her problem isn't as big as, say, Ken's, or Shinjiro's and Akihiko's, but I think the fact her father has this said connection to the Shadows sort of makes up for it. Her character development as a whole (this includes The Answer--I couldn't tell from the OP if you're including that or not) I think is really good, too. I also like the divide between Juniors and Seniors, and how for an incredibly long time throughout the game there's almost this hierarchy between the two groups (again, I think Ken falls out of place here. I think his oddball status is part of why some people like him? I don't really know). I'll admit the scene at Fukushima is probably a touch forced, but I've always seen it as Mitsuru allowing SEES to have some time off, as well as an excuse to see her own father. And speaking of Mitsuru: she's not one of my favourite characters in the game, but I really do like how powerful she comes across in the game. I mean, I think everyone--even Shinjiro--doesn't want to be on the receiving end of her "execution", as she puts it. The villains? I've always wanted to question this. Who exactly is the main villain? Nyx? Erebus? Strega/Takaya? Itsuki? Loads of people would shoot Nyx immediately, but Itsuki is arguably the orchestrator to everything that transpires in the game. Strega and Erebus are essentially the catalysts to Nyx's destruction. So I really don't know how to answer it

Regarding plot: I like the recurring theme or death and how it effects all of the main characters in the game; and the last month is incredibly satisfying. But I'll be the first to admit the pacing for the game is pretty awful. The plot as a whole is pretty stagnant until everyone's Ultimate Personas come into play, and even then it doesn't advance too much. Not until January begins, anyway. Strega'ss whole cult thing is pretty eh, I'll admit. It sort of comes out of nowhere, and it's not all that important to the plot as whole

Regarding Social Links: From the top of my head I think SLs are one of two things I'll say Persona 4 did better than Persona 3, the other being plot twists. The quality of writing overall isn't as good as P4's, and the characters sort of suffer for that. Yeah, there's really good ones. But the bad ones skewer the balance too much out of whack, in my opinion. And the male party members not having SLs is something I don't really have an opinion on. Something to do with MC's "personality", maybe?

I can see where you're coming from in the OP, and I can certainly understand and respect what you're saying. These are just my opinions, though. If it changes something for you, great; if not, then that's okay too. I don't think there's a right or wrong answer in regards to the OP, just opinions!

Hey man, opinions are opinions; I think it's interesting that so many people praise Persona 3's story while I just can't see it. I'm glad people like you are so open for discussion!

As for main villain though, it's Nyx without a doubt. Ikutsuki's involvement is superfluous once you consider that there's no way in hell SEES wouldn't have tried stopping a rampaging monster outside of Tartarus; do you think Akihiko would just be like "meh, screw it, someone else will get it"? I'd even argue that someone like Ikutsuki who dies in a cutscene without any of his motivations explained or explored CAN'T be the main villain by default in a game like this.

Yes, Yukari's subplot is connected to the shadows, but the way her characte arc unfolds is the problem. What do you think that group who all have problems with their parents or lack thereof would say if she started complaining about everyone else having both parents alive, and being mad at her mother for how she goes about dealing with her sorrow? She comes across as incredibly selfish and unsympathetic, and that extends to the Answer, too.

I'd also mention that the divide between seniors and underclassmen is not done well at all. I can see that being an interesting theme of the game, but it's not explored at all and instead just separates the characters and keeps them from interacting, something the game definitely didn't need for previously explained reasons.

And if there's one thing both Persona 3 and 4 do poorly, it's the silent protagonist. In the third game you're forced into relationships and you're called the leader of the group even though you're not allowed to go without your senpai backing you up, which makes them the de facto leaders, and both games deal with a far too large dose of player worship.

Though Persona 3 is one of my favorite games, I have to agree with you on a lot things.

One the things I disliked in Persona 3 is how you are forced to cheat the girls you date, if you want all social links. It made me feel dirty.

And maybe this is just me, but the romantic relationships on the female side felt more genuine, especially Akihiko and Shinjiro.

Another thing that bothered me, is how distant the party is, even thought they all live in the same place, which is ironic you compare them to the Persona 4 cast, who all live in different places, and yet they are all extremely close.

I actually like Yukari, because she actually acknowledge the fact that they are distant and tries to solve it.

The female route is much better. Shinjiro and Akihiko get fleshed out, Junpei gets A LOT more depth which the awful subplot with Chidori didn't grand him and the female cast gets a chance of standing out more without the game going "you want to bang them, don't you?" every other social link.

As for the romance, let's be honest, it's not good in either the third or the fourth game. You awkwardly stand there while they monologue about their problems and then you get the option to score with them, and you can get more than one girlfriend at the same time without any consequence (yes yes, Valentine's day in Golden, but that's hardly enough. I'll come back to this when I write about Persona 4, which I consider superior in most regards).

[Water Mage]

Maybe because it was written after the original game, but the female storyline is indeed better than the male one in Persona 3.

And while there player worship in both games, I feel that it's better in P4 than P3, not because there is less player worship in P4( in fact I believe there is more) but because I feel that the hero P4 earned some of the praise he got, while P3 hero just simply stood there doimg nothing and looking bored and yet they all love him.

Yes, I know they are all silent protagonists, but it felt to me that P4 hero actually had a bit of personality compared to the P3 hero.

[DodgeDusk]

Hey man, opinions are opinions; I think it's interesting that so many people praise Persona 3's story while I just can't see it. I'm glad people like you are so open for discussion!

As for main villain though, it's Nyx without a doubt. Ikutsuki's involvement is superfluous once you consider that there's no way in hell SEES wouldn't have tried stopping a rampaging monster outside of Tartarus; do you think Akihiko would just be like "meh, screw it, someone else will get it"? I'd even argue that someone like Ikutsuki who dies in a cutscene without any of his motivations explained or explored CAN'T be the main villain by default in a game like this.

Yes, Yukari's subplot is connected to the shadows, but the way her characte arc unfolds is the problem. What do you think that group who all have problems with their parents or lack thereof would say if she started complaining about everyone else having both parents alive, and being mad at her mother for how she goes about dealing with her sorrow? She comes across as incredibly selfish and unsympathetic, and that extends to the Answer, too.

I'd also mention that the divide between seniors and underclassmen is not done well at all. I can see that being an interesting theme of the game, but it's not explored at all and instead just separates the characters and keeps them from interacting, something the game definitely didn't need for previously explained reasons.

As for the romance, let's be honest, it's not good in either the third or the fourth game. You awkwardly stand there while they monologue about their problems and then you get the option to score with them, and you can get more than one girlfriend at the same time without any consequence (yes yes, Valentine's day in Golden, but that's hardly enough. I'll come back to this when I write about Persona 4, which I consider superior in most regards).

Aye, I can see that line of reasoning as to why Ikusuki (can't believe I said Itsuki first, haha) can't be the main villain. But I don't know, I think he thought The Fall was mankind's salvation. When the Twelve Arcanas fused together to make Nyx's Avatar/Ryoji, his goal was complete. He probably thought he didn't have a reason to live any more, so he committed suicide. I recall he was shot in that cutscene too, right? That could be why. That doesn't explain why he does what he does, but something to note is his nihilism is shared with Mitsuru's grandfather, who also worked on the Shadow project. Not everyone who worked on the project became a nihilist--Yukari's father is an example of this--but it's still a little interesting something

This is true--Yukari is a bit selfish and difficult to deal with as a person. She's this way because of her father's death, her mother's situation, and how she feels about the Dark Hour--this all chains her back, and she keeps her inner feelings locked away, only telling them to the MC at the start of the game because both of them have lost a parent/parents, and later on Fuuka. Her jealously is also shown in The Answer, when Aigis gets the power of the Wild Card. Persona Q also states she likes reading incestuous fan-fiction. All these things just make her a touch more human and, in a way, relatable. Yukari's a bitch, but she has her reasons as to why she's a bitch. She's also quite friendly with Fuuka, so she has that going for her too

The divide between the classes I thought was decently done; Akihiko and Mitsuru don't want to become friends with the Juniors--they just want their power of Persona in order to deal with the Shadows. This later on changes near the end of the game, but I thought for the most part it was decently executed. Again, the beach scene in Fukushima is a bit forced, but I see that as an outliner

The MC of Persona 3 is the combat leader of SEES, not the actual leader of SEES (this goes to Mitsuru and I guess Ikutsuki, when he's around). The two of them are basically the strategist, while the MC is the tactician. I do with Persona 3 had the option of platonic female relationships, however. I don't want to cheat on girls!

Edited January 30, 2016 by DodgeDusk

[KeyPurple]

Persona 3 is a game that talks a lot about death, after facing every boss and social link in the game the player should understand that "they are mortal"," one day they will die"... They will accept death

So not for the real plot, but for what the game try to teach you is what makes persona 3 story amazing.

[Radiant head]

Yes, I know they are all silent protagonists, but it felt to me that P4 hero actually had a bit of personality compared to the P3 hero.

I dunno, I thought the P3MC was clearly defined as a creepy, apathetic nihilist, while the P4MC was like a generic shounen protagonist. Though I did like how they gave the latter some funny, colorful dialogue options.

I'll say the Social Links are mostly terrible in this game, if they count as story. Which really sucks, because this is the only game where there's a real incentive to do a max s.link run to unlock Telos. P4 did it right by having all the party members available as social links. I guess they didn't want Junpei to resolve his one-sided dick measuring contest with the P3MC, but it would have been nice to flesh him out for the Magician S.Link instead of the godawful social link we had to do instead.

[Water Mage]

I dunno, I thought the P3MC was clearly defined as a creepy, apathetic nihilist, while the P4MC was like a generic shounen protagonist. Though I did like how they gave the latter some funny, colorful dialogue options.

I'll say the Social Links are mostly terrible in this game, if they count as story. Which really sucks, because this is the only game where there's a real incentive to do a max s.link run to unlock Telos. P4 did it right by having all the party members available as social links. I guess they didn't want Junpei to resolve his one-sided dick measuring contest with the P3MC, but it would have been nice to flesh him out for the Magician S.Link instead of the godawful social link we had to do instead.

I won't deny that the P3 hero seemed like a creepy, apathetic nihilist, but that being the creators's intention or not, I'm not sure.

Besides, it made more sense for people to look up the P4 hero, since he was more like a generic shounen hero, but in P3, it was honestly weird having people admire a guy who looked liked he didn't care about thing.

This may sound weird, but the ending of P3 did not fit the hero, or rather the hero was not fit for the ending.

Does that makes sense? It sounds a bit weird, I know, but I couldn't find a better way to put it.

[Radiant head]

I mean I assume that was exactly the intent, given his backstory, unfazed body language, etc.

I agree though the ending was a pretty poor fit for the story. They were trying too hard to do something that feels dramatic and poignant, but it doesn't feel that way at all, and if anything makes the themes feel even more confusing. And the Answer was just all around bad in following it up.

[Thane]

Aye, I can see that line of reasoning as to why Ikusuki (can't believe I said Itsuki first, haha) can't be the main villain. But I don't know, I think he thought The Fall was mankind's salvation. When the Twelve Arcanas fused together to make Nyx's Avatar/Ryoji, his goal was complete. He probably thought he didn't have a reason to live any more, so he committed suicide. I recall he was shot in that cutscene too, right? That could be why. That doesn't explain why he does what he does, but something to note is his nihilism is shared with Mitsuru's grandfather, who also worked on the Shadow project. Not everyone who worked on the project became a nihilist--Yukari's father is an example of this--but it's still a little interesting something

This is true--Yukari is a bit selfish and difficult to deal with as a person. She's this way because of her father's death, her mother's situation, and how she feels about the Dark Hour--this all chains her back, and she keeps her inner feelings locked away, only telling them to the MC at the start of the game because both of them have lost a parent/parents, and later on Fuuka. Her jealously is also shown in The Answer, when Aigis gets the power of the Wild Card. Persona Q also states she likes reading incestuous fan-fiction. All these things just make her a touch more human and, in a way, relatable. Yukari's a bitch, but she has her reasons as to why she's a bitch. She's also quite friendly with Fuuka, so she has that going for her too

The divide between the classes I thought was decently done; Akihiko and Mitsuru don't want to become friends with the Juniors--they just want their power of Persona in order to deal with the Shadows. This later on changes near the end of the game, but I thought for the most part it was decently executed. Again, the beach scene in Fukushima is a bit forced, but I see that as an outliner

The MC of Persona 3 is the combat leader of SEES, not the actual leader of SEES (this goes to Mitsuru and I guess Ikutsuki, when he's around). The two of them are basically the strategist, while the MC is the tactician. I do with Persona 3 had the option of platonic female relationships, however. I don't want to cheat on girls!

It's not a little something though, it's a slapped on excuse of a plot twist. I consider Ikutsuki's betrayal one of the worst story moments in all of gaming simply for how out of the blue it is and just how unimportant in the grand scheme of things, since the SEES wouldn't have ignored a monster shadow anyway; hell, they even found the first one themselves.

You can't take a game that came out eight years later and apply it to a character in the older game, and I'm thankful for that, since the Persona Arena games have awful storylines. Don't get me wrong though, I don't want all the characters to be a paragon of good; Yukari being a bit selfish and cold is fine, but in the context of the game, her complaints seem trivial at best.

I suppose it's a question of preference; I could see a bit of a divide being a good thing, but in the current state it just keeps the characters from interacting normally, and that affects the characterization of the protagonists.

That makes no real sense though. Once you have Fuuka, you should be able to go whenever. You're a leader in name only otherwise.

By the way, if you are from Wales, do you speak Welsh?

Maybe because it was written after the original game, but the female storyline is indeed better than the male one in Persona 3.

And while there player worship in both games, I feel that it's better in P4 than P3, not because there is less player worship in P4( in fact I believe there is more) but because I feel that the hero P4 earned some of the praise he got, while P3 hero just simply stood there doimg nothing and looking bored and yet they all love him.

Yes, I know they are all silent protagonists, but it felt to me that P4 hero actually had a bit of personality compared to the P3 hero.

It is true that Yu make a lot more sense than Minato, since the former is a lot more...I don't know, active? And when the other characters describe him, it's usually in a positive way, unlike Minato, whom people often complain about for being so broody. I still have a hard time liking most silent protagonists though, and Yu is definitely not one done particularly well, but I agree that he's better than Minato.

By the way, did you guys know that Noire in Awakening is voiced by Michelle Ruff, who's also the actress of Yukari? They make a reference to Persona 3 when Noire is the supporting character and she says "Gasp! The enemy!" which is something Fuuka says A LOT.

[Samias]

The Noire-Fuuka connection is pretty funny actually. I never noticed.

I agree with P3's male protagonist being too distant and apathetic to feel a connection with. The rest of the characters are held an arm's length away and it's impossible to feel SEES is a cohesive organization. It's part of the point but the MC dating Yukari, Mitsuru and Fuuka still doesn't make me feel close to them. Ikutsuki's betrayal comes out of left field except not really because by then you have reasonable doubt about trusting him. They want Yukari and Mitsuru to have something in common after Yukari shuts herself out from other people but once Ikutsuki pulls the trigger, he's not really important to the story anymore and they kill him off with relatively little fanfare. Compared to Persona 4, P3 doesn't really come together in the end as far as understanding the goal of the human antagonists. It actually makes me mad that P3P's female route is considered non-canon "what if" considering that the social links are way more fleshed out and the female MC is much more believable as someone who can draw everyone together as a team.

Ignoring the inclusion of Marie in The Golden, P4 is a lot more cohesive. It has an equal amount of pacing issues to P3 as the game is forced to follow a schedule, but your party members at least aren't trying to constantly one-up each other with their problems, their attitudes are more diverse and easy to relate to, and while they resolve their plotline through the story, you get to dive in deeper with their social links whereas in P3, the male protagonist doesn't really solve Yukari or Mitsuru's higher level problems, and Fuuka is treated as a bit of an outsider.

Edited January 30, 2016 by Samias

[Ebony]

I kinda felt a connection with Minato if only because I feel as broody and anti social as he does when it comes to reality haha oh god ;w;

Though Persona 3 is one of my favorite games, I have to agree with you on a lot things.
One the things I disliked in Persona 3 is how you are forced to cheat the girls you date, if you want all social links. It made me feel dirty.
And maybe this is just me, but the romantic relationships on the female side felt more genuine, especially Akihiko and Shinjiro.
Another thing that bothered me, is how distant the party is, even thought they all live in the same place, which is ironic you compare them to the Persona 4 cast, who all live in different places, and yet they are all extremely close.
I actually like Yukari, because she actually acknowledge the fact that they are distant and tries to solve it.

holy hell yeah

Minako had some really good S. Links. Hell, I even liked Ken's. I didn't hate him in the game, but his social link was... surprisingly sweet imo.

Plus you get to hang out with best Persona mascot by far. Another point for Minako.

[RedRob]

Moving on, while a much less important point, I also feel like the design of some characters is on the odd side as well. For a game that takes itself far too seriously, they don't mind including a dog, a kid and a hot robot girl - is there anyone else who's curious as to why they went for the teenage girl look? I know they explain the robots needed to see themselves as humans but...was it necessary for them to look like hot teenage girls?

The only explanation I can think of is that one, it's less off putting than working with a ugly one, and two, if you were building a human robot, would you build an ugly one or a beautiful one? Though are annoyed about them being hot, or about them being girls? Because I can see were you're coming from with the latter.

Also, I found an interesting perspective on the differences between how P3 and P4 did their SL. Some had the same problems you had with P3's, with you being unable to interact with them, while others disliked P4's approach, claiming the any character development was locked to the SL, as they could be done whenever, forcing them to act the same all the way through with the main story.

A passage from Tvtropes explains this better than I do,

"Social Links with party members wound up being surprisingly divisive. On one hand, the majority of players appreciate the fact they can choose to spend more time with their favorite characters and (in theory) get more Character Development. On the other hand, detractors claim that it results in characters' development being at best stuck to the Social Link and at worst superficial and flat, as any development has to be able to fit in at any point in the game's story, leading to Status Quo Is God. There is very little middle ground. "

I don't agree or disagree with any views expressed in the passage, but I thought this would be a point of debate that would contribute to the thread.

[Thane]

The Noire-Fuuka connection is pretty funny actually. I never noticed.

I agree with P3's male protagonist being too distant and apathetic to feel a connection with. The rest of the characters are held an arm's length away and it's impossible to feel SEES is a cohesive organization. It's part of the point but the MC dating Yukari, Mitsuru and Fuuka still doesn't make me feel close to them. Ikutsuki's betrayal comes out of left field except not really because by then you have reasonable doubt about trusting him. They want Yukari and Mitsuru to have something in common after Yukari shuts herself out from other people but once Ikutsuki pulls the trigger, he's not really important to the story anymore and they kill him off with relatively little fanfare. Compared to Persona 4, P3 doesn't really come together in the end as far as understanding the goal of the human antagonists. It actually makes me mad that P3P's female route is considered non-canon "what if" considering that the social links are way more fleshed out and the female MC is much more believable as someone who can draw everyone together as a team.

Ignoring the inclusion of Marie in The Golden, P4 is a lot more cohesive. It has an equal amount of pacing issues to P3 as the game is forced to follow a schedule, but your party members at least aren't trying to constantly one-up each other with their problems, their attitudes are more diverse and easy to relate to, and while they resolve their plotline through the story, you get to dive in deeper with their social links whereas in P3, the male protagonist doesn't really solve Yukari or Mitsuru's higher level problems, and Fuuka is treated as a bit of an outsider.

Your art is totes adorbs

I can't agree with you on Persona 4 having as many pacing issues because the very nature of the scheduled events is relevant to the plot and is something that is later resolved; in Persona 3, it's an artificial limit placed on your progression in the very beginning of the game. Why do they appear one or two at a time during the full moon?

What I can agree with is your anger at Minako being considered non-canon when, by all accounts, her personal story is far more emotional and engaging. Not to mention she introduces Theodore, but I suppose that's a small detail in the grand scheme of things.

Marie? Who's that? I don't remember anyone in Golden named Marie, and neither do you.

The only explanation I can think of is that one, it's less off putting than working with a ugly one, and two, if you were building a human robot, would you build an ugly one or a beautiful one? Though are annoyed about them being hot, or about them being girls? Because I can see were you're coming from with the latter.

Also, I found an interesting perspective on the differences between how P3 and P4 did their SL. Some had the same problems you had with P3's, with you being unable to interact with them, while others disliked P4's approach, claiming the any character development was locked to the SL, as they could be done whenever, forcing them to act the same all the way through with the main story.

A passage from Tvtropes explains this better than I do,

"Social Links with party members wound up being surprisingly divisive. On one hand, the majority of players appreciate the fact they can choose to spend more time with their favorite characters and (in theory) get more Character Development. On the other hand, detractors claim that it results in characters' development being at best stuck to the Social Link and at worst superficial and flat, as any development has to be able to fit in at any point in the game's story, leading to Status Quo Is God. There is very little middle ground. "

I don't agree or disagree with any views expressed in the passage, but I thought this would be a point of debate that would contribute to the thread.

Well, it was more the fact that they were just hot teenage girls more than anything. Again, I can understand making them both women and good-looking, there's nothing wrong with that, it's just that the teenage look makes me think the scientists watched too much anime and were perverts. But like I said, it was a minor, almost not serious, complaint, but it DOES clash with the seriousness the game is trying to convey.

I have definitely thought about that, and it's right in many ways. However, I think it works since the game takes its time to develop the character arcs, rather than doing a poor job of hamfisting development in the main story à la Junpei and Chidori.

[RedRob]

Part of me wonders if that why P4 was so lighthearted. They couldn't stick any serious stuff like character development into the main story, so they relied on gags more often instead. Considering some of the "gags" (Amagi inn incident....), I wonder if P3's approach wasn't better.

Though P3P showed that they could do both, so it's more of them getting the hang of it over time.

Also, from a certain POV, the less serious stuff could fit with P3's theme of enjoying what time you have. I mean, would you rather have fun with what remains of your life, or spend all of it working or something. Plus, the characters are teens, doesn't surprise me they had have some trouble taking stuff seriously, might even be escapism for them. Though I think some of it, like the hotsprings, could be taken out.

Edited January 31, 2016 by RedRob

[Radiant head]

Marie? Who's that? I don't remember anyone in Golden named Marie, and neither do you.

As far as I'm concerned, P4MC was wondering why he doesn't have a tsundre fetish in his female social links, so he started hallucinating.

[DodgeDusk]

It's not a little something though, it's a slapped on excuse of a plot twist. I consider Ikutsuki's betrayal one of the worst story moments in all of gaming simply for how out of the blue it is and just how unimportant in the grand scheme of things, since the SEES wouldn't have ignored a monster shadow anyway; hell, they even found the first one themselves.

You can't take a game that came out eight years later and apply it to a character in the older game, and I'm thankful for that, since the Persona Arena games have awful storylines. Don't get me wrong though, I don't want all the characters to be a paragon of good; Yukari being a bit selfish and cold is fine, but in the context of the game, her complaints seem trivial at best.

I suppose it's a question of preference; I could see a bit of a divide being a good thing, but in the current state it just keeps the characters from interacting normally, and that affects the characterization of the protagonists.

That makes no real sense though. Once you have Fuuka, you should be able to go whenever. You're a leader in name only otherwise.

By the way, if you are from Wales, do you speak Welsh?

The twist does come around unexpectedly, I'll admit. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree when it comes to this. It could have been handled better, though

Nah, I understand that. I guess I should have put the detail from Persona Q in brackets/parenthesis, and pointed out what you said in my previous post. My mistake. And yeah, I'm incredibly glad a lot of the characterisation from the Arena games weren't in the main games--Yukari is definitely someone who got the bad end of the stick. I'll agree that, compared to the other members of the cast, Yukari's complaints aren't as big (except for her feeling guilty due to her father being part of the experiment; but Mitsuru has the same thing going for her, if not more so), but I still think they're important to her and the plot nonetheless, and it explores her character a bit. Which is something I like

That's a fair point. Again, I think it was handled well, and the formal relationship everyone had with each other worked. They wouldn't have eventually ended up being friends if it wasn't for the power of Persona, and the game shows that well, in my opinion. It's sort of why I dislike the majority of Persona 4's cast (though that's a topic for another discussion)

Go when whenever? I'm mentally exhausted as of writing this post, so I'm sorry if I missed something obvious

I do not, sorry to disappoint! Where I'm from, Welsh is a mandatory lesson from the ages of 10-16. I was exempt from the lessons due to having Speech and Language problems (I still do, though it's not as bad). When I was 15 I was given the choice to opt into the lessons, but I refused, since I personally don't have a reason to know it right now--everyone's first language here is English

Edited January 31, 2016 by DodgeDusk

[Raybrand]

I dont have a lot to say in the matter but I thought I might throw my opinion in the pool. I love Persona 3, even though I hate turn based rpg games.

It has a somewhat depressing setting, the bad guys, the cult and people's desire for the world to end but I think thats what makes the message the main characters are trying to deliver stronger, because its easy to say live life to the fullest when its all sunshine and rainbows.

I do like the characters in your group, each one adds a different voice and personality to the story and group. Mitsuru is the calm, composed and powerful leader, maybe a little plain but she fits her role perfectly, it explains that because she is part of a powerful family she has to be a certain calibre of person. Akihiko is dependable I just feel somewhat better when hes in my team, I understand that Yukari can be selfish at times when it comes to her history and is hesitant when it comes fighting shadows but that helped immerse me because she is a teen she is allowed to act out, Junpei I liked his role of being the main guys best friend he really pulled me into caring about what happens outside the dark hour and I liked his struggle to fight his insecurity about being useless to the group, (I find that this subject isn't used enough in anime because its usually true i.e. a lot of animes theres only a couple of useful characters and everyone else is powerless in comparison). (the rest of the characters on your team aside from Aigis I didnt really care for). Some of the social links I really liked.

I like to think that because of all the danger and battles they faced together is why they are a tight click in school and outside of the dark hour.

I do like how the you fit in the team as well, you dont start out being the alpha of the group but they recognise that you have that x factor that makes you special and gives you that talent to wield personas so well. That is the same in persona 4 but since persona 4 has a lot more group discussions and cut scenes it only points out further that your character doesnt talk, leaving Daichi to lead the strategy meeting.

I do remember thinking that some plot points where some plot points that just happened and there should have been a proper cut scene discussing it.

I think my only major problem with the story is that

when the group finds out that the protagonist is alive and acting as a barrier to keep the world safe, they just accepted that and decided the best they can do is move on with their lives, I thought they could at least try or leave an open ending