Revised Magic Trinity

[NekoKnight]

Throughout Fire Emblem there have been a number of magic types and trinities. Wind, Fire and Thunder or Anima, Light and Dark. One problem with these magic types is them not being distinguished enough to warrant a division. So how can we 'fix' this? Fates started to give us a lot more tomes with unique effects and I think we could take that even further to make 3 distinct magic types. For the sake of flavor and lore, I'd like Anima, Light and Dark back in the game. There wouldn't be a magic triangle (the Bow, Hidden, Tome triangle is sufficient in my opinion), just three magic types that share a tome weapon rank.

I've decided to draft some ideas for what each 'school' of magic would contain, based on the tomes in Fates. The basic E-A tomes are essentially the same but after that they have unique tomes. Maybe they need better balancing but I'm more interested in their general effect.

[spoiler=Anima]

Notes: The middle magic type. Reasonably strong and accurate.

[spoiler=Light]

Notes: The weaker magic type. 2 less might than the equivalent Anima tomes but +10 hit and avoid.

Runes are unpassable tiles that last a turn or two.

Purge wouldn't be able to target bosses, naturally.

[spoiler=Dark]

Notes: The stronger magic type. 3 more might than the equivalent Anima tome but -10 hit and avoid.

Phantoms are allied units that are a copy of whatever unit that died to summon them with the same equipment but 1 health.

Eclipse wouldn't work on boss enemies.

Stun and Poison are status effects that function the same as they did in Tellius.

Light is the weak but boosting magic type. Reliable team support.

Anima is the middle of the road magic type. Reasonable accuracy and damage.

Dark is the strong but dangerous magic type. Many spells will make you vulnerable but will blow the enemy to pieces if they hit.

It's not just the tomes that would diversify magic, however. The mages would also need some tweaking. I'd like to have Dark Mages be like they are in Awakening, having high defense. Light Mages can be magic walls and classic mages can be a bit stronger offensively but weaker defensively.

What do you guys want for tomes/mages in the future?

[Gradivus.]

Purge would be ridiculous on enemies, you'd basically have no choice but to kill them on turn 1 or lose a unit. EDIT: Maybe make it take 5 turns until that option appears?

I'd be up for a simple Anima > Light > Dark > Anima trinity, the stuff in the OP looks like a good approach to me. I thought about making crits a bit weaker and making Light tomes focus on crit? It depends on the game though.

Edited May 28, 2016 by Gradivus.

[NekoKnight]

You could give the computer a unique Purge that doesn't have the second ability.

Edited May 28, 2016 by NekoKnight

[Camisado]

I feel like some names of the anima tomes would be more fitting for dark tomes, like Ragnarok and Armageddon. The meaning behind these names are pretty dark; Ragnarok is the end of the Norse gods and Armageddon is the place where the last battle is between God and Satan happens. Otherwise I think that it would be fun to have more diversity in magic and mages as it were before.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

My thoughts:

Overall, I am a fan of having the Light - Dark - Anima setup. I disliked Awakening's decision to remove light magic altogether (and then they had the sacred stones to make "Micaiah's Pyre"... what?). And even though Fates trimmed down on the already-limited dark magic options (gr...), they (somewhat) made up for it by introducing the Spirits in addition to tomes, which have been nothing if not interesting. I'm going to assume that your proposed set exists in a world without Spirits.

I feel like some names of the anima tomes would be more fitting for dark tomes, like Ragnarok and Armageddon. The meaning behind these names are pretty dark; Ragnarok is the end of the Norse gods and Armageddon is the place where the last battle is between God and Satan happens. Otherwise I think that it would be fun to have more diversity in magic and mages as it were before.

Just want to second this. Also "Calamity" would be great in Dark. IMO Anima tomes should focus on natural phenomena (you have some good ones, like "Gale", "Hurricane", and "Shock"). Other options could include "Tornado", "Cinder", "Wildfire", and "Blitz". If you'd be open to including water-based spells, "Maelstom" or "Deluge" could be good names. And this may be out of left-field, but what about an "Earthquake" or "Tremor" tome, that calculates damage based on the enemy's defense instead of Res? Kind of like an Anima-Luna, though it should have higher bases. As for balancing, it seems pretty good, except that "Shock" is exactly like "Thunder", but better - maybe give it a minor negative effect, like -20% HP to adjacent allies as well?

As for light magic, making them accurate and avoid-aiding, but low-damage and low-crit seems a good way to go. I like the names, most of them are clearly connected to light, to religion, or to previous FE entries. Balance-wise, Aureola seems a little above-the-level. I get that it's not as strong as most S-rank weapons, but I think it still should have some kind of drawback - say, a modest speed reduction after attacking? I like that you're bringing back Thani, Ivaldi, and the idea of Light Runes. But I'd be remiss to not comment on Purge - Holy Ashera, that side effect is ridiculous. Like, I get how it fits in with the concept of "Purging", but if an enemy got ahold of it, they'd be an instant assassin. Maaaybe it'd be balanced if the effect had a super-low hit rate, and/or caused major damage / stat-reductions to the user, but I think I'd pass.

You could give the computer a unique Purge that doesn't have the second ability.

...Or just do that I guess. *grumble, grumble*

As for Dark magic, I think high-power, but low accuracy and avoid issues is fitting. The names are really good too (though I do think Ragnarok and/or Armageddon could fit well here, if there's space). I really like the idea of tomes inflicting effects like silence, freeze, or poison. Balance-wise, though, it's worth noting that Corruption and Strangle are just Flux with an effect - maybe they should have minor negative side-effects? Like, Corruption drains the user's HP 20% (hey, it takes energy to make a phantom), and Strangle could also self-inflict Silence until the start of your next turn (so, don't use it if you expect to be attacked).

Also, have you thought about accessibility of each magic type? Or are they accessible to all groups? Personally, I would break it up as follows (assuming a Fates-ish model):

ANIMA: Everyone that can use magic, I guess (assuming there are no "Bishops" or "Summoners" or the like)

LIGHT: Mage, Sage, Basara, Sorceror, Strategist

DARK: Dark Mage, Sorceror, Dark Knight, Dark Flier, Witch

If you plan to give everything to everybody... I guess that's fine, but it would be a really large library for a single weapon class. And I feel like Dark Mage isn't all that distinct anymore, if anyone can use Dark Magic.

Anyway, these are just my thoughts. I can tell you've put thought into this system, and it's generally a good one. But, that won't stop me from always finding a few nits to pick, hah hah.

[NekoKnight]

I feel like some names of the anima tomes would be more fitting for dark tomes, like Ragnarok and Armageddon. The meaning behind these names are pretty dark; Ragnarok is the end of the Norse gods and Armageddon is the place where the last battle is between God and Satan happens. Otherwise I think that it would be fun to have more diversity in magic and mages as it were before.

To be fair, Ragnarok is already an "anima" tome in Fates (represented by a fiery explosion). I thought Armageddon gave the sense of fiery destruction, and I didn't want to name a tome "Holocaust".

A lot of FE tomes are named after mythological figures/events without there being a direct correlation to the spell's element. The dark tome "Fenrir" is named after a big wolf in Norse mythology, to give one example.

Just want to second this. Also "Calamity" would be great in Dark. IMO Anima tomes should focus on natural phenomena (you have some good ones, like "Gale", "Hurricane", and "Shock"). Other options could include "Tornado", "Cinder", "Wildfire", and "Blitz". If you'd be open to including water-based spells, "Maelstom" or "Deluge" could be good names. And this may be out of left-field, but what about an "Earthquake" or "Tremor" tome, that calculates damage based on the enemy's defense instead of Res? Kind of like an Anima-Luna, though it should have higher bases. As for balancing, it seems pretty good, except that "Shock" is exactly like "Thunder", but better - maybe give it a minor negative effect, like -20% HP to adjacent allies as well?

Thanks for the naming suggestions. I stuck with wind/thunder/fire for the anima elements based on past games but anima could be expanded into earth or water as well.

In regards to the Shock tome, and other spells with special effects (ex Strangle, Corruption), I gave them the might of an iron weapon in the same way that an Armorslayer or Wyrmslayer has the same might as an Iron Sword when they don't deal effective damage. Why use Thunder/Flux/Shine at all if you have the special effect tome, you may ask? My balancing worked under the assumption that the better tomes would be rarer/more expensive so it would be easier to create forged versions of the weaker tomes.

But I'd be remiss to not comment on Purge - Holy Ashera, that side effect is ridiculous. Like, I get how it fits in with the concept of "Purging", but if an enemy got ahold of it, they'd be an instant assassin. Maaaybe it'd be balanced if the effect had a super-low hit rate, and/or caused major damage / stat-reductions to the user, but I think I'd pass.

Another balancing option is to limit the range on the special effect so it's threatening but not impossible to charge in and counter it.

Also, have you thought about accessibility of each magic type? Or are they accessible to all groups? Personally, I would break it up as follows (assuming a Fates-ish model):

ANIMA: Everyone that can use magic, I guess (assuming there are no "Bishops" or "Summoners" or the like)

LIGHT: Mage, Sage, Basara, Sorceror, Strategist

DARK: Dark Mage, Sorceror, Dark Knight, Dark Flier, Witch

If you plan to give everything to everybody... I guess that's fine, but it would be a really large library for a single weapon class. And I feel like Dark Mage isn't all that distinct anymore, if anyone can use Dark Magic.

Anyway, these are just my thoughts. I can tell you've put thought into this system, and it's generally a good one. But, that won't stop me from always finding a few nits to pick, hah hah.

My idea was to go back to a GBA style of magic classes (but with a shared tome rank), ie each class can only use one school of magic unless they are are special. There would also be skill scrolls (think Shadowgift) that let you use a non-native magic school. I counted all the unique spells effects in Fates (about 8 types) and added that to the basic E-S rank spells for a total of 14 spells for each. That might not seem like a lot but most games actually had very few tomes.

In my imagined class system, it would be

Anima: Mage, Sage, Mage Knight, Pupil, Scholar (Mage and Pupil share Mage Knight as a promote)

Light: Light Mage, Bishop, Seraph Knight (Dark flier), Holy Knight (Sacred Stones era Valkyrie)

Dark: Dark Mage, Necromancer (Druid), Dark Drake (Malig Knight) and Scholar (the only class with natural access to two magic types).

[Sylphid]

This looks great! I agree with posters above that Ragnarok and Armageddon sound more like dark tomes, but that's been discussed enough.

I would like to see siege tomes though to be honest, I always liked those.

I've always liked the idea of AoE tomes, so Shock is a personal favorite.

On anima elements: I've always though I would like to see more ice and water. But in Fire Emblem setting earth always felt like a part dark magic to me. Because Earth Dragons (yeah, not the best reason, but works for me :P)

I'd like to have Dark Mages be like they are in Awakening, having high defense. Light Mages can be magic walls and classic mages can be a bit stronger offensively but weaker defensively.

This might be just me, but this makes light mages sound like just dark mages but with resistance instead of defense. Which just makes them worse since magic classes tend to have high resistance anyways, and since light magic has weakest might it would be even more unwieldy in magic vs magic combat than tomes usually are.

How about having light mages be the speediest magic class, to go with the avoid bonuses and low might of their magic school?

As for what I want to see, armored mages, aka generals with tomes and high defense and resistance (but not Barons, those are different). I also would like to see the spirits from Hoshido's scrolls return since I like them thematically.

[NekoKnight]

This looks great! I agree with posters above that Ragnarok and Armageddon sound more like dark tomes, but that's been discussed enough.

I would like to see siege tomes though to be honest, I always liked those.

I've always liked the idea of AoE tomes, so Shock is a personal favorite.

On anima elements: I've always though I would like to see more ice and water. But in Fire Emblem setting earth always felt like a part dark magic to me. Because Earth Dragons (yeah, not the best reason, but works for me :P)

This might be just me, but this makes light mages sound like just dark mages but with resistance instead of defense. Which just makes them worse since magic classes tend to have high resistance anyways, and since light magic has weakest might it would be even more unwieldy in magic vs magic combat than tomes usually are.

How about having light mages be the speediest magic class, to go with the avoid bonuses and low might of their magic school?

As for what I want to see, armored mages, aka generals with tomes and high defense and resistance (but not Barons, those are different). I also would like to see the spirits from Hoshido's scrolls return since I like them thematically.

Some proposed name changes:

Ragnarok > Wildfire

Armageddon > Pyroclasm

Calamity > Maelstrom (yay a water tome)

Purgatory > Extinction

About Dark Mages vs Light Mages, I'm thinking Dark Mages would have defensive growths more akin to Fates' Dark Knights (15 Defense, 5 Resistance), whereas Light mages would have the opposite. In other words, Dark Mages would be a more like physical classes and could afford (more often) to fight close to the enemy (making use of their Heartseeker skill to offset their poor accuracy). I do like the idea of Light Mages having high speed, which when paired up with the Avoid bonus on the Light tomes could make them like the magic equivalent to Myrmidons.

About Siege tomes, originally I had thought to make Purge/Eclipse/Meteor siege tomes (3-10 range like in earlier games) but they would need a heavier drawback. Maybe "Unable to use tomes next turn" or something.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

Some proposed name changes:

Ragnarok > Wildfire

Armageddon > Pyroclasm

Calamity > Maelstrom (yay a water tome)

Purgatory > Extinction

Ooh, I like all of these - thanks for reading my suggestions! Although, you did have a point that Fates used Ragnarok as a fire tome, which you were just preserving (although I thought it was a weird name originally). Pyroclasm sounds great for a Fire tome (apparently it's a Magic card, too), and Extinction invokes the association of Dark magic with peril and death.

My idea was to go back to a GBA style of magic classes (but with a shared tome rank), ie each class can only use one school of magic unless they are are special. There would also be skill scrolls (think Shadowgift) that let you use a non-native magic school. I counted all the unique spells effects in Fates (about 8 types) and added that to the basic E-S rank spells for a total of 14 spells for each. That might not seem like a lot but most games actually had very few tomes.

In my imagined class system, it would be

Anima: Mage, Sage, Mage Knight, Pupil, Scholar (Mage and Pupil share Mage Knight as a promote)

Light: Light Mage, Bishop, Seraph Knight (Dark flier), Holy Knight (Sacred Stones era Valkyrie)

Dark: Dark Mage, Necromancer (Druid), Dark Drake (Malig Knight) and Scholar (the only class with natural access to two magic types).

This sounds like a pretty good system! I'm assuming most of the promoted classes would have access to staves as well (excepting, possibly, Dark Drake, Scholar, and Seraph Knight)? Shadowgift-esque skills could be good, too - it allows for more variety, but at the cost of a skill slot. P.S. Dark Drake is a way better name than "Malig Knight", hah hah. Then again, I've always been creeped out by the premise of riding a zombie... like, does the wyvern die upon promotion?

As for what I want to see, armored mages, aka generals with tomes and high defense and resistance (but not Barons, those are different). I also would like to see the spirits from Hoshido's scrolls return since I like them thematically.

I am so on board for this idea. To my knowledge, the closest we've gotten to armored mages in official games has been the (unplayable) Barons. Units with high defense and magic power, but at the cost to speed and movement (in my mind, they'd have low-res, but that's certainly debatable) would serve as a neat "polar opposite" of the Pegasus Knight class. And, an answer to the customary mage problem of physical frailty.

[Sylphid]

Some proposed name changes:

Ragnarok > Wildfire

Armageddon > Pyroclasm

Calamity > Maelstrom (yay a water tome)

Purgatory > Extinction

About Dark Mages vs Light Mages, I'm thinking Dark Mages would have defensive growths more akin to Fates' Dark Knights (15 Defense, 5 Resistance), whereas Light mages would have the opposite. In other words, Dark Mages would be a more like physical classes and could afford (more often) to fight close to the enemy (making use of their Heartseeker skill to offset their poor accuracy). I do like the idea of Light Mages having high speed, which when paired up with the Avoid bonus on the Light tomes could make them like the magic equivalent to Myrmidons.

About Siege tomes, originally I had thought to make Purge/Eclipse/Meteor siege tomes (3-10 range like in earlier games) but they would need a heavier drawback. Maybe "Unable to use tomes next turn" or something.

Great names, I especially like Maelstrom and Extintion!

The sort of syngery between stats and skill you describe here is always nice to see, so the idea works really well. Light Mages as "magical myrmidons" is a funny mental image (I'm seeing acrobatic mages/clergy).

For siege tomes, I was thinking "Can't do follow-up attacks, can't land critical hits, can't use offensive skills" would work? More or less a heavier version of what Javelins and such got in Fates (and I would like to see those get a bit less heavy drawbacks). There could be avoid and attack speed penalties instead of some of those too.

This sounds like a pretty good system! I'm assuming most of the promoted classes would have access to staves as well (excepting, possibly, Dark Drake, Scholar, and Seraph Knight)? Shadowgift-esque skills could be good, too - it allows for more variety, but at the cost of a skill slot. P.S. Dark Drake is a way better name than "Malig Knight", hah hah. Then again, I've always been creeped out by the premise of riding a zombie... like, does the wyvern die upon promotion?

I am so on board for this idea. To my knowledge, the closest we've gotten to armored mages in official games has been the (unplayable) Barons. Units with high defense and magic power, but at the cost to speed and movement (in my mind, they'd have low-res, but that's certainly debatable) would serve as a neat "polar opposite" of the Pegasus Knight class. And, an answer to the customary mage problem of physical frailty.

I would prefer more combinations between tomes and other weapon types, rather than numerous tome/staff combos. Though tome/staff combo for each magic school would be nice to have too. Related: Has there been any FE game where there was a playable class for each tome/weapon pair? Awakening and Fates were both missing 2 I think.

I never really though about the lore behind Malig Knights, but that is pretty creepy. Though at least the poor lizard gets resurrected if you reclass to Wyvern Lord (Also, I prefer the Japanese name Revenant Knight to Malig Knight)

I was also thinking of a polar opposite to Pegasus Knights at first, but then thought a full-blown tank class, with both defense and resistance being one of the highest among classes would be nice to have. It would pretty much have to have low everything else to compensate though.

Either way would work for me, really.

[NekoKnight]

This sounds like a pretty good system! I'm assuming most of the promoted classes would have access to staves as well (excepting, possibly, Dark Drake, Scholar, and Seraph Knight)? Shadowgift-esque skills could be good, too - it allows for more variety, but at the cost of a skill slot. P.S. Dark Drake is a way better name than "Malig Knight", hah hah. Then again, I've always been creeped out by the premise of riding a zombie... like, does the wyvern die upon promotion?

The promoted Tome + Staff classes are Bishop, Sage, Necromancer and Holy Knight. The others are physical/magic hybrids, Mage Knight (Sword/Tome), Dark Drake (Axe/Tome), Seraph Knight (Lance/Tome), plus the Scholar that uses Anima + Dark.

Considering my idea of Dark Mages has them promoting either to Necromancer or Dark Drake, a zombie dragon seems appropriate enough. Or it could be a mage dragon.

I was also thinking of a polar opposite to Pegasus Knights at first, but then thought a full-blown tank class, with both defense and resistance being one of the highest among classes would be nice to have. It would pretty much have to have low everything else to compensate though.

Either way would work for me, really.

You would need some powerful checks on that class if they were good at both Defense and Resistance. Generals are only good at one and they got the Armor trait to give them a weakness. It's a neat idea, however. I wonder what the class would be called.

Edited June 2, 2016 by NekoKnight