Meg Topic

[sandmanccl]

You are mistaken. Unless you're talking about later chapters, like 1-4 and on, in which case you're talking about something else entirely. By then, you can forge iron axes, so he has no more reason to use any unforged steel or iron.

I am talking about the later chapters. =\

The reason you're still using an unforged steel axe is because you already have an unforged steel axe and spending unnecessary money is unnecessary. His reason for wielding it is so you can buy the various stat boosters and powerful weaponry from the specialty vendor.

I have never found forged weapons to be worth the money, in any of my multiple playthroughs of the game. They are novelties that kind of help a little bit in the final chapters for people who aren't running around with S-rank weapons.

I can count one chapter (1-5) where you can do that. The other chapters either don't have ledges or don't have enemies below the ledges. Or don't have enemies below them that you need 3 range to reach. And this is also beside the point.

Most the ledges have 2 spots where enemies can get up. Leo with the longbow will be able to attack the same one your other unit blocking can attack while still keeping the ledge blocked. It usually only takes two guys to take out an enemy in one turn, so you get through thicker forces faster.

There's ledges in 1-7 and 1-10, both of which see enemy spawns below you. Make use of them.

How is it beside the point? Use the best possible strategy to get through every map, and you'll see Leonardo sitting on the ledge with even maybe Ilyana there as well to pew-pew on people below.

Stop using Elthunder. It sucks. You can forge a thunder tome that's just as strong but with much more hit for the same cost or not much more.

Except that you have a copy of Elthunder from the get-go, and Ilyana's skill doesn't make up for the low hit chance on even regular Thunder tomes?

See my argument with Nolan. Why spend money on Forged weapons when you can not spend money on weapons at all?

This isn't about later on. This is about who starts off not sucking. I know Ilyana is terrible and Leo is better. She just doesn't start terrible. She starts faster than Leo, doing much more damage, and has more versatility (can counter melee and avoid counters from archers).

Leonardo is still incredibly useful in Part 1, and has tremendously better growths than Ilyana all around. She starts better, but doesn't start good enough for any of that "better" to matter because she's still not fast enough to double-attack, nor is she accurate, nor is she durable.

and to your Micaiah bit.. Micaiah has about 8 spd by the time you get Ilyana, who has 13.

post that started this discussion:

Everyone starts sucking except Nolan, Jill, and Ilyana. Mostly Nolan.

Irrelevant. Micaiah one-shots horses and armors, Ilyana does not. Ilyana's still not double-attacking anything so while she might be SLIGHTLY more durable than Micaiah (and most of that is due to Shade saving her from being attacked), Micaiah is doing a lot more damage. By like. A lot. + A-rank support. + main character. + using Ilyana hurts the Dawn Brigade on chapters where they need all the help they can get. At 20/--, Micaiah has 13.65 speed (so 13 or 14 on average) while Ilyana has 15.4 (so 15 or 16 on average). Neither are going to be double-attacking anything. Even if you get Ilyana to 20/20, she's going to have an abysmal 22 speed. Comparing apples to apples, man, except one of those apples is a main character you will be using regardless of personal preference and the other is a throwaway unit there's plenty of reasons to not use.

And actually, everyone in the DB ranks among the best in the game end-game. It's just that you can't raise most of them to be good end-game on the same playthrough. Nolan and Edward are God-like, Jill is pretty good, Aran is amazing, Laura is amazing, Meg and Leo are pretty good, even Fiona has the potential to be utterly amazing. Go. Compare end-game stats. If they lack behind any of the other units in the same tree, also keep in mind they've had a much longer time to gain bonus experience levels while having stats capped so you can rest assured there's a good 10 stats if that few you can spread among what's not maxed out.

[Former Guest]

I fail to see how Leonardo ever becomes better than Ilyana if you're actually willing to promote him twice. Being harder to raise and performing a lot worse for so long isn't doing the player any favors. Then there's his far lower starting level, decidedly lower base AS, inferior damage output, inferior class/skill/weapon type, etc. He can't even one-round in part 3 with Lughnasadh if you waste EXP on him so he can be second tier and persists in having durability among the entire roster's worst.

http://forums.feplanet.net/index.php?showtopic=25967

LOL! Leonardo is trash. Defending him is a fool's crusade.

[sandmanccl]

I'd rather defend an underrated unit than be a tool incapable of processing data I witness with my own eyes.

Leonardo has better attack speed than Ilyana, which isn't saying much because both of them have terrible speed. Slighting one side in this argument means slighting both sides because they both have the same problems.

While magic may hit harder than bows initially, Leonardo at least has the potential to double attack, something Ilyana can NEVER do unless extremely overleveled, something that is tremendously difficult for her to do because her base stats are awful and her growths are pretty under-stellar in every area. Enemies tend to have higher resistances in this game than in previous FE titles, as well, so the damage per hit isn't nearly as significant

Arguing that she can at least counter in melee is funny because she's not likely to get attacked unless the AI recognizes they can kill her that round. Even then, she's going to die just as easily as Leonardo because her defense is pathetic and her HP is also pathetic and her speed is also pathetic and her luck is also pathetic. You're going to be protecting both of them the vast majority of the game and if you don't recognize how to do that, you fail at strategy games and should stick with mainstream Final Fantasy titles.

Leo is plenty good for the chapters you can use him for without having to force a unit onto your bench, while Ilyana can happily stay benched the entire game without causing you a moment's loss of sleep because she's never strategically necessary, ever.

Edited November 3, 2008 by sandmanccl

[Florete]

inferior class/skill/weapon type, etc.

I loled.

Marksmen might be the best class in the game.

Cancel is great for magic enemies.

Bows are considerably stronger in this than in previous games except the Iron Bow. Double Bow is possibly the best SS weapon. There's Rolf's Bow, the Silencers, stronger Longbows, and Crossbows for awesome combos with beastfoe. Bows are pretty great.

[sandmanccl]

Fox:

Don't forget Leo actually has pretty awesome resistances so even if he doesn't cancel against enemy mages, they won't hurt him very much.

[Reikken]

How is it beside the point?

because the topic is who does or doesn't start out sucking

1-E has nothing to do with how these units start out.

The reason you're still using an unforged steel axe is because you already have an unforged steel axe and spending unnecessary money is unnecessary. His reason for wielding it is so you can buy the various stat boosters and powerful weaponry from the specialty vendor.

It has what, 10 uses left? If even that. Weapons break. You'll need another axe. A forged iron axe is cheaper as well as lighter and more accurate than a steel axe. And you can sell that steel axe, too.

Why spend money on Forged weapons when you can not spend money on weapons at all?

the same reason you're spending 100 per use on a longbow. So your units can perform better. And it's really not that expensive.

A forged iron axe that's as powerful as a steel axe costs about 15 per use. That's as much as a plain unforged iron bow. Even one with maxed mt still costs only 28 per use, less than a steel bow. There's really no reason at all to not use forged axes. They're cheap no matter what.

Thunder magic is more expensive, but it's still much cheaper than longbows. One with +10 hit (more hit than an iron bow or a longbow at 3 range with a height advantage) costs 31 per use. One with +10 hit and as much mt as Elthunder costs about 40 per use. (Elthunder is 42 per use. It sucks.)

Ilyana's still not double-attacking anything so while she might be SLIGHTLY more durable than Micaiah (and most of that is due to Shade saving her from being attacked)

I don't remember about normal mode, but on hard mode, Micaiah gets doubled and OHK'd by nearly everything, while Ilyana doesn't. That's a very substantial durability difference.

At 20/--, Micaiah has 13.65 speed (so 13 or 14 on average) while Ilyana has 15.4 (so 15 or 16 on average).

Ilyana also hits 20 earlier and is free to promote in part 1, while Micaiah has to wait.

Edited November 3, 2008 by Reikken

[Former Guest]

and Crossbows for awesome combos with beastfoe. Bows are pretty great.

And Crossbows suck. No getting around that.

Two weak wannabe debaters start knocking heads and arguing crap units like Leonardo are underrated. I was wondering when the double-standards would start emerging.

Leo is plenty good for the chapters you can use him for without having to force a unit onto your bench

No, he's whiffing at the one-rounding thing, to say nothing of survival. Are you that dense or did you not read Inui's posts?

I'd rather defend an underrated unit than be a tool incapable of processing data I witness with my own eyes.

Unnecessary self-descriptory reveal, but hopefully you plan to turn over that new leaf soon and start following this model example you propose. 'Would rather' isn't good enough, poor tool.

[General Spoon]

Question: How many of you have seen Leo's marksmen outfit? I have. It looks awesome.

[Florete]

Two weak wannabe debaters start knocking heads and arguing crap units like Leonardo are underrated. I was wondering when the double-standards would start emerging.

You sir, have just pissed me the hell off. Never compare me with debaters. I don't even like Leo, I'm here to defend Rolf and the class itself. Crossbows only suck when used alone, yet even then it's handy to have one ready. On 3-6, 3-13, and 4-5, Crossbow + Beastfoe rules the day when enemies are being murdered in one shot.

[sandmanccl]

Cool. Former Guest is a troll. Not even going to bother giving him a reply.

@ Reikken: How does he start out sucking? He's dealing plenty of damage to enemies (because on average, you need to hit them about 3 times to take them out, so one unit alone won't do it and often times you're forced to use 3), attacks from range to keep your melee units from risking counter-attacks, and has excellent growths?

Ilyana's damage output is only slightly better, and even then only for a limited time. When she rejoins later, she's a throwaway unit because you have much better people, but Leonardo is at least capable of being a valuable unit up until part 4 on any playthrough, in many of the most difficult maps in the game.

[Reikken]

Well, that would depend on your standards for sucking. When you're losing to other units by as much as Leo is losing to Nolan, and enemies are stronger than you, I would consider that to be sucking.

and has excellent growths?

This is again beside the point since growths don't have much effect until later, but I want to comment on it anyway...

We've been over this already. His growths are not good. His growth total is high, yes, but the allocation is horrible. He has below-average growths in the most important stats, like str and spd, and overkill growths in the least important ones.

Edited November 4, 2008 by Reikken

[sandmanccl]

Nolan is pretty beastly. I'm not denying that. But I don't care if Leo is on par with Nolan, especially because they work so well together. You can't really compare Nolan to anyone in the game, because he's incredibly important for all the maps you can use him save maybe a few (like the stupid swamp map, arrrgh), serves a role only one other guy on the DB does well (Aran being the only other tank), and ends up totally god-mode because of how awesome Reaver caps are. I'm okay with other units not being up to his caliber, especially if they are good in another way.

Ranged units are fantastic, even with slightly sub-par stats. That's the only compelling reason I've had to use Ilyana ever is because I do so love to weaken enemy units so my melee guys can kill them without taking damage, or even risking to take damage. I just find Leonardo better at it than Ilyana in more important maps.

edit:

And I don't get how you can say his growths are bad. 40% strength is plenty for an archer, especially one that maxes the main stats for archers as quickly as he does. (As I've said time and time again, Shinon's growth is THE EXACT SAME, with Shinon's ONLY advantage being that he joins at a super high level with crappy stats for someone that's already level 14, but with playability in the chapters you gain the most amount of experience in.) His HP is actually pretty good for a ranged guy, his luck is tremendous, and that only leaves speed. A single, solitary stat. One that gets within 2.1 points of capping at max level on average, without help of bonus experience levels (which by the way, he benefits from greatly due to his capping other stats so incredibly fast).

Edited November 4, 2008 by sandmanccl

[Reikken]

Spd is by far the game's most important stat. Being fail in that is a huge blow. Str is the next most important for physical attackers, and Leo's growth and base are below average.

Yes, Shinon's str growth is the same. So what? This is about Leo, not Shinon. That doesn't change the fact that Leo's str growth is below average.

But if you want to talk about Shinon, first, their bases differ tremendously. Shinon's bases and his speed and def are what make him good, not his str growth. Leo is subpar in all three of those areas.

His HP is actually pretty good for a ranged guy

His growth is nice, but his base is pretty bad.

[sandmanccl]

If we're talking bad bases, then why do you like Nolan so much? His bases are atrocious. Hell, why have we even mentioned Ilyana? Her bases are god-awful.

Speed is NOT the most important category, by a longshot. Enemies have a whole lot of HP this title so it's more important than in previous FE titles, but it's not the most important by any means. None of your units are slow enough without severe RNG screwage to let you get double-attacked by all but swordmaster enemy types (and even then, it's only to your really slow people like Leo, Micaiah, most the other sages, and untransformed laguz). Leo's +5 speed from his bow lets him double attack anything, on average, that you'll encounter assuming you got him to at least level 1 as a sniper before Part 1 ends. He's not a slow unit in the end, especially if you gain him some bonus experience levels towards the end of his Tier 2 time.

And Shinon is one of my least favorite guys. I recognize he's a good unit, but he's a good unit for a completely different playstyle than Archers have ever been known for. I'm the kind of guy that finds Wil better than Rebecca. I'd rather hit hard than hit a lot of times, especially with how powerful bows have become. I've always used them to weaken enemy units about to be killed by other party members, or used them to finish off enemies weakened by counter-attacks from my tanks. An archer with good defense is no good to me. (Oh, FYI, his bases kind of suck. Leo at equivalent level is only behind a whopping 4 speed and Leo's commonly considered atrociously slow. People can claim how defensively capable Shinon is all they want but he has to be because he's not dodging shit with his atrociously low luck.) I actually find Rolf to be a much better unit even from the start of their playtime because neither of them are going to kill something on their own without a crit so use the guy that takes off more damage with less uses of your weapons.

Look, just give him a shot one time. One freakin' time. If you can't salvage him as a playable unit, then my apologies for it, but I've used him before and because I WANTED to use him, I found ways to make him a super mega awesome member of my party.

[Reikken]

If we're talking bad bases, then why do you like Nolan so much? His bases are atrocious.

What? His bases are good. What are you talking about? 5 more str than Edward (10 more atk), 4 more def, 10 more hp

Speed is NOT the most important category, by a longshot.

What is, then, huh? What other stat has such a huge effect on both offense and defense? None. It is indeed the most important. A few points can give someone twice as much offense or half as much defense (getting doubled), and it has the most effect on avoid.

Leo's +5 speed from his bow lets him double attack anything, on average, that you'll encounter assuming you got him to at least level 1 as a sniper before Part 1 ends. He's not a slow unit in the end, especially if you gain him some bonus experience levels towards the end of his Tier 2 time.

I didn't say a single thing about how good he is later. I said his stat growths are not good, and he starts off bad. Yes, he has an awesome personal bow. And he also has a nice affinity.

I actually find Rolf to be a much better unit even from the start of their playtime because neither of them are going to kill something on their own without a crit

First of all, you're wrong. Shinon kills things with two normal hits plenty often enough with those pwnsome bows you can get and his good base str. Second of all, crits do happen, and with two shots at getting a crit each round, it happens quite a bit.

Edited November 4, 2008 by Reikken

[sandmanccl]

There is no single most important stat. =\ Why does there have to be a single most important stat? This isn't Fallout. This isn't D&D. You don't assign the stats you get for each unit, and therefore, there is no most important stat. What is important is figuring out how to get the most use out of each of your characters, and Leonardo works excellently in every map you can use him for.

Let's skip to 1-4, the first map where you choose who to bring in to battle. The map is designed for you to have a guy up front to take the hit, and then have the rest of your units sit back and pew pew from range. Leonardo will hit for as hard as any of your other units at range (Edward + Wind edge = fail damage in that map, Nolan's hand axe is slightly unnacurate and he'll probably be one of the two tanks anyway, Aran has trouble even hitting things with his Javelin and it doesn't inflict a whole lot of damage anyway) and will still double attack the unshifted ones. He should be getting plenty of experience in this map.

1-5, you should be able to easily attack one of the guys directly in front of you with Leonardo and then get him up on the little plateau area next round to attack the guys up there. (Make sure to bring another unit or two up top so that at least one of the two guys up there dies, and the other shouldn't be strong enough to kill Leo.) If you got him the longbow in the specialty shop, it helps in actually finishing off guys you attack from the other ledge, but if not, he should still gain a level simply shooting down at the guys trying to come up. He'll gain a good amount of XP on that map.

1-6-1, he's got a pretty simple and effective role. The Steel Bow you pick up whenever it was should one-shot the enemy pegasus knights, even on Hard Mode, unless you've been completely strength screwed. He'll still be hurting the non-armors a decent amount. He should get plenty of experience and find plenty of use.

1-6-2, I've always worked the map like this: Leonardo sits on the ballista for a few rounds while I send Tauroneo unequipped to the left as well as Aran, Micaiah and Ilyana. Arrange your guys in a formation like this:

.A.M..

T.I...

(I'm not very good at ASCII but I hope you get where I'm going with that. First letter of their name, each period represents a spot.)

Because Tauroneo is slightly ahead of Aran, enemy horse units can't park JUST in front of Tauroneo therefore leaving them simply Aran to attack, so they keep running in and out for 0 damage against Big T. On your turn, some will have parked directly in front of you. Micaiah nukes one with Thani, then Leonardo with his ballista and Ilyana with her magic hit the next one. Aran runs up to finish it off. Big T simply moves forward to reset your formation a few blocks up. All of your units except Tauroneo are gaining valuable experience, you push forward, no one even gets attacked. Once you're out of ballista ammo or have pushed far enough forward it doesn't have reach anymore, have Volug rescue him and then drop him off near the rest of your guys on the bridge. It might take a turn or two extra, but Volug isn't gaining any XP here so there's no reason to use him other than to rescue/push your units.

My point: He's going to be gaining experience and is a help to your team.

1-7, he can potentially be a sniper at this point if you've been using him as I've outlined and giving him up BEXP so he levels up on his next attack in previous stages. Even if he's not, run up up behind Jill or Nolan or whomever into the Armors that are on the stairs. Once you punch through, Leo will be your best bet for killing the mages without taking a whole lot of damage. Even when he doesn't cancel, his resistance is a lot higher than a lot of your other units who probably can't one-shot them just yet. Options from here: keep him up top to help take out the mages on the other side of the ledge, or just leave him be until enemy reinforcements show up. If you've got door keys, he can go open those for you in the meantime if you REALLY feel like you need to get use out of him. Personally, I usually have a lot of units sitting on their butts this map because of how cramped the fighting conditions are.

1-8, you're going to be using your best 3 guys that you plan on actually gaining XP to be viable front-runners in the DB + Laura. He may or may not be one of them. If he is, just have him back up whoever you have tanking enemy units in the reeds and he'll be doing you a service, especially because Ilyana will have trouble hitting guys hiding in the reeds, especially if her biorhythm is down.

1-9, it's just Micaiah and the BK.

1-10, run two or three guys up on the ledge (one should definitely be Jill for hit and run tactics, the other should probably be Nolan for his epic HP or potentially the Black Knight without anything equipped so he draws enemy attackers). Leo should go up that way, too. As long as you're keeping up with the furious pace of the enemy spawns in the stage, Leo should be able to get to ledges above them just as they arrive, allowing you to kill guys and protect your back at the same time. The best people to fight the enemy spawns down below you are Leo and Ilyana because they'll have the most uses of long ranged weapons for the least cost, so you should probably bring one of the two. Because Leo's been more instrumental for longer and will actually stay with a party that needs him, I say he's the better one to use.

----------------------

None of this requires he has epic stats, either. Unless you're SEVERELY hampered by unlucky stat rolls, he's going to be pretty good the whole time. If he's not a sniper by then, he should be pretty damn close to it, and even if he's just a level 1 sniper by the time part 3 rolls around, he should work with flying colors for the rest of the DB only chapters. He's a good unit for when you're forced to use him and has excellent potential (lots of room for BEXP level ups in his weak areas, arguably the best end-game class in Marksman, unique bow to make him epic fast if you manage to cap his speed).

[Florete]

Most important stat is dependant on playstyle more than anything. For me, it's speed, but for others it could differ.

[Killer Poleax]

Lol you guys are arguing about marksmen on the MEG topic Maybe you should have made a new topic for your little debate. And I agree with Fox that the stats that are important depend on how you play the game. But your debate is interesting so by all means please continue.

Edited November 5, 2008 by KSFF2150

[Reikken]

I don't know what you're trying to argue now, Sandman. If you're trying to say that Leo is useable and not made of fail, I never disagreed with that. Is he useful? Sure. Would he be even more useful if he had better stats? Yes.

As for there not being any most important stat... wha? All stats are not created equal. You don't need to be able to assign stat points for some stats to be more worthwhile than others. (And you actually can to some extent: statups.)

Ask yourself this: Would Leo be better off if his huge skl growth swapped places with his lower str or spd growths? Answer: Yes, very much so. Gaining more avoid and attacking twice is much better than a few points of hit and an extremely small amount of crit (double attacking actually even boosts hit and crit as well due to giving you two chances to hit and crit). And gaining 5 atk is much better than gaining 10 hit and 2-3 crit for many reasons, not the least of which being that it takes only +50% cost to add that much hit and crit to a forged weapon, while it takes +250% cost to add that much power, or that supports give +5 hit per full level and only +1 atk. Once he hits 3rd tier, then skl's usefulness goes up a bit due to having a skl-based mastery skill (but still not enough to be on par with str since Deadeye is skl/2 rather than full skl), but before that, str and spd >>>> skl.

Edited November 5, 2008 by Reikken

[sandmanccl]

I'm saying his stats AREN'T BAD. They get the job done and have the potential to become god-like on arguably the best class in the game. There's nothing fail about that.

And it doesn't matter if all stats are created equal, because you can't determine what's going to increase or not. It doesn't matter if Leo would be better off if you could swap some of his high skill growth into speed and strength because you can't do that. Focusing on stats instead of how to get the most use out of a unit doesn't compute with me. It ONLY holds water in arguments of a certain guy of a certain class competing against the exact same type of unit.

If you live and die by the philosophy that speed is the "best stat", you'll miss out on a lot of great units throughout the series, notably Generals. Even the ones with good speed growths are limited by low caps so they aren't ever "fast." In fact, most units that rely on speed tend to suck because they have absolutely failure defense and HP gains.

Also also also we've been comparing him to Ilyana this whole time. How is Leo bad because he's slow but she's good despite being even slower? Level 9 Leo (pretty easy to get to even on Hard Mode entering 1-4) has 11.75 speed (so rounding it up gives you 12) while level 14 Ilyana (assuming you gain her TWO levels in 1-3, which is unlikely unless you heavily favor her, because she doesn't gain nearly the experience your other guys will) has 13.6, so rounding that gives you 14.

Ooh wow, man. 2 freakin' points of difference with a level difference of 5. I can't believe how fast she is! She's not even doing a whole lot more damage per hit because she's using weak weapons (3 MT on Thunder, 5 on Elthunder as opposed to the 6 MT on Iron Bows and the 10 MT on Steel bows). You're looking at 10 strength on average for Leo at level 9 vs. the 13 magic on Ilyana average at level 14. Not a huge difference, especially because enemies lack capable defenses at that point in addition to lacking capable resistances.

The KEY DIFFERENCE here is that Ilyana, while playable in more maps than any other unit, is never a huge benefit to your team in any of them, while Leonardo's ranged expertise is greatly appreciated by Micaiah's team all throughout part 1, and all of their maps in Part 3.

His stats are just fine, and saying otherwise just goes to show you've been screwed with him a whole bunch so you don't want to give him a shot. He's probably the EASIEST marksman to max every stat with for end-game.

[Florete]

If you live and die by the philosophy that speed is the "best stat", you'll miss out on a lot of great units throughout the series, notably Generals. Even the ones with good speed growths are limited by low caps so they aren't ever "fast." In fact, most units that rely on speed tend to suck because they have absolutely failure defense and HP gains.

Also also also we've been comparing him to Ilyana this whole time. How is Leo bad because he's slow but she's good despite being even slower? Level 9 Leo (pretty easy to get to even on Hard Mode entering 1-4) has 11.75 speed (so rounding it up gives you 12) while level 14 Ilyana (assuming you gain her TWO levels in 1-3, which is unlikely unless you heavily favor her, because she doesn't gain nearly the experience your other guys will) has 13.6, so rounding that gives you 14.

Ooh wow, man. 2 freakin' points of difference with a level difference of 5. I can't believe how fast she is! She's not even doing a whole lot more damage per hit because she's using weak weapons (3 MT on Thunder, 5 on Elthunder as opposed to the 6 MT on Iron Bows and the 10 MT on Steel bows). You're looking at 10 strength on average for Leo at level 9 vs. the 13 magic on Ilyana average at level 14. Not a huge difference, especially because enemies lack capable defenses at that point in addition to lacking capable resistances.

The KEY DIFFERENCE here is that Ilyana, while playable in more maps than any other unit, is never a huge benefit to your team in any of them, while Leonardo's ranged expertise is greatly appreciated by Micaiah's team all throughout part 1, and all of their maps in Part 3.

His stats are just fine, and saying otherwise just goes to show you've been screwed with him a whole bunch so you don't want to give him a shot. He's probably the EASIEST marksman to max every stat with for end-game.

Units with high speed suck? That's gotta be the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

2 points is the difference between doubling those enemies with speed in that range and not doubling them. Ilyana also deals magic damage when a lot of enemies have low resistance.

More availability > less availability. Just the chapter she arrives in in Part 3 contains a good amount of dragons, her specialty. Leo's ranged "expertise" can easily be replaced by Micaiah, Laura, and anyone with ranged weapons, preferably Nolan with a Bowgun or Sothe with a forged Knife. Longbows are extremely innaccurate.

Easiest to max all stats? Taken a look at his strength, speed, and defense caps recently? The growths are average/below average while the caps are rather high considering the growth. Even with BEXP it can be tough to cap speed and defense, possibly strength. Rolf and Shinon are much better at this.

[sandmanccl]

I said that RELY on high speed. I didn't say units with high speed. I think Zihark is a terrible unit in FE10 because he has terrible avoid despite having high speed unless you get his supports up fast, something that's much easier to do with Edward as Edward can be B rank with Nolan by the time Zihark even joins. Relying on the RNG to save your ass is never a good thing. Same reason I hate Guy, Lyn and Florina in FE7.

And he's the easiest to cap all stats with. Shinon has just as much strength issues as Leo does, for the millionth time. His speed is a measly 4 away from capping on average, easily fixable. His defense is a little further behind, but still not by much. Shinon on the other hand has 8 points of luck on average away from the cap. Bonus experience levels can't ever conceivably help his luck out except for 3 or 4 levels at the very end there. Rolf's probably easiest to get all the stats most relevant to archers maxed, but not easiest to get EVERY STAT maxed. I'm talking even HP, Luck, Magic, Resistance.

Ilyana's "specialty" is easily filled by Soren using the same weaponry she has access to (he starts out with a B in Thunder). He's also doing more damage than she is, and doesn't have the same speed issues she does due to his high base speed and how easy it is for him to cap other stats to boost it up should the need arise. More availability doesn't mean they are better than someone you don't use as much in this game, because there's all of 9 maps in the game where you actually get to choose who you bring. Easier to get to a higher level doesn't equate to better especially if they are one of the worst units on the other squad and so they actually see less playtime assuming you're using your best guys at any given time. If we were talking any other FE game, then I'd concede playtime meant more but unless you're Tormod, you're going to reach third tier easily before part 4 begins assuming you used that unit with the intent of getting him prepped for end-game.

Two of the people you said can replace Leonardo as a ranged attacker also heal, so they aren't always going to be attacking while Leonardo is. Besides, I have yet to get Laura to promote outside of giving her a master crown before she even got to level 15. She can't attack before then.

Nolan with a bowgun is going to do pitiful damage because crossbows suck. Leo does just as well with them, besides. It doesn't take strength into account so the only thing Nolan has over Leo is that extra bit of speed assuming you didn't BEXP level Leonardo at all. Sothe with a forged knife is fine but hardly replaces Leonardo because 1) you're going to be using Sothe every playthrough regardless of your feelings about him and 2) Leo does more damage per hit because of the pitiful MT on knives. If you do manage to get him fast enough to double enemies (not that difficult as you have a few speedwings you can potentially drop on him if you REALLY need to, plus he's easy to fill out with BEXP levels), he'll be doing more damage. You can make him a forged weapon as easily as you can make one for anyone else.

[Killer Poleax]

If you do manage to get him fast enough to double enemies (not that difficult as you have a few speedwings you can potentially drop on him if you REALLY need to, plus he's easy to fill out with BEXP levels), he'll be doing more damage.

Aren't you the same guy who didn't like using more than one speedwing on a single character? I'd rather use my speedwings on characters who fit my playstyle. I've tried out Leo and he had trouble double attacking when he wasn't using his personal bow. He had to rely on it so much that I almost used it all up and had to stop myself from using it so I could get it blessed. BEXP can help any character so it really comes down to playstyle and personal preference. I'm not a fan of Leo but I can respect the fact that you are and I'm not going to knock you for using someone I don't like.

There are a lot of characters in this game for a reason. Everyone's going to have characters they like and hate. Most people just don't have the patience to train Leo regardless of how much potential he has. In this game, the "best" characters depend on how you play the game and everyone plays it differently. And isn't this the Meg topic? I guess there's not much to say about her that hasn't already been said.

Edited November 5, 2008 by KSFF2150

[sandmanccl]

I've never had a problem with his speed to the point I felt I needed to give him even a single speed wing, let alone two. =\ I said IF YOU NEED TO. Keep focusing on small insignificant details and miss the whole picture more, guys.

[Florete]

I said that RELY on high speed. I didn't say units with high speed. I think Zihark is a terrible unit in FE10 because he has terrible avoid despite having high speed unless you get his supports up fast, something that's much easier to do with Edward as Edward can be B rank with Nolan by the time Zihark even joins. Relying on the RNG to save your ass is never a good thing. Same reason I hate Guy, Lyn and Florina in FE7.

Zihark is possibly the best SM in the game. He has amazing avoid due to Earth affinity, which he'll have by the time he actually needs it. Edward can't possibly get that kind of hax avoid. I won't go into the FE7 stuff.

And he's the easiest to cap all stats with. Shinon has just as much strength issues as Leo does, for the millionth time. His speed is a measly 4 away from capping on average, easily fixable. His defense is a little further behind, but still not by much. Shinon on the other hand has 8 points of luck on average away from the cap. Bonus experience levels can't ever conceivably help his luck out except for 3 or 4 levels at the very end there. Rolf's probably easiest to get all the stats most relevant to archers maxed, but not easiest to get EVERY STAT maxed. I'm talking even HP, Luck, Magic, Resistance.

Shinon has a higher base, for the millionth time, and HIS speed caps on average. Luck issues, yes, but Speed > Luck. And if you want to talk averages, Shinon loses only in luck and resistance.

Nolan with a bowgun is going to do pitiful damage because crossbows suck. Leo does just as well with them, besides. It doesn't take strength into account so the only thing Nolan has over Leo is that extra bit of speed assuming you didn't BEXP level Leonardo at all. Sothe with a forged knife is fine but hardly replaces Leonardo because 1) you're going to be using Sothe every playthrough regardless of your feelings about him and 2) Leo does more damage per hit because of the pitiful MT on knives. If you do manage to get him fast enough to double enemies (not that difficult as you have a few speedwings you can potentially drop on him if you REALLY need to, plus he's easy to fill out with BEXP levels), he'll be doing more damage. You can make him a forged weapon as easily as you can make one for anyone else.

Bowgun + Beastfoe = rape. Nolan has better speed, defense, and avoid, and thus is better at this. Sothe doesn't actually need to be used, but so what? A forged knife is doing great on him, and he is more likely to be played.