Snipers: DEBATE

[Defeatist Elitist]

Alright then, since the main discussion in the last one was GBA Snipers being weak, and Rebecca vs Will, I'll focus on that.

Well, GBA Snipers are definitely weak I would say, since they have no Crit boost, and Bows are probably the weakest weapon in the game.

Personally, I believe both Will and Rebbecca to be fairly mediocre. I would give the edge to Rebbecca though, as though she is quite difficult to use effectively at first in order to level her up, she ends up being fairly good, and has amazing Dodge. I also see her Supports as somewhat better, if a little unrealistic in some situations (Dart not being fielded because of massive damage to funds, etc).

Rebbecca just seems to have more good points. Obviously there is more, but I'm trying to keep this light for now.

[Florete]

I'll move it to FE7 if you don't mind.

Rebecca is better. Challenge that.

[CGV]

I'll move it to FE7 if you don't mind.

Rebecca is better. Challenge that.

oooh! fierce opnening!

*gets popcorn* (sorry if i interfered. I'll stay out of it now)

[torifae]

Rebecca is better than Wil no matter what you may think through personal experience. <.<

[Tino]

Personally, I believe both Will and Rebbecca to be fairly mediocre. I would give the edge to Rebbecca though, as though she is quite difficult to use effectively at first in order to level her up, she ends up being fairly good, and has amazing Dodge. I also see her Supports as somewhat better, if a little unrealistic in some situations (Dart not being fielded because of massive damage to funds, etc).

Her supports suck.

Dart: Not played.

Louise: Not played.

Nino: Not played.

Lowen: A Marcus/Eliwood, B Marcus/Eliwood

Sain: A Kent, B Serra

Raven: A Lucius, B Priscilla

Wil: Ironically enough, Wil is Rebecca's best support option, and they're not even going to be used together, although I suppose that since we're debating them, they are both used.

Wil isn't much better, although he can snatch that extra A/B Lyn if he's played.

So overall, Wil's supports are actually better than Rebecca's -_-

[Dr. Tarrasque]

I usually prefer using Wil because of the level lead you can give him by playing Lyn's story. Rebecca's only winning in Speed and luck but who needs lots of speed in FE7?

Edited October 7, 2008 by ThunderMan

[Defeatist Elitist]

I'll move it to FE7 if you don't mind.

Rebecca is better. Challenge that.

You want me to debate from Wil's point of view? Sure. :D

I shall begin...

First off, you'll notice that Wil comes back in Lyn's mode, which is totally easy. He won't be a drag on your party at all to train then. He should gain a few levels there, at least enough to match the number of levels Rebbecca would gain in the time between when she joins and when he joins in HHM. Now, say they're both level, say, 8-10. Honestly, I just chose a promising sounding number, but that sounds about right... But wait, there's a catch. Rebbecca has to work a LOT harder for those levels than Wil does, her levels are far harder, she is fairly easily killed, etc.

Now, assuming they both managed to reach that level (8):

They would look like this:

Wil:

HP: 24.5 Str 9.0 Skill 8.0 Speed 7.4 Def 6.2 Res 1.5 Luck 8.4 Con 6

And Rebbecca:

21.2 6.8 8.5 10.2 4.0 3.1 7.5 5

Now, HP is a win for Wil, as is Str, by a fair margin. Skill is essentially a tie, but hitting (especially with bows), is rarely an issue. Speed is a clear win for Rebbecca, but Con closes the gap for Wil a little bit. Def is another win for Wil, and Res goes to Rebbecca. However, Res is a less important stat, since there aren't too many mages, they all have AWFUL attack, and they all go down really quickly anyway. Wil wins Luck by a little.

Now, Wil is definitely winning durability, with higher Def, HP, and comparable Avoid, due to his higher Luck, and her lower Con.

Offense is a toss up. The AS difference usually won't end up causing too much difference, but it does on some enemies. Wil is likely to be wielding a heavier bow though, and thus will have a higher Pow, in addition to his better Str. So in all enemies that have less than 4 AS, or more than 6, Wil will win, whereas all those with 4, 5, or 6, Rebbecca will probably win. Of course, there will be some difference. I may go into Supports soon.

Man, I really need to play this game again, I'm getting REALLY hazy... :(

[Florete]

You want me to debate from Wil's point of view? Sure. :D

I meant anyone in general... I'd rather not be the debater here if I can help it.

[DeSu]

Well played ZX! But how about this. In HHM, mages start to have a large population later. Rebecca's res is sure to cone in handy. Also, her better avoid becomes undeniable later. Not only does she take less damage from mages later, she also has that high avoid to help with her Low hp. And she was support with lowen, who(for those not supporting him with Marcus) makes a good wall. And a wall is just what an archer wants.

I makez a good?

Sorry, my iPhone auto corrects somethings, sometimes thing I dont want it to...{♢.♢}

Edited October 7, 2008 by フアイヤ

[canas is back]

Well played ZX! But how about this. In HHM, mages start to have a large population later. Rebecca's res is sure to cone in handy. Also, her better avoid becomes undeniable later. Not only does she take less damage from mages later, she also has that high avoid to help with her Low hp. And she was support with lowen, who(for those not supporting him with Marcus) makes a good wall. And a wall is just what an archer wants.

I makez a good?

Sorry, my iPhone auto corrects somethings, sometimes thing I dont want it to...{♢.♢}

Kind of, but OWNEN has the marcus and eliwood supports, so in the off chance you do, umm (I'm getting rusty too) maybe

[Reikken]

Her supports suck.

Dart: Not played.

Louise: Not played.

Nino: Not played.

Lowen: A Marcus/Eliwood, B Marcus/Eliwood

Sain: A Kent, B Serra

Raven: A Lucius, B Priscilla

Wil: Ironically enough, Wil is Rebecca's best support option, and they're not even going to be used together, although I suppose that since we're debating them, they are both used.

Nope. She has a pretty good support list.

Lowen: Rebecca is his best support, easily. That's #1 on his list. Fire-Fire is full offense, and offense is what this guy needs most.

Sain: Rebecca or Serra. Either one. Serra's affinity is more defensive while Rebecca's is offensive.

Raven: Fire is basically a superior version of wind (avo >>> crit avo), so Rebecca > Priscilla.

Additionally, all these characters you claim are always played and always supporting these units actually may not be played (!) or may be supporting other units (!!!). A good example of this is Priscilla. Many people don't like using both healers, so if you're using Serra, as you're assuming... Also, Priscilla has lots of good supports, best of which are Guy and Erk. She also has Lucius and Oswin, aside from Raven. So Raven very often, or even 'usually', gets no support from her.

Conversely, all these "Not played." characters actually may be played (oh snap!). Mostly Dart, since the other two join late anyway.

Wil isn't much better, although he can snatch that extra A/B Lyn if he's played.

...and Will is one of Lyn's worst supports. Florina, Kent, Hector, and Eliwood are all better due to actually giving her that avo/def she sorely lacks while Wil doesn't, and still giving her the atk (except Hector). Saying Wil gets a Lyn support while saying that Rebecca can't get any of her supports sounds pretty biased to me.

Edited October 7, 2008 by Reikken

[Defeatist Elitist]

Well played ZX! But how about this. In HHM, mages start to have a large population later. Rebecca's res is sure to cone in handy. Also, her better avoid becomes undeniable later. Not only does she take less damage from mages later, she also has that high avoid to help with her Low hp. And she was support with lowen, who(for those not supporting him with Marcus) makes a good wall. And a wall is just what an archer wants.

I makez a good?

Sorry, my iPhone auto corrects somethings, sometimes thing I dont want it to...{♢.♢}

Ah, but Late Game is rarely a problem, as by then most of your characters kick enough ass that you barely have to worry. It's early game where there's trouble. Regardless, let's take a look at them at 20/1, right after promotion.

Wil:

36.5 16.0 16.0 14.2 10.6 7.5 13.2 7

Rebbecca:

32.4 14.6 15.5 18.3 7.8 8.7 13.5 6

It's pretty similar, isn't it, although now she has a clear Avoid edge, but her Res edge is slipping.

Now, support wise, Wil is actually pretty alright off. Lowen, when fielded, is unlikely to get a Rebbecca Support, so Wil and Rebbecca (assuming both are fielded, which for the sake of a debate like this, they usually are) are likely to Support each other, since the Support ain't half bad, and is pretty fast. Wil can also probably sneak a Lyn B.

But I must stress, early game is when the problems are, and Wil's problems just aren't as bad as Rebbecca's.

[canas is back]

Nope. She has a pretty good support list.

Lowen: Rebecca is his best support, easily. That's #1 on his list. Fire-Fire is full offense, and offense is what this guy needs most.

Sain: Rebecca or Serra. Either one. Serra's affinity is more defensive while Rebecca's is offensive.

Raven: Fire is basically a superior version of wind (avo >>> crit avo), so Rebecca > Priscilla.

additionally, all these characters you claim are always played and always supporting these units actually may not be played (!). Conversely, all these "Not played." characters actually may be played.

...and Will is one of Lyn's worst supports. Florina, Kent, Hector, and Eliwood are all better due to actually giving her that avo/def she sorely lacks while Wil doesn't, and still giving her the atk (except Hector). Saying Wil gets a Lyn support while saying that Rebecca can't get any of her supports sounds pretty biased to me.

not if you want S rank, you could argue nino ONLY if you don't use another mage anf gave the guiding ring to her,but it'd still hurt funds, and dart KILLS funds rank, louise is not played because will and rebecca exist.

the other ones are already taken for several reasons:

one, ease of the support, how little impact it will have on tactics score

two, the bonus it gives, this seems the only thing you are taking into consideration

three: availibility, if someone has something better, they have it, why waste a A support better used on someone else.

[Florete]

So is this just a free-for-all debate?

[canas is back]

I guess, there was no specific challenge issued (see tino vs ss)

[Reikken]

not if you want S rank, you could argue nino ONLY if you don't use another mage anf gave the guiding ring to her,but it'd still hurt funds, and dart KILLS funds rank, louise is not played because will and rebecca exist.

the other ones are already taken for several reasons:

Because everyone is always playing for ranks, right?

Also, -40k is not a fatal blow. And it doesn't even matter at all if you're not playing for ranks.

And there's nothing stopping you from using two snipers (Rebecca and Louise), especially when Louise comes with that A with Pent making him that much better.

one, ease of the support, how little impact it will have on tactics score

two, the bonus it gives, this seems the only thing you are taking into consideration

three: availibility, if someone has something better, they have it, why waste a A support better used on someone else.

...what? You'll have to explain what you're talking about, because none of that has any relevance as is.

Edited October 7, 2008 by Reikken

[Florete]

Because everyone is always playing for ranks, right?

Also, -40k is not a fatal blow. And it almost doesn't matter at all if you're not playing for ranks.

And there's nothing stopping you from using two snipers (Rebecca and Louise), especially when Louise comes with that A with Pent making him that much better.

As much as I prefer Rebecca, I must point out:

It's a debate, so rankings matter.

It's a debate between two snipers, so the third isn't likely to be played since the first two are assumed to be played.

[canas is back]

Because everyone is always playing for ranks, right?

Also, -40k is not a fatal blow. And it almost doesn't matter at all if you're not playing for ranks.

And there's nothing stopping you from using two snipers (Rebecca and Louise), especially when Louise comes with that A with Pent making him that much better.

...what? You'll have to explain what you're talking about, because none of that has any relevance as is.

sorry, I thought you knew the rules, in making an "official statement" (I use that term loosely) we assume that the player is making a ranked run and is trying to get a perfect score, that's why funds and tactics matter

[Reikken]

The topic post says nothing about ranks.

[canas is back]

which topic?

[Reikken]

This one, obviously

[canas is back]

we made this one a official debate topic, the rules matter here

[Florete]

The topic post says nothing about ranks.

It's a debate topic, so the debating standards are in effect, meaning rankings are going to be considered.

[Reikken]

Oh ok...

not if you want S rank, you could argue nino ONLY if you don't use another mage anf gave the guiding ring to her,but it'd still hurt funds, and dart KILLS funds rank, louise is not played because will and rebecca exist.

the other ones are already taken for several reasons:

Nino helps exp rank. (not that a support that late really matters...)

-40k is not a fatal blow.

And there's nothing stopping you from using two snipers (Rebecca and Louise), especially when Louise comes with that A with Pent making him that much better. and is also essentially +10k due to being already promoted.

fix'd

Edited October 7, 2008 by Reikken

[canas is back]

maybe not kills, but it's no small matter either, 40 k is a pretty large blow, and if you don't want to be skimping and saving on weapons, gold, and promotions later, it's better not to use him.