Do Bows have any place in the Weapon Triangle

[Extrasolar]

46 minutes ago, Mariode said:

Hidden weapons on the GC and Wii were MUCH better. I found them actually useful as my thief wouldn't get screwed over by armor knights due to not being affected by the weapon traingle.
The fact that they exist in fates is not the problem, but how they exist (and in which combinations they appear). The developers randomly decided to give 1-2 range weapons stat debuffs which range up to -6. And the debuffs aren't even consistent. "Take some -6 Speed here, and -5 Def here, oh and some -4 Strenght on this one. Aaaaand don't Forget the Spy Shuriken which has 3 range and grants all of your stats -2 and def and res -5." On top of that, they are Lances. That means you either have to use inaccurate Axes to beat them or rely on your 2-range locked Bows. Usually Lances are wielded by fat armor knights with 0 Speed, slow low-level soldier, flying Units who die to everything or cavaliers with average stats. But no, Ninjas are fast.  They will double you. And you will rarely have hitrates above 80% when fighting them and combined with fates RNG and the fact that they can just counterattack from afar (or directly next to you if you have an archer) you better prepare yourself. Also, Shurikens give a +2 boost to speed... even better. So along all the debuffs, the large attack range, them being Lances and the class that wields them come the skills. Poison Strike and Grisly Wound: EVERYONE. HAS. THEM. Roughly every three or four chapters you'd have a (Master)Ninja fuckfest. A big chunk of Ninjas awaits you, all with Poison Strike and Grisly Wound! You know... People are complaining about "Fugas Funhouse", but that is WAY better than "Kazes Lunge-Party", "Kotaros Fuckfest of betrayal" (where you even have to escort a green unit though a shitload of Ninjas) and "Generic Ninjas Hallway of Death". Ninjas are simply not just Fates Version of the thief that shows up once every two chapter to loot the chests. I wouldn't be half as pissed if they game wouldn't spam them so relentlessly and if Status Immunity or Kagero's Shuriken Mastery were actually obtainable skills, but no. "But you can just put shurikenbrea--". Did I mention Ninjas have high skill? And that Shuriken have good hitrates as well? And even if they should ever miss, Grisly Wound+Poison Strike will still take away 40% of your HP, double that, and then look at that generic Master of Arms finishing your unit off. (Conquest) Chapter 8, 9, 10, 13, 14 , 15, 16, 18 and even Fugas Funhouse (Ch 20) and Hinkos Chapter (Ch 24) were great because you needed to plan. I enjoyed playing them and even geting destroyed by them!
Anways... My fingers hurt so yeah... I got quite off-topic here... and it's really biased but whatever... I feel better now.

Really? I found them to be worthless in the Tellius games, considering they did crap for damage past Part I Sothe (himself being obviously overleveled). The only time they came close to killing anything was with a Lethality proc, and Sothe didn't even have that! Bane was just awful.

The Hidden Weapons kind of needed the debuffs in my opinion, because by lategame, Kaze dealing 2 damage to an armor knight is going to mean jack all, and he'll have a horrible time getting experience and levelling when he can't kill anything. At the very least, he cuts that armor knight's stats down to make it easier for other units to take them on. And yes, ninja are fast, but they have to have something going for them; their strength and defenses are pitiful, as thieves have always had in the series. So doubling is what they rely on to do anything at all. Their evasion is necessary to keep them alive longer than two seconds against enemies that far outstrip them in strength.

I will agree that poison strike/grisly wound is annoying, but otherwise, shurikens and ninjas would be completely irrelevant with their pitiful damage. They needed something to be able to do comparable damage to other units. And I'm glad that they aren't thieves, as thieves are for the most part complete jokes, with pitiful stats, that exist only to steal good weapons or money.

Edited March 4, 2017 by Extrasolar

[Dragrath]

1 hour ago, Extrasolar said:

Really? I found them to be worthless in the Tellius games, considering they did crap for damage past Part I Sothe (himself being obviously overleveled). The only time they came close to killing anything was with a Lethality proc, and Sothe didn't even have that! Bane was just awful.

The Hidden Weapons kind of needed the debuffs in my opinion, because by lategame, Kaze dealing 2 damage to an armor knight is going to mean jack all, and he'll have a horrible time getting experience and levelling when he can't kill anything. At the very least, he cuts that armor knight's stats down to make it easier for other units to take them on. And yes, ninja are fast, but they have to have something going for them; their strength and defenses are pitiful, as thieves have always had in the series. So doubling is what they rely on to do anything at all. Their evasion is necessary to keep them alive longer than two seconds against enemies that far outstrip them in strength.

I will agree that poison strike/grisly wound is annoying, but otherwise, shurikens and ninjas would be completely irrelevant with their pitiful damage. They needed something to be able to do comparable damage to other units. And I'm glad that they aren't thieves, as thieves are for the most part complete jokes, with pitiful stats, that exist only to steal good weapons or money.

I would have to agree with a bit of it Hidden weapons as a concept could work the stat debuffs are quite interesting potentially but Fates did screw them up in a major way due to how they meshed with the games other mechanics.

The lack of any way to mitigate status affects is a huge compounding factor I would argue that armor should have protected against those debuffs with the exception of the magic and anti armor knives/Shurikens. But the real issues were the nerfs that other weapon types received with regard to ranged attacks as well as the weapon triangle assignment secondary. If a Ninja actually grows Strength they become quiet scary as opposed to dropping off. (I particularly Noticed this with regards to Laslow)

The same also impacted bows and was probably meant to "buff bows" but yeah I do think they took it to far

[Shadow Mir]

3 hours ago, Mariode said:

Hidden weapons on the GC and Wii were MUCH better. I found them actually useful as my thief wouldn't get screwed over by armor knights due to not being affected by the weapon traingle.
The fact that they exist in fates is not the problem, but how they exist (and in which combinations they appear). The developers randomly decided to give 1-2 range weapons stat debuffs which range up to -6. And the debuffs aren't even consistent. "Take some -6 Speed here, and -5 Def here, oh and some -4 Strenght on this one. Aaaaand don't Forget the Spy Shuriken which has 3 range and grants all of your stats -2 and def and res -5." On top of that, they are Lances. That means you either have to use inaccurate Axes to beat them or rely on your 2-range locked Bows. Usually Lances are wielded by fat armor knights with 0 Speed, slow low-level soldier, flying Units who die to everything or cavaliers with average stats. But no, Ninjas are fast.  They will double you. And you will rarely have hitrates above 80% when fighting them and combined with fates RNG and the fact that they can just counterattack from afar (or directly next to you if you have an archer) you better prepare yourself. Also, Shurikens give a +2 boost to speed... even better. So along all the debuffs, the large attack range, them being Lances and the class that wields them come the skills. Poison Strike and Grisly Wound: EVERYONE. HAS. THEM. Roughly every three or four chapters you'd have a (Master)Ninja fuckfest. A big chunk of Ninjas awaits you, all with Poison Strike and Grisly Wound! You know... People are complaining about "Fugas Funhouse", but that is WAY better than "Kazes Lunge-Party", "Kotaros Fuckfest of betrayal" (where you even have to escort a green unit though a shitload of Ninjas) and "Generic Ninjas Hallway of Death". Ninjas are simply not just Fates Version of the thief that shows up once every two chapter to loot the chests. I wouldn't be half as pissed if they game wouldn't spam them so relentlessly and if Status Immunity or Kagero's Shuriken Mastery were actually obtainable skills, but no. "But you can just put shurikenbrea--". Did I mention Ninjas have high skill? And that Shuriken have good hitrates as well? And even if they should ever miss, Grisly Wound+Poison Strike will still take away 40% of your HP, double that, and then look at that generic Master of Arms finishing your unit off. (Conquest) Chapter 8, 9, 10, 13, 14 , 15, 16, 18 and even Fugas Funhouse (Ch 20) and Hinkos Chapter (Ch 24) were great because you needed to plan. I enjoyed playing them and even geting destroyed by them!
Anways... My fingers hurt so yeah... I got quite off-topic here... and it's really biased but whatever... I feel better now.

I agree with Extrasolar - knives in Tellius were an unceremonious afterthought. A poor man's version of a weapon type that isn't that good? No thanks. Also, other than specific weapons, the most you'll see a stat get debuffed by is 4. BTW, I didn't find the ninja cave that bad (which I was expecting to because of all the horror stories I read), but chapter 20 was just annoying, unfun, and shouldn't exist.

[Jotari]

12 hours ago, Extrasolar said:

Well I can't speak on averages, because I'm not sure exactly what each unit's average is, but I know that Haar and Shinon were more than enough to carry the chapters that they were available in to the point of being untouchable (alongside other strong units like Ike and Gatrie). Even at their "average," they are very strong, to the point of trivializing a lot of the game, unless I'm just getting extremely RNG blessed with all of my units? Somehow, I don't think that's the case.

Deadeye actually activates pretty much every turn for me once my Shinons are third tier,regardless of the formula, so take that for what it's worth.

And yes, while Evade was nerfed in Fates, it's still good enough that you can count on it for most of your high-evade units (Ryoma, Corrin, Subaki, etc.)

Evade was nerfed in Fates? Seems like it was given a massive buff to me. In no other game have I even considered throwing a unit into a mass of bodies and counted on them not being hit yet I do it the whole time with my sword masters and nine-tails in Fates and it very rarely actually proves to be a bad idea. I've seen hit rates as low as the the mid teens in Fates which is basically unheard of in the other games.

11 hours ago, Extrasolar said:

No joke. I had Ryoma get crit on the Revelation path by Sumeragi, get taken down to roughly 4 or so HP, then activate Astra, crit, and still win the fight. Too strong. Lol.

It reminds me of Stefan with the Vague Katti...I forgot to de-equip it, he Astra'd, and there went 10 uses of the blade just like that. All of the pain.

I disagree. I think Hidden Weapons are an interesting mechanic; they were near-useless in Path of Radiance and Radiant Dawn, unless you were using RD Volke and activating Lethality every five seconds, and I think Fates did a good job making them relevant. I think ninja was an interesting evolution of thief, personally, though I'll admit enemy ninjas could be pains with their poison strike and reposition. You had to get more tactical to take them out, despite their low defenses and attack, and it made the thief-analogues actually dangerous for once, whereas earlier in the series they've been little more than jokes for the most part.

I agree on the magic separation. I think Tellius did it right, with the anima triangle having a mini triangle within it as well. Made more sense.

 

What enemy thieves in the early series were considered jokes? Hell what thieves even actively attacked you in the early games. A few bosses here and there that were threatening due to weapons. Otherwise thieves squarely had a roll of being a natural turn limit to force the place to get to a chest of village. Not a joke roll in the slightest. That's a noncombat but important part of gameplay.

Edited March 5, 2017 by Jotari

[Extrasolar]

32 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Evade was nerfed in Fates? Seems like it was given a massive buff to me. In no other game have I even considered throwing a unit into a mass of bodies and counted on them not being hit yet I do it the whole time with my sword masters and nine-tails in Fates and it very rarely actually proves to be a bad idea.

Well...so to speak. Evade in Fates is as a whole a lot less reliable than in Awakening and previous games as a whole. In Fates, units tend to get hit by 40 - 60 percent hit changes far more on average than they did in previous games. Hana, a swordmaster with high avoid, tends to get screwed over by 40% hit chances very regularly, to the point that it's unusual when she actually does dodge a 40% chance to hit. She's not the only one, but she's most extreme example, as if Hana had been in previous games, she would likely be untouchable.

Have you played Radiant Dawn, by any chance? There, you could regularly count on your units dodging a roughly 65ish chance to hit. Compare Hana's tendency to fail at avoid to Mia or Shinon, who dodged pretty much every attack thrown at them. Even Haar, a wyvern knight, a class traditionally dedicated to straight-up facetanking avoided the majority of attacks that were thrown his way with his high avoid.

As a whole, that's why physical defense is far more important in Fates than it was in Awakening, as well as far more important than it was in Radiant Dawn and even Path of Radiance.

Now, Evade was buffed from being nerfed into the ground from Shadow Dragon to Awakening, where it was virtually nonexistent, in a move I can only see as a response to the godliness of avoid in Radiant Dawn.

Edited March 5, 2017 by Extrasolar

[Jotari]

22 minutes ago, Extrasolar said:

Well...so to speak. Evade in Fates is as a whole a lot less reliable than in Awakening and previous games as a whole. In Fates, units tend to get hit by 40 - 60 percent hit changes far more on average than they did in previous games. Hana, a swordmaster with high avoid, tends to get screwed over by 40% hit chances very regularly, to the point that it's unusual when she actually does dodge a 40% chance to hit. She's not the only one, but she's most extreme example, as if Hana had been in previous games, she would likely be untouchable.

Have you played Radiant Dawn, by any chance? There, you could regularly count on your units dodging a roughly 65ish chance to hit. Compare Hana's tendency to fail at avoid to Mia or Shinon, who dodged pretty much every attack thrown at them. Even Haar, a wyvern knight, a class traditionally dedicated to straight-up facetanking avoided the majority of attacks that were thrown his way with his high avoid.

As a whole, that's why physical defense is far more important in Fates than it was in Awakening, as well as far more important than it was in Radiant Dawn and even Path of Radiance.

Now, Evade was buffed from being nerfed into the ground from Shadow Dragon to Awakening, where it was virtually nonexisent, in a move I can only see as a response to the godliness of avoid in Radiant Dawn.

I have played Radiant Dawn just not in the past two years or so but I don’t remember it at all being as much of a dodgefest as you describe. True Shinon (and Mia and Elincia) did doge a lot but I found killing things so they can’t attack to be much more salient than relying on avoid to save me. Perhaps because my recent play through was on hard mode which you say you haven’t played. Yet in Fates there are several units I can quite literally have attack any enemy without even checking the combat forecast with high confidence that they will survive because the enemy’s stats are meaningless compared to my unit’s avoid. Additionally while Fates might have a different formula than other games, the evade you can easily get for most units is way higher than any other games in the series (at least in my experience). You can literally get over 100 in avoid with very little minmaxing. A 40% displayed hit (from your enemy) might screw you over more in these games then it did in earlier games but the inverse is also true, an 80% displayed hit (form your enemy) is actually way more useful than before and practically everyone will have it. Dodge tanking is basically the mantra of half the classes in the game by design. It’s actually one of my major issues with Fates.

Edited March 5, 2017 by Jotari

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

I have played Radiant Dawn just not in the past two years or so but I don’t remember it at all being as much of a dodgefest as you describe. True Shinon (and Mia and Elincia) did doge a lot but I found killing things so they can’t attack to be much more salient than relying on avoid to save me. Perhaps because my recent play through was on hard mode which you say you haven’t played. Yet in Fates there are several units I can quite literally have attack any enemy without even checking the combat forecast with high confidence that they will survive because the enemy’s stats are meaningless compared to my unit’s avoid. Additionally while Fates might have a different formula than other games, the evade you can easily get for most units is way higher than any other games in the series (at least in my experience). You can literally get over 100 in avoid with very little minmaxing. A 40% displayed hit (from your enemy) might screw you over more in these games then it did in earlier games but the inverse is also true, an 80% displayed hit (form your enemy) is actually way more useful than before and practically everyone will have it. Dodge tanking is basically the mantra of half the classes in the game by design. It’s actually one of my major issues with Fates.

I don't see how evade was buffed in Fates - personally, I say the GBA games were the best for dodgetanking. Fates... Is much closer to being one of the most dodgetanking unfriendly games ever (among other stuff, true hit is gone, meaning you can't laugh off those really low hit rates as certain misses any more).

Edited March 5, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Jotari]

30 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

I don't see how evade was buffed in Fates - personally, I say the GBA games were the best for dodgetanking. Fates... Is much closer to being one of the most dodgetanking unfriendly games ever (among other stuff, true hit is gone, meaning you can't laugh off those really low hit rates as certain misses any more).

My perception could be down to how easy it is to dodge tank. I freely admit that dodge tanking is how I play Binding Blade Hard Mode but that’s more down to utilising the terrain and weapon triangle in my favour to make use of the game’s naturally low hit rates. Where in Fates the game just gives you units that will just have great avoid regardless and can then be paired up for even better stats and the ability to outright negate every third or fourth attack. I can just throw Ryoma and almost any map (including the final ones) and have him avoid and kill pretty much everything. Even if someone manages to kill him I can just reset and pull off the exact same strategy with a very high change of success. I can’t do that for any pre Awakening game in the series, and in Awakening that’s due to grinding while in Fates Ryoma can do it after just giving him a few levels.

[Shadow Mir]

7 hours ago, Jotari said:

My perception could be down to how easy it is to dodge tank. I freely admit that dodge tanking is how I play Binding Blade Hard Mode but that’s more down to utilising the terrain and weapon triangle in my favour to make use of the game’s naturally low hit rates. Where in Fates the game just gives you units that will just have great avoid regardless and can then be paired up for even better stats and the ability to outright negate every third or fourth attack. I can just throw Ryoma and almost any map (including the final ones) and have him avoid and kill pretty much everything. Even if someone manages to kill him I can just reset and pull off the exact same strategy with a very high change of success. I can’t do that for any pre Awakening game in the series, and in Awakening that’s due to grinding while in Fates Ryoma can do it after just giving him a few levels.

How come you can't rely on dodgetanking in the other GBA games, which had plentiful terrain and weak enemies, but find it easy to rely on in Fates, which has neither? Because I found it the other way around - low HP and the unreliability of evade meant most Hoshidans had to be handled with kid gloves, lest they break, by which I mean "crumple into a lifeless heap", whereas I could largely get away with relying on dodgetanking in most other games. It doesn't help that enemies can use attack stance for extra hit, nor does it that pair up was nerfed. As for Ryoma, I'll just say Swordmasters have seen better days and leave it at that.

Edited March 5, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Extrasolar]

8 hours ago, Jotari said:

Where in Fates the game just gives you units that will just have great avoid regardless and can then be paired up for even better stats and the ability to outright negate every third or fourth attack. I can just throw Ryoma and almost any map (including the final ones) and have him avoid and kill pretty much everything. Even if someone manages to kill him I can just reset and pull off the exact same strategy with a very high change of success. I can’t do that for any pre Awakening game in the series, and in Awakening that’s due to grinding while in Fates Ryoma can do it after just giving him a few levels.

I wouldn't say that. The vast majority of Conquest units, at least, have terrible, terrible avoid, because most of them are meant to be straight-up facetanks like Effie, Benny, Keaton, Xander, Leo and the like. Even in Birthright, I've found that units tend to get screwed over by attacks that a unit in another game would have easily dodged...especially Hana. I don't understand why she fails at dodging so much, despite being the class that supposedly lives and breathes dodgetanking (other than thieves/assasins), and even Hinata dodges more reliably than her, and Hinata is a tank!

Even Kaze, when thieves in other games dodged pretty much every attack thrown at them past a certain level, tends to get hit and killed by relatively low percentage attacks, even when paired up and whatnot.

I'm reminded of lategame Sothe in Radiant Dawn; he's pretty much as fragile as Kaze by mid/lategame, and dealing just as little damage as well, but I have no worries leaving him to be attacked, as I knew he'll easily dodge 90%+ of attacks that are thrown his way. With Kaze, I'm terrified of the moment he'll get hit by a 40% attack and die, which is not an unusual occurrence in the least.

But yeah, Ryoma is definitely the best at consistently dodging. But even he's gotten hit by 30% chances to hit that have killed him.

 

Edited March 5, 2017 by Extrasolar

[Dragrath]

From sheer statistics Fates has irrefutably nerfed evasion as with a 1 RNG the low hit chances are actually representative rather than weighted to be far lower than what the game displayed That said I think the conversation has veered away from Bows now XD

[Jotari]

9 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

How come you can't rely on dodgetanking in the other GBA games, which had plentiful terrain and weak enemies, but find it easy to rely on in Fates, which has neither? Because I found it the other way around - low HP and the unreliability of evade meant most Hoshidans had to be handled with kid gloves, lest they break, by which I mean "crumple into a lifeless heap", whereas I could largely get away with relying on dodgetanking in most other games. It doesn't help that enemies can use attack stance for extra hit, nor does it that pair up was nerfed. As for Ryoma, I'll just say Swordmasters have seen better days and leave it at that.

That's sort of exactly the point I was making with my last comment. In the other games you actually have to use tactics to dodge tank but in Fates you just get units that can do it naturally anywhere at any time with no investment save a good pair up.

9 hours ago, Extrasolar said:

I wouldn't say that. The vast majority of Conquest units, at least, have terrible, terrible avoid, because most of them are meant to be straight-up facetanks like Effie, Benny, Keaton, Xander, Leo and the like. Even in Birthright, I've found that units tend to get screwed over by attacks that a unit in another game would have easily dodged...especially Hana. I don't understand why she fails at dodging so much, despite being the class that supposedly lives and breathes dodgetanking (other than thieves/assasins), and even Hinata dodges more reliably than her, and Hinata is a tank!

Even Kaze, when thieves in other games dodged pretty much every attack thrown at them past a certain level, tends to get hit and killed by relatively low percentage attacks, even when paired up and whatnot.

I'm reminded of lategame Sothe in Radiant Dawn; he's pretty much as fragile as Kaze by mid/lategame, and dealing just as little damage as well, but I have no worries leaving him to be attacked, as I knew he'll easily dodge 90%+ of attacks that are thrown his way. With Kaze, I'm terrified of the moment he'll get hit by a 40% attack and die, which is not an unusual occurrence in the least.

But yeah, Ryoma is definitely the best at consistently dodging. But even he's gotten hit by 30% chances to hit that have killed him.

 

Yeah, I suppose when I'm thinking of it I'm thinking of the more extreme cases such as Ryoma, Kaden and Selkie (ll of which are also very effective at killing enemies too). As well as the many enemy ninja that you tend to face with 80% hit chances (seriously, how much avoid does Kotaro have in Conquest? I remember facing 30% hit against him with practically my entire army and him having pretty dangerous stats to counter with. I also remember having absolutely shit hit against Kana in the Great Wall Heirs of Fate). The defend bar also plays a role where it might not necessarily be dodging but it does give your units a way to survive a lot more attacks overall (and dodge units will be filling it up even faster due to reliable doubling).

 

But yeah, this entire dodge related talk has strayed pretty far from the idea of bows. We should probably get back to that.

Edited March 6, 2017 by Jotari

[Shadow Mir]

20 hours ago, Jotari said:

That's sort of exactly the point I was making with my last comment. In the other games you actually have to use tactics to dodge tank but in Fates you just get units that can do it naturally anywhere at any time with no investment save a good pair up.

Yeah, I suppose when I'm thinking of it I'm thinking of the more extreme cases such as Ryoma, Kaden and Selkie (ll of which are also very effective at killing enemies too). As well as the many enemy ninja that you tend to face with 80% hit chances (seriously, how much avoid does Kotaro have in Conquest? I remember facing 30% hit against him with practically my entire army and him having pretty dangerous stats to counter with. I also remember having absolutely shit hit against Kana in the Great Wall Heirs of Fate). The defend bar also plays a role where it might not necessarily be dodging but it does give your units a way to survive a lot more attacks overall (and dodge units will be filling it up even faster due to reliable doubling).

 

But yeah, this entire dodge related talk has strayed pretty far from the idea of bows. We should probably get back to that.

Whether tactics were needed or not has no relevance on how good dodgetanking is, and for that matter, whether the game gives you units that are good at dodgetanking naturally is also irrelevant. Only how it works out in actual practice matters, and it just doesn't measure up in Fates. At all. FFS, I could get away with just throwing a Valkyrie, Bishop, or Sage in the middle of a regiment of enemies in the GBA games; I can't expect to try that in Fates and get away with it.

Counting the evasion boost from the throne he's on, Kotaro has 80 avoid.

On February 28, 2017 at 1:42 PM, Azz said:

I personally like Heroes WT and I do like how they are neutral.

While I did likes Fates' WT, I thought it was weird bows were weak to magic, especially considering that was bows schtick, being able to take down mages from range while other units can't.

Bows weren't that great at being mage killers before the nerf to hand axes and javelins, honestly - just how many archers actually had good resistance?? I'm drawing a blank. And that's ignoring that bows are helpless once the mage gets in close.

[Vaximillian]

7 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Just how many archers actually had good resistance?? I'm drawing a blank.

Ronan!

[Dragrath]

On 3/6/2017 at 5:55 PM, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Bows weren't that great at being mage killers before the nerf to hand axes and javelins, honestly - just how many archers actually had good resistance?? I'm drawing a blank. And that's ignoring that bows are helpless once the mage gets in close.

AH technically when I brought that up was referring more towards the enemy archers taking out MY Mages if any unit was going to be missed regarding protecting my mages it was normally an Archer... Those longbows -_-

Edited March 8, 2017 by Dragrath
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