So why exactly do people call Conquest Corrin an idiot?(Conquest spoilers)

[Water Mage]

Well. Have a solid argument:

Change through working within the system. One of the basic things in a modern nation. It's why Bernie Sanders can you know, get votes and Trump can be popular. It's a completely valid tactic, even in a medieval-type nation, ESPECIALLY if you are technically part of the royalty and thus are part of the line of succession.

Another valid argument: Leaving Nohr without a proper good center can result in a lot more damage. The Ice Tribe, for example. Leaving Nohr alone also results in more fighting than fighting FOR Nohr, as in that event you are capable of lessening the damage done in many areas, and being the person going first you are capable of minimizing the damage of clearing a path.

All of those of arguments fall flat when you someone who can kill you if they so want. As I said before, Garon could pretty much kill Corrin the moment he wants. And Corrin knows that.

With Garon around, the whole change from inside is extremely dangerous and stupid, especially when you can do the same thing from Hoshido.

Siding with Hoshido would allow you to protect Hoshido and change Nohr inside.

Where siding with Nohr doesn't allow you to protect Hoshido, and changing Nohr from inside is just a risky possibility.

And Corrin leaving Nohr would not leave Nohr without a good center because Corrin has very little political power and influence in Nohr.

And to obtain that, Corrin would need to change Nohr from he inside, which I already said, is a stupid and dangerous gambit with Garon around.

Edited March 4, 2016 by Water Mage

[Fallaner]

The writers should have either made Nohr more grey so that an argument can be made for choosing them, or kept Nohr black and actually acknowledge that they're black(along with Kamui). Not have them be black and then still portray Kamui as a hero and excuse him for all of the shit he does after he chooses them.

I agree that Nohr should of been made more gray. However, I still feel an argument CAN be made for choosing them, however it's not the easiest argument and can be viewed as questionable. However, ultimately loyalty is not a rational thing.

I don't think the Avatar should of been made evil. That would of rather upset quite a few people, i'd imagine. More so than has happened now.

[spoiler=I'LL DO IT RIGHT THIS TIME COACH, PLEASE DON'T BENCH ME]So...are we agreeing or disagreeing on this, I really can't tell at this point. But I would like to say that Iago would still be around, and Iago and Hans clearly symptoms of the real bad element's effects, not the actual problem itself.

Given how Iago is only omnipotent when the story needs him to be, this isn't actually a concern, I think.

My mistake, I didn't eloquently express what I meant to say. Dismissing anyone's argument like that, regardless of how many people it may or may not apply to within the group, is not helping your case. And I can't speak for anyone else, but there are things I like about Conquest; they're just so overshadowed by the things I don't like (and the bad things are more commonly discussed, because it's often easier to talk about things you dislike rather than things you like) that it doesn't come up much.

[spoiler=Your coach is probably going to bench you.]We are disagreeing on Cheve. While Iago's omnipotence seems like a McGuffin, that's highly annoying, it IS still a thing and thus still a concern.

Iago would of probably been watching Hans to report you and get you killed, as he's been wanting you to die the entire game.

I would also agree that Iago and Hans are not the bad themselves. Nohr has a lot of cultural issues and economic issues that would breed someone like them who see this as the right way to do things. They are a symptom of Nohr's environment, which is not something Nohr decided on.

All of those of arguments fall flat when you someone who can kill you if they so want. As I said before, Garon could pretty much kill Corrin the moment he wants. And Corrin knows that.

With Garon around, the whole change from inside is extremely dangereous and stupid, especially when you can do the same thing Hoshido.

Siding with Hoshido would allow you to protect Hoshido and change Nohr inside.

Where siding with Nohr doesn't allow you to protect Hoshido, and changing Nohr from inside is just a risky possibility.

And Corrin leaving Nohr would not leave Nohr without a good center because Corrin has very little political power and influence in Nohr.

And to obtain that, Corrin would need to change Nohr from he inside, which I already said, is a stupid and dangerous gambit with Garon around.

In Hoshido, all you can do is really just kill Nohr. There's very little change you can do there aside from just beat up Nohr and HOPE their people don't hold a huge grudge to repeat their previous actions, as THAT is the nation of the Nohrians. They dislike Hoshidans naturally because while they live with too little, the Hoshidans live with too much.

Siding with Hoshido does not allow you to forever protect Hoshido. Without abandoning Hoshido's defense to someone else you are unable to win. You also can't be a million places at once, so if you played defense, Nohr would just attack a bunch of places at once in a tactic to draw your army away from their main objective. You are also incapable of changing Nohr from within... by definition. You are in HOSHIDO. Not Nohr.

The Avatar leaving Nohr would leave Nohr without a good center because the Royal Siblings tend to side with the Avatar's decisions. If the Avatar says to not kill anyone, they do it. Even Peri's bloodlust gets reigned in for her introduction mission. Without that, they still would of killed people.

Garon around is really irrelevant. Because you'd have to fight Garon in Hoshido also, and there he'd potentially be more dangerous if he got off his lazy ass and went to war himself with the royal family supporting him. Especially if he did it towards the start when Ryoma and Takumi were still missing.

Please try again, dear Mage.

Edited March 4, 2016 by Fallaner

[Abysswalker25]

My mistake, I didn't eloquently express what I meant to say. Dismissing anyone's argument like that, regardless of how many people it may or may not apply to within the group, is not helping your case. And I can't speak for anyone else, but there are things I like about Conquest; they're just so overshadowed by the things I don't like (and the bad things are more commonly discussed, because it's often easier to talk about things you dislike rather than things you like) that it doesn't come up much.

Fair enough. I wasn't trying to dismiss anyones arguement. I admit, I kinda suck at wording things properly.

[Ebony]

Thinking about it this is the only site I've been on that has criticized Nohr's story. Especially constructively.

[Tolvir]

Alright, let me chime in with my two cents on why I chose Conquest, to hopefully shed some light on why others did.

I chose Conquest because of 2 reasons. The first being family obviously. The second, is the main reason though. Redemption. I saw Conquest, and what it was advertised to be, and saw a story about redemption. Conquest isnt supposed to be about siding with the kingdom because you think its a good faction. It is siding with Nohr because there is a story about a kingdom trying to break away from its dark history, and it needs someone to lead them on the right path. That is why I chose Nohr. Because I thought I was going to get a story about good triumphing over evil and redemption for a kingdom and a group of people. Did it turn out that way in the end? In a very convoluted, badly written way, yes it did. I can completely understand people criticizing the story for its plot holes, inconsistencies, and rushed writings, but I do not like seeing everyone completely trash another choice in this game because they don't understand the reasoning for the choice. Not once do I ever see anyone talk about the true reason to side with Nohr. Everyone loves to talk about just how evil the kingdom is, how horrible the royals are, and how it is stupid to choose Nohr, but I never see anyone mention the fact that it is supposed to be evil, because if it wasn't, what is there to change? How are you supposed to have a story of redemption without the evil? Did it ever cross any of your minds that Nohr was intended to be the more "evil" choice of the two because you are trying to change it? Sure, the story did not in any way do a good job of writing that story, and could of done a far better way of writing that story. Look at all the characters, and their backstories in Nohr and for most of them you will see a reoccurring theme. They all have something in their past, and their stories are about overcoming that and changing as a person, or at least that is what was intended. Unfortunately IS did a bad job of writing that too, but that is what was intended for sure. So please, if you are going to pick something apart in Nohr, pick apart the failed attempt at writing a redemption/revolution story for the kingdom, but do not trash the concept behind the choice and say there is no reason to do so, because even though it is a horribly written way to get there, its still there.

Edit: Just realized after writing this that I am probably about to start a shit storm, but oh well.

Edited March 4, 2016 by Tolvir

[Water Mage]

I agree that Nohr should of been made more gray. However, I still feel an argument CAN be made for choosing them, however it's not the easiest argument and can be viewed as questionable. However, ultimately loyalty is not a rational thing.

I don't think the Avatar should of been made evil. That would of rather upset quite a few people, i'd imagine. More so than has happened now.

[spoiler=Your coach is probably going to bench you.]We are disagreeing on Cheve. While Iago's omnipotence seems like a McGuffin, that's highly annoying, it IS still a thing and thus still a concern.

Iago would of probably been watching Hans to report you and get you killed, as he's been wanting you to die the entire game.

I would also agree that Iago and Hans are not the bad themselves. Nohr has a lot of cultural issues and economic issues that would breed someone like them who see this as the right way to do things. They are a symptom of Nohr's environment, which is not something Nohr decided on.

In Hoshido, all you can do is really just kill Nohr. There's very little change you can do there aside from just beat up Nohr and HOPE their people don't hold a huge grudge to repeat their previous actions, as THAT is the nation of the Nohrians. They dislike Hoshidans naturally because while they live with too little, the Hoshidans live with too much.

Siding with Hoshido does not allow you to forever protect Hoshido. Without abandoning Hoshido's defense to someone else you are unable to win. You also can't be a million places at once, so if you played defense, Nohr would just attack a bunch of places at once in a tactic to draw your army away from their main objective. You are also incapable of changing Nohr from within... by definition. You are in HOSHIDO. Not Nohr.

The Avatar leaving Nohr would leave Nohr without a good center because the Royal Siblings tend to side with the Avatar's decisions. If the Avatar says to not kill anyone, they do it. Even Peri's bloodlust gets reigned in for her introduction mission. Without that, they still would of killed people.

Garon around is really irrelevant. Because you'd have to fight Garon in Hoshido also, and there he'd potentially be more dangerous if he got off his lazy ass and went to war himself with the royal family supporting him. Especially if he did it towards the start when Ryoma and Takumi were still missing.

Please try again, dear Mage.

In Hoshido you can do more that kill nohrians.

Remember Scarlet? The woman from a region under Nohr's influence who wants fight against King Garon because she thinks his rule is harmful to the kingdom?

Corrin can manage to change Nohr from inside, but in Birthright not Conquest.

In fact, in Conquest, when someone tries to change from the inside, like Scarlet and Kilme, Corrin is sent to stop them.

It's actually really ironic.

It's true that you would't protect Hoshido forever, but the same goes for Nohr, you can keep Nohr peaceful forever, especially when your actions earned you the hatred of others.

The Nohr sibilings do not side with the Avatar, the mostly humor him/her because they think Corrin's actions won't really change anything in the end.

And Garon is not irrelevant. He's the King. Corrin being there or not won't change a thing.

Even if they don't agree, the sibilings do pretty much wants, regardless of the route you choose.

Edited March 4, 2016 by Water Mage

[Fallaner]

In Hoshido you can do more that kill nohrians.

Remember Scarlet? The woman from a region under Nohr's influence who wants fight against King Garon because she thinks his rule is harmful to the kingdom?

Corrin can manage to change Nohr from inside, but in Birthright not Conquest.

In fact, in Conquest, when someone tries to change from inside, like Scarlet and Kilme, Corrin is sent to stop them.

It's actually really ironic.

It's true that you would't protect Hoshido forever, but the same goes for Nohr, you can keep Nohr peaceful forever, especially when your actions earned you the hatred of others.

The Nohr sibilings do not side with the Avatar, the mostly humor him/her because they think Corrin's actions won't really change anything in the end.

And Garon is not irrelevant. He's the King. Corrin being there or not won't change a thing.

Even if they don't agree, the sibilings do pretty much wants, regardless of the route you choose.

You didn't read what I said in regards to "irrelevant" or are deliberately misrepresenting my argument. Garon being in Nohr VS "not" In Hoshido is IRRELEVANT. He'd be a more dangerous foe in Hoshido than he could EVER be in Nohr, because in Nohr your family WILL defend you. Garon threatened to kill you, and guess what, Xander refuses to do it, and it's clear Garon would have to kill the entire family to win, and he's not willing to do that at first.

The Avatar can not like, help Scarlet into Nohr. In fact, she'd be in an even WORSE position to change Nohr from within in comparison to the Avatar in Nohr.

You can however guarantee a longer peace between Nohr and Hoshido if you win on Nohr's side.

The Nohr siblings do side with the Avatar. It's why Xander goes behind his father's back so much to HELP the Avatar, because he wants to HELP his sister. It's why Xander demands that Garon would have to kill him first before he could kill the Avatar. Your argument ONLY works when you side with Hoshido.

Alright, let me chime in with my two cents on why I chose Conquest, to hopefully shed some light on why others did.

I chose Conquest because of 2 reasons. The first being family obviously. The second, is the main reason though. Redemption. I saw Conquest, and what it was advertised to be, and saw a story about redemption. Conquest isnt supposed to be about siding with the kingdom because you think its a good faction. It is siding with Nohr because there is a story about a kingdom trying to break away from its dark history, and it needs someone to lead them on the right path. That is why I chose Nohr. Because I thought I was going to get a story about good triumphing over evil and redemption for a kingdom and a group of people. Did it turn out that way in the end? In a very convoluted, badly written way, yes it did. I can completely understand people criticizing the story for its plot holes, inconsistencies, and rushed writings, but I do not like seeing everyone completely trash another choice in this game because they don't understand the reasoning for the choice. Not once do I ever see anyone talk about the true reason to side with Nohr. Everyone loves to talk about just how evil the kingdom is, how horrible the royals are, and how it is stupid to choose Nohr, but I never see anyone mention the fact that it is supposed to be evil, because if it wasn't, what is there to change? How are you supposed to have a story of redemption without the evil? Did it ever cross any of your minds that Nohr was intended to be the more "evil" choice of the two because you are trying to change it? Sure, the story did not in any way do a good job of writing that story, and could of done a far better way of writing that story. Look at all the characters, and their backstories in Nohr and for most of them you will see a reoccurring theme. They all have something in their past, and their stories are about overcoming that and changing as a person, or at least that is what was intended. Unfortunately IS did a bad job of writing that too, but that is what was intended for sure. So please, if you are going to pick something apart in Nohr, pick apart the failed attempt at writing a redemption/revolution story for the kingdom, but do not trash the concept behind the choice and say there is no reason to do so, because even though it is a horribly written way to get there, its still there.

Edit: Just realized after writing this that I am probably about to start a shit storm, but oh well.

For the most part, I agree with you. However, I'd say that Conquest's writing and story is actually rather good overall. Sure there are some problems, but overall i'd say it's pretty good.

Edited March 4, 2016 by Fallaner

[joshcja]

My only real hatred for conquest corin is that Hans doesn't get his throat cut on ch13

Edited March 4, 2016 by joshcja

[Tolvir]

You didn't read what I said in regards to "irrelevant" or are deliberately misrepresenting my argument. Garon being in Nohr VS "not" In Hoshido is IRRELEVANT. He'd be a more dangerous foe in Hoshido than he could EVER be in Nohr, because in Nohr your family WILL defend you. Garon threatened to kill you, and guess what, Xander refuses to do it, and it's clear Garon would have to kill the entire family to win, and he's not willing to do that at first.

The Avatar can not like, help Scarlet into Nohr. In fact, she'd be in an even WORSE position to change Nohr from within in comparison to the Avatar in Nohr.

You can however guarantee a longer peace between Nohr and Hoshido if you win on Nohr's side.

The Nohr siblings do side with the Avatar. It's why Xander goes behind his father's back so much to HELP the Avatar, because he wants to HELP his sister. It's why Xander demands that Garon would have to kill him first before he could kill the Avatar. Your argument ONLY works when you side with Hoshido.

For the most part, I agree with you. However, I'd say that Conquest's writing and story is actually rather good overall. Sure there are some problems, but overall i'd say it's pretty good.

I would actually agree for the most part, I just see that there was a better way to go about it. Overall the concept was really good, and a lot of the earlier chapters were really setting everything up nicely. Chapter 15 knocked it down a peg, and it progressively kind of lost track in a way from there, but that theme was still there. Around Chapter 22 it really starts to pick up again though. Unfortunately I am stuck on Chapter 24, but I am really enjoying the story so far. Like I said, the only reason I say it had bad writing is because there was a better way to write it and go about it. Overall I think the problem mostly stems from them rushing the game overall. I feel like they really rushed this game along to get it out the door, when they could of waited a year or so and produced something even better.

[Azure Sen]

I'm still writing up responses to the rest, but:

Not once do I ever see anyone talk about the true reason to side with Nohr. Everyone loves to talk about just how evil the kingdom is, how horrible the royals are, and how it is stupid to choose Nohr, but I never see anyone mention the fact that it is supposed to be evil, because if it wasn't, what is there to change?

People weren’t expecting Nohr to be evil, which is why there’s been such a backlash towards Conquest, and IntSys didn’t need Nohr to be evil for there to be something to change about it. People were expecting them to be morally gray, doing things of questionable morality for the sake of something other than dog kicking. If Conquest had been a story of the aggressive and warlike (but not evil) Nohr being slowly shown that violence wasn’t the only way and overcoming their past history with Hoshido to pave the way for a peaceful future instead of what we got, there would probably be a lot less criticism.

How are you supposed to have a story of redemption without the evil?

Easily? A country doing bad things, even for a good reason, and then trying to change their ways under the guidance of someone would have been a perfectly serviceable story.

[BruceLee]

Because you're harsh to it. (understandably imo but its like you almost say nothing positive about it - you seem to only talk about the negative parts aka the story)

There are positives, but they are so very much overshadowed by all of the negatives that i find it hard to talk about it positively.

The gameplay is amazing i guess, and Arthur is one my favorite characters.

Doesn't Corrin/Kamui know what they're doing is wrong? Does that still count as them being a hero? Are there some elements late on in the game that shows them in a negative light?

No, he doesn't know what he's doing is wrong. He thinks it's the right thing to do. Slaughtering Hoshidans for the ''greater good''. And at the end of the game he's forgiven by Hinoka and Sakura, and he's having a great time. Because who cares about all of the Hoshidans that died for his ''greater good''.

I don't think the Avatar should of been made evil. That would of rather upset quite a few people, i'd imagine. More so than has happened now.

If there's one thing that's really annoying it's having Corrin do horrible and stupid things and trying to convince the payer he's doing the right thing. It feels like the writers aren't taking us seriously.

[Water Mage]

You didn't read what I said in regards to "irrelevant" or are deliberately misrepresenting my argument. Garon being in Nohr VS "not" In Hoshido is IRRELEVANT. He'd be a more dangerous foe in Hoshido than he could EVER be in Nohr, because in Nohr your family WILL defend you. Garon threatened to kill you, and guess what, Xander refuses to do it, and it's clear Garon would have to kill the entire family to win, and he's not willing to do that at first.

The Avatar can not like, help Scarlet into Nohr. In fact, she'd be in an even WORSE position to change Nohr from within in comparison to the Avatar in Nohr.

You can however guarantee a longer peace between Nohr and Hoshido if you win on Nohr's side.

The Nohr siblings do side with the Avatar. It's why Xander goes behind his father's back so much to HELP the Avatar, because he wants to HELP his sister. It's why Xander demands that Garon would have to kill him first before he could kill the Avatar. Your argument ONLY works when you side with Hoshido.

First of all,

"You can guarantee a longer peace between Nohr and Hoshido if you win on Nohr's side."

How exactly? That peace was earned by pretty much destroying Hoshido. If anything, in Conquest's ending, things are still extremely tense, and another war could break out at any time.

And what I said about Garon not being irrelevant is because in Nohr, Garon has more chances to kill Corrin, the one who is trying to change Nohr from inside. If Corrin dies, this ideal dies as well, since none of the Nohr sibilings are willing to defy Garon.

And the only thing the Nohr sibilings help you with are small-scale things like letting prisioners live.

If Garon wants a war, the sibilings will comply, regardless of Corrin's wishes.

And how is Scarlet in a worse position to change Nohr from inside?

It's pretty much what she's trying to do in all three routes.

[BruceLee]

I really hate what happened to Scarlet in Conquest. Corrin claims he's gonna change Nohr from the inside, which is exactly what Scarlet is trying to do. And then what does Corrin do? He delivers her a brutal death.

Great job Corrin. You really are our hero.

[Fallaner]

First of all,

"You can guarantee a longer peace between Nohr and Hoshido if you win on Nohr's side."

How exactly? That peace was earned by pretty much destroying Hoshido. If anything, in Conquest's ending, things are still extremely tense, and another war could break out at any time.

And what I said about Garon not being irrelevant is because in Nohr, Garon has more chances to kill Corrin, the one who is trying to change Nohr from inside. If Corrin dies, this ideal dies as well, since none of the Nohr sibilings are willing to defy Garon.

And the only thing the Nohr sibilings help you with are small-scale things like letting prisioners live.

If Garon wants a war, the sibilings will comply, regardless of Corrin's wishes.

And how is Scarlet in a worse position to change Nohr from inside?

It's pretty much what she's trying to do in all three routes.

Because Hinoka isn't quite willing for another war and Sakura would almost certainly insist otherwise in any attempts for it. Shown in her supports, she's a bit of a pacifist, she dislikes fighting. Sakura is good at calming people for the most part as well.

The siblings will defend the Avatar to their own death in the Nohr path. I doubt they are bluffing that they would force Garon to kill each of them in order to kill you, as Elise gets HERSELF killed in Hoshido's path in order to stop you and Xander from fighting. They DO in fact defy Garon, a lot. Just covertly, in secret. They are playing a political game.

The siblings will help you let people live, they will help you purge a good portion of Nohr's military. Purging a portion of the military is NOT a small-scale thing. In Hoshido's path, you realize what happens? Scarlet's ENTIRE operation ends up crashing. It will no matter what. Scarlet is not trying a reform in the first place, at least not an internal one. She's trying a rebellion. Different concept. A rebellion gets squished by Nohr's corrupt might.

I really hate what happened to Scarlet in Conquest. Corrin claims he's gonna change Nohr from the inside, which is exactly what Scarlet is trying to do. And then what does Corrin do? He delivers her a brutal death.

Great job Corrin. You really are our hero.

HANS delivered her to a brutal death. The Avatar WANTED to keep them alive. She TRIED to do that. HANS killed them. Please, get it right.

Edited March 4, 2016 by Fallaner

[Water Mage]

I really hate what happened to Scarlet in Conquest. Corrin claims he's gonna change Nohr from the inside, which is exactly what Scarlet is trying to do. And then what does Corrin do? He delivers her a brutal death.

Great job Corrin. You really are our hero.

Yup, and something similar happens to Kilme.

He tries to change Nohr from the inside and Corrin stops him, but promises to change Nohr from the inside.

When Nohr starts to attack Hoshido in Conquest, Kilme was probably like "What the fuck I was thinking?"

Because Hinoka isn't quite willing for another war and Sakura would almost certainly insist otherwise in any attempts for it. Shown in her supports, she's a bit of a pacifist, she dislikes fighting. Sakura is good at calming people for the most part as well.

The siblings will defend the Avatar to their own death in the Nohr path. I doubt they are bluffing that they would force Garon to kill each of them in order to kill you, as Elise gets HERSELF killed in Hoshido's path in order to stop you and Xander from fighting. They DO in fact defy Garon, a lot. Just covertly, in secret. They are playing a political game.

The siblings will help you let people live, they will help you purge a good portion of Nohr's military. Purging a portion of the military is NOT a small-scale thing. In Hoshido's path, you realize what happens? Scarlet's ENTIRE operation ends up crashing. It will no matter what. Scarlet is not trying a reform in the first place, at least not an internal one. She's trying a rebellion. Different concept. A rebellion gets squished by Nohr's corrupt might.

HANS delivered her to a brutal death. The Avatar WANTED to keep them alive. She TRIED to do that. HANS killed them. Please, get it right.

Hinoka and Sakura may not want another war, but what about the rest of Hoshido?

For example Yukimura was pretty damn pissed when he was captured, saying he will never forgive Nohr.

The sibilings may defy Garon in secret, but it's only on small-scale things.

And you you aware that Corrin trying to change Nohr from the inside is pretty much l a rebellion itself?

And Scarlet is trying to change Nohr from inside, but through force.

And even if Corrin wanted to keep Scarlet alive, he/she never showed any signs of wanting to help her rebellion.

Edited March 4, 2016 by Water Mage

[nyainou]

I really hate what happened to Scarlet in Conquest. Corrin claims he's gonna change Nohr from the inside, which is exactly what Scarlet is trying to do. And then what does Corrin do? He delivers her a brutal death.

Great job Corrin. You really are our hero.

??? IIRC Corrin did not kill Scarlet. That was all Hans/Iago??? I know I've been disassociating pretty hard lately but did I really get facts so wrong?

[BruceLee]

HANS delivered her to a brutal death. The Avatar WANTED to keep them alive. She TRIED to do that. HANS killed them. Please, get it right.

No, Hans gave her a brutal death, Corrin delivered it to her. He's the one that injured her and left her vulnerable and left her to Hans and his gang to have their way with her.

@lordcorrin aswell.

Edited March 4, 2016 by BruceLee

[Abysswalker25]

I really hate what happened to Scarlet in Conquest. Corrin claims he's gonna change Nohr from the inside, which is exactly what Scarlet is trying to do. And then what does Corrin do? He delivers her a brutal death.

Great job Corrin. You really are our hero.

Corrin had no intention of killing her in the first place and wanted to handle things like he handled the ice tribe. But Iago and Hans suddenly show up and kill everyone on King Garon's orders.

[Tolvir]

I'm still writing up responses to the rest, but:

People weren’t expecting Nohr to be evil, which is why there’s been such a backlash towards Conquest, and IntSys didn’t need Nohr to be evil for there to be something to change about it. People were expecting them to be morally gray, doing things of questionable morality for the sake of something other than dog kicking. If Conquest had been a story of the aggressive and warlike (but not evil) Nohr being slowly shown that violence wasn’t the only way and overcoming their past history with Hoshido to pave the way for a peaceful future instead of what we got, there would probably be a lot less criticism.

Easily? A country doing bad things, even for a good reason, and then trying to change their ways under the guidance of someone would have been a perfectly serviceable story.

Little hard to do that when you also have to paint the kingdom as evil for the other faction. It makes for an easier situation for story telling with what they were going for. I still don't actually know where anyone got this "greyness" idea from, because I never remember it being mentioned when they talked about the game. From a story telling standpoint though, they clearly wanted to have the kingdom as a whole evil though so that Hoshido had a cut and dry enemy, and Nohr had its story of redemption.

I really hate what happened to Scarlet in Conquest. Corrin claims he's gonna change Nohr from the inside, which is exactly what Scarlet is trying to do. And then what does Corrin do? He delivers her a brutal death.

Great job Corrin. You really are our hero.

I still don't understand how this is Corrin's fault why she is dead. He had no control over Hans showing up and killing everyone because it was done behind his back. Its not like he went in there with the intention of " I am going to get people horrifically slaughtered today". Hans showed up while Corrin was dealing with Takumi, and killed everyone. To be honest there is actually a huge plot hole here because I don't understand how they were able to do all this in a short time while Corrin was still in the city dealing with Takumi. What I will say is that Scarlet's death served no purpose. It got no reaction out of me because I didn't know her. What should of happened is they should of had Corrin be able to converse with her like the old converse with the enemy trick to have her switch sides. He injured her with the intention of being able to save her, its not like he knew Hans was going to show up and kill everyone. Its not like Corrin could of backed out of that, because he has Garon breathing down his neck ready to execute him if he sneezes the wrong way.

[BruceLee]

Corrin had no intention of killing her in the first place and wanted to handle things like he handled the ice tribe. But Iago and Hans suddenly show up and kill everyone on King Garon's orders.

I know he had no intention of killing her, but it happened. And Corrin is to blame, intentional or not.

@Tolvir

It's Corrin's stupid decisions that caused her death. Scarlet wants to change Nohr. Corrin wants to change Nohr. Garon tells Corrin to go beat down Scarlet's rebellion, what does Corrin do? He listens. How was that a good or logical idea? What did he think was gonna happen to Scarlet? This is just a fine example of how the Nohr path is fucking stupid because it makes no sense.

Edited March 4, 2016 by BruceLee

[Fallaner]

Yup, and something similar happens to Kilme.

He tries to change Nohr from the inside and Corrin stops him, but promises to change Nohr from the inside.

When Nohr starts to attack Hoshido in Conquest, Kilme was probably like "What the fuck I was thinking?"

It's a game of politics. Do you understand how games of politics works?

Sometimes you have to play along to do the right thing. You go to war with Hoshido, yes. However, you deliberately take a path that will minimize the need to just kill everything. You ARE still changing Nohr from the inside. Nobody said it would be easy. Nobody said it would be bloodless.

It's a game of politics.

It's like living in Orlais. You have to play the game to survive, even if that results in doing things you disagree with, for the sake of doing something good.

No, Hans gave her a brutal death, Corrin delivered it to her. He's the one that injured her and left her vulnerable and left her to Hans and his gang to have their way with her.

@lordcorrin aswell.

The Avatar expected Hans to obey her orders. That was the general idea. You can't blame it all on the Avatar due to a miscommunication. Hans was SUPPOSEDLY put under the Avatar's command. If the Avatar didn't go there to end things however, the result would of been much more disastrous for everyone involved.

[semolinaro]

I almost wish I had the power to save poor Corrin from the confines of IS terrible script. Corrin is a character with so much potential, especially on the Conquest side. But instead we get a clearly morally questionable character who is portrayed in a forcibly positive light while he invades an innocent nation so their mad adoptive father can sit on a magical chair. He failed to communicate or reason with his siblings who supposedly 'love' him but if you talk bad about our daddy then we gotta kill you! Also, one thing that's never really been discussed is why the hell Corrin is a dragon. Like okay, cool you're a dragon, but WHY?? Why are YOU the dragon? Why does no one call out you were born with manakete ears? It's never once explained why you yourself are a dragon but no one else is. I was hoping it would mean you had some dark connections to the dragon gods, similar to Robin's connections with Grima. But nope, you're just a dragon because it's cool to be a dragon. (And you ain't even a cool looking dragon. You look more like a praying mantis than a fearsome reptile).

Also, the dancer moment made me spit out my water. Azura is like the only blue haired character in the game and her outfit was identical to her white one only it was in black and had a veil. Not how I expected that scene to go at all when I watched Azura's Nohrian dance cutscene in Japanese.

Edited March 4, 2016 by semolinaro

[Camilla]

I love how Hans going out of control and murdering Scarlet is getting blamed on Corrin for convenience.

Corrin had no intention of hurting Scarlet. They only intended to injure the rebels so that it would appear that they were following King Garon's orders. When Corrin found out that Hans was doing that, they were completely horrified and tried to order Hans to stop. Unfortunately they couldn't stop Hans at the time since Hans was acting on King Garon's orders, so if Corrin stopped Hans and it got back to King Garon everything would be ruined.

[Fallaner]

I almost wish I had the power to save poor Corrin from the confines of IS terrible script. Corrin is a character with so much potential, especially on the Conquest side. But instead we get a clearly morally questionable character who is portrayed in a forcibly positive light while he invades an innocent nation so their mad adoptive father can sit on a magical chair. He failed to communicate or reason with his siblings who supposedly 'love' him but if you talk bad about our daddy then we gotta kill you! Also, one thing that's never really been discussed is why the hell Corrin is a dragon. Like okay, cool you're a dragon, but WHY?? Why are YOU the dragon? Why does no one call out you were born with manakete ears? It's never once explained why you yourself are a dragon but no one else is. I was hoping it would mean you had some dark connections to the dragon gods, similar to Robin's connections with Grima. But nope, you're just a dragon because it's cool to be a dragon. (And you ain't even a cool looking dragon. You look more like a praying mantis than a fearsome reptile).

Also, the dancer moment made me spit out my water. Azura is like the only blue haired character in the game and her outfit was identical to her white one only it was in black and had a veil. Not how I expected that scene to go at all when I watched Azura's Nohrian dance cutscene in Japanese.

[spoiler=Revelation/DLC spoilers]The Dragon thing is KINDA explained in Revelation covertly (through ancient texts if you decode them) and in a DLC. The Avatar is the child of Anankos. Like DIRECT child. Literal, direct descendant. Anankos is their daddy. Their daddy is the silent dragon who eventually tries to kill everything. As you basically have direct dragon blood, it's probably why you can turn into a dragon and the others can't. They may be descended from dragons or have a bit of their power, but you are literally half ancient dragon.

Edited March 4, 2016 by Fallaner

[Azure Sen]

Little hard to do that when you also have to paint the kingdom as evil for the other faction. It makes for an easier situation for story telling with what they were going for. I still don't actually know where anyone got this "greyness" idea from, because I never remember it being mentioned when they talked about the game. From a story telling standpoint though, they clearly wanted to have the kingdom as a whole evil though so that Hoshido had a cut and dry enemy, and Nohr had its story of redemption.

Except in their Iwata Asks interview, Kibayashi confirmed that he was going for a story where both sides would be morally grey; the "evil" faction wouldn't actually be as evil as they first appeared, and the "good" faction wouldn't be as good as they first appeared. How much of this was excised from the script by the IS writing team is unknown, but the point is, they promised it and we didn't get it.