Life Posted November 26, 2016 Share Posted November 26, 2016 Fidel Castro is dead and Justin Trudeau decided to show his Communist roots by praising a tyrant. And then... this happened. http://www.nationalpost.com/m/wp/news/canada/canadian-politics/blog.html?b=news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/canadian-politics/fidel-castro-dies-justin-trudeau-issues-statement-much-hilarity-ensues-trudeaueulogies The Emperor Nero comment is mine. Honestly, I am ashamed to call myself Canadian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nobody Posted November 26, 2016 Share Posted November 26, 2016 (edited) Castro was a disgusting piece of shit who suppressed whoever disagreed with him, shot dissidents, kept his country miserable and deserves no praise. I think when it comes to policies, Trudeau's seem to be aligned with what I believe (but I'd not really know, I'm not canadian lol), but this praise of Fidel Castro coming from him and other world leaders is just disgusting. Edited November 26, 2016 by Nooooooooooooooooooooobody Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Life Posted November 26, 2016 Author Share Posted November 26, 2016 Maxime Bernier is relentless in his attack. Honestly, who does Trudeau think he is? On behalf of all Canadians? No. Not on my behalf. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blah the Prussian Posted November 26, 2016 Share Posted November 26, 2016 To be fair he kind of needs to praise Castro for diplomatic relations with Cuba. I mean, the Saudi King was a bastard; didn't mean Obama pointed that out when he died. For us non politicians, though: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radiant head Posted November 26, 2016 Share Posted November 26, 2016 castro was a hero tbh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Life Posted November 26, 2016 Author Share Posted November 26, 2016 (edited) To be fair he kind of needs to praise Castro for diplomatic relations with Cuba. I mean, the Saudi King was a bastard; didn't mean Obama pointed that out when he died. For us non politicians, though: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHQLQ1Rc_Js Not "on behalf of all Canadians". Absolutely not.Despite being misunderstood, Joseph Goebbels was a visionary in media relations. castro was a hero tbhTo whom, exactly? Edited November 26, 2016 by Life Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nobody Posted November 26, 2016 Share Posted November 26, 2016 castro was a hero tbh You don't miss a single opportunity to complain about western liberal democracy yet you praise a dictator who kept the life of his country's citizens miserable, gave them no freedom of speech or any way to oppose him, and supported an economic system that privated them from many basic goods. Life in Sweden is awful but life in Cuba is a paradise, right? nice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radiant head Posted November 26, 2016 Share Posted November 26, 2016 (edited) i don't really see how the context and material conditions in cuba even compare to sweden or any first world country. we're talking about a small island that before the revolution was a third world neo-colonial military dictatorship, and now provides housing, healthcare, and education to literally all of its citizens, despite being economically isolated by the us and the rest of the world, and then went on to be instrumental in defeating apartheid and provides some of the best medical assistance in the world to third world countries. the authoritarianism and other problems should be critiqued where they exist, but if we're giving nuance to us presidents who have mostly all done terrible things, i don't see why it shouldn't be afforded here. Edited November 26, 2016 by Radiant head Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Life Posted November 26, 2016 Author Share Posted November 26, 2016 (edited) i don't really see how the context and material conditions in cuba even compare to sweden or any first world country. we're talking about a small island that before the revolution was a third world neo-colonial military dictatorship, and now provides housing, healthcare, and education to literally all of its citizens, despite being economically isolated by the us and the rest of the world, and then went on to be instrumental in defeating apartheid and provides some of the best medical assistance in the world to third world countries. the authoritarianism and other problems should be critiqued where they exist, but if we're giving nuance to us presidents who have mostly all done terrible things, i don't see why it shouldn't be afforded here. So Fidel Castro eliminated political opponents for decades with firing squads and jail but at least he gave the citizens health care. ​Thank god! There is no moral equivalency here to US Presidents. None. Edited November 26, 2016 by Life Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nobody Posted November 26, 2016 Share Posted November 26, 2016 (edited) Because the presidents can be challenged in elections. A unpopular president could be overthrown by an election. Someone who hates an american president can voice that opinion. Americans can protest about Obama, Trump, whatever. IDK of any american president who lined up dissidents to shot them in the head. Cuba provides education, housing and education for it's citizens, yeah. But Cuba has quite a lot of misery in it. It also has homelessness, that's not exclusive to other countries. The people in there also can't have stuff that is considered trivial elsewhere. The embargo was a bad measure, but it's not the cause of all of this. There's a reason so many Cubans risked their lives escaping to miami in boats. Actually, I live in a third world country, and there were plenty of cubans who ran to here and never wanted to go back there. Edited November 26, 2016 by Nooooooooooooooooooooobody Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tryhard Posted November 27, 2016 Share Posted November 27, 2016 (edited) It's kinda strange how people give him credit for "making the trains run on time". I could say the same about Mussolini or Stalin or any other authoritarian. Of course, it's not really surprising that Putin went and made a statement that said, "Fidel Castro was a sincere and reliable friend of Russia". But other people praising him like Jeremy Corbyn or other world leaders doesn't really add up, because they are willing to overlook a lot because of the better conditions he brought. Edited November 27, 2016 by Tryhard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Life Posted November 27, 2016 Author Share Posted November 27, 2016 It's kinda strange how people give him credit for "making the trains run on time". I could say the same about Mussolini or Stalin or any other authoritarian. Of course, it's not really surprising that Putin went and made a statement that said, "Fidel Castro was a sincere and reliable friend of Russia". But other people praising him like Jeremy Corbyn or other world leaders doesn't really add up, because they are willing to overlook a lot because of the better conditions he brought. I'm ashamed of Trudeau but not surprised. Castro was a pallbearer at Pierre Elliot Trudeau's funeral (quite literally the worst PM we had ever had before his son got into politics). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crysta Posted November 27, 2016 Share Posted November 27, 2016 At least he died peacefully in his sleep at an old age, unlike his long list of victims. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tetragrammaton Posted November 27, 2016 Share Posted November 27, 2016 I can see there are so much hate from the Canada and US, what's about other countries citizens? Do you hate him so? From here we see him as a hero, it's CIA's fault to fail to assassinate him more than hundred times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nobody Posted November 27, 2016 Share Posted November 27, 2016 I can see there are so much hate from the Canada and US, what's about other countries citizens? Do you hate him so? From here we see him as a hero, it's CIA's fault to fail to assassinate him more than hundred times. I'm brazilian and i think he was awfulMost Cubans agree with me btw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tryhard Posted November 27, 2016 Share Posted November 27, 2016 (edited) Truthfully I do think his rebellion against Batista and resistance against the US (because the embargo was a bullshit measure) was quite inspiring in the anti-hero sort of way, but the disregard for civil liberties and ruling in an iron-fisted way prevents me from having a good opinion of his governance even if I might agree with his education and healthcare reforms. Priorities. It's probably in that regard why he's a polarising figure. I can't end up feeling happy he died because he hasn't been in the public eye for quite some time but it reminds me sort of when Margaret Thatcher (though not really comparable in terms of what they did) died and the split reactions to that. Edited November 27, 2016 by Tryhard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Holy Elf Posted November 27, 2016 Share Posted November 27, 2016 Castro is a complicated figure. I don't love him, but I also think the American hatred of him goes too far; if he hadn't thumbed his nose at America, few people in the US would care (how many Central American dictators of that era can you name?) He was a dictator and I have no love for those, but he did have some positive effects on Cuba (such as health care) and was an improvement over the awful Batista regime. There is definitely good and bad in there. I think Amnesty International's take is pretty good, and they care a lot more about human rights than the right-wing partisans quoted in the article: https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2016/11/fidel-castro-s-human-rights-legacy-a-tale-of-two-worlds/ The Emperor Nero comment is mine. What's funny is that Nero is also problematic but not as bad as he is sometimes made out to be (in Nero's case, the Christian attribution that he started the Great Fire of Rome is almost certainly false). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crysta Posted November 27, 2016 Share Posted November 27, 2016 Pretty sure those Cuban-Americans celebrating in Miami don't care much for how he thumbed his nose at America decades ago and care far more because he likely made their lives (or the lives of their relatives) a living hell. But that link also doesn't work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoenix Wright Posted November 27, 2016 Share Posted November 27, 2016 my buddy who just took a class on this has found that castro (and guevara) receives too much criticism. at least pre-revolution castro. i can't say i hold castro in a much worse light than i do andrew jackson or harry truman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rezzy Posted November 27, 2016 Share Posted November 27, 2016 Pre Revolution Castro can't really be the primary part you judge him by. He ruled Cuba with an iron fist for over half a century, and that's where people take issue with him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blah the Prussian Posted November 27, 2016 Share Posted November 27, 2016 my buddy who just took a class on this has found that castro (and guevara) receives too much criticism. at least pre-revolution castro. i can't say i hold castro in a much worse light than i do andrew jackson or harry truman. Truman? Seriously? Dammit, I thought we were over this after that other thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoenix Wright Posted November 27, 2016 Share Posted November 27, 2016 (edited) Pre Revolution Castro can't really be the primary part you judge him by. He ruled Cuba with an iron fist for over half a century, and that's where people take issue with him. well, it's not like i don't take issue with him. but i just don't think it's entirely fair to paint him a villain. similarly, i don't think it's entirely fair to paint gandhi a hero. point is, i'd like to see more subtlety in people's answers. ("no moral similarities to us presidents. none," from life for example, is unfair) Truman? Seriously? Dammit, I thought we were over this after that other thread. stop being condescending. it's not simple. also, that thread was only about whether or not he's a war criminal, which entirely depends on arbitrary metrics. Edited November 27, 2016 by Phoenix Wright Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rezzy Posted November 27, 2016 Share Posted November 27, 2016 well, it's not like i don't take issue with him. but i just don't think it's entirely fair to paint him a villain. similarly, i don't think it's entirely fair to paint gandhi a hero. point is, i'd like to see more subtlety in people's answers. ("no moral similarities to us presidents. none," from life for example, is unfair) Castro was a villain according to every person I've met who dealt first-hand with life in Cuba under him. He may not be Stalin-level evil, but he was a bad man. Gandhi wasn't perfect, but uttering his name in the same breath as Castro is a bit disingenuous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dwalin2010 Posted November 27, 2016 Share Posted November 27, 2016 (edited) There is one question, would be interesting to hear your opinions: When Castro came to power and the organized crime syndicates active under Battista lost their "strongholds" in Cuba, why didn't he put away for life or shoot the ones he managed to catch? He even had Santo Trafficante in jail, yet chose to release him, while he could have changed the mafia history instead. I thought, mob bosses weren't considered as a "socially friendly element" by the Communists? On the other hand, if they really did business with Pablo Escobar, it's said especially Raul Castro was involved in drug trafficking....I don't know. But in this case, they weren't "Communists by ideology", but just pretended to be that. A Communist leader letting go or even doing business with financial tycoons (criminal ones in this case), makes as much sense as an African American becoming a Ku Klux Klan leader, or a Nazi concentration camp executioner being of Jewish origins, imo. What did he exactly hope to accomplish by sending the crime bosses abroad free? That they would return to the USA and disrupt its economy? Edited November 27, 2016 by Dwalin2010 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rezzy Posted November 27, 2016 Share Posted November 27, 2016 There is one question, would be interesting to hear your opinions: When Castro came to power and the organized crime syndicates active under Battista lost their "strongholds" in Cuba, why didn't he put away for life or shoot the ones he managed to catch? He even had Santo Trafficante in jail, yet chose to release him, while he could have changed the mafia history instead. I thought, mob bosses weren't considered as a "socially friendly element" by the Communists? On the other hand, if they really did business with Pablo Escobar, it's said especially Raul Castro was involved in drug trafficking....I don't know. But in this case, they weren't "Communists by ideology", but just pretended to be that. A Communist leader letting go or even doing business with financial tycoons (criminal ones in this case), makes as much sense as an African American becoming a Ku Klux Klan leader, or a Nazi concentration camp executioner being of Jewish origins, imo. What did he exactly hope to accomplish by sending the crime bosses abroad free? That they would return to the USA and disrupt its economy? Cuba specific ideology aside. Communism cannot exist in international commerce. For trade between nations, some degree of capitalism has to take place. Unless a single nations managed to take over the world, there is no single government that would be able to enforce communist distribution to its people. With capitalism, since all trade is voluntary, you don't need an overreaching government to impose international commerce. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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