Class Favourite 3: Fighter/Pirate

[Slumber]

1 minute ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

IMHO, most of the really good axe users came after FE7 (I find it very hard to think of good GBA axe users not named Hector, Hawkeye, or Geitz).

Ross is obnoxious, Garcia's a garbage unit, Dozla's boring and bad, Largo's useless, Boyd's fine, Nolan's cool but definitely not the DB unit I'd spend time and EXP leveling up, Vaike is a crime against nature, Basilio I already covered, Arthur's way too gimmicky as a character and not a super great unit, and Charlotte's alright. Rinkah's a bit boring but a decent unit. There've been no outstanding axe units in the modern FE era(I'd argue that there haven't been any GREAT ones since Ross, and Ross is just... Ross). Compare to Dart, Geese and Gonzales who are the two units that justify the existence of axes in FE6, and the FE5 Fighters, who are the best units to ever wield an axe, and they're just awful. Really just straight up trash. At best they've been "alright" pretty much since Dart.

[Shadow Mir]

25 minutes ago, Slumber said:

Ross is obnoxious, Garcia's a garbage unit, Dozla's boring and bad, Largo's useless, Boyd's fine, Nolan's cool but definitely not the DB unit I'd spend time and EXP leveling up, Vaike is a crime against nature, Basilio I already covered, Arthur's way too gimmicky as a character and not a super great unit, and Charlotte's alright. Rinkah's a bit boring but a decent unit. There've been no outstanding axe units in the modern FE era(I'd argue that there haven't been any GREAT ones since Ross, and Ross is just... Ross). Compare to Dart, Geese and Gonzales who are the two units that justify the existence of axes in FE6, and the FE5 Fighters, who are the best units to ever wield an axe, and they're just awful. Really just straight up trash. At best they've been "alright" pretty much since Dart.

Well, I don't exactly have a high opinion on most axe users, as I stated earlier, especially Dart, who's rather inaccurate, Gonzales, who's even worse off in the accuracy department thanks to axe accuracy being godawful, in addition to being in one of the worst games to be locked to axes in, and Geese, who doesn't have it that much better (it doesn't help the case of the latter two that they need a Hero Crest to promote, either; Dart doesn't have it much better thanks to his promotion item being easy to miss, in which case you're practically out of luck). So I'd say I'd have better luck trying to find a needle in a haystack than trying to find a good GBA axe user (outside of those three I named, that is), because those three you named fail miserably by my standards.

Edited January 26, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Slumber]

29 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Well, I don't exactly have a high opinion on most axe users, as I stated earlier, especially Dart, who's rather inaccurate, Gonzales, who's even worse off in the accuracy department thanks to axe accuracy being godawful, in addition to being in one of the worst games to be locked to axes in, and Geese, who doesn't have it that much better (it doesn't help the case of the latter two that they need a Hero Crest to promote, either). So I'd say I'd have better luck trying to find a needle in a haystack than trying to find a good GBA axe user, because those three you named fail miserably by my standards.

A lot of Dart's early game problems can be fixed by just giving him an iron axe. It lets him take better use of his incredible speed, his hit% raises noticeably, and once he promotes, his crit skyrockets and you're likely to crit more than hit normally. His skill is mediocre, but it's not enough to offset the raw damage he's capable of doing. The thing that has always elevated Berserkers over Warriors is the double-roll with crits that makes their hit rates super deceiving.

Gonzales definitely has problems hitting stuff, but Geese has rather high skill, which translates to a much higher crit% when he promotes, which again, mostly offsets the awful hit% of axes in FE6. Geese, Gonzales and Dart are also fairly fast, which usually gives them twice the chance to hit/crit. Now, all of this can also be said of Ross, but again, the less said about him the better.

Edited January 26, 2017 by Slumber

[Shadow Mir]

24 minutes ago, Slumber said:

A lot of Dart's early game problems can be fixed by just giving him an iron axe. It lets him take better use of his incredible speed, his hit% raises noticeably, and once he promotes, his crit skyrockets and you're likely to crit more than hit normally. His skill is mediocre, but it's not enough to offset the raw damage he's capable of doing. The thing that has always elevated Berserkers over Warriors is the double-roll with crits that makes their hit rates super deceiving.

Gonzales definitely has problems hitting stuff, but Geese has rather high skill, which translates to a much higher crit% when he promotes, which again, mostly offsets the awful hit% of axes in FE6. Geese, Gonzales and Dart are also fairly fast, which usually gives them twice the chance to hit/crit. Now, all of this can also be said of Ross, but again, the less said about him the better.

That doesn't really make up for the promotion item conundrum mentioned earlier, if you ask me...

I dunno about you, but I'm far from enthusiastic about having to gamble every time they see combat, especially Gonzales, whose low skill and axelock can only be called a recipe for disaster. Also, I still see them as among the lower end of the Hero Crest pecking order.

[Slumber]

7 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

That doesn't really make up for the promotion item conundrum mentioned earlier, if you ask me...

I dunno about you, but I'm far from enthusiastic about having to gamble every time they see combat, especially Gonzales, whose low skill and axelock can only be called a recipe for disaster. Also, I still see them as among the lower end of the Hero Crest pecking order.

Gonzales is my least favorite of the GBA pre-Berserkers purely because of the gambling aspect, but he's the absolute best in the game when it comes to consistently dishing out damage, so I always throw him a bone. Geese, however, is the absolute best choice(IMO) for an axer promotion. Nobody else besides Gonzales even comes close.

And while Hero Crests are precious, they're not precious enough that you can't afford one to flesh out your party a bit. If you're wasting them all, then I don't know what to tell you. Either Rutger or Fir and Dieck are likely the first choices, but I'd pick Geese over a second Swordmaster or Ogier any day of the week. And Gonzales definitely gets preferential treatment over Wade or Lott.

Dart gets kind of hamstrung over that Ocean's Seal, but it's not hard to get, and unless you're going for a ranking run, he's literally the only candidate for it.

Edited January 26, 2017 by Slumber

[Shadow Mir]

7 minutes ago, Slumber said:

Gonzales is my least favorite of the GBA pre-Berserkers purely because of the gambling aspect, but he's the absolute best in the game when it comes to consistently dishing out damage, so I always throw him a bone. Geese, however, is the absolute best choice(IMO) for an axer promotion. Nobody else besides Gonzales even comes close.

And while Hero Crests are precious, they're not precious enough that you can't afford one to flesh out your party a bit. If you're wasting them all, then I don't know what to tell you. Either Rutger or Fir and Dieck are likely the first choices, but I'd pick Geese over a second Swordmaster or Ogier any day of the week. And Gonzales definitely gets preferential treatment over Wade or Lott.

Dart gets kind of hamstrung over that Ocean's Seal, but it's not hard to get, and unless you're going for a ranking run, he's literally the only candidate for it.

Being able to do a lot of damage doesn't mean much if your accuracy is on par with the Imperial Stormtroopers in Star Wars. Also, Geese being the best first tier axe user is about as meaningful as being the best archer, which is to say, it isn't.

You only get two Hero Crests before chapter 16, and one of them requires you to bust your ass to get. Personally, I see getting a berserker over promoting someone else (other than those fighters, that is) to be a losing trade thanks to their lack of reliability.

It's still a problem unless you have a photographic memory, since he's practically worthless if you miss it.

[Slumber]

14 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Being able to do a lot of damage doesn't mean much if your accuracy is on par with the Imperial Stormtroopers in Star Wars. Also, Geese being the best first tier axe user is about as meaningful as being the best archer, which is to say, it isn't.

You only get two Hero Crests before chapter 16, and one of them requires you to bust your ass to get. Personally, I see getting a berserker over promoting someone else (other than those fighters, that is) to be a losing trade thanks to their lack of reliability.

It's still a problem unless you have a photographic memory, since he's practically worthless if you miss it.

His accuracy isn't that bad, since you can easily get his crit above 50, which gives you double rolls in case you miss with a basic attack. And again, he also has very good speed, which will usually allow him two hits in fights. This goes double for Gonzales, who can be a VERY fast unit.

Again, he's probably the best choice #3 for a Hero Crest, and while that second one is a pain to get, it's not impossible by any means. Dancing those chapters can be a pain, but it's definitely doable. And if you are as hard-pressed for Hero Crests as you seem to suggest, why wouldn't you put in that extra effort to get the one in chapter 10/11? I always get two before chapter 16, and I've never felt like it was that big of a strain.

And again, we're not talking about these axers in a vacuum. We're comparing them to each other. Geese(And Gonzales) is a good unit, and he's worth that extra effort compared to say... Ross, who if you want to maximize his effectiveness, will also compete for a very rare promotion item in his game. And Geese, unlike Ross, is in a very difficult game where there can be a noticeable difference by having a good axe user in your team, especially with how often the game tosses tanky Wyvern Lords at you in the lategame of FE6.

I may have been selling Boyd short by saying IS dropped the ball with axe units after FE7, but I stand by that argument for pretty much every other axe user outside of him. I've broken down how I feel about the other axe units from FE8 and 10, and I can go over it again, but the "modern" axe units are just awful. Their in-game designs are bad to the point of being unpleasant to look at, they're pretty meh/unremarkable units to use, and half of them have intolerable personalities.

Edited January 26, 2017 by Slumber

[Shadow Mir]

21 minutes ago, Slumber said:

His accuracy isn't that bad, since you can easily get his crit above 50, which gives you double rolls in case you miss with a basic attack. And again, he also has very good speed, which will usually allow him two hits in fights. This goes double for Gonzales, who can be a VERY fast unit.

Again, he's probably the best choice #3 for a Hero Crest, and while that second one is a pain to get, it's not impossible by any means. Dancing those chapters can be a pain, but it's definitely doable. And if you are as hard-pressed for Hero Crests as you seem to suggest, why wouldn't you put in that extra effort to get the one in chapter 10/11? I always get two before chapter 16, and I've never felt like it was that big of a strain.

And again, we're not talking about these axers in a vacuum. We're comparing them to each other. Geese(And Gonzales) is a good unit, and he's worth that extra effort compared to say... Ross, who if you want to maximize his effectiveness, will also compete for a very rare promotion item in his game. And Geese, unlike Ross, is in a very difficult game where there can be a noticeable difference by having a good axe user in your team, especially with how often the game tosses tanky Wyvern Lords at you in the lategame of FE6.

I may have been selling Boyd short by saying IS dropped the ball with axe units after FE7, but I stand by that argument for pretty much every other axe user outside of him. I've broken down how I feel about the other axe units from FE8 and 10, and I can go over it again, but the "modern" axe units are just awful. Their in-game designs are bad to the point of being unpleasant to look at, they're pretty meh/unremarkable units to use, and half of them have intolerable personalities.

That doesn't change the fact that their unreliability costs games, if you ask me, especially since the enemies in Sword of Seals aren't the jokes that the other two GBA games had. And no amount of power or speed makes up for Gonzales's lack of accuracy, as I see it.

Because those chapters are headaches, maybe?

I don't see them as anywhere near "good", especially Gonzales, who doesn't even qualify as mediocre by my standards. Also, I've seen Hero recommended more for Ross these days. 

Likewise, I stand by my earlier opinion that the GBA axe users are lost causes. That's not to say I think all that highly of the modern era axe users, because I don't.

Edited January 26, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[KoimanZX]

6 minutes ago, Slumber said:

His accuracy isn't that bad, since you can easily get his crit above 50, which gives you double rolls in case you miss with a basic attack. And again, he also has very good speed, which will usually allow him two hits in fights. This goes double for Gonzales, who can be a VERY fast unit.

Again, he's probably the best choice #3 for a Hero Crest, and while that second one is a pain to get, it's not impossible by any means. Dancing those chapters can be a pain, but it's definitely doable. And if you are as hard-pressed for Hero Crests as you seem to suggest, why wouldn't you put in that extra effort to get the one in chapter 10/11? I always get two before chapter 16, and I've never felt like it was that big of a strain.

And again, we're not talking about these axers in a vacuum. We're comparing them to each other. Geese(And Gonzales) is a good unit, and he's worth that extra effort compared to say... Ross, who if you want to maximize his effectiveness, will also compete for a very rare promotion item in his game. And Geese, unlike Ross, is in a very difficult game where there can be a noticeable difference by having a good axe user in your team, especially with how often the game tosses tanky Wyvern Lords at you in the lategame of FE6.

I may have been selling Boyd short by saying IS dropped the ball with axe units after FE7, but I stand by that argument for pretty much every other axe user outside of him. I've broken down how I feel about the other axe units from FE8 and 10, and I can go over it again, but the "modern" axe units are just awful. Their in-game designs are bad to the point of being unpleasant to look at, they're pretty meh/unremarkable units to use, and half of them have intolerable personalities.

Boyd is pretty cool, especially in Radiant Dawn where he can tank physical hits fairly well and hits very hard. I also agree with your assessment of the Maeda-era ax users with their bad designs and lacking performance (Harold and Charlotte both take too much effort to make good and are not all that worth it in the end). I guess I liked the manly-man aesthetic of these ax men before, but their bad performance in Fates has really hurt my view of them (It really is pretty bad when the best berserker in Fates is a boss character of all things). 

[Slumber]

10 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

That doesn't change the fact that their unreliability costs games, if you ask me, especially since the enemies in Sword of Seals aren't the jokes that the other two GBA games had.

Because those chapters are headaches, maybe?

I don't see them as anywhere near "good", especially Gonzales, who doesn't even qualify as mediocre by my standards. Also, I've seen Hero recommended more for Ross these days. 

Likewise, I stand by my earlier opinion that the GBA axe users are lost causes. That's not to say I think all that highly of the modern era axe users, because I don't.

One good axe user is a lot more valuable than having two good sword users by end-game in FE6. The sheer number of high defense lance users that you have to fight in the last few chapters absolutely validates the justification of giving a Hero Crest to Geese at some point.

This is Fire Emblem. Since when is "Ahhhh, it's too hard to do this?" ever a good excuse to not do something in this series? Especially when it comes to getting promotion items. I think you're overselling the annoyance of getting a Hero Crest in 10B/11A. It's far from the hardest thing you even have to do in FE6 alone, and it's absolutely worth the extra effort to do(I actually like the dancing you have to do in 11A to get the Crest).

You maybe don't see them as good, but I see a good axe unit as very valuable, especially in FE6. And Hero may be recommended for Ross, but if I recall, that ends up with him being fairly weak compared to Warrior and Berserker just for sheer convenience. I'd never give up the crit boost to have a Hero, especially when Gerik is already doing an exceptional job at that. Plus, that only leaves you with Dozla and Garcia as axe units, who are complete garbage.

Edited January 26, 2017 by Slumber

[Shadow Mir]

15 minutes ago, Slumber said:

One good axe user is a lot more valuable than having two good sword users by end-game in FE6. The sheer number of high defense lance users that you have to fight in the last few chapters absolutely validates the justification of giving a Hero Crest to Geese at some point.

This is Fire Emblem. Since when is "Ahhhh, it's too hard to do this?" ever a good excuse to not do something in this series? Especially when it comes to getting promotion items. I think you're overselling the annoyance of getting a Hero Crest in 10B/11A. It's far from the hardest thing you even have to do in FE6 alone, and it's absolutely worth the extra effort to do(I actually like the dancing you have to do in 11A to get the Crest).

You maybe don't see them as good, but I see a good axe unit as very valuable, especially in FE6. And Hero may be recommended for Ross, but if I recall, that ends up with him being fairly weak compared to Warrior and Berserker just for sheer convenience. I'd never give up the crit boost to have a Hero, especially when Gerik is already doing an exceptional job at that. Plus, that only leaves you with Dozla and Garcia as axe units, who are complete garbage.

Not when the axe user needs a boatload of effort to get there and doesn't even perform nearly well enough on the battlefield to justify it, it isn't.

Maybe because the game in question is frustrating as all hell?

You can blame my low opinion of axe users (which is thanks to most of them having lackluster performance) for that (and Fates for not helping since Arthur and Charlotte both flat out suck).

[Slumber]

1 minute ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Not when the axe user needs a boatload of effort to get there and doesn't even perform nearly well enough on the battlefield to justify it, it isn't.

Maybe because the game in question is frustrating as all hell?

You can blame my low opinion of axe users (which is thanks to most of them having lackluster performance) for that (and Fates for not helping since Arthur and Charlotte both flat out suck).

Maybe we'll just have to put "irreconcilable differences" on our divorce papers, then.

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

Classic: Othin because of pugi and wrath.

Veteran: Nolan because FE really needs speed fighters with mustaches.

Modern: Arthur because he's decent enough overall.

 

[Shadow Mir]

7 hours ago, Slumber said:

Maybe we'll just have to put "irreconcilable differences" on our divorce papers, then.

Heh. Maybe once IS learns to not consistently churn out terribad axe users might I see things differently, but it's futile now.

 

8 hours ago, KoimanZX said:

Boyd is pretty cool, especially in Radiant Dawn where he can tank physical hits fairly well and hits very hard. I also agree with your assessment of the Maeda-era ax users with their bad designs and lacking performance (Harold and Charlotte both take too much effort to make good and are not all that worth it in the end). I guess I liked the manly-man aesthetic of these ax men before, but their bad performance in Fates has really hurt my view of them (It really is pretty bad when the best berserker in Fates is a boss character of all things). 

Personally, I saw Boyd as being better in PoR, but ehhh. Anyways, I can see where you're coming from to a point, other than the part where my opinion of axe users was already rather low before Fates. Arthur and Charlotte were both honestly pretty terrible - can't hit worth a damn, and they have the misfortune of being in a game where Berserkers are innately susceptible to critical hits (which practically destroyed their worth as a class to me), and that's on top of their other shortcomings as units.