Unbuyable Weapons - the best and the worst

[BANRYU]

Don't forget about the Speed Thunder tome. Having decent might unforged, and somewhat accurate, at the cost of giving your opponents a Rally Speed, like Xander's Lance but can critical and gives a different rally.

Personally, I almost never use it. The only time I ever did was when I ran out of tomes to give people, and resorted to giving it to Camilla due to her lower weapon rank + its comparatively high might for her low magic, but even then I rarely made her actually attack with it... That enemy rally is a pretty BIG drawback IMO, and really restricts how freely you can use it (IE, only to mop up enemies in range at the end of your turn, as using it among other enemies can make them harder to ORKO for your other units, making it REALLY bad if you use it at the wrong time).

I think it's interesting how they found a way to restrict usage of a weapon without debuffing the user, but... I'm pretty much just not interested, haha.... I avoid it whenever possible.

[eclipse]

Don't forget about the Speed Thunder tome. Having decent might unforged, and somewhat accurate, at the cost of giving your opponents a Rally Speed, like Xander's Lance but can critical and gives a different rally.

Good or Bad?

Unless I need to secure the last kill on the map, no. I can forge a Fimbulvter if I need power, or Thunder if I need accuracy. Neither will mess with my opponent's doubling/avoid calculations.

Edited October 25, 2016 by eggclipse

[Shadow Mir]

Don't forget about the Speed Thunder tome. Having decent might unforged, and somewhat accurate, at the cost of giving your opponents a Rally Speed, like Xander's Lance but can critical and gives a different rally.

Good or Bad?

Unless I was trying to finish off a lone enemy from a position where no other enemies are within 2 spaces of the user, no. Also of note, the rally effect triggers even if an enemy attacked the wielder. This makes it my "black-as-pitch list" entry number 3. Edited October 25, 2016 by Levant Mir Celestia

[BANRYU]

Unless I was trying to finish off a lone enemy from a position where no other enemies are within 2 spaces of the user, no. Also of note, the rally effect triggers even if an enemy attacked the wielder. This makes it my "black-as-pitch list" entry number 3.

What would 1 and 2 be, then? is it the ones you mentioned earlier?

So.... There's been a fair bit of discussion on this, and I think we've got some pretty good input and data and whatnot. Should I edit the OP and try tiering them, anybody?

[Emerson]

The thread is probably at a good point now where it's a good idea.

Is it going to go S-E or A-E or what?

Edited October 25, 2016 by Emerson

[Shadow Mir]

What would 1 and 2 be, then? is it the ones you mentioned earlier?

So.... There's been a fair bit of discussion on this, and I think we've got some pretty good input and data and whatnot. Should I edit the OP and try tiering them, anybody?

Ayup, with número uno being Beruka's Axe - I just can't forgive the huge crit evade drop when using it means I likely stand to eat counters, and the shaky accuracy does NOT help AT ALL, given that skill isn't exactly the strong point of most axe users. Edited October 25, 2016 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Emerson]

Ayup, with número uno being Beruka's Axe - I just can't forgive the crit evade drop when using it means I likely stand to eat counters when doing so, and the shaky accuracy does NOT help AT ALL.

... and this is why I was going to say the tiers will never get agreed on...

I think Beruka is actually a great user of the weapon actually. Her decent speed makes her not able to be easily doubled besides Ninjas and Samurai, one of which does minimal damage against her good defense and the other should be avoided by her without a Dual Club (Or Lance upon promotion) anyways. Her great skill makes her crit even more, and she should hopefully get the kill off it.

It's a Killer Axe with 5% more crit and 5 more might, with only 5% less Hit. The -20 Crit evade is a problem I suppose, but that's what strategy is for.

It's definitely not a weapon to hold onto for Enemy Phase, but it's not awful.

Charlotte could be another good user, albeit a more risky one. Arthur with it is literally the bane of your existence.

Edited October 25, 2016 by Emerson

[BANRYU]

Ayup, with número uno being Beruka's Axe - I just can't forgive the huge crit evade drop when using it means I likely stand to eat counters, and the shaky accuracy does NOT help AT ALL, given that skill isn't exactly the strong point of most axe users.

And was this on Lunatic or something? I've had great success with it on Benny and Beruka, but I've also never played on Lunatic so my perspective may be skewed somewhat.

[Sieghart]

Does the raider weapons +3 speed effect work on enemy phase? Sorry idk if this is the right topic to ask this.

Edited October 25, 2016 by Sieghart

[BANRYU]

Does the raider weapons +3 speed effect work on enemy phase? Sorry idk if this is the right topic to ask this.

It's fine, and don't quote me on this but I BELIEVE it does? I'm fairly certain it's like the permanent speed penalty on Steel weapons, just in reverse.

[Guardian]

Does the raider weapons +3 speed effect work on enemy phase? Sorry idk if this is the right topic to ask this.

Last I checked, it does work during enemy phase.

____

Also, if its worth, you could always trade the Beruka Axe off of a unit after they have attacked, so the Critical Penalty isn't an issue. Same can be said about the Odin Grimoire, though if that is at the same level of "not useful" as the axe i'm not so sure.

[SalShich10N]

Don't forget about the Speed Thunder tome. Having decent might unforged, and somewhat accurate, at the cost of giving your opponents a Rally Speed, like Xander's Lance but can critical and gives a different rally.

Good or Bad?

It is safer than people give it credit for, it's essential a Fimbulvetr without penalties. Once you understand that the range of your rally is essentially the range of your tome, you can plan around it more carefully. The only true issue being not letting the target live, which shouldn't be hard. Even if it lives, though, it'd be effed up so you can pick it out with ease. I generally prefer the Lightning tome, you can definitely live with the penalty from that one and resonates very well with Heartseeker.

I don't see the Dodge penalty in Beruka's Axe or Odin's Grimore as an issue. The enemy needs to have a high crit rate to begin with, and the user of the weapon needs to be exposed to damage during the enemy turn. Odin's Grimore problem is that you cannot double, which makes it hard to use, but it's a great thing to use when you cannot double in the first place which makes it better for Leo than Mjölnir in the late game. Beruka's Axe is good for Arthur, it's not as if he has any critical evade or speed to double in the first place, he welcomes the crit rate and might a lot.

[Shadow Mir]

... and this is why I was going to say the tiers will never get agreed on...

I think Beruka is actually a great user of the weapon actually. Her decent speed makes her not able to be easily doubled besides Ninjas and Samurai, one of which does minimal damage against her good defense and the other should be avoided by her without a Dual Club (Or Lance upon promotion) anyways. Her great skill makes her crit even more, and she should hopefully get the kill off it.

It's a Killer Axe with 5% more crit and 5 more might, with only 5% less Hit. The -20 Crit evade is a problem I suppose, but that's what strategy is for.

It's definitely not a weapon to hold onto for Enemy Phase, but it's not awful.

Charlotte could be another good user, albeit a more risky one. Arthur with it is literally the bane of your existence.

As I see it, the downsides just make it a massive liability - the Crit evade drop in particular is bad because crit, unfortunately, is horribly lopsided in terms of usefulness. Also, Charlotte is exactly who I wouldn't trust with it because she tends to whiff often even with weapons that are accurate - why in the seven hells would I give her a weapon that leaves her at risk of instantly liquefying???

It is safer than people give it credit for, it's essential a Fimbulvetr without penalties. Once you understand that the range of your rally is essentially the range of your tome, you can plan around it more carefully. The only true issue being not letting the target live, which shouldn't be hard. Even if it lives, though, it'd be effed up so you can pick it out with ease. I generally prefer the Lightning tome, you can definitely live with the penalty from that one and resonates very well with Heartseeker.

I don't see the Dodge penalty in Beruka's Axe or Odin's Grimore as an issue. The enemy needs to have a high crit rate to begin with, and the user of the weapon needs to be exposed to damage during the enemy turn. Odin's Grimore problem is that you cannot double, which makes it hard to use, but it's a great thing to use when you cannot double in the first place which makes it better for Leo than Mjölnir in the late game. Beruka's Axe is good for Arthur, it's not as if he has any critical evade or speed to double in the first place, he welcomes the crit rate and might a lot.

Well, that's a complete 180 from your assessment of Speed Thunder on page 2. The issue with Speed Thunder is that it's effect constantly forces you to play around it or else you gimp your entire team. Also, it ain't that accurate, meaning if you wind up missing, you essentially sabotaged yourself by making whatever you were attacking harder to double. That it actually has the potential to do that is just unacceptable.

Well, Odin's Grimoire has it better because in general, I don't have to worry as much about counters as I would with Beruka's Axe, where I do see the downsides as a big deal because I'm up front with the enemy, basically forcing me to luck out if I don't want it to bite me in the ass. Also, its accuracy is around the same as some other weapons you considered good on paper, but bad in practice. Why is it supposedly good when its downsides are pretty severe???

Edited October 26, 2016 by Levant Mir Celestia

[SalShich10N]

As I see it, the downsides just make it a massive liability - the Crit evade drop in particular is bad because crit, unfortunately, is horribly lopsided in terms of usefulness. Also, Charlotte is exactly who I wouldn't trust with it because she tends to whiff often even with weapons that are accurate - why in the seven hells would I give her a weapon that leaves her at risk of instantly liquefying???

Well, that's a complete 180 from your assessment of Speed Thunder on page 2. The issue with Speed Thunder is that it's effect constantly forces you to play around it or else you gimp your entire team. Also, it ain't that accurate, meaning if you wind up missing, you essentially sabotaged yourself by making whatever you were attacking harder to double. That it actually has the potential to do that is just unacceptable.

Well, Odin's Grimoire has it better because in general, I don't have to worry as much about counters as I would with Beruka's Axe, where I do see the downsides as a big deal because I'm up front with the enemy, basically forcing me to luck out if I don't want it to bite me in the ass. Also, its accuracy is around the same as some other weapons you considered good on paper, but bad in practice. Why is it supposedly good when its downsides are pretty severe???

Thing is that I was gonna rate Speed Thunder higher, but it has the problem that Tome users don't really rely on tomes with high might, since most enemies have lower res. They prefer to rely on critical hits from Mjölnir, help to double defense and stabilize hit rate from Horse Spirit, to hit shurkiens and lances with Calamity Gate, or to hit more times from Lightning. What I tried to say was that Speed Thunder's penalty is far more benign than it sounds, and a 9 mt tome without a speed penalty is quite something to get for free, specially early on. I didn't 180, I did stated originally that the penalty is negligible, the tome itself is outclassed by other tomes. 70% Hit rate isn't all that low, this is the type of weapon you give to someone fast and/or accurate.

Beruka's Axe because Camilla can easily double with it for most of the early and mid game and can use it right off the bat, it doesn't prevent you from doubling so a Berserker or a Hero with enough speed can not be doubled or even double with it, hell someone like Great Knight Effie or General Benny can use it and not care about the speed penalty due to high defense. A Berserker like Arthur, Charlotte or any other re classed unit can use it when it can't reach the double and really needs that crit. It's far stronger than a Killer Axe, so even if you don't crit you still dish out the pain. Sure it has lots of drawbacks when sitting on the enemy's phase with it, but there are plenty of ways to mitigate that, starting with trading it after attacking, and ending in being just a matter of mere positioning and enemy awareness. It's really powerful for something you can get for free.

You're playing too safe, which is not what these free weapons are for, clearly. You can stick to forged Irons and Steels and that's fine too.

[BANRYU]

Let's try to keep it civil here, guys. Nothing's gotten too bad yet, but I just want to try to catch it before it goes that way.

The issue with Speed Thunder is that it's effect constantly forces you to play around it or else you gimp your entire team.

This is pretty much the single biggest issue with ST that makes it ultimately really not worthwhile IMO. If you wanna try to make use of it in spite of that (I have a little, TBH), that's fine, but it's hugely situational and that's undeniably a big liability toward ease of use.

Ideally, an 'optimal' weapon is one that you can rely on the most without needing to worry about switching weapons; that can be used easily in both player phase offense and enemy phase tanking, that can attack at both close and long range, that allows proc activation, and doesn't hamper survivability. (Incidentally, if I decide to tier the weapons, these are the factors I'll be looking at. Probably won't be able to any time soon since I've got multiple more important things going on, but I'll attempt it if I find the time.)

I think this is why people like the Sunrise Katana so much, incidentally; what it lacks in offense it makes up for in its other qualities.

Conversely, Speed Thunder's penalties require either a solo unit with speed so stupidly high that it doesn't have to worry about being doubled even WITH the enemy rally (p sure no spellcaster gets this fast IIRC), or you have to play very, VERY carefully. Having it on someone to take advantage of the extra Mt is fine, but it really is too situational to be considered any better than mediocre (at best).

Odin's Grimoire is slightly better, but IMO it's not really worth using over Mjolnir unless the unit in question has Death Blow or something else that raises crit rate. (Ophelia with that plus her personal comes to mind lol) Less situational, but still so.

Beruka's Axe because Camilla can easily double with it for most of the early and mid game and can use it right off the bat, it doesn't prevent you from doubling so a Berserker or a Hero with enough speed can not be doubled or even double with it, hell someone like Great Knight Effie or General Benny can use it and not care about the speed penalty due to high defense Wary Fighter. A Berserker like Arthur, Charlotte or any other re classed unit can use it when it can't reach the double and really needs that crit. It's far stronger than a Killer Axe, so even if you don't crit you still dish out the pain. Sure it has lots of drawbacks when sitting on the enemy's phase with it, but there are plenty of ways to mitigate that, starting with trading it after attacking, and ending in being just a matter of mere positioning and enemy awareness. It's really powerful for something you can get for free.

You're playing too safe, which is not what these free weapons are for, clearly. You can stick to forged Irons and Steels and that's fine too.

Beruka's Axe has the same issue as Odin's Grimoire, IMO-- it's not for everyone, and it's really only usable on specific units (Charlotte is DEF not one of these, sorry lol). Camilla, Benny, and Beruka have all already been mentioned, so there's not really any need to do so further (though here I am doing it again anyway ~___~).

And it CAN be good on them particularly for the reasons bolded above-- it has unique traits that CAN be taken advantage of by specific units, being stronger than the Killer Axe and with a higher chance of ORKOing when wielded by specific units that can't take advantage of the Killer Axe's ability to double easily. BUT, that right there IS a valid, fairly reliable use for it (and I suppose early use on Camilla while she can still double with it? I'm taking Sal's word on that as I've never tried it myself).

Contrast that to Speed Thunder, which doesn't really have any units that can remedy its situationality...

In any case, I'd like to remind y'all that people can play how they want, and don't tell people how to play the game, please? Playing cautiously VS playing risky and exciting are both valid ways to play the game, and telling someone to play differently isn't going to improve your argument on the matter.

If y'all have more to say on the matter, go ahead, but I'd like to politely request that we, uh... kind of try to wrap this debate up and maybe discuss other weapons. I don't really want this thread to just become the 'Beruka's Axe + Speed Thunder viability discussion' thread.

So... in the interest of moving discussion along, hahaha....

I like how a bow-user with the Hunter's Bow, Blessed Bow, Trample skill, and any other bow can literally score supereffective damage on everything in the game (except golembane-relevant enemies, I think, but who cares about them lol).

Edited October 26, 2016 by BANRYU

[NekoKnight]

So... in the interest of moving discussion along, hahaha....

I like how a bow-user with the Hunter's Bow, Blessed Bow, Trample skill, and any other bow can literally score supereffective damage on everything in the game (except golembane-relevant enemies, I think, but who cares about them lol).

I wouldn't really call Trample super effective damage. Effective damage triples weapon might, meaning for almost all weapons, that's going to be a higher boost than 5 damage.

Edited October 26, 2016 by NekoKnight

[Purikaman]

Tsubaki's Pike is quite good after a few forge, it doulbe its forged might so it can reach quite the high might on the right hand... Like Tsubaki actually, or any chracter with above average skill. Effie's Lance it's another one that is really good despite its flaws, so much freaking might. Beruka's Axe has beeen dicused and while it does have it's flaws I found it to be so usefull during player phase that still think it's pretty good.

Finally the Rider weapons, pretty decent for an E rank weapon and does help quite a bit to double in early game.

But really, Tsubaki's Pike, forge that thing to at least +2 and it became absurd on the hands of a high skilled unit, one time I manage to forge a +4 Tsubaki's Pike, it was ridiculous the damage output of that thing.

And, Spellbane Yumi is really bad, Dual Yumi does a way better job dealing with Mages.

Edited October 27, 2016 by Purikaman

[BANRYU]

I wouldn't really call Trample super effective damage. Effective damage triples weapon might, meaning for almost all weapons, that's going to be a higher boost than 5 damage.

Oh whoops yeah I was remembering it wrong, my bad. Derp.

Tsubaki's Pike is quite good after a few forge, it doulbe his forged might so it can reach quite the high might on the right hand... Like Tsubaki actually, or any chracter with below average skill. Effie's Lance it's another one that is really good despite its flaws, so much freaking might. Beruka's Axe has beeen dicused and while it does have it's flaws I found it to be so usefull during player phase that still think it's pretty good.

Finally the Rider weapons, pretty decent for an E rank weapon and does help quite a bit to double in early game.

But really, Tsubaki's Pike, forge that thing to at least +2 and it became absurd on the hands of a high skilled unit, one time I manage to forge a +4 Tsubaki's Pike, it was ridiculos the damage output of that thing.

And, Spellbane Yumi is really bad, Dual Yumi does a way better job dealing with Mages.

I suppose it's a good thing that I always end up getting way too many subaki pikes then lol...

It really is interesting how kinda lackluster it is as a base weapon and how exponentially better it gets by forging due to its effect.

EDIT: I've started attempting to tier the weapons, lol. Feel free to suggest placement for (a )weapon(s), or whether to bump stuff up or down.

[spoiler=Attempting a tier list (WIP)]

A-Tier = The best weapons outright, have distinctions that no other normally-obtainable weapon can match

- Felicia's Plate = magic shuriken that can crit and activate procs. Less of an Avoid penalty than most magic weapons as well.

- Subaki's Pike: decent D-rank weapon in its own right, but can be monstrous if forged.

- Fuga's Club: Strong and accurate and more efficient at killing than Silver on units whose speed is pushed over the edge by the +3 boost.

B-Tier = Better than some normal weapons and practically always worthwhile

- Raider Weapons: strongest E-rank weapons; more power than bronze stuff and gives +3 speed, and most look pretty cool to boot. Amazing for training new weapon ranks

- Nohrian Blade / Sunrise Katana: extremely useful early-game for keeping units alive in respective modes where they're available, and can be pretty good when forged in Conquest/Revelations

- Arthur's Axe: Less accurate than Iron, but stronger and with extra Defense. Equal in strength to Steel (without drawbacks) when forged once, so really good in general.

- Camilla's Axe: Moderately strong for an axe and very accurate, and +2 Res is very nice. Str/Skill debuff afterward is inconvenient, but it has enough going for it to overlook this.

C-Tier = Mediocre. Weapons that are situational or have a few drawbacks, but are still worth using in some instances.

- Leo's Iceblade: magic sword that can crit and proc, but only has 1-range and user suffers stat penalties. Useful, but arguably no better than a Levin Sword on some units.

- Takumi's Shinai / Niles' Bow: Worth a mention due to their ability to feed kills to weaker units, as well as for grinding weapon levels and/or supports slightly faster.

- Beruka's Axe / Odin's Grimoire: usable on units with enough skill to outweigh its accuracy and limited ability to double, such as Benny / Beruka and Leo / Orochi. Gives them a better chance to OHKO than with the Killer Axe/Mjolnir (both of which have less Might and crit%) if they can't double. Risky to leave equipped while in range of enemies, due to the -20 crit avoid.

- Ganglari / Berserker's Axe / Sacrificial Knife: Crazy-powerful weapons good in all regards except their HP reduction, which can be rectified at least somewhat with recovery skills like Renewal and Lifetaker. Still requires careful use since enemy phase usage will eat up HP very quickly (unless they can reliably proc Sol), but too powerful to overlook their potential.

- Ryoma's Club: Risky, but rewarding. As with Beruka's Axe, very good on units with low Speed and high Skill. Especially good for Generals due to Wary Fighter (or anyone else who has the skill).

- Laslow's Blade: faster, but riskier alternative to Steel swords; -1 Might is a pretty good trade for +6 effective speed

D-Tier = Usefulness is very situational or limited, but existent, if just barely. Mostly reserved for joke weapons, stuff that wants to be wielded by a very specific unit to be worthwhile, or situational but harmless weapons.

- Adamant Club: Quite weak for an Axe/Club, but accurate and defensive. Very good weapon for Charlotte and possibly her children, but too weak on almost anyone else.

- Stale Bread / Moonlight: Not terrible, but the healing effect is difficult to take advantage of-- healing staves + better weapons are nearly always more effectual, but these'll do in a pinch.

E-tier =Garbage tier. Don't use these, they have zero advantages over other equipment that's available

- Speed Thunder / Xander's Lance: Situational in the extreme due to their enemy-buffing effects, which trigger every time they're used (including enemy phase). Almost never worth the extra power they afford.

- Hana's Katana: Limited viability for units with Vantage, but too held back by its inability to double

- Selena's Blade

- Hinata's Katana

- Rinkah's Club

- Spellbane Yumi

- Daikon Radish

- Bottle

- Broom

- Parasol

- Umbrella

- Ganglari

- Bamboo Pole

- Pine Branch

- Bold Naginata

- Hinoka's Spear

- Oboro's Spear

- Stick

- Hexlock Spear

- Effie's Spear

- Peri's Lance

- Carp Streamer

- Hoe

- Frying Pan

- Bone Axe

- Bamboo Yumi

- Harp Yumi

- Sidelong Yumi

- Mikoto's Yumi

- Setsuna's Yumi

- Rubber Bow

- Violin Bow

- Cupid Bow

- Hunter's Bow

- Anna's Bow

- Chopstick

- Hair Pin

- Caltrop

- Kaze's Needle

- Saizo's Star

- Kagero's Dart

- Quill Pen

- Votive Candle

- Felicia's Plate

- Jakob's Tray

- Pebble

- Paper

- Malevolent Text

- Monkey Spirit

- Bird Spirit

- Ink Painting

- Izana's Scroll

- Ember

- Iago's Tome

- Lantern

- Dumpling Rod

- Bamboo Branch

- Sakura's Rod

- Purification Rod

- Candy Cane

- Mushroom Staff

- Bouquet Staff

- Elise's Staff

- Lilith's Staff

Edited October 27, 2016 by BANRYU

[NekoKnight]

I think Leo's Sword and Tsubaki's pike are ranked too high and the Berserker Axe/Sacrificial Knife ranked too low. There are too few units who are Mag blessed that can also use a sword and being able to crit/use skills is a poor trade for being locked to range 1. The weapon rank is also too high which discourages class changed units. Tsubaki's Pike is only stand-out after several forges (a +3 forge is a whopping 8 random drops which you aren't guaranteed to find.)

The might on the latter weapons is crazy good and can be healed off by support units or healing skills.

[eclipse]

Joke weapons to B-tier, IMO. They're Bronze, with their slightly lower might compensated by their higher accuracy, avoid and ability to crit and proc skills.

Cupid's Bow firmly belongs in E-tier. Its MT is drastically worse than its Bronze counterpart, and it heals the opponent after battle. Seriously, WTF. It's better to use Niles' Bow, even WITH the stat reductions!

Edited October 27, 2016 by eggclipse

[Topaz Light]

Of the joke weapons, the one that stuck out the most to me was the Bottle. FSR, I kept getting it. Have you guys noticed the same thing, in regards to a particular special weapon?

I usually tend to end up with a lot of Bottles and Frying Pans, which suits me just fine. As far as what sticks out to me the most, it's probably the Frying Pan and the Stick, but maybe that's just because they remind me of the MOTHER/EarthBound series, which I'm a sucker for. And they give me forged weapons to name after weapons from that series.

In regards to the Bottle, a fun thing to do is equip it on a Vanguard and preview their battle animation. It always kind of amuses me.

I do agree that the Sunrise Katana is pretty useful, though, but it is pretty situational. It's definitely not your go-to option for actually killing enemies, but in situations where survival is a priority and the killing of certain enemies can wait, it can be a lifesaver.

Felicia's Plate is also pretty fantastic, and I've found Peri's Lances and Umbrellas to pretty useful for spreading some nice 1~2 range love amongst your units during early-game when you don't have a whole lot of options for that; historically, Silas has really gotten a lot of mileage out of the Umbrella for me, as has Effie from Peri's Lance.

The Nohrian Blade is also useful in its own ways, at times, but I haven't found quite as much use for it compared to the Sunrise Katana, personally. Arthur's Axe, on the other hand, is consistently useful in the hands of just about anybody who can use it. Solid Might plus that nice +2 Defense is hard not to love, even with its accuracy leaning a little toward the shakier end of the spectrum.

Speaking of shaky accuracy, I've gotten decent use out of Ryoma's Club during times when I could afford to take a chance on making things die fast. That Might is seriously absurd.

Takumi's Shinai basically gives the wielder the Mercy skill, which definitely isn't something you want in the hands of a character you're trying to kill enemies with, but if the goal is just to soften up enemies for your weaker units to kill, then it's ideal for that purpose.

Subaki's Pike is already decent as it is, but I can imagine its power quickly snowballing with Forges due to how its special property works.

I feel like Intelligent Systems might have underestimated a bit just how harsh a penalty it is to completely remove a weapon's ability to double, especially if that weapon is of a type favored by faster units (Swords), since a decent chunk of the character Swords disable the wielder's ability to double (oftentimes along with other, lesser penalties) without offering any perks that even really come close to making up for that setback. Either that, or the weapons are supposed to be as hard-to-use as they are, which... would be a little bit odd.

Dunno if it counts, since it's technically a DLC weapon, but since it is also an unbuyable joke weapon, I'll say that the Pebble is an incredible tool for softening up foes. Felicia's always pretty vital in my strategies, but even just the Pebble by itself turned her into a debuffing monster, which I'd imagine is just as applicable to Jakob, Kaze, and frankly anyone with access to Shurikens.

Edited October 27, 2016 by Topaz Light

[Brand_Of_The_Exalt]

I've started attempting to tier the weapons, lol. Feel free to suggest placement for (a )weapon(s), or whether to bump stuff up or down.

[spoiler=Attempting a tier list (WIP)]

A-Tier = The best weapons outright, have distinctions that no other normally-obtainable weapon can match

- Felicia's Plate = magic shuriken that can crit and activate procs. Less of an Avoid penalty than most magic weapons as well.

- Subaki's Pike: decent D-rank weapon in its own right, but can be monstrous if forged.

- Fuga's Club: Strong and accurate and more efficient at killing than Silver on units whose speed is pushed over the edge by the +3 boost.

B-Tier = Better than some normal weapons and practically always worthwhile

- Raider Weapons: strongest E-rank weapons; more power than bronze stuff and gives +3 speed, and most look pretty cool to boot. Amazing for training new weapon ranks

- Nohrian Blade / Sunrise Katana: extremely useful early-game for keeping units alive in respective modes where they're available, and can be pretty good when forged in Conquest/Revelations

- Arthur's Axe: Less accurate than Iron, but stronger and with extra Defense. Equal in strength to Steel (without drawbacks) when forged once, so really good in general.

- Camilla's Axe: Moderately strong for an axe and very accurate, and +2 Res is very nice. Str/Skill debuff afterward is inconvenient, but it has enough going for it to overlook this.

C-Tier = Mediocre. Weapons that are situational or have a few drawbacks, but are still worth using in some instances.

- Leo's Iceblade: magic sword that can crit and proc, but only has 1-range and user suffers stat penalties. Useful, but arguably no better than a Levin Sword on some units.

- Takumi's Shinai / Niles' Bow: Worth a mention due to their ability to feed kills to weaker units, as well as for grinding weapon levels and/or supports slightly faster.

- Beruka's Axe / Odin's Grimoire: usable on units with enough skill to outweigh its accuracy and limited ability to double, such as Benny / Beruka and Leo / Orochi. Gives them a better chance to OHKO than with the Killer Axe/Mjolnir (both of which have less Might and crit%) if they can't double. Risky to leave equipped while in range of enemies, due to the -20 crit avoid.

- Ganglari / Berserker's Axe / Sacrificial Knife: Crazy-powerful weapons good in all regards except their HP reduction, which can be rectified at least somewhat with recovery skills like Renewal and Lifetaker. Still requires careful use since enemy phase usage will eat up HP very quickly (unless they can reliably proc Sol), but too powerful to overlook their potential.

- Ryoma's Club: Risky, but rewarding. As with Beruka's Axe, very good on units with low Speed and high Skill. Especially good for Generals due to Wary Fighter (or anyone else who has the skill).

- Laslow's Blade: faster, but riskier alternative to Steel swords; -1 Might is a pretty good trade for +6 effective speed

D-Tier = Usefulness is very situational or limited, but existent, if just barely. Mostly reserved for joke weapons, stuff that wants to be wielded by a very specific unit to be worthwhile, or situational but harmless weapons.

- Adamant Club: Quite weak for an Axe/Club, but accurate and defensive. Very good weapon for Charlotte and possibly her children, but too weak on almost anyone else.

- Stale Bread / Moonlight: Not terrible, but the healing effect is difficult to take advantage of-- healing staves + better weapons are nearly always more effectual, but these'll do in a pinch.

E-tier =Garbage tier. Don't use these, they have zero advantages over other equipment that's available

- Speed Thunder / Xander's Lance: Situational in the extreme due to their enemy-buffing effects, which trigger every time they're used (including enemy phase). Almost never worth the extra power they afford.

- Hana's Katana: Limited viability for units with Vantage, but too held back by its inability to double

- Selena's Blade

- Hinata's Katana

- Rinkah's Club

- Spellbane Yumi

- Daikon Radish

- Bottle

- Broom

- Parasol

- Umbrella

- Ganglari

- Bamboo Pole

- Pine Branch

- Bold Naginata

- Hinoka's Spear

- Oboro's Spear

- Stick

- Hexlock Spear

- Effie's Spear

- Peri's Lance

- Carp Streamer

- Hoe

- Frying Pan

- Bone Axe

- Bamboo Yumi

- Harp Yumi

- Sidelong Yumi

- Mikoto's Yumi

- Setsuna's Yumi

- Rubber Bow

- Violin Bow

- Cupid Bow

- Hunter's Bow

- Anna's Bow

- Chopstick

- Hair Pin

- Caltrop

- Kaze's Needle

- Saizo's Star

- Kagero's Dart

- Quill Pen

- Votive Candle

- Felicia's Plate

- Jakob's Tray

- Pebble

- Paper

- Malevolent Text

- Monkey Spirit

- Bird Spirit

- Ink Painting

- Izana's Scroll

- Ember

- Iago's Tome

- Lantern

- Dumpling Rod

- Bamboo Branch

- Sakura's Rod

- Purification Rod

- Candy Cane

- Mushroom Staff

- Bouquet Staff

- Elise's Staff

- Lilith's Staff

I won't comment the whole list, but I see a lot of weapons misplaced IMO.

- Speed Thunder / Xander's Lance are good weapons to kill an isolated ennemy, finish the last of them, and Xander's Lance's Rally Strength is nothing is your unit is in the middle of a group of mages, so it's very useful for units like Peri (and it boosts Res, what an odd coincidence). B Rank at least.

- Kaze's Neeldle / Saizo's Star: -1 Might but +5 Hit compared to an Iron Shuriken, procs a Rally when you launch an attack (!) and better debuffs (4 Spd/Str instead of 3 Mag, and -4 Res/Def instead of 3). B rank.

- Effie's Lance: You can give it to a General with Wary Fighter (and its amazing Might is great for passive/active poking, or OHKO early-game and its Hit is not that bad) or on a very fast unit. My Kaze!Shigure was so fast (43 Spd, not even capped !) that he could still double almost anything with it, even Master Ninjas if he had Darting Blow. A rank.

- Odin's Grimoire: Weapon for Ophelia or Odin. Its limited hit is not a problem with Weapon Triangle advantage (don't try it on a Ninja though), and its massive Mt and Crit are useful in a lot of situations where you can't double anyway, such as Dual Strikes (everyone keeps forgetting how good it is in Dual Strikes since you can't double anyway) or even range attacks when you can't double either. Its -20 Avoid is not a problem at all, because you should not let anyone attack your Ophelia anyway. B or A rank.

- Leo's Iceblade is a good weapon, but its B rank is too long to reach for most units that could actually use it correctly (like Leo, I gave him an Arms Scroll, used the Levin Sword as often as I could and he didn't reach it). The best unit I found to use it (except an Odin that went through Samurai) is Asugi. Good Mag and Str (he keeps both with Sakura as his mother) and can reach B rank in swords a bit faster with his Offspring Seal.

EDIT: I misunderstood your list, Kaze's Needle/Saizo's star and Effie's Lance are not in garbage rank but in "I don't know" rank.

Edited October 27, 2016 by Brand_Of_The_Exalt

[Guardian]

I have a few suggestions for the list, so here goes nothing!

Votive Candle- D or C Rank: An iron dagger that that has the built-in Miracle skill, useful for some characters that have a high enough luck stat, (amazing for Midori PVP builds), and it has okay stat debuffs, but it is otherwise more unreliable than reliable.

Anna's Bow- D or C Rank: A decently strong bow that has an amazing hit of 120 at base,(Last I checked?) along with the Luck +5 making Merchants with Profiteer great for gold grinding. Paired with Anna as a Merchant with her personal skill, it can be useful, otherwise i'm not too sure about the other weapons right now.

Pebble is A-Rank, no questions! ; ]

[BANRYU]

I think Leo's Sword and Tsubaki's pike are ranked too high and the Berserker Axe/Sacrificial Knife ranked too low. There are too few units who are Mag blessed that can also use a sword and being able to crit/use skills is a poor trade for being locked to range 1. The weapon rank is also too high which discourages class changed units. Tsubaki's Pike is only stand-out after several forges (a +3 forge is a whopping 8 random drops which you aren't guaranteed to find.)

The might on the latter weapons is crazy good and can be healed off by support units or healing skills.

Fair enough, I can see that. I thought Subaki's Pike might have been a little high haha, considering it's really at its best when forged (which requires the random drops ofc). I can see that argument for Leo's Iceblade as well I suppose... To me the main viable users of that are Corrin and Kana, esp for Birthright, since you have no magic offense available otherwise (barring the Levin Sword also from battle rewards, ofc). Derp I just remembered Dragonstones. BUT, Iceblade can double and has weapon triangle advantage so there's that maybe...? But yeah, it's really not that good, I agree and a lot of other people seem to as well. I'll bump it.

Joke weapons to B-tier, IMO. They're Bronze, with their slightly lower might compensated by their higher accuracy, avoid and ability to crit and proc skills.

Cupid's Bow firmly belongs in E-tier. Its MT is drastically worse than its Bronze counterpart, and it heals the opponent after battle. Seriously, WTF. It's better to use Niles' Bow, even WITH the stat reductions!

B-tier seems a little high for the joke weaps to me. I won't refute that they have their uses, but they're no Raiders, and I feel like they should be ranked accordingly to that-- C-tier seems more reasonable to them to me, but I'll hear further arguments in their favor before I rank them.

Cupid's Bow has SOME uses for grinding weapon ranks/staff experience in Conquest though, dunnit? That seems like enough to just make it to D to me.

Dunno if it counts, since it's technically a DLC weapon, but since it is also an unbuyable joke weapon, I'll say that the Pebble is an incredible tool for softening up foes. Felicia's always pretty vital in my strategies, but even just the Pebble by itself turned her into a debuffing monster, which I'd imagine is just as applicable to Jakob, Kaze, and frankly anyone with access to Shurikens.

You know what, this is actually a good point. As useful as Pebbles might be, they actually CAN be obtained reliably, unlike the rest of these weapons (barring Battle/Visit rewards, ofc).

In light of that, I think they probably shouldn't be counted on this list, so I'll take'em off. The point of the thread is more what the random-only weapons can do, haha.

I won't comment the whole list, but I see a lot of weapons misplaced IMO.

- Speed Thunder / Xander's Lance are good weapons to kill an isolated ennemy, finish the last of them, and Xander's Lance's Rally Strength is nothing is your unit is in the middle of a group of mages, so it's very useful for units like Peri (and it boosts Res, what an odd coincidence). B Rank at least.

- Kaze's Neeldle / Saizo's Star: -1 Might but +5 Hit compared to an Iron Shuriken, procs a Rally when you launch an attack (!) and better debuffs (4 Spd/Str instead of 3 Mag, and -4 Res/Def instead of 3). B rank.

- Effie's Lance: You can give it to a General with Wary Fighter (and its amazing Might is great for passive/active poking, or OHKO early-game and its Hit is not that bad) or on a very fast unit. My Kaze!Shigure was so fast (43 Spd, not even capped !) that he could still double almost anything with it, even Master Ninjas if he had Darting Blow. A rank.

- Odin's Grimoire: Weapon for Ophelia or Odin. Its limited hit is not a problem with Weapon Triangle advantage (don't try it on a Ninja though), and its massive Mt and Crit are useful in a lot of situations where you can't double anyway, such as Dual Strikes (everyone keeps forgetting how good it is in Dual Strikes since you can't double anyway) or even range attacks when you can't double either. Its -20 Avoid is not a problem at all, because you should not let anyone attack your Ophelia anyway. B or A rank.

- Leo's Iceblade is a good weapon, but its B rank is too long to reach for most units that could actually use it correctly (like Leo, I gave him an Arms Scroll, used the Levin Sword as often as I could and he didn't reach it). The best unit I found to use it (except an Odin that went through Samurai) is Asugi. Good Mag and Str (he keeps both with Sakura as his mother) and can reach B rank in swords a bit faster with his Offspring Seal.

EDIT: I misunderstood your list, Kaze's Needle/Saizo's star and Effie's Lance are not in garbage rank but in "I don't know" rank.

Oh yeah haha the rest are just what I haven't got to yet, sorry. I def agree that Kaze/Saizo/Effie should be pretty high, they are great.

IMO B-rank is much too high for Xander's Lance/Speed Thunder. I can see the arguments for Xander's Lance, since it doesn't per se make enemies harder to double and thus kill like Speed Thunder does... But Speed Thunder should not be higher than D-rank. It has its uses, I'll grant, but it's accuracy is JUST shaky enough to not be able to guarantee a kill even on isolated targets if the wielder doesn't have high enough Skill-- and last I checked, most mages outside of Orochi and Leo (who has Brynhildr and doesn't need to bother) don't have the skill hit reliably enough for how big the drawback is.

Kaze/Saizo I can see B-rank or even A-rank tbh; Effie's Lance is a solid A-B as well (good even with the speed penalty, simply monstrous on Wary Fighters iss true). Other people agree on Leo Iceblade, that will be bumped. Odin's Grimoire I like, but I will stand by where it's ranked for now; I'll grant it has SOME advantage over Beruka's Axe given as it can attack from range, but unless others speak out in favor of it it's probably staying where it is.

Votive Candle- D or C Rank: An iron dagger that that has the built-in Miracle skill, useful for some characters that have a high enough luck stat, (amazing for Midori PVP builds), and it has okay stat debuffs, but it is otherwise more unreliable than reliable.

Anna's Bow- D or C Rank: A decently strong bow that has an amazing hit of 120 at base,(Last I checked?) along with the Luck +5 making Merchants with Profiteer great for gold grinding. Paired with Anna as a Merchant with her personal skill, it can be useful, otherwise i'm not too sure about the other weapons right now.

Pebble is A-Rank, no questions! ; ]

Votive Candle actually works pretty well on most of the maids/butlers due to their high Luck, nevermind the flavor factor haha. It's good on Felicia until she hits C-rank in daggers, or other units earlygame, but offensively outclassed, yeah. I'll probably put it in D unless anyone else speaks up for it.

As for Anna's Bow, yeah... Iron Yumi beats it in might and Surefire Yumi is better outright in terms of landing kills, so its killing ability is only applicable in Conquest where the only other accurate weapon is the Rubber Bow (lol). Even then, the only archer in that story (gen 1 anyway) has enough skill that he doesn't need to worry about the extra accuracy. So yeah, its only real use is Profiteer-grinding IMO-- but that's a worthy enough cause for D-rank, lol.

List is being updated accordingly (just gonna put it in the OP).

Anyone have any objections to Saizo's Star / Kaze's Shuriken going in A-rank?

[Roflolxp54]

For the tier list, I think Kagero's Dart is either a B or A-rank weapon for the following reasons:

Pros:

+ 20 Avo. bonus is huge, especially on a projectile weapon

+ 2 SPD bonus since it's a shuriken weapon is always nice (makes user harder to double and to get hit by enemy attacks)

+ Has base 80 Hit

+ Debuffs targets by -5 SKL, -3 DEF, -3 RES (makes target less accurate, less able to proc attack skills, and more vulnerable to damage)

Cons:

- Has base 1 Might (unless forged or shuriken user has lots of STR and/or can reliably proc attack skills, the weapon wouldn't be doing that much damage, especially on the first time the weapon hits the target)

- Usable only by the Ninja class line, Dread Fighters, and Butlers/Maids

- D-rank weapon, meaning that units that were newly reclassed to a Shuriken/Dagger-using class can't immediately use it

Overall, the weapon seems to be following an archetype that very much references stereotypical shinobi -- not very strong but annoying, evasive, and quick.

Edited October 27, 2016 by Roflolxp54