Should the final chapter focus more on the boss or the map?

[Jotari]

So we've seen a variety of final chapters in the Fire Emblem series. They seem to go on a spectrum between having a very long and challenging map (Thracia's probably the one with the most focus on that), to being a relatively small short map all about defeating a single powerful enemy (probably the biggest example would be Awakening where the game practically tells you to two turn the chapter). So which of the two types or unique blend of the two do you prefer?

Edited November 15, 2016 by Jotari

[Ycine]

I voted for the two distinct parts just like the GBA title because getting two maps done in a single chapter feels "heavy" and give you the feeling of fighting till the end of it.

But personnally a Final Boss/Final Map should be the apotheosis of all the things you've learnt in the game.

So, going with a Radiant Dawn Final Stage is also a good idea to me.

[Augestein]

The map. Front Mission did it this way, and I prefer it that way. Enemies all over the place, and a tough SoB that's been harassing you the whole game, it's time to put everything to rest, but it doesn't throw out all of the elements you've learned over the course of the game. I feel like RD was a bit too much focus on the boss itself than the map and ended up making most of them basically easier to fight in 1-3 turns than trying to use "strategy" to systematically take down the boss/map. IE, PoR has the right idea (outside of the boss having stupid immunity for most units so they can't fight Ashnard).

Edited November 15, 2016 by Augestein

[Rapier]

I'd prefer a split between two chapters, one focused on a strategic map with intelligent enemy placement and a challenging boss waiting up ahead (like Vigarde's map), and the other focused on the boss fight with a few gimmicks thrown into the mix (like Ashera and Grima's chapter).

[Tolvir]

I love the idea of big maps, would love to see more of those.

Boss/final chapter wise, it should be about a 40/60 split with most the focus on the boss. The map should play into it, but the boss should be the main focus. I would love to see an actual boss too, not one defeated in 1-2 turns. Give him/her a ton of hp, at least 500. Give them some damage resistance, maybe negate crits on them or something. Make them tough. If I am fighting a deity, he should be tough as hell, not defeated by an iron sword in 2 rounds.

I think they got close to this with Ashnard and Ashera. Ashnard was pretty tanky, and it didnt help Ike and the Laguz leader you choose in the beginning are the only ones that can damage him. He was pretty tough, and took more than a few rounds to do it in harder difficulties, not including his crazed version he goes into on the highest difficulty.

Ashera was tanky through more of a mechanics mean. You had to get through all of those orbs, and watch out for her attacks. It was a good fight, and felt like I was going against an ultra powerful, pissed off deity.

I think if they used those two as a point to look back to when designing final bosses, then they would make a lot better final bosses. I also wouldnt mind seing some mini bosses. Give us a few more fights like this outside of the main bad guy. Otherwise that is one area the series really lacks, it really doesnt have any memorable boss fights outside of those two.

Edited November 15, 2016 by Tolvir

[Melissa]

I would prefer a mix of both

[Lord Kyuubi]

I'd say the map, with the boss having a visible input throughout. For a final boss, there's not much worse than just standing still in the middle of a stage with nothing else in it and simply allowing yourself to be dogpiled and slaughtered like the Dragon in FE7. To a lesser extent, a boss like Grima in Awakening who just waits at the end of a map and fights you as and when you arrive is not really very good either. To make a really good FE boss, particularly if they're meant to be a final boss, I'd say they shouldn't just have high stats, but should interact with the player all through their map, and have a strong presence long before you actually fight them.

For some good examples of this, I'd say the late-game of Fates: Conquest is riddled with bosses like this in the form of the Hoshidan Royals, though admittedly not all of them pull it off well. From Chapter 22 onwards, almost every boss attempts it to some extent, whether it's Sakura with healing and status staves, Takumi with a ballista, Hinoka with the terrible movement-boost dragon veins, and Ryoma duelling Corrin. Those are all basic examples of how bosses can be better integrated into their maps, rather than just feeling like a strong enemy with plot significance dropped on the end.

Regarding specifically final bosses, I'd say the best examples are Ashnard from Path of Radiance (hard mode at least), due to the simple fact he has movement 10 and actually uses it, as well as the fact priests come to heal him later on; and the final bosses of Fates: Conquest and Revelation for varying reasons.

[Magical Glace]

I'd say two parts. I'd love to see something like FE7 Final again.

[Sire]

I like Radiant Dawn's combo version, with the Black Knight and the Dragon chapters being memorable. However, for a more generalized variant...

I want to see the final chapter in two parts. The first is the lengthy, tactically challenging map, and the second focuses on taking down that "invincible" boss. For example, the first part can be the main antagonist while the second is the greater evil or something similar. This is probably similar to Sacred Stones (Fight Lyon, then the Demon King).

A part of me also wants to see bosses do something extra outside of having super stats, like the the final boss of Radiant Dawn does with her map attacks, the energy shields, and so on. The true final boss in Conquest does this to some degree, but I want to see a bit more of it. Maybe we need to run across the map to activate the seals which will weaken the boss to manageable levels or even having boss phases that will change the map and behavior of the boss itself. Fighting a stat stick can be fun, but I rather see a more in-depth boss battle that has more gimmicks and the like.

[MCProductions]

The 3DS games and FE7 handled final maps best for me. I'll flat out say that as much of a drag the rest of Fates Revelation is, it's Final chapter is by far my favorite in the series

[Sentinel07]

I like how the GBA games handled it with a good strategic map against the main antagonist of the game with a more simplistic map against the giant final boss.

At the very least, if the boss is human (like Julius, Nergal, Lyon, Ashnard) then I think it should be strategic, but for giant monsters like the Fire Dragon and Fomortillis and such, simplistic maps are better.

[NekoKnight]

I liked what Birthright did for its final chapter. The map itself has a lot of strong enemies that require you to divide your forces strategically to eliminate them all, and then you also have the strong boss to contend with. I'm reminded of the last chapter of Warcraft 3: The Frozen throne for good level design. In that chapter your had to secure 4 parts of the map before the enemy did and you were constantly under pressure to keep your defenses strong and your army mobile. With that in mind, the final chapter of a Fire Emblem game should have the boss providing an active threat as well as keeping you on your toes so you have to maneuver your forces effectively.

[Jotari]

I liked what Birthright did for its final chapter. The map itself has a lot of strong enemies that require you to divide your forces strategically to eliminate them all, and then you also have the strong boss to contend with. I'm reminded of the last chapter of Warcraft 3: The Frozen throne for good level design. In that chapter your had to secure 4 parts of the map before the enemy did and you were constantly under pressure to keep your defenses strong and your army mobile. With that in mind, the final chapter of a Fire Emblem game should have the boss providing an active threat as well as keeping you on your toes so you have to maneuver your forces effectively.

I found the map layout for that one pretty lacking. You're left so open on so many fronts that it's much simpler to just one turn the boss much like in Awakening.

[General Horace]

Most endgame maps are pretty lackluster, so it's something that should be expanded upon. Maps like the GBA final maps you literally walk up to final boss and kill them are pretty anticlimactic.

[Quintessence]

Imo boss focused. In the end, the final chapter is the time when you break into the mastermind of the game's plot, so the boss is what you're looking at.

Edited November 16, 2016 by Quintessence

[Sentinel07]

I found the map layout for that one pretty lacking. You're left so open on so many fronts that it's much simpler to just one turn the boss much like in Awakening.

Yeah, I agree. There isn't much strategy to that one. You're not really forced to deal with the enemies to be honest and you can lead straight for the Blight Dragon.

I think Path of Radiance's final chapter did it better. In that, you actually have to strategically make your way through the enemy gauntlet before getting to Ashnard.

[NekoKnight]

I found the map layout for that one pretty lacking. You're left so open on so many fronts that it's much simpler to just one turn the boss much like in Awakening.

I guess I played it the hard way by clearing the map first. lol #justcompletionistthings

In that case, make a map like that but make the boss hard to reach.

[NekoKnight]

Edit: Double Post

Edited November 16, 2016 by NekoKnight

[Darros]

Definitely the boss, or mixing/two segments. Focusing on the map can make it seem more frustrating than epic. But if you're going to focus on the map, don't split up the party. FE11 was so obnoxious for this. That map sucked.

EDIT: FE4 was... different. It worked but that was because of the nature of the game. I don't think I'd want to see a game with maps that large again but if IS ever decides to do that for some reason going the route they did before would be fine.

Edited November 16, 2016 by Darros

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

Most endgame maps are bossfocussed unfortunately, and if not, they tend to be warpchain-festivals.

I prefer a mix of both.

FE7 did it well with the two parts.

I'd say two parts. I'd love to see something like FE7 Final again.

Yeah, FE7's final map was a good mix of being map and boss focussed.

Also I liked the idea of getting the S weapons by defeating the reanimated bosses.

Edited November 16, 2016 by Ayama Wirdo

[Topaz Light]

I think the focus should absolutely be on the map. Certainly, make the boss formidable and the toughest/most troublesome you've encountered yet, but I find that having a standard-JRPG-fare singular final boss with huge HP and general stats just doesn't create a very fun experience in the context of Fire Emblem's gameplay style. It usually just ends up monotonous; attack the boss a bit with one of the usually-like-four-tops characters who can actually damage it significantly, retreat to heal, rinse/repeat until it's dead. Really, the interesting part of it is usually the sheer shock and intimidation factor of seeing an enemy with such ridiculous stats.

It works just fine in most standard RPGs, because the individual specific battles are where almost all the action is, gameplay-wise. However, in Fire Emblem, individual battles are just one part of a larger whole challenge; the chapter itself. With this in mind, I think it's most prudent to consider the entire final chapter, rather than just the final singular boss enemy, to be the "final boss", for the purposes of designing a challenging and satisfying finale.

[Irysa]

The boss should be a major part of the map, but that doesn't mean we have to throw out the boss's effects on the map. I would like to see a moving final boss who is involved in the majority of the map as it goes on. Perhaps the boss would need to be stalled by capable units whilst others fufill objectives elsewhere (destroying a phylactery, etc) or protect the bosskillers from waves of enemies. Or perhaps the final boss could warp themselves around the map semi-randomly, causing chaos wherever they go.

Ashnard is by far my favourite final boss mechanically because he moves and has flight. That alone makes him stick out a lot.

Edited November 16, 2016 by Irysa

[RiggyRob]

The boss should be the focus - you spend most of the game working through maps with various strategies, the final boss should be a test of if you've been able to train and use your units effectively.

Radiant Dawn's version is really good though, a series of maps that culminates in the final boss made it feel even more epic.

[Florete]

I want the entirety of the final map to feel like one big boss fight. This doesn't necessarily mean you are directly fighting the boss the whole time, but everything you do should feel like it's fighting the boss in some way rather than just clearing more enemies on the way to the boss. Radiant Dawn did this the best so far.

[Dark Holy Elf]

I feel like final chapters should have at least somewhat of a boss focus. There are plenty of other times to have pure map focuses, but this is your showdown with the main villain, and it's anticlimactic when he or she feels like just another minor roadblock (see: Shadow Dragon, Binding Blade).

I think there are definitely different ways to do this well. Radiant Dawn has possibly my favourite to date, since it's just one boss fight that feels truly epic with the massive multitarget attacks that get thrown at you... but thanks to the auras, their counters and defences, and all the cover/wardwood terrain boosts, it still feels like you're playing a strategy RPG. On the other hand, you can get less boss-focused versions like Conquest and Awakening which still work well, because the boss constantly summons powerful support so you have to move quickly and effectively through them then deal with a boss who, if not as overall powerful as Ashera, still needs to be engaged carefully.

I also don't really like final bosses which can only be fought reasonably by a small, specific number of people, and FE is pretty guilty of this (especially PoR, but also the DS games, FE6, FE7). I think the recent games' handling of Dragonskin to make certain character(s) slightly better, but not far better worked pretty well.