Fire Emblem Heroes General Discussion and Links

[Bartozio]

1 minute ago, Anacybele said:

42 attack is high for a dagger wielder though, and Seashell+ is one of the most powerful dagger weapons in the game. It's the second strongest, in fact. I've never had Kagero and I'm not changing his weapon.

However, I have started to think that Summer Freddy would get more use out of a different Blow skill. I don't have Death Blow available either, however.

42 attack is indeed high for a dagger wielder, but there's a reason almost none of them are used as nukes. It's not like he'll be unable to kill units, but almost any unit that is not a healer or a dagger-user will hit harder then him.

His niche lies in supporting your team by tanking hits and debuffing enemies, which he can do pretty well. He can do decent damage to enemies as well, but that's more of a bonus then his main role. As long as he's attacking, you're not wasting his attack stat.

Of course, you should use him however you want. I'm just telling you how I think he'll be most effective.

[Lushen]

3 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Except he is wiping teams with a dancer for me?

My Jaffar can kill any unit with a dancer.  Still, you're wasting two unit's turns to kill one of their units.  Nukers that can kill a unit by themselves are always going to be better. Think if you had Bride!Cordelia, she could potentially kill two units with a dancer in one turn.

[Anacybele]

5 minutes ago, Bartozio said:

42 attack is indeed high for a dagger wielder, but there's a reason almost none of them are used as nukes. It's not like he'll be unable to kill units, but almost any unit that is not a healer or a dagger-user will hit harder then him.

His niche lies in supporting your team by tanking hits and debuffing enemies, which he can do pretty well. He can do decent damage to enemies as well, but that's more of a bonus then his main role. As long as he's attacking, you're not wasting his attack stat.

Of course, you should use him however you want. I'm just telling you how I think he'll be most effective.

That's fine. I'm saying that's not what I think he'd be best at doing when he can utilize both those debuffs AND his attack to both support AND kill things. I never said he can't act as some support, he definitely does, I just don't think that's all he's good for when I can have him kill some stuff with Bonfire + increased damage from debuffs.

EDIT: @Lushen Except I don't have her and I never will because she's not available anymore. So I have to go with other options anyway.

Edited July 1, 2017 by Anacybele

[MrSmokestack]

12 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Except he is wiping teams with a dancer for me? I'm talking about on lunatic tower maps too. 42 attack is high for a dagger wielder and I forgot to mention that that goes up with boosts from things like Hone Atk.

It's not low for someone who uses a dagger. And Frederick can hit 48 easily. If he gets Hone Atk boosts and especially if he's +Atk, he can get there.

High Atk for a dagger user is still low Atk.

Kagero hitting only 48 Atk is acceptable because Poison Dagger's weapon effectiveness makes up for the difference. If you want Frederick to carry his weight as a "nuke", that dagger is by far a better option than the Seashell; and even then Kagero still uses it better because of her higher Spd.

If a unit is being supported by buffs and still needs a dance to KO one unit, their combat is worse than someone who can KO two units in one turn. Simple as that.

Don't make Frederick into someone he's not. He's a unit that delivers debuffs with an actual Atk stat, not a nuke. That's all we're trying to say.

Edited July 1, 2017 by MrSmokestack

[Anacybele]

8 minutes ago, MrSmokestack said:

High Atk for a dagger user is still low Atk.

Kagero hitting only 48 Atk is acceptable because Poison Dagger's weapon effectiveness makes up for the difference. If you want Frederick to carry his weight as a "nuke", that dagger is by far a better option than the Seashell; and even then Kagero still uses it better because of her higher Spd.

If a unit is being supported by buffs and still needs a dance to KO one unit, their combat is worse than someone who can KO two units in one turn. Simple as that.

Don't make Frederick into someone he's not. He's a unit that delivers debuffs with an actual Atk stat, not a nuke. That's all we're trying to say.

Alright, maybe nuke wasn't the right word then, I was wrong there. But I would still like to make him the best at killing things that he can possibly be.

Edited July 1, 2017 by Anacybele

[a bear]

I insist non-Poison daggers aren't as bad as people say. Chip damage and/or debuffs allow your other units to survive or win matchups they can't otherwise, Vantage/WoM aren't automatically dangerous, there's still plenty of popular skills that require high health to activate (QR, Breakers, Ragnarok, etc.), and they're not so powerless that they're completely incapable of finishing someone off.

Definitely harder to use than monster nukes though, I won't argue against that. Maybe less so in Infernal GHB or Lunatic TT.

[Bartozio]

1 minute ago, a bear said:

I insist non-Poison daggers aren't as bad as people say. Chip damage and/or debuffs allow your other units to survive or win matchups they can't otherwise, Vantage/WoM aren't automatically dangerous, there's still plenty of popular skills that require high health to activate (QR, Breakers, Ragnarok, etc.), and they're not so powerless that they're completely incapable of finishing someone off.

Definitely harder to use than monster nukes though, I won't argue against that. Maybe less so in Infernal GHB or Lunatic TT.

True, but most of the talk about poison daggers and such was about how S!Fredrick won't be a nuke. Chipping and debuffing is a form of supporting allies, and I was making the point that S!Fredrick was more of a support unit. Nobody actually said anything about debuffers or support units in general being bad.

In general though, I think a unit that can only debuff enemies and do chip damage will just be outdone by a ranged nuke, because dead enemies are better then debuffed enemies. If they are also good at tanking hits, they can have their uses though, especially on GHB maps.

[Othin]

Finished training up my s!Gaius! Unfortunately, he's -Atk, which makes him not hit very hard at all.

Fortunately, the duplicate 5* Boey I picked up seems to actually be relevant, since he's -HP, +Spd rather than -Atk, +Res: a huge improvement, aside from making Earth Boost a bit harder to use. I want to merge the old one into him, but he'll need some time in the Training Tower to get the last bit of SP to finish learning Renewal 3, since it'd be a waste to lose that SP. Less time than without the bonus, though.

[Lushen]

14 minutes ago, a bear said:

I insist non-Poison daggers aren't as bad as people say. Chip damage and/or debuffs allow your other units to survive or win matchups they can't otherwise, Vantage/WoM aren't automatically dangerous, there's still plenty of popular skills that require high health to activate (QR, Breakers, Ragnarok, etc.), and they're not so powerless that they're completely incapable of finishing someone off.

Definitely harder to use than monster nukes though, I won't argue against that. Maybe less so in Infernal GHB or Lunatic TT.

It's AWFUL in vortex related gamemodes.  A good dagger unit has enough def/res/spd to survive at least one hit after/while they debuff.  This will allow them or another unit to finish them off.  In vortex, they're likely to get hit once and unless you have a healer (in which case you're looking at two nocolor units) they're going to be hiding in the back for the rest of the match.  IMO, they should have gave dagger units 3 mobillity or at least given them a B-slot skill that lets them move 3 spaces.  They're supposed to be units that can fly in and tip the odds in your favor.  Dagger units deserve something special about them, not just to be debuffing archers.  In the game, they can open chests and dodge hits like crazy.  In FEH, they just kind of made them debuffing archers.

The only exception to this is units like Mathew, Fredrik, and Saizo who can function as debuffing tanks and might be able to survive a couple of hits.  Still, I find colored units to be better for tanking because certain units will literally do 0 damage to them.

In arena, they're fine.  If your team has a few pitfalls, you can use a dagger unit to make just about any unit killable.  Just watch out for high attack DC units or high atk/spd mages.  Them getting hit once in an arena match is not a big deal because there are usually only two-four rounds with combat going on.

Edited July 1, 2017 by Lushen

[a bear]

@Bartozio See, that's what I get for jumping into a conversation

@Lushen Any given dagger user shouldn't be any different than any mage or archer who just can't ORKO anyone towards the end, and low HP is just low HP. You either have a means to heal (staff or otherwise) or your dudes are built around staying messed up (DC Vantage, Desperation, Escape/WoM, etc.). Not that I would force myself to use non-bonus infantry units when turn count is a factor, but yeah.

[Lushen]

2 minutes ago, a bear said:

@Bartozio See, that's what I get for jumping into a conversation

@Lushen Any given dagger user shouldn't be any different than any mage or archer who just can't ORKO anyone towards the end, and low HP is just low HP. You either have a means to heal (staff or otherwise) or your dudes are built around staying messed up (DC Vantage, Desperation, Escape/WoM, etc.). Not that I would force myself to use non-bonus infantry units when turn count is a factor, but yeah.

I was actually agreeing with you.  I don't think they're good for Vortex, but I think they're fine in arena.  The difference is they can't ORKO anyone really while other units can.  

Edited July 1, 2017 by Lushen

[a bear]

Oh, I was talking about Vortex specifically

[Arcanite]

Jaffar in tempest torture was awesome

[shadowofchaos]

35 minutes ago, a bear said:

I insist non-Poison daggers aren't as bad as people say. Chip damage and/or debuffs allow your other units to survive or win matchups they can't otherwise, Vantage/WoM aren't automatically dangerous, there's still plenty of popular skills that require high health to activate (QR, Breakers, Ragnarok, etc.), and they're not so powerless that they're completely incapable of finishing someone off.

Definitely harder to use than monster nukes though, I won't argue against that. Maybe less so in Infernal GHB or Lunatic TT.

I know you already addressed it in a previous post, but just clarifying that we never said dagger Frederick or any dagger unit was bad.

It's just that given how they were comparing Frederick to Klein or other defined "nuke" unit... Frederick doesn't have high enough attack to start sweeping units in any sense of how we, as a community of players, classify nuke units in the Arena.

26 minutes ago, Lushen said:

It's AWFUL in vortex related gamemodes.  A good dagger unit has enough def/res/spd to survive at least one hit after/while they debuff.  This will allow them or another unit to finish them off.  In vortex, they're likely to get hit once and unless you have a healer (in which case you're looking at two nocolor units) they're going to be hiding in the back for the rest of the match.  IMO, they should have gave dagger units 3 mobillity or at least given them a B-slot skill that lets them move 3 spaces.  They're supposed to be units that can fly in and tip the odds in your favor.  Dagger units deserve something special about them, not just to be debuffing archers.  In the game, they can open chests and dodge hits like crazy.  In FEH, they just kind of made them debuffing archers.

The only exception to this is units like Mathew, Fredrik, and Saizo who can function as debuffing tanks and might be able to survive a couple of hits.  Still, I find colored units to be better for tanking because certain units will literally do 0 damage to them.

In arena, they're fine.  If your team has a few pitfalls, you can use a dagger unit to make just about any unit killable.  Just watch out for high attack DC units or high atk/spd mages.  Them getting hit once in an arena match is not a big deal because there are usually only two-four rounds with combat going on.

As for good dagger units, I personally have some bias towards the Felicia on my friends list sets up the "no counter" Windsweep.

@Fei Mao

They have Attack Ploy to decrease mage atk and tank with huge res.

As for distant counter heavy hitter units like Hector and Ryouma... I've just been avoiding damage from them altogether. Glacies is a nice finisher by the time there's stragglers coming in for that Felicia.

[GuiltyLove]

16 minutes ago, shadowofchaos said:

I know you already addressed it in a previous post, but just clarifying that we never said dagger Frederick or any dagger unit was bad.

It's just that given how they were comparing Frederick to Klein or other defined "nuke" unit... Frederick doesn't have high enough attack to start sweeping units in any sense of how we, as a community of players, classify nuke units in the Arena.

As for good dagger units, I personally have some bias towards the Felicia on my friends list sets up the "no counter" Windsweep.

@Fei Mao

They have Attack Ploy to decrease mage atk and tank with huge res.

As for distant counter heavy hitter units like Hector and Ryouma... I've just been avoiding damage from them altogether. Glacies is a nice finisher by the time there's stragglers coming in for that Felicia.

30 attack....... Oh man. So weak!

[Kaden]

3 minutes ago, GuiltyLove said:

30 attack....... Oh man. So weak!

Meanwhile, Azama and Odin. :p

Anyway, it's kind of fun seeing 4* Reinhardt double units because they were nearby and got affected by Clarisse's Bow's debuff. Also, Clarisse's Japanese voice. On one hand, English Clarisse is like an angry Edea and on the other hand, Japanese Clarisse sounds pretty badass.

[GuiltyLove]

2 minutes ago, Kaden said:

Anyway, it's kind of fun seeing 4* Reinhardt

No. It's never fun seeing him unless he's dead

2 minutes ago, Kaden said:

On one hand, English Clarisse is like an angry Edea

Mrgrgr?

Mrgrgr!

Edited July 1, 2017 by GuiltyLove

[shadowofchaos]

13 minutes ago, GuiltyLove said:

30 attack....... Oh man. So weak!

Well the point is to be a mage tank and debuff def and res by 5, so I don't expect her to do damage to anything like Hector.

...that is unless she has Glacies charged.

[Lushen]

7 minutes ago, shadowofchaos said:

Well the point is to be a mage tank and debuff def and res by 5, so I don't expect her to do damage to anything like Hector.

...that is unless she has Glacies charged.

I'm also trying to train a Felcia.  She seems most useful as a mage baiter and the -5def/res debuff pretty much guarantees she'll be able to kill the mage you baited next turn.  Not S-Tier but can be useful situationally in certain scenarios.  

edit: Also glacies.  My dagger units always tend to trigger specials a lot and glacies with Felcia is awesome.  

Edited July 1, 2017 by Lushen

[Kaden]

16 minutes ago, GuiltyLove said:

Mrgrgr?

Mrgrgr!

Mrgrgr.

[Bartozio]

22 minutes ago, GuiltyLove said:

No. It's never fun seeing him unless he's dead

But you pretty much need to see him before you can kill him right?

[GuiltyLove]

4 minutes ago, Bartozio said:

But you pretty much need to see him before you can kill him right?

Crap

You got me

[Cute Chao]

Felicia always gave me trouble in Tempest Trials, since my main strat was kill everyone with Reinhardt xD 

That Glacies is killer -.- I tried to get her with Xander where I could, and it usually worked, but I did get some surprise deaths because of a gang up of her and some others on occasion... Darn you Felicia! 

I struggle to train mine up. I will do it someday... when there aren't any swimsuit Gaiuses around xD 

[Kaden]

7 minutes ago, Bartozio said:

But you pretty much need to see him before you can kill him right?

If Reinhardt falls off his horse leading him to fall down a cliff and no one is around to see him, did he really die? :p

[GuiltyLove]

3 minutes ago, Kaden said:

If Reinhardt falls off his horse leading him to fall down a cliff and no one is around to see him, did he really die? :p

Ah, the major philosophical question of our time...