The Absolute Worst Fire Emblem Characters.

[Shadow Mir]

58 minutes ago, SpearOfLies said:

As I said before, I cannot take you serious because of your arguments. We all well know that fates have bad hp growth rate. There are quite amount can be oneshotted and as you said there are many glass cannon(thought I hadn't any issue about amount of my tanks). So if regardless my unit will be oneshotted, why should I care about -20 evad? I get something that can easier be actived(your issue about chance based sol) than luna, dragon fang, astra and lethality and can do far more damage(lethality aside cause is OHKO skill).

Because I consider banking on critical hits a terrible strategy, ESPECIALLY if you already have one foot in the grave, like would be the case if you were relying on Vantage. Not to mention that if you can't counter, it doesn't mean jack nor shit. On top of that, crits in general are MUCH more powerful in enemy hands than player hands. Oh, and my glass cannon argument (which I wouldn't really say it was about so much as it was more about the other trope that it could overlap with (Fragile Speedster)) was largely centered on Birthright (whose characters generally tend to have lower HP and Defense growths than the ones on Conquest), where killer weapons are unobtainable anyway. All that being said, I generally found killer weapons lackluster in Fates relative to other weapons. Also, as far as I'm concerned, Lethality is the worst activation skill in the game because its activation rate is just too low (Skill/4? No thank you).

Edited February 21, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[SpearOfLies]

1 hour ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Because I consider banking on critical hits a terrible strategy, ESPECIALLY if you already have one foot in the grave, like would be the case if you were relying on Vantage. Not to mention that if you can't counter, it doesn't mean jack nor shit. On top of that, crits in general are MUCH more powerful in enemy hands than player hands. Oh, and my glass cannon argument (which I wouldn't really say it was about so much as it was more about the other trope that it could overlap with (Fragile Speedster)) was largely centered on Birthright, where killer weapons are unobtainable anyway. All that being said, I generally found killer weapons lackluster in Fates relative to other weapons..

Banking on critical hits is as well banking any other do more damage skill(luna, dragon fang, astra, vengeance and rean heaven) strategy. It's pointless argument while you said that luna and dragon fang are good skill.(and also pavise and aegis than make less credible your sol is bad argument).

 

I said that vantage is my favorite basic class skill and I also said that I hadn't chance to use it in Birthright. So what point to use vantage argument?

 

You can buy killing weapon from other people's castle. Birthright give more resources than Conquest. There are also chance to get a killing weapon from random castle talk and reward from visit other castle. Unobtainable? Really?

 

One thing is your personal taste and another thing is objective fact. I personally dislike Ryouma and Takumi so I didn't use them in my Birthright playthough. This make them bad unit? Nope, there are objective the ones of most broken unit. I dislike horse unit so I class change Xander to Wyvern Lord and Leo to a sorcerer. This make Paladin and Dark Knight bad class? Nope, I prefer Peri as Paladin and I start to prefer Dark Knight more than Sorcerer because I feel Sorcerer is just bad class. So if you don't like vantage, sol and crit, this doesn't mean they are bad.

Edited February 21, 2017 by SpearOfLies

[Shadow Mir]

50 minutes ago, SpearOfLies said:

Banking on critical hits is as well banking any other do more damage skill(luna, dragon fang, astra, vengeance and rean heaven) strategy. It's pointless argument while you said that luna and dragon fang are good skill.(and also pavise and aegis than make less credible your sol is bad argument).

 

I said that vantage is my favorite basic class skill and I also said that I hadn't chance to use it in Birthright. So what point to use vantage argument?

 

You can buy killing weapon from other people's castle. Birthright give more resources than Conquest. There are also chance to get a killing weapon from random castle talk and reward from visit other castle. Unobtainable? Really?

 

One thing is your personal taste and another thing is objective fact. I personally dislike Ryouma and Takumi so I didn't use them in my Birthright playthough. This make them bad unit? Nope, there are objective the ones of most broken unit. I dislike horse unit so I class change Xander to Wyvern Lord and Leo to a sorcerer. This make Paladin and Dark Knight bad class? Nope, I prefer Peri as Paladin and I start to prefer Dark Knight more than Sorcerer because I feel Sorcerer is just bad class. So if you don't like vantage, sol and crit, this doesn't mean they are bad.

Except most of those other ones don't make me lose a lot of damage potential if they don't pan out, unlike using killer weapons (by which I specifically mean the buyable ones) and praying for crits. And like I said earlier, Vengeance and Rend Heaven are unreliable for other reasons (Vengeance requires low HP, Rend Heaven is dependent on the enemy's stats; to be fair, so is Luna, but unless you fought an enemy with practically zero defense, Luna would always add damage).

Then why is Vantage your favorite class skill? Because of Awakening, where it was actually good?

No you can't. Weapons that are limited in supply, like effective weapons for example, can't be bought at other people's castles. Also, the only weapons you could get from castles that have a notable crit rate are Beruka's Axe and Odin's Grimoire, both of which have some nasty downsides, especially the former (both have a whopping -20 crit evade penalty, and if you did your homework, you'd realize why this is a bad thing; the former also happens to be weak to follow-ups, meaning you get doubled more easily, and on top of that, both of them are rather inaccurate, which can be very costly considering the downsides), and guess what? Neither of those are obtainable in Birthright (short of getting enough Battle Points, at least).

Anything can be good if you ignore what makes them bad. That's how I see it.

Edited February 21, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[SpearOfLies]

15 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Except most of those other ones don't make me lose a lot of damage potential if they don't pan out, unlike using killer weapons (by which I specifically mean the buyable ones) and praying for crits. And like I said earlier, Vengeance and Rend Heaven are unreliable for other reasons (Vengeance requires low HP, Rend Heaven is dependent on the enemy's stats; to be fair, so is Luna, but unless you fought an enemy with practically zero defense, Luna would always add damage).

Then why is Vantage your favorite class skill? Because of Awakening, where it was actually good?

No you can't. Weapons that are limited in supply, like effective weapons for example, can't be bought at other people's castles. Also, the only weapons you could get from castles that have a notable crit rate are Beruka's Axe and Odin's Grimoire, both of which have some nasty downsides, especially the former (both have a whopping -20 crit evade penalty, and if you did your homework, you'd realize why this is a bad thing; the former also happens to be weak to follow-ups, meaning you get doubled more easily), and guess what? Neither of those are obtainable in Birthright (short of getting enough Battle Points, at least).

Anything can be good if you ignore what makes them bad. That's how I see it.

Crit and Arthur is really bad, yeah(sarcasm).

 

I said that vantage is my favorite BASIC CLASS skill. There are many advance class skill better, it's obviously.

 

I thought it was infinite. Never feel need to buy it anyway. There are still club and shuriken.

 

And you ignore one of my previous argument. Did you put your killing weapon on your tank or in a character with bad strength or magic growth?

 

Anything can be good if used in the correct way and can be bad if used in the wrong way. But something can be more better and something can be more worse.

 

I have really hard time to take you seriously.

[Moblin Major General]

Honestly, I think the best proc skill is Ignis. A character with high Skill, Strength, and Magic can be nearly unstoppable with it. Sure, it's limited to only a few units (a maximum of 3 in Awakening, and only as many Fell Brands as you are willing to farm from Hidden Truths 1), but it's power is undeniable. As for Tier 1 skills, any +2 skill is good, as are Lunge, Poison Strike, Darting Blow, and Demoiselle/Gentilhomme.

1 hour ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Anything can be good if you ignore what makes them bad. That's how I see it.

And vice versa. So many times, anything you post seems to have a similar tone to "Adam Ruins Everything" except it comes across as serious. Very few times in Fire Emblem is something (or someone) so bad that it's unusable. Sure, there are problems with banking on crits or procs, but trying to keep them from happening, short of only using Bronze Weapons, isn't really possible.

 

5 minutes ago, SpearOfLies said:

Crit and Arthur is really bad, yeah(sarcasm).

Mangs is the last person you should be pointing to when talking about good strategy. He makes a great deal of tactical errors and banks too heavily on some things I don't necessarily trust. Sure, Berserker Arthur is an almost unstoppable whirlwind of destruction, but put him in front of a Killing Edge Swordmaster, and you might as well say goodbye, even if he happens to be wielding a Dual Club.

[SpearOfLies]

1 minute ago, Hylian Air Force said:

Mangs is the last person you should be pointing to when talking about good strategy. He makes a great deal of tactical errors and banks too heavily on some things I don't necessarily trust. Sure, Berserker Arthur is an almost unstoppable whirlwind of destruction, but put him in front of a Killing Edge Swordmaster, and you might as well say goodbye, even if he happens to be wielding a Dual Club.

Never said that mangs is good tactician. Just put an more clear fact that what he (the one who are saying that sol, vantage and crit are bad) saying is stupid. Mangs is just playing quite brainless most of times, continues making rookie mistakes. Not like I don't make mistakes. But my mistake is more about personal preference than anything else.

Put an axe user who have terrible dodge(critic avoid) against a swordmaster with crit, is quite obviously who have most chance of win. But this doesn't help his argument crit is bad. It basically saying that axe are bad because there is axebreaker.

18 minutes ago, Hylian Air Force said:

Honestly, I think the best proc skill is Ignis. A character with high Skill, Strength, and Magic can be nearly unstoppable with it. Sure, it's limited to only a few units (a maximum of 3 in Awakening, and only as many Fell Brands as you are willing to farm from Hidden Truths 1), but it's power is undeniable. As for Tier 1 skills, any +2 skill is good, as are Lunge, Poison Strike, Darting Blow, and Demoiselle/Gentilhomme.

There is quite amount of basic class skill(tier 1) that are good in fates. But I miss anathema from awakening. I really like that skill.

[Shadow Mir]

50 minutes ago, SpearOfLies said:

Crit and Arthur is really bad, yeah(sarcasm).

 

I said that vantage is my favorite BASIC CLASS skill. There are many advance class skill better, it's obviously.

 

I thought it was infinite. Never feel need to buy it anyway. There are still club and shuriken.

 

And you ignore one of my previous argument. Did you put your killing weapon on your tank or in a character with bad strength or magic growth?

 

Anything can be good if used in the correct way and can be bad if used in the wrong way. But something can be more better and something can be more worse.

 

I have really hard time to take you seriously.

See what Hylian Air Force said. Also, I still consider Arthur bad, because I shouldn't have to luck out every time I try to use someone, which is the case with Arthur because (1) he can't hit worth a damn, especially early on, (2) he's vulnerable to critical hits, which is a Very Bad Thing (FFS, I consider it even worse than being weak to Stealth Rock in Pokemon!), and (3) he's not nearly durable enough to make up for (2) - I'm not comfortable toting a reset hazard around.

Whatever. 

The club is laughably inaccurate, and also drops your crit evade, which is an instant dealbreaker. The shuriken is used mostly by classes that are not exactly known for hitting hard.

Neither, because pretty much 10 times out of 10, there are better options. Weapons-wise.

35 minutes ago, Hylian Air Force said:

Honestly, I think the best proc skill is Ignis. A character with high Skill, Strength, and Magic can be nearly unstoppable with it. Sure, it's limited to only a few units (a maximum of 3 in Awakening, and only as many Fell Brands as you are willing to farm from Hidden Truths 1), but it's power is undeniable. As for Tier 1 skills, any +2 skill is good, as are Lunge, Poison Strike, Darting Blow, and Demoiselle/Gentilhomme.

And vice versa. So many times, anything you post seems to have a similar tone to "Adam Ruins Everything" except it comes across as serious. Very few times in Fire Emblem is something (or someone) so bad that it's unusable. Sure, there are problems with banking on crits or procs, but trying to keep them from happening, short of only using Bronze Weapons, isn't really possible.

The issue with Ignis imo is that due to how it works, it really limits how many people can make use of it (not an issue in Awakening because of who gets it, but outside of Corrin, how many units in Fates can actually get any mileage out of it? Saizo?). In Fates, it's also tied to a DLC that's just annoying (have fun with a boss who can be annoying to hit, and can only reasonably be damaged by one character).

I'm just not good at holding back. That is all.

12 minutes ago, SpearOfLies said:

Never said that mangs is good tactician. Just put an more clear fact that what he (the one who are saying that sol, vantage and crit are bad) saying is stupid. Mangs is just playing quite brainless most of times, continues making rookie mistakes. Not like I don't make mistakes. But my mistake is more about personal preference than anything else.

Because I refuse to give much in the way of credit to stuff that I wouldn't rely on? Really? 

Edited February 21, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[SpearOfLies]

4 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

See what Hylian Air Force said. Also, I still consider Arthur bad, because I shouldn't have to luck out every time I try to use someone, which is the case with Arthur because (1) he can't hit worth a damn, especially early on, (2) he's vulnerable to critical hits, which is a Very Bad Thing (FFS, I consider it even worse than being weak to Stealth Rock in Pokemon!), and (3) he's not nearly durable enough to make up for (2) - I'm not comfortable toting a reset hazard around.

Whatever. 

The club is laughably inaccurate, and also drops your crit evade, which is an instant dealbreaker. The shuriken is used mostly by classes that are not exactly known for hitting hard.

Neither, because pretty much 10 times out of 10, there are better options.

The issue with Ignis imo is that due to how it works, it really limits how many people can make use of it (not an issue in Awakening because of who gets it, but outside of Corrin, how many units in Fates can actually get any mileage out of it? Saizo?). In Fates, it's also tied to a DLC that's just annoying (have fun with a boss who can be annoying to hit, and can only reasonably be damaged by one character).

I'm just not good at holding back. That is all.

Because I refuse to give much in the way of credit to stuff that I wouldn't rely on? Really? 

 

2 hours ago, SpearOfLies said:

One thing is your personal taste and another thing is objective fact. I personally dislike Ryouma and Takumi so I didn't use them in my Birthright playthough. This make them bad unit? Nope, there are objective the ones of most broken unit. I dislike horse unit so I class change Xander to Wyvern Lord and Leo to a sorcerer. This make Paladin and Dark Knight bad class? Nope, I prefer Peri as Paladin and I start to prefer Dark Knight more than Sorcerer because I feel Sorcerer is just bad class. So if you don't like vantage, sol and crit, this doesn't mean they are bad.

 

I think both Saizo and Kagero have something to say about they don't hit hard. Kaze nothing cause his strength is shit.

My most problem is your arguments don't make any sense.

[Shadow Mir]

1 minute ago, SpearOfLies said:

 

 

I think both Saizo and Kagero have something to say about they don't hit hard. Kaze nothing cause his strength is shit.

My most problem is your arguments don't make any sense.

I said "classes", not "units", dammit. Master Ninja has a low Str cap, and Maid/Butler ain't much better off. Which leaves Mechanist and Dread Fighter.

[Moblin Major General]

6 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Which leaves Mechanist and Dread Fighter.

One of which is gimmicky at best, and the other requires you to pay money.

[SpearOfLies]

6 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

I said "classes", not "units", dammit. Master Ninja has a low Str cap, and Maid/Butler ain't much better off. Which leaves Mechanist and Dread Fighter.

Fate is not awakening. Their str cap doesn't matter so much. Unless you play birthright and revelations like awakening and capping all the stats which you don't really need. But to make you understand how low make sense your arguments is, the master ninja have the highest skl cap so they have the more chance to actived crit and all other proc skill to do more damage making they low str cap argument more pointless.

[Shadow Mir]

10 minutes ago, SpearOfLies said:

Fate is not awakening. Their str cap doesn't matter so much. Unless you play birthright and revelations like awakening and capping all the stats which you don't really need. But to make you understand how low make sense your arguments is, the master ninja have the highest skl cap so they have the more chance to actived crit and all other proc skill to do more damage making they low str cap argument more pointless.

*sigh* Now whose argument's not making much sense...? Skill generally is one of the least important stats to have a high cap in. And let's not forget that the Barb Shuriken is a pathetically weak weapon with only 4 Mt.

[SpearOfLies]

1 hour ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

*sigh* Now whose argument's not making much sense...? Skill generally is one of the least important stats to have a high cap in. And let's not forget that the Barb Shuriken is a pathetically weak weapon with only 4 Mt.

I don't feel need to explain them all(because I have already done most of it).

So I will just point Luna>Rend Heaven argument.

First at all Basara is bad mage class. What point with Rend Heaven? Magic Rend Heaven is pointless against 80% of enemy. Against mage class(oni chieftain exclude) is better use your ninja or maid to kill them. Basara don't give at mage anything good(Oni chieftain are a lot better). 

This make Rend Heaven a bad skill? Nope, I said before anything used correctly are good and anything used wrongly are bad. I believe most of enemies have higher str than def. Even they are more or less same mean the damage bonus of Physical Rend Heaven are equal to Physical Luna.

Rend Heaven have higher chance to be actived than Luna.

Magic luna is better than Magic Rend Heaven but I feel fate make most of magic class bad.

So to me Luna and Rend Heaven are more or less same. If happen good. If not I always have a back up plan like any chance based things aside from hit chance. But saying than Rend Heaven is bad skill while Luna is a good skill is nosense. There better way to kill a low str - def unit than bonus damage from luna.

 

Edited February 21, 2017 by SpearOfLies

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, SpearOfLies said:

I don't feel need to explain them all(because I have already done most of it).

So I will just point Luna>Rend Heaven argument.

First at all Basara is bad mage class. What point with Rend Heaven? Magic Rend Heaven is pointless against 80% of enemy. Against mage class(oni chieftain exclude) is better use your ninja or maid to kill them. Basara don't give at mage anything good(Oni chieftain are a lot better). 

This make Rend Heaven a bad skill? Nope, I said before anything used correctly are good and anything used wrongly are bad. I believe most of enemies have higher str than def. Even they are more or less same mean the damage bonus of Physical Rend Heaven are equal to Physical Luna.

Rend Heaven have higher chance to be actived than Luna.

Magic luna is better than Magic Rend Heaven but I feel fate make most of magic class bad.

So to me Luna and Rend Heaven are more or less same. If happen good. If not I always have a back up plan like any chance based things aside from hit chance. But saying than Rend Heaven are bad skill while Luna is a good skill is nosense. There better way to kill a low str - def unit than bonus damage from luna 

 

Likewise, I feel I did a good enough job explaining why Arthur sucks, for starters, and maybe others.

As far as I'm concerned, I don't see much reason to promote into Basara over Spear Master or Onmyoji, because most everyone who can access it tends to slant  in one direction or the other, in addition to not caring for the skills (Rend Heaven, you already covered, and Quixotic is a double-edged sword that helps the enemy more than the player). And I'm not a fan of Oni Chieftain either (I'm just unimpressed by its skills, among other issues), but I digress.

You're right that Rend Heaven activates more and tends to do more damage, but on the other hand, I'm not a fan of the part where it depends on the enemy's offenses (since unless the class in question is a class that uses both Str and Mag, there's always the chance that I get a big fat goose egg out of Rend Heaven, which especially tends to happen to mages - Luna, on the other hand, is always welcome).

I never said Rend Heaven was bad - only hit-or-miss. The only procs I consider bad are Lethality and Vengeance.

Edited February 21, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[SpearOfLies]

 

 

34 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Likewise, I feel I did a good enough job explaining why Arthur sucks, for starters, and maybe others.

As far as I'm concerned, I don't see much reason to promote into Basara over Spear Master or Onmyoji, because most everyone who can access it tends to slant  in one direction or the other, in addition to not caring for the skills (Rend Heaven, you already covered, and Quixotic is a double-edged sword that helps the enemy more than the player). And I'm not a fan of Oni Chieftain either (I'm just unimpressed by its skills, among other issues), but I digress.

You're right that Rend Heaven activates more and tends to do more damage, but on the other hand, I'm not a fan of the part where it depends on the enemy's offenses (since unless the class in question is a class that uses both Str and Mag, there's always the chance that I get a big fat goose egg out of Rend Heaven, which especially tends to happen to mages - Luna, on the other hand, is always welcome).

I never said Rend Heaven was bad - only hit-or-miss. The only procs I consider bad are Lethality and Vengeance.

As I said, you pick Rend heaven only for fight physically against strenght based enemy. There are far better way to kill a mage than use you Rend heaven user or your Luna user( your great knight cannot tank it).

You didn't explain why Arthur. Just why you don't like him.

Well, at least this last comment appear more like your personal opinion. I guess it's a improvement.

 

[Sias]

On 20.2.2017 at 10:19 PM, Levant Mir Celestia said:

I don't know what game you've been playing, because I find that this trope tends to apply to many a Hoshidan character, and some of them are also this trope. I could count the number of Hoshidan characters who can reliably stand up to more than one or two hits on one hand.

I ignored it because at the time I didn't really give it much thought compared to what I did respond to. Anyways, skills I'd consider good are Renewal, Luna, Dragon Fang (though that one tends to have limited distribution), HP +5, Miracle, Pavise, Aegis (admittedly, both of those are level 15 skills), and Astra to an extent. Also, I disagree on Vengeance and Rend Heaven, because the former requires the unit to be at low HP to be effective (and considering that Fates has been dubbed Low HP Emblem, that's a problem for what should be obvious reasons), and the latter tends to be, shall I say, hit-or-miss. Going back to Sol, whilst I might not have enough healers to cover everyone, Sol is no substitute for a healer or even a concoction because it's chance-based.

Before I weigh in further on the discussion, I'd like to talk some more about what actually makes a skill good in your opinion, because I really don't get how you can call Sol bad while listing PavGis as good stuff at the same time?

I dunno, but I actually think that those three are pretty similar: They're all defensive skills that lower your need to heal (either due to damage reduction or direct recovery), completely chance-based and neither should be taken into consideration for an unlucky worst case scenario. I'd still give Sol the edge over the other ones however due to earlier availability and the fact that it's easier to get good healing from it than it is to achieve high damage reduction from PavGis. Most of your tanks should be able to do at least decent damage to enemies with Sol, but the decrease from PavGis only gets really good when your unit takes high damage - in which case it probably shouldn't have been sent into the battle to begin with. Mind you, I don't call Sol amazing or anything, but I just believe it isn't as bad as your're making it out to be, especially compared to what seems to be some of your favourites.

Because finally, there's Miracle. It's probably the first thing I would throw out of someone's skill list as soon as I'm able to, so I really don't get its appeal? From your posts so far I thought you'd be a person that values secure and safe solutions without the need to rely on pure luck for your strategy, but doesn't Miracle do exactly that? It has no effect at all unless you screw up and commit a serious mistake (someone taking lethal damage), and even then, there's like a chance of only about a third (with capped luck in an optimized scenario) for it to do something. Honestly, that's... really not what I'd like to put my money on.

[SpearOfLies]

2 minutes ago, Sias said:

Before I weigh in further on the discussion, I'd like to talk some more about what actually makes a skill good in your opinion, because I really don't get how you can call Sol bad while listing PavGis as good stuff at the same time?

 

I dunno, but I actually think that those three are pretty similar: They're all defensive skills that lower your need to heal (either due to damage reduction or direct recovery), completely chance-based and neither should be taken into consideration for an unlucky worst case scenario. I'd still give Sol the edge over the other ones however due to earlier availability and the fact that it's easier to get good healing from it than it is to achieve high damage reduction from PavGis. Most of your tanks should be able to do at least decent damage to enemies with Sol, but the decrease from PavGis only gets really good when your unit takes high damage - in which case it probably shouldn't have been sent into the battle to begin with. Mind you, I don't call Sol amazing or anything, but I just believe it isn't as bad as your're making it out to be, especially compared to what seems to be some of your favourites.

 

Because finally, there's Miracle. It's probably the first thing I would throw out of someone's skill list as soon as I'm able to, so I really don't get its appeal? From your posts so far I thought you'd be a person that values secure and safe solutions without the need to rely on pure luck for your strategy, but doesn't Miracle do exactly that? It has no effect at all unless you screw up and commit a serious mistake (someone taking lethal damage), and even then, there's like a chance of only about a third (with capped luck in an optimized scenario) for it to do something. Honestly, that's... really not what I'd like to put my money on.

 

As I said, I cannot take him serious. His arguments don't make sense with skills he picked aside for arguments be serf contradictory. I would give more credits to someone who pick blow and faire types skills which still be very solid skills.

[Just call me AL]

21 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Likewise, I'd argue that most of the units that get Sol in Fates (without seal shenanigans, at least - remember that you only get so many seals to go around for most of the game) are hardly fantastic.

And those that can get Sol in Awakening without grinding are fantastic? Please. In both cases, they're decent at best. The only difference is that Sol in Fates can be given to units who are indeed fantastic without it having to be a G2 unit, whereas the only units in Awakening that are fantastic that can get Sol are two G1 units (neither of whom start off as a Fighter/Merc) and about 1/2 of the G2 units.

21 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

And the lower stats all around is a point against Sol, from where I'm standing.

Not necessarily. Considering that Sol's more easily accessible in Fates than it is in Awakening. Compare reclassing to Hero and staying in it for only 3 levels without a level reset to reclassing to Hero and staying in it until Lvl 10 before you can reclass again into another promoted class.

21 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Maybe, but most of those units you mentioned are pretty slow, and Camilla, once again, tends to eat random crits that may severely wound her, if not kill her outright

Not slow enough to get doubled by enemies. And as for Camilla, why do I feel like you've used this same sort of argument against Stefan being a good unit in PoR? Do you even know how often it will be that a unit in ANY FE, let alone Fates, will get hit by a random crit? News flash: It's not a common occurrence. Never-mind that Camilla has a decent Luck base, and her Luck won't be much different from anyone else's. Granted, Camilla does indeed have a stat where she's weak in, but it ain't Luck, it's HP, i.e. the reason why she would like a skill like Sol in the first place.

21 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

(and ditto for Sophie, depending on her mother)

Not really. And again, getting hit by a random crit isn't a common occurrence.

21 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

I was assuming that (the little sisters join in chapter 7 on their respective routes). 

Well then let me rephrase that: Wait until at least the earliest opportunity for you to modify Sakura's/Elise's inventory at the base, or one chapter after then, in order to have the easiest time tackling the Before Awakening map.

21 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

I don't think Vantage is all that great in Fates since most of the stuff you could use in conjunction with it got nerfed (Vengeance got its activation rate decreased, 1-2 range melee weapons were nerfed, Fates having lower stats all around, particularly the varied HP caps [this also hurts Vengeance], pair up and braves getting nerfed).

Hence why I suggested for it to be used in conjunction with Sol for some extra defense. Or on an Ophelia w/Awakening, since she's easily one of the units who's an expert crit-dealer, especially as a Sorcerer, i.e. a class that takes full advantage of her own personal skill AND has an innate crit boost.

Edited February 22, 2017 by Just call me AL

[Shadow Mir]

23 hours ago, Sias said:

Before I weigh in further on the discussion, I'd like to talk some more about what actually makes a skill good in your opinion, because I really don't get how you can call Sol bad while listing PavGis as good stuff at the same time?

 

I dunno, but I actually think that those three are pretty similar: They're all defensive skills that lower your need to heal (either due to damage reduction or direct recovery), completely chance-based and neither should be taken into consideration for an unlucky worst case scenario. I'd still give Sol the edge over the other ones however due to earlier availability and the fact that it's easier to get good healing from it than it is to achieve high damage reduction from PavGis. Most of your tanks should be able to do at least decent damage to enemies with Sol, but the decrease from PavGis only gets really good when your unit takes high damage - in which case it probably shouldn't have been sent into the battle to begin with. Mind you, I don't call Sol amazing or anything, but I just believe it isn't as bad as your're making it out to be, especially compared to what seems to be some of your favourites.

 

Because finally, there's Miracle. It's probably the first thing I would throw out of someone's skill list as soon as I'm able to, so I really don't get its appeal? From your posts so far I thought you'd be a person that values secure and safe solutions without the need to rely on pure luck for your strategy, but doesn't Miracle do exactly that? It has no effect at all unless you screw up and commit a serious mistake (someone taking lethal damage), and even then, there's like a chance of only about a third (with capped luck in an optimized scenario) for it to do something. Honestly, that's... really not what I'd like to put my money on.

 

Miracle is... more of a fail-safe, shall I say. Of course, in an ideal situation, it isn't something I want to rely on, but if things go to hell, I just might be thankful I had it, that's all. That being said, I do gravitate toward high Luck units (and deem most units with low Luck *cough Arthur hack* liabilities), so that might be why. Also, some of the other skills that I had considered good slipped my mind at the time, admittedly (seals, Darting Blow, Poison Strike, Locktouch), Movement +1, Lunge, Quick Draw, Strong Riposte).

Edited February 23, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[skabahk]

I'm at the end of ch.3 in Gaiden and Robin just died because he STILL had 3 def. like wtf. Also only did like 1 dmg right before he died. Also Eirika rng fucked me on one of my fe8 runs, only hit 6 pwr by the end of the game. That's ONE growth in str. Colm freaking owned her on that run... which is pretty sad...

[Just call me AL]

On 2017年2月21日 at 3:03 PM, Levant Mir Celestia said:

The issue with Ignis, imo, is that due to how it works, it really limits how many people can make use of it. Which isn't an issue in Awakening because of who gets it, but outside of Corrin, how many units in Fates can actually get any mileage out of it? Saizo?

Also Leo and child units such as Dwyer, Forrest, Asugi, and children with magic moms such as Elise!Shiro.

Edited February 23, 2017 by Just call me AL

[Dunal]

@Levant Mir Celestia: You're constantly commenting how bad Arthur is... When a forged bronze axe solves almost every issue he has. +2 is fine for most of the game.

Nyx is a similar case with a +2 fire (then a Lightning later on). 

No unit in Conquest is bad. Odin's the hardest to make work and he's not terrible with a Nosferatu or class change.

Edited February 23, 2017 by DLuna

[Shadow Mir]

2 hours ago, DLuna said:

@Levant Mir Celestia: You're constantly commenting how bad Arthur is... When a forged bronze axe solves almost every issue he has. +2 is fine for most of the game.

Nyx is a similar case with a +2 fire (then a Lightning later on). 

No unit in Conquest is bad. Odin's the hardest to make work and he's not terrible with a Nosferatu or class change.

Pfft, Fates forging. Also, I am not so soft as to think there's no such thing as a bad unit in Conquest.

On February 21, 2017 at 6:33 PM, SpearOfLies said:

 

 

As I said, you pick Rend heaven only for fight physically against strenght based enemy. There are far better way to kill a mage than use you Rend heaven user or your Luna user( your great knight cannot tank it).

You didn't explain why Arthur. Just why you don't like him.

Well, at least this last comment appear more like your personal opinion. I guess it's a improvement.

 

Except by my count, there's a grand total of one physical class that Rend Heaven has any real advantage over Luna against - Berserkers. Also, you don't see Rend Heaven's situationality as a disadvantage? Because I do. 

From where I'm standing, I'd say I did both. Oh, and remember all that stuff you said about mages sucking in Fates? I just so happen to think fighters suck in Fates.

On February 21, 2017 at 7:08 PM, Just call me AL said:

And those that can get Sol in Awakening without grinding are fantastic? Please. In both cases, they're decent at best. The only difference is that Sol in Fates can be given to units who are indeed fantastic without it having to be a G2 unit, whereas the only units in Awakening that are fantastic that can get Sol are two G1 units (neither of whom start off as a Fighter/Merc) and about 1/2 of the G2 units.

Not necessarily. Considering that Sol's more easily accessible in Fates than it is in Awakening. Compare reclassing to Hero and staying in it for only 3 levels without a level reset to reclassing to Hero and staying in it until Lvl 10 before you can reclass again into another promoted class.

Not slow enough to get doubled by enemies. And as for Camilla, why do I feel like you've used this same sort of argument against Stefan being a good unit in PoR? Do you even know how often it will be that a unit in ANY FE, let alone Fates, will get hit by a random crit? News flash: It's not a common occurrence. Never-mind that Camilla has a decent Luck base, and her Luck won't be much different from anyone else's. Granted, Camilla does indeed have a stat where she's weak in, but it ain't Luck, it's HP, i.e. the reason why she would like a skill like Sol in the first place.

Not really. And again, getting hit by a random crit isn't a common occurrence.

Well then let me rephrase that: Wait until at least the earliest opportunity for you to modify Sakura's/Elise's inventory at the base, or one chapter after then, in order to have the easiest time tackling the Before Awakening map.

Hence why I suggested for it to be used in conjunction with Sol for some extra defense. Or on an Ophelia w/Awakening, since she's easily one of the units who's an expert crit-dealer, especially as a Sorcerer, i.e. a class that takes full advantage of her own personal skill AND has an innate crit boost.

I don't think the units that can access Sol in Awakening are that good either. And while you can use seals to get it on other units in Fates, (1) this requires building up supports, and (2) you only have a limited amount of seals to go around before the level 3 shop. 

Well, it's true that Sol is more easily accessible in Fates, yes.

Well, that's true, at least. Though Silas might have to worry about being doubled in Revelations, what with coming with only 12 base speed. Also, I don't follow why you deny Luck being Camilla's weakest stat and say it's HP instead, since out of the Nohrian units, she has one of the worst luck growths, only beating Nyx and Arthur. Anyway, Camilla's luck may not be Arthur-level awful, but with 2 points of luck equalling one point of crit evade, it's still low enough that crits are a potential issue, more so in Revelation than in Conquest (it takes a while before Conquest throws promoted units at you regularly - around chapter 16). Hell, by the time I finished my Conquest playthrough, I wound up needing to get Veteran Intuition for both her and Sophie.

Maybe, but it all means naught if Chrom's AI doesn't cooperate.

I already countered both of those (particularly Awakening, which all of one unit - Felicia - can have without needing to wait until the game's practically over).

[Dunal]

6 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Pfft, Fates forging.

That's the same as going "Pfft, Fates weapon buying'".

Bronze weapons only cost 500g. For a +2 you just need 2000g. That's the same amount... as buying a steel weapon. 

And it depends what you mean by "bad". Sure there's quite a few mediocre units (although Arthur isn't one of them -- his availability is great and LCK is his only major flaw aside from middling accuracy early... both completely fixed by a forge) but no unit has truly bad payoff and while some come a bit underleveled, that's not enough to make them outright bad. Although Odin arguably comes fairly close.

[SpearOfLies]

9 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Except by my count, there's a grand total of one physical class that Rend Heaven has any real advantage over Luna against - Berserkers. Also, you don't see Rend Heaven's situationality as a disadvantage? Because I do. 

From where I'm standing, I'd say I did both. Oh, and remember all that stuff you said about mages sucking in Fates? I just so happen to think fighters suck in Fates.

They have similar damage on most of case but Rend Heaven have higher chance, far higher chance. Which also make your argument about Sol chance base very stupid.

Physical Rend Heaven useless against mage? Are you really think about use a great knight(one of unit have bad res) fight against mages because is luna is more useful than Rend Heaven against them? When have other unit thats can far more easy kill a mage or weak them without get hard retaliated?