Pokemon Sun and Moon General Discussion: Official Site updated to include every new 'mon

[Emerson]

Ahem, I think we may be straying off topic again...

So I guess I can ask another question;

How many people here believe in the Alchemy theory?

Just the base part, not the whole thing Gnoggin went off onto.

I do myself. It's pretty clear.

Edited September 25, 2016 by TrueEm

[Acacia Sgt]

I've always thought they were weak to Ice due to equating dragons with reptiles, and those can't stand the cold.

Or something like that.

[Leona]

Dragonair is my favorite Pokémon

Hi new best friend

[Thane]

So I guess I can ask another question;

How many people here believe in the Alchemy theory?

Just the base part, not the whole thing Gnoggin went off onto, even if some of it was pretty well made.

I do myself. It's pretty clear.

I think the "lion eating the sun" and Type: Null all but sealed alchemy at least being a somewhat relevant theme. Sure, Norse mythology was used for the Kalos trio and that wasn't too prevalent, but the story direction in Sun & Moon seems completely different. If alchemy is indeed important in the upcoming games, then it's not a stretch to imagine the Ultra Beasts being related to it as well.

Hi new best friend

Ah, another person with excellent tastes, I see. Splendid, I say!

[Ebony]

So I guess I can ask another question;

How many people here believe in the Alchemy theory?

Just the base part, not the whole thing Gnoggin went off onto, even if some of it was pretty well made.

I do myself. It's pretty clear.

You mean there are people who don't believe in it?

[Magical Glace]

I always figured Ice beat dragon because reptiles are cold-blooded.

[saisymbolic]

You mean there are people who don't believe in it?

Pretty much.

As soon as I saw Type: Null, my first reaction was, "Please not another Nina Tucker."

[Honey Bunny]

You mean there are people who don't believe in it?

Basically this. Everybody I know is definitely on board with the theory. Even if I don't buy all of the mythology stuff, alchemy has basically become undeniable. Thinking on it, I wonder if that might be the motivation of team Aether. Considering Lycanroc's description says that the different forms are due to the legendaries maybe Aether is trying to summon the legendaries to study them. Probably doing some alchemy stuff to make the summoning work, or maybe just flat out using alchemy to study the effects.

[Emerson]

You mean there are people who don't believe in it?

To be honest, that's what I was curious about.

[The DanMan]

You mean there are people who don't believe in it?

EDIT: I am an idiot who lacks basic reading comprehension.

Edited September 25, 2016 by The DanMan

[Emerson]

If by "alchemy theory" you mean that there will be alchemic themes within the games' plot, then certainly.

If by "alchemy theory" you mean Gnoggin's hyper-convoluted theory where he describes the series in the sales department as "failing" (no more than Mario or LoZ) and thinks that there's a massive multi-gen conspiracy pointing towards a new Gen 1 on the NX, then there's not a fart's chance in the wind I believe that yet.

How many people here believe in the Alchemy theory?

Just the base part, not the whole thing Gnoggin went off onto.

[The DanMan]

*quotes that don't quote*

...Oops. Didn't see the original post- just Ebony's.

Edited September 25, 2016 by The DanMan

[Quintessence]

Come on guys, fairies and dragons are a given. Dragons are these mythical beings, whom I depict as evil, and fairies are, like, their counterpart: mystical and most likely helping the good.

... there are always exceptions to the norm...

I share the same thoughts as Shuuda. To me, Ghost and Dragons were pretty exclusive typings, specially Dragon, a typing only the Elite Four had, and GF basically tells you it is the supreme typing, by having access to a bunch of moves and being resistant to the common elemmental typing: Fire, Water, Grass and Electric. These resistances, imo, derivate from the idea of making Dragon type the supreme type.

Also, screw Alchemy and theories!!

Edit: actually I like alchemy but not convoluted theories ~

Edited September 25, 2016 by Quintessence

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Yeah the design on Dragon is basically based around "Normal Typing who resists 3 basic elemental type"

Also funny enough, despite the narrative, Ghost(who have THE most crippling weakness in the game) and Dragon is below average as a typing. Its garden variety typing like Water, Ground, and Flying that is the real supreme type.Flying was so broken, even Gamefreak realized that the best decision about it is just to make it don't exist. They broke that unwritten rule two times and it was a disaster

[Emerson]

Flying was so broken, even Gamefreak realized that the best decision about it is just to make it don't exist. They broke that unwritten rule two times and it was a disaster

Could you expand on this? And generally that whole post I guess?

Edited September 26, 2016 by TrueEm

[Magical Glace]

I just viewed the Alchemy thing as a symbolism choice. Pokémon isn't exactly unfamiliar with random symbols that may or may not mean anything.

[saisymbolic]

I thought Psychic type used to be broken in Gen I. That's why they added Dark and Steel in Gen II, right?

[Nym]

I thought Psychic type used to be broken in Gen I. That's why they added Dark and Steel in Gen II, right?

Psychic was immune to ghost back in Gen1.

And Bug had only shitty moves so Psychic had pretty much no weakness.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Could you expand on this? And generally that whole post I guess?

tl;dr

Dragon and Ghost are a rare typing but kinda "eh" for what it is

Dragon as a typing sucks(below average if you really put stuff like Normal and Bug which is designed to be terrible alongside it). It was designed as a Normal type that is specifically resists the Starter type, but it had mediocre offensive coverage(due to Neutral only coverage), and really "OK" defensive coverage.

Dragon was deemed broken because Gen 4 and 5 gave them 140 BP and 130 average offense stats on a well rounded overall stats and great movepool when your STANDARD OFFENSIVE MON on gen 4 had like Glass Cannon spread + 108 offense and 90-120 BP. Even Luke for example have 120 BP and 115 Offense with lolbulk and 90 speed.

Gen 5 cases was particularly worse because their typing is anti meta(it heatran syndromed many Grass, some of Water, and a notable amount of Fire which is actually 3 dominant type in Gen 5 singles,and Water dominates Gen 5 Doubles anyway) and have Dragon Gem Draco Meteor

Ghost having Dark Weakness is such a crippling flaw because it means you are weak to Pursuit. Otherwise most of what is said to Dragon applies outside of having Draco Meteor(seriously speaking 2 of the only good non Mega Ghost mon are very idealized)

Compared to those, Flying, Ground, and Water is a relatively common type, but they are incidentally arguably some of the best typing in the game because of amazing Neutral Coverage, and good enough defensive capability(unlike Rock and Ice who roll over these offensively, but is needy defensively)

The point about Flying relates to Dragon in a sense. There are tons of good mon with Flying SUB without real way of using their flying STAB, and good flying mon is basically ones that requires strictly handled team support like 4x SR weak Pinsir, and I attack once and i'm dead Staraptor. A well rounded good flying type basically doesn't exist for the most part, and a lot of them seems to be designed purposefully to never get it.

This can be seen from Dragonite not having generic Flying STAB outside Hurricane from 100 SpA(and ironically Fly Nite is supposed to be legit if smogon is any indication), Gyara not having Flying STAB except the inconvenient Bounce, and Aerial Ace Aerodactyl. And Salamence.

This makes a HUGE diffference - Mega Aerodactyl with 100 BP Stone Edge coming from what is essentially 95 Base ATK(289 x 1.3 = 375 around 140 Base ATK) is nowhere as much of a high damage offensive threat as Mega Zard X with 100 BP Stone Edge coming from a real 130 Base ATK.

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 219-258 (57.3 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 145-172 (37.9 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Mega Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 144-171 (37.6 - 44.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Aerodactyl Aerial Ace vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 112-133 (29.3 - 34.8%) -- 11.2% chance to 3HKO

Theorycrafting:

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Aerodactyl Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 225-265 (58.9 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This is between two mon who have comparable stats

This rule have been broken in 2 cases, Tornadus Therian, who have so much bullshit between Regenerator and high Spe to back up Hurricane Spam was a cancer in gen 5 when it can use 100% accurate Hurricane. It remains the only pokemon in current OU that is used despite having its main move operating at 70% Accuracy.

This one is broken in a very self explanatory way, since its currently Top 4 in Uber Metagame, but anyway, Mega Salamence does have stuff like Skarm Bulk and 120 speed(very upper standard here. 130 is the high number and its Loppuny, and 108 is Keldeo, and 110 is Megagross so this speed advantage is indeed a huge deal), but its essentially Salamence if its allowed to use STAB Brave Bird and it makes a world of a difference - Mega Mence would have been almost as tame as Mence right now if its ability was Intimidate

252 Atk Life Orb Salamence Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 224-265 (58.6 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 237-279 (62 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

P.S. Grass would be the best type in pokemon if their type chart isn't resisted by 90.000 things anyway

Edited September 26, 2016 by JSND

[Water Mage]

You know, this post just reminded me that the Flying type doesn't have a safe STAB move.

Then again, most Flying types tend to be all-or-nothing fighters as JSND said.

Out of curiosity, I went to check the type chart and moves of each type.

And as I was checking, I realized how good Ground and Water were as types.

I mean, I always that they were good types, but when you compare them to other types, it's amazing how good the are.

Not only that but they access to STAB moves that are both safe and strong, such as Scald, Surf and Earthquake.

I know that a single best type doesn't exist, but if I were to say which are the top 5 best types, I would say, Ground, Water, Flying, Flying, Fairy and Fighting, in no particular order.

And as much I would like to say that Water is the strongest type, I have to admit that, from my point of view, Ground type might be arguably the one worthy of that title.

Seriously, it's ridiculous how much good the Ground type is. There are are little to no cons in a Pokemon being a Ground type, and a lot of positives.

It's only real flaw is the lack of Special Attackers, and Earth Power being a somewhat scarce move.

Edited September 26, 2016 by Water Mage

[Quintessence]

Ground for best type because immune to Thunder Wave, yay

[Anacybele]

But they're weak to Water (usually), and isn't that a commonly used type?

Edited September 26, 2016 by Anacybele

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Top 5 is probably Water Ground Flying Steel Fighting because resisting Dark without being eaten alive by Ttar is pretty cool

Defensively Grass Water Ground Steel Flying is like proven to be the best type ever what with most good defensive mon being part of these

Offensively its Rock Ice Water Ground Flying

Ground being weak to Water is actually ok because it resists Rock, and immune to Thunder Wave. The way it counters Electric is kinda funny because most Grass type is helpless past using HP Ice, which some Ground is pretty comfortable in taking.

[Water Mage]

Top 5 is probably Water Ground Flying Steel Fighting because resisting Dark without being eaten alive by Ttar is pretty cool

Defensively Grass Water Ground Steel Flying is like proven to be the best type ever what with most good defensive mon being part of these

Offensively its Rock Ice Water Ground Flying

Ground being weak to Water is actually ok because it resists Rock, and immune to Thunder Wave. The way it counters Electric is kinda funny because most Grass type is helpless past using HP Ice, which some Ground is pretty comfortable in taking.

If it were Gen 5, my list if Top 5 types would be the same as yours, but Gen 6, I have to replace Steel with Fairy.

Steel recieved a major nerf in Gen 6, and losing it's Dark resistance really, really hurts it. Especially with Pursuit and Knock Off being so common.

And the reason why Fairy is on my Top 5 list is because of their weaknesses. It sounds weird, I know, but honestly, to me, the reason why Fairy is so good has little to do with it's immunity and advantage over Dragon, despite it being their major selling point. Honeslty, Fairy's advantage over Dragon isn't anything special really.

The real charm of the Fairy type is it's uncommon weaknesses. Steel and Poison are very uncommon attacking types, and Pokemon that can use Steel and Poison STAB are to busy to waste a move slot on an attacking. This makes Fairy a very easy type to switch in and out.

There's a reason why Clefable is such a bitch to take down.

[Espinosa]

I don't like mono-ground as a defensive type tbqh. Sure, it is immune to electric but not much else. Steel is so much better.