Elieson Talks Teams & Units | Today, The Starting Three, Alfonse Day, Not a Fun Day

[Elieson]

4 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

The weapon triangle bonus and penalty is rounded down, not the end effective Atk, so that weapon triangle advantage and disadvantage are symmetric with each other.

With 48 base attack, you'd have a weapon triangle modifier of 9, rounded down from 9.6, resulting in 57 damage against red and 39 damage against green, not 38 damage against green.

To double-check, I dropped a Marth with 44 Atk (not fully leveled) into the training tower against a low-level lance unit with 3 Def. The resulting damage was 33, or 44 - 8 - 3, meaning the 44 x 0.2 = 8.8 weapon triangle modifier was rounded down to 8.

Oh so the individual elements are handled with their own =RoundDown()s rather than the finished product?

I'll need to double-check this with Selena then to see where Triangle Adept and Effectiveness kick in, in terms of if the RoundDown is applied to all attack modifiers as a collective, or individually...She's got all the elements there iirc

[Vaximillian]

Individual elements are rounded down separately indeed.

[Elieson]

33 minutes ago, Vaximillian said:

Individual elements are rounded down separately indeed.

How bothersome! I need to adjust my formulae accordingly! Fortunately, most numbers that I've done so far will change by 1 or 0, but I'll need to confirm what's what.

Thanks for the update pal~

[Elieson]

Day 2 of 3 for the Starter Trio brings me to rate my man, competitor and future loser in the upcoming Voting Gauntlet, Alfonse.

Alfonse: Another Acceptable Attempt

Like Sharena before him, Alfonse begins the game as your primary blue haired Sword Lord, typical of pretty much every Fire Emblem game to date. He begins as a 2* unit, with alright stats for the time, but speed that leaves a bit to be desired when his raw offense just isn't cutting it for the main Campaign via single strikes like he's designed to do. Reds/Swords quickly get summoned and overshadow the guy, and with good reason; Alfonse takes a lot of investment to offer his true yield. His PRF sword, Folkvangr, doesn't offer any effective damage and the fellow himself struggles to sustain his life without a good team behind him...as many Sword lords before him.

So what if you decided that you don't want to rely on orbs, and you want to take his blonde highlights to the max? Well, a hefty investment of 22,200 Hero Feathers is the cost, not to mention the Badges, so it's a steep investment at that. He starts with Sol-lite though, which should help him out, and he packs some muscle under that emotionally distraught exterior, so maybe he's worth it after all?

Alfonse its the board at 2*, but I'll post stats for 5* Level 40 only, in case you're tempted to make the jump but currently lack the drive or the 20,000 Hero Feathers and 20 Great Scarlet Badges to do so. Like Sharena, Alfonse (along with all Free units and Grand Hero Battle units) cannot have stat variations, so what you see is what you get:

 

5* Stats:

HP     43
ATK   51
DEF   32
SPD   25
RES   22
RATING 173

Maximum Skills:

☆☆

1. Steel Sword (8 Mt, 1 Rng)
2. Daylight (Heal 30% of Damage Dealt [4 point Cooldown])
3. Death Blow 2 (Atk+4 on Player Phase)

☆☆☆

1. Silver Sword (11 Mt, 1 Rng)
2. Daylight (Heal 30% of Damage Dealt [4 point Cooldown])
3. Death Blow 2 (Atk+4 on Player Phase)
4. Spur Atk 1 (Atk+2 to adjacent allies during combat)

☆☆☆☆

1. Silver Sword (11 Mt, 1 Rng)
2. Sol (Heal 50% of Damage Dealt [4 point Cooldown])
3. Death Blow 3 (Atk+6 on Player Phase)
4. Spur Atk 2 (Atk+3 to adjacent allies during combat)

☆☆☆☆☆

1. Folkvangr (16 Mt, Atk+5 on Player Phase if HP is less than/equal to 50%, 1 Rng)
2. Sol (Heal 50% of Damage Dealt [4 point Cooldown])
3. Death Blow 3 (Atk+6 on Player Phase)
4. Spur Atk 3 (Atk+4 to adjacent allies during combat)

On the Offense

Alfonse is meant to be a powerhouse. He has a strong 5* weapon, but even at 4*, he has Deathblow to offset his mere middling offense. At 5*, his offense is very high, but even higher with situational usage...he needs to be hurt to be at his peak, something that Sol complicates. Regardless, Death Blow 3 is active at both 4* and 5*, giving him an effective 17 Atk at 4* and 22 at 5* before Folkvangr's help, which is meaty when stacked on a base 51 Atk, yielding 63 Attack at max before team support and triangle involvement.

Again, I'll analyze 4* and 5* Alfonse's contributions towards the Meta, because the difference between the two is huge, and to see the difference in push might help you consider promoting the boy to 5* or demoting him to S-tier Benchwarmer.

☆☆☆☆

4* Alfonse struggles, and it shows. I'm not gonna cover this information, but assume that without Folkvangr's +5 Atk and +5 situational attack and 22 speed, that he's gonna get eaten up in the Arena. Spur Atk 2 doesn't let him support all that well, combined with his meh stats. It's not worth the analysis.

☆☆☆☆☆

• Effective Atk (v Green) [61.2 = 61 because RoundDown]
  • 67 w/ Folkvangr Boost
  • 68 w/ Deathblow Boost
  • 74 w/ Deathblow & Folkvangr Boosts
• Neutral Atk (v Red) [51]
  • 56 w/ Folkvangr Boost
  • 57 w/ Deathblow Boost
  • 62 w/ Deathblow & Folkvangr Boosts
• Ineffective Atk (v Blue/Colorless) [40.8 = 40 because RoundDown]
  • 45 w/ Folkvangr Boost
  • 46 w/ Deathblow Boost
  • 50 w/ Deathblow & Folkvangr Boosts

Alfonse's job as a 5* is to hit once and hard, and work to regain his health from counterattacks by hitting back so hard that he absorbs the quintessence of his enemies, letting him rinse wash and repeat the cycle. His durability struggles in allowing him to overcome foes with merely average speed (enemies with 30 Spd double him on counter), so his goal is to either get buffs from himself and his team to let him either sustain his life or maximize his raw power, before he dies.

It's impossible to talk about Alfonse's offense without talking about his defense, since one of his two self-buffs requires that he takes damage, and his proc heals his damage. Unfortunately, his own build is counterintuitive towards this purpose. Not only does Sol serve to bring him out of his own boost range, but Folkvangr's +5 Attack boost only triggers at the start of a turn, meaning that if he's hit into Folk-range, his counterattack won't receive the buff until his next turn. This isn't even a difficult thing to achieve, meaning that he's even less useful with a dancer to support him unless he's already in range and going One-Punch Man on his opponents with the buff. To put it into a situation:

1. Turn 2 starts and Alfonse is at full health [4] within range of his opponent. He charges forward to attack, and takes return damage, leaving his opponent with 6 health and himself with 22 and a Sol counter of [2] or [1] if he is doubled back.
   1. Olivia/Azura dance for him. He can finish off his opponent, but does not have Folk boost until next turn. He has Sol range in effect of [1] or [0] if he was doubled earlier
   2. Alfonse is assaulted on Enemy Phase and dies
      1. Alternatively, Alfonse isn't assaulted, and now has +5 Atk. He attacks again, and needs to either one-shot his foe or just not be harmed by them in a significant way, to live. Sol is at [0], meaning the next strike procs it. This requires a dancer. 
      2. Otherwise, his Sol just proc'd here, and he absorbed HP from a foe that he attempted to OHKO, or fell short on OHKO'ing and hurt him back. 
         1. If he Sol'd someone that had little HP, he gained little HP back with Sol, making Sol not too helpful. It keeps him in Folk-range, but with middling durability, puts Alfonse at risk against common fast units that can tank one red hit. I'll go over these later

You can see what I mean with the scenario. He'll hit hard, probably get doubled back, be close to single digits (since let's face it; 50 attack hits him for 18, or 18*2, and isn't that uncommon. Lucina runs that by default). He needs to live an entire extra turn before working with Folk's bonus, and it's either useless because he'll self-heal out of it via Sol and battle timing, or he'll kill a weakened foe due to map layout and movement limitations, minimizing his self heal and leaving him open for a second round followup that could do him in. Alfonse is risky, primarily because of Sol rather than say, Luna, which would've been absolutely perfect for him, to maximize his Death Blow & Folk-boosted offense and give him incredible chances at swift OHKOs against even greens...but that's theory for another day.

1 range limitations mean that he can smack archers/mages/dagger users with safety (sans Takumi, of course). With retaliation ignored, we can see benefits to his battle style, but his combat numbers are by no means extraordinary on enemy phase. Let's still see what he does on Player Phase with innate Deathblow giving him 57 Attack on all Player Phases:

Versus Red: 

As a precursor, I'll mention units that get OHKO'd or ORKO'd without +HP or +Def natures as ND, or Normal Durability.

   To be honest, Alfonse does alright here. 57 Atk isn't anything to really complain about, and while most Sword Lords double him back, he hits many quite hard, so with a safety speed boost, he can hit safely. 25 Speed does let him double Sophia and a few -Spd opponents (-Spd Leo/Henry/A!Tiki), basically designating his offense to single strikes.

•    57 Atk OHKOs Hana that isn't +HP/+Def (and who would run those anyway?), all variants of Lilina  and Sanaki, and ORKOs the four people that he doubles (Sophia, -Spd Leo, -Spd Henry, -Spd A!Tiki).
  •    He heavily dents pretty much every other red unit. To elaborate, if he doesn't OHKO your red unit, he'll 2HKO your red unit most likely. Draug, Hinata, Eldigan and +Def/HP variants of A!Tiki, Chrom, Henry and Stahl. 
•    62 Atk (aka, Folk-boosted) KOs in addition to the above, ND Caeda and ND Eliwood. Additionally, lots of units with -HP or -Def natures will succumb to Alfonse's muscle, which include ND Olivia, ND Raigh and ND Tharja. That's it, and while it's neat, it's nothing to shake a stick at.
  •    Draug and +Def Eldigan survive two full powered hits from this guy.

   The biggest issue, is that he'll not always have these powerups. These numbers are big, but when he's doubled back by more than half of the swordies for decent damage, he'll have a hard time living long enough to capitalize on his power. Fortunately, nobody can kill Alfonse on a counter without Atk buffs of their own...except +Atk Hana. Getting our boy into Folk range for a second strike is bound to happen, so this means that hilariously, you can shove one of the slowest sword users up against combat against the Top Tiers and he'll kill them and survive...with a Dancer to support him. He'll do alright dealing Counter damage as bait and retaliating with his own DB+Folkboosted attacks, so Alfonse, like many other units, benefits from being attacked head on and returning the favor with the goal of winning a trade. It's kinda cool how he actually goes even with SwordLords in this scenario at max level, just to barely survive and I mean barely. Lucina lets him live with 1 HP, and she's the next hardest hitter after Hana.

   Arguably, after crunching the numbers and learning that not a single unit can flat out 2HKO him without buffs, it's entirely feasible to let standard Alfonse tank a hit/2, return a chip hit himself and deal the finishing blow. To put this into perspective:

• Hit and not damaged into Folk range
  • Doesn't kill Draug on the next strike, dealing 12 + 18 to Draug in total
  • Doesn't kill Eldigan, dealing 14 + 20 to Eldigan in total
  • Same goes for Hinata (12 + 18), Stahl (18 + 24) and A!Tiki (16 + 22)
• Hit into Folk range
  • This will let you return the hit and kill any other red except for Draug/Eldigan/Hinata

   Bear in mind that the above units don't hit Alfonse into Folk range though, so I'm only accounting for Deathblow in their case. Alfonse pretty much destroys anybody I didn't mention on the return strike.

   In short, 5* Alfonse is sort of a strange red counter, in that he can tank just enough damage to explode back, but relies on a team to clean up and keep him out of trouble, giving him the safety of a super strong followup/finishing blow to whatever chip you're running (archers/dagger users). Furthermore, I'd strongly suggest running Alfonse with dagger users, since the -Def debuff applied makes Alfonse's one-hit-wonder style that much more potent, as their chip combined with his hit should let him finish off any red unit other than Draug/Hinata (both of which, have their own glaring weaknesses).

Versus Green: 

   Here's some fun times for Alfonse. Alfonse doubles no greens naturally, and gets doubled back by some, including most of the mages. Minerva the speed queen, Barst/Raven and Anna of course, but he checks some of the more popular Greens all by himself

•    With Death Blow and no Folk
  • OHKOs all variants of Camilla, Celica, Julia, Nino
  • OHKOs neutral Anna, Minerva, Raven
  • OHKOs -Def/-HP Fae, F!Robin
• With Death Blow and Folk
  • OHKOs in addition to above, Anna and all variants of Minerva, Raven, F!Robin, Fae
  • OHKOs neutral Narcian
  • OHKOs -Def/-HP Cherche, Gunter, Hawkeye, Merric

   He also 2HKOs every Hector except -Def Hector with DeathBlow only, but always 2HKOs with a Death Blow and a DB & Folk hit

   Now, his Defense isn't super stellar, but he manages to walk away from Minerva by being 5HKO'd and Cherche being 4HKO's, meanwhile his surprisingly high res and WTA let him just barely avoid getting 3HKO'd by neutral/+Spd Ninos (survives being 3H'd by 1 HP) and 4HKO'd by all but +Atk Merrics (both whom double him, so hit him pretty hard because of their repeat strikes. Ninos are surrounded by buffs though, so the best you can probably hope for is that Nino hasn't been buffed for a cumulative 8 stats excluding Attack.

Versus Blue: 

   Just don't. Incredibly, Alfonse boasts enough Defense and Res to tank getting OHKO'd by anybody and dodges getting ORKO'd by everyone except F!Corrin, Cordelia and his 5* sister, meaning he can jump into combat and deal a hit, or take a hit and strike back. This is still risky, and we should look at why:

• Every blue unit hits him back for 19 damage or more
  • Gwendolyn hits back for 17
• Alfonse gets doubled by Sharenas, Cordelias and Azuras, who kill him, as well as Sully (an Arena bonus unit at the time of this post) who also kills him
• Folkvangr requires being hit for 22 damage in order to drop him into range for it, which is not something achieved by units like Gwendolyn, Donnel, Abel and Oboro. Most units that hit him for 22 or more outright kill him, except Effie and Jagen, who don't double him. 
• Speaking of Effie, 34 damage in one hit means Sol won't be triggering anytime soon and Alfonse is down a ton of health

   All of that refers to key counter damage, but what does he do?

• With Death Blow and no Folk
  • OHKOs nobody ever
• With Death Blow and Folk
  • OHKOs neutral Linde

That's to be expected, but ouch nonetheless! What about 2HKOs...like with Dancer support or something?

• With Death Blow and no Folk
  • 2HKOs all variants of Azura, Cordelia, Linde, Olwen, Peri
  • 2HKOs neutral Reinhardt, Shanna
  • 2HKOs -Def/-HP Odin, Hinoka, Jagen, Est
• With Death Blow and Folk
  • OHKOs Linde
    • 2HKOs in addition to above, all variants of Shanna
    • 2HKOs neutral Catria, Est, Hinoka, Jagen, Robin!M
    • 2HKOs -Def/-HP of nobody

Versus Colorless: 

   Alfonse's massive attack stat does a number on many of the less bulky units in this area, but to truly understand what he's capable of, we need to look at again, both Folk and No-Folk to see what he does. Fortunately, the math is relatively easy to do, since Alfonse doubles none of the Colorless while they almost all double him back:

• With Death Blow and no Folk
  • OHKOs all variants of Elise, Felicia
  • OHKOs neutral Clarine, Kagero
  • OHKOs -Def/-HP Klein, Sakura
• With Death Blow and Folk
  • OHKOs in addition to above, Anna and all variants of Minerva, Raven, F!Robin, Fae
  • OHKOs neutral Gaius, Jakob, Jeorge, Lachesis
  • OHKOs -Def/-HP Takumi, Wrys

   If he doesn't OHKO anyone mentioned above, he 2HKOs them, which will require 2 rounds of combat. This can be scary, since Alfonse is doubled by every one of these units and Takumi in particular doubles Alfy for 14*2. Still, Alfonse can't be ORKO'd by anybody in this group which is reassuring since that means he can tank a round to jump into Folk range if the need arises. This could be strategic against Takumi, as he can bait Takumi, take two hits, then retaliate with a swift OHKO of his own. More specifically, Death Blow Alfonse deals 32 damage to neutral Takumis and their standard 40 HP, so perhaps a Rally Attack & Spur Atk/Threaten Def are more of what the doctor orders. Not bad, honestly.

On the Defense

5* Alfonse isn't very durable, but he's just tanky enough to survive more than you'd think. With his perpetually neutral nature and no support, Alfonse isn't OHKOd by anybody except for +Atk Effie, but he's 2HKO'd by a slew of common foes, several of which double him and therefore ORKO him.

Dealing with Reds:

   Oh boy. Alfonse is 2HKO'd by almost half of the reds., notably, every mage other than Leo/Raigh/Henry (who are all totally awful and 3HKO him). Of note, +Atk Hana can kill him but only after two hits. Nobody else can kill him at one range, making Tharja and Y!Tiki great units to counter him. Again, 22 is the magic number of damage needed to put our boy into Folk-range. Many units, especially higher tier ones, do this with ease, including M!Corrin (16*2), Ryoma and Lucina (18*2), Marth and Eliwood (15*2) and a single hit from the recently popular Sanaki or Lilina. Reds go about even with the guy though, so it's relatively safe to let Alfonse take a hit, then counter back with +11 damage over what he initially hit with, since that +11 often closes the gap and scores an immediate followup KO. Not bad in this department, really. Common Tiki/Tharja are a threat to most, but everyone else he shrugs off alright, and sets himself up for another whallop with careful placement.

Dealing with Blues:

   Yeesh. F!Corrin, Linde and Sharena ORKO the poor guy, doubling for 25+ dmg each. Sapphire Lancers (Sully, Subaki and Azura) also decimate him ORKO/2HKO style, since they both double him. Reinhardt OHKOs via Dire Thunder, as well as Cordelia with her Brave Lance. Abel does the same because of Swordbreaker, but only if he has 50+% HP.

   With a +Atk Nature: Catria, Olwen, Odin and Peri also double for the kill. +Atk Effie OHKOs the guy on Enemy Phase.

   With a +Spd Nature: Abel (Sub 50% HP), Nowi and M!Robin do it too.

   In terms of usability, everybody mentioned above kills him, but loads of units put him into Folkvangr's ability range. Gwendolyn, Donnel and Oboro fail to trigger his Folk-range. Everyone else either does or just kills the dude. It's a struggle, but at least he can survive the occasional single round encounter with Nowi and M!Robin. If you let a blue look at Alfonse, you're probably doing it wrong.

Dealing with Colorless:

   Takumi doubles for 14, putting Alfonse at a huge risk, while Elise and Sakura 3HKO him (and double). Brave bow users deal less than 20 damage in total, as they're too slow and don't even deal 10 dmg per hit (Gordin deals 9, Klein deals 5). I wouldn't call him a hard Takumi counter by any means, but he does benefit by not getting knocked too deeply into Folk-range, taking 28 dmg or 34 at the most. I'm having a newfound appreciation for Elise...at least I would if she had a few more HP.

Dealing with Greens:

   Nino 2RKOs Alfonse, doubling him for 14*2. This is the most threatening green to Alfonse. In terms of melee, nobody deals over 15 damage to him. Brave Axers fail on him hard, and Julia deals 17. Fae can be a threat, dealing 14 and taking little damage back.

 

Other Synergy and Team Options:

☆☆☆☆ & ☆☆☆☆☆

• Atk Support
  • Hone Atk through F!Corrin, Nino, Olivia
    • Obviously more attack can't hurt Alfonse and his sky-high offense. F!Corrin compliments this nicely by lowering enemy speed with Dark Breath and raising Alfonse's attack with Hone atk. She's probably his best partner, as she gives Alfonse what he wants , more muscle and slower opponents, letting him more safely tank hits here and there and also dish out more damage. Alfonse returns the favor with his own Spur Atk.
  • Threaten Def & Attack through Ephraim
    • It's no joke that Ephraim is a beast, but between Siegmund's innate Hone Atk 2 and his own Threaten Def and Seal Def, he gives Alfonse more of what he wants...more power and softer punching bags. Ephraim checks most reds easily enough, letting Alfonse dash in for the smooth Kill, while hits buff Ephraim's Moonbow meter (Luna). High attack work for these both, and with speed support or range support, these two offer tons of power virtually unmatched by other common threats
  • Spur Atk through Hector, Barst
    • Alfonse runs Spur Atk, as well as these two, and they offer excellent green coverage against blues that plague Alfonse like...the plague. They offer each other circular Atk buffs and both have benefits of their own, Barst reaping moreso due to his Brave, but Hector also because of Armads' auto-double attack.
  • Rally Attack through Sharena
    • She gives him more Def and more Attack, and hard covers many reds
• Speed Support
  • Spur Spd through Jeorge
    • Since just about every unit that has Spur Spd or Hone Spd is red, Jeorge is alright, as he can chip pretty well with Parthia and let Alfonse close the gap, giving him some safety speed and between the two of them, finishing off most non-blues. Alfonse returns the favor with Spur Atk of his own, making Jeorge fairly potent
  • Hone Spd/Threaten Spd through Hinoka/Shanna and Takumi
    • Hinoka runs a mighty 43 attack and while her Hone Spd would only be 2, that +3 speed helps out Alfonse a lot.
    • Takumi offers Close Counter and Threaten Speed, letting Alfonse dive in much more safely. Takumi's chip often falls short of a 2HKO against more bulky units, but Alfonse can make up the difference with Death Blow. Shanna on the other hand, covers blue nicely with her respectable 41 attack and frequent Iceberg + Desperation combo.
• Dancers
  • Azura
    • Blue coverage is important via her Sapphire Lance and Dancing lets Alfonse strike more often, but more importantly, get around harder. Spur Atk helps Azura's Sapphire Lance do her job against greens easier, while she gives him more to do
• Ranged Support
  • Green support through Julia, Nino
    • Julia hits hard and appreciates Spur Atk, while her own Breath of Life offers Alfonse a bit of helpful sustainability to bring him back from the brink of getting 2HKO'd by many Colorless and Red threats
    • Nino eats up his Spur Attack, letting him function more as support. There are better options but it's something!
  • Blue support through M!Robin, Reinhardt
    • Magic can't hurt and these guys are common threats to many a problem. Both appreciate the return Spur Atk buff, especially Reinhardt and M!Robin returns a bit of Def via Spur Def, which can be helpful in situations

Who do I suggest to run?:

Alfonse boasts Spur Atk 3 and muscle, which is pretty much matched by Lucina, who trades defense and res for lots of speed and more balls out offense. That said, similar teams help each other out:

• Nino/Azura/Ryoma
  • Ryoma and Nino both offer ranged support against, and all three boost unique stats for Nino (Azura, Res | Ryoma, Spd | Alfonse, Atk) which serve to make Nino extremely powerful. She'll check all blues, most greens/colorless and even many Reds, letting Ryoma/Alfonse with their decent defenses jump in for leftover killing. Azura hard-checks common reds on Player Phase with an attack and/or speed buff, the former which Nino can produce herself
• Sharena/Barst/Nowi
  • A lot of Attack buff overlap exists, but Spurs stack, making everyone threatening with some attack boost from either Rally, Spur or both. Sharena and Nowi boost bulk. Barst offers mobility assistance while Nowi's Lightning Breath and nice stats let her tank incoming Red/Blue ranged attacks and offer back some punishment in the form of enough chip damage to let the other three swoop in for kills based on color

Alfonse boasts a respectible 173, giving him a tie score with Chrom/Lucina/Lyn/Eirika as other Sword Lords, while putting him just behind Marth/Ryoma/M!Corrin and the dragons. Running him with Nowi/Sharena/Ryoma or a heavy tank like Effie/Hector let the arena score shoot up, but 173 isn't bad, since Nino/Azura are mid 160s themselves.

 Final Words

5* Alfonse hits hard but leaves a lot to be desired. He's difficult to fit on a team, when so many other units do his job and better. He offers utility in Spur Atk that Lucina offers (and that's it for team synergy. He needs buffs to function, primarily because of his low speed, and offers heavy chip, but cripples from ranged assault and often can't handle the followup attack versus opponents with about 50-55 attack, something extremely common in Upper-Mid and High tier characters. He checks Greens well, but most reds check Greens well, so his effectiveness is again, moot. The worst thing is his 25 speed, allowing him to only beat out speeds of two other Sword-users (Seliph, who boasts way more bulk in exchange for a bit less raw power, and Brash Assault forcing auto double-strikes at sub-50% HP) and Draug (who's a tank meant to outbulk with his Brave sword and support armors with Ward Armor). Chrom has 25 speed just like him, but more stats everywhere else except Res and better skills/weaponry, letting him accomplish much more on Enemy Phase, which Alfonse just can't really capitalize on as much). Sol takes 2 turns too long to activate and even with a 1 turn boost, would rarely see usage.

Alfonse is outclassed at his own game, but offers downright entertaining numbers and a few redeeming qualities that make him not entirely useless if pushed to 5*. My advice? Don't worry about the friendzone and go for his sister.

Edited March 7, 2017 by Elieson
Updated Atk vs Greens, originally 1 point lower than they should've been.

[Arcanite]

@Elieson it says great azure badges at the beginning. It's supposed to be great scarlet badges. Nice job btw :)

Edited March 7, 2017 by Arcanite

[Elieson]

4 minutes ago, Arcanite said:

great azure badges at the beginning. It's supposed to be great scarlet badges

Thanks m8!

[Kruggov]

Yaaaah, poor Alfonse. He is fun to use, but that 25 Spd kills him. Not to mention Sharena or even Anna are better feather target. I guess if we ever get IVs for those three, +Spd or +Atk will make him better... wishful thinking.

Also VS Blue section isn't finished?

[Elieson]

3 minutes ago, Kruggov said:

Also VS Blue section isn't finished?

That's the joke!

Wow, I had it typed in excel and forgot to copypaste it. Fixed!

[Ice Dragon]

58 minutes ago, Elieson said:

Ineffective Atk (v Blue/Colorless) [40.8 = 40 because RoundDown]

You forgot to round this the other direction.

[Elieson]

12 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

You forgot to round this the other direction.

The formula, 51*1.2 = 40.8, which would be 

 

Ugh, I see what I did wrong with my formulae now. I had a parenthesis in the wrong spot for RoundDown.

Can I bug you for an example I just tested this out a bit more thoroughly and see how I flubbed that. 

 

Edited March 7, 2017 by Elieson

[Ice Dragon]

2 minutes ago, Elieson said:

The formula, 51*1.2 = 40.8, which would be 

 

Ugh, I see what I did wrong with my formulae now. I had a parenthesis in the wrong spot for RoundDown.

Can I bug you for an example I just tested this out a bit more thoroughly and see how I flubbed that. 

Yeah, it should be [51 - TRUNC(51 * 0.2)] or [CEILING(51 * 0.8)].

Edited March 7, 2017 by Ice Dragon

[Elieson]

I prefer RoundDown over Trunc, deal with it.

I'm using the former now, and I had the [51... set to 51 - [Trunc(51*.2)], like a moron. Thank you again m8

Editing my numbers to reflect proper counts. After all this, the only incorrect numbers were that I was -1 on all accounts of Alfonse's atk vs Green units.

Edited March 7, 2017 by Elieson

[Ice Dragon]

@Elieson

I just ran into another good test case for calculations with definitive results. I thought it would relevant to share for future calculations.

Effective damage modifiers are added to the base Atk first. Weapon triangle modifiers work off of the Atk after applying effective damage modifiers. Truncation happens to each modifier at each step.

Marth with 44 Atk with Falchion against Nowi with 30 Def results in 23 damage, observed in-game.

Calculation is as follows:

1. 44 Atk x 0.5 effective damage modifier results in a 22 modifier. The effective Atk is now 44 + 22 = 66.
2. 66 Atk x 0.2 weapon triangle modifier results in a 13.2 modifier, rounded down to 13. The effective Atk is now 66 - 13 = 53.
3. 53 Atk - 30 Def is 23 damage.

This result rejects the following possibilities:

1. Weapon triangle modifiers added before effective damage modifiers, truncation at each step, which would have resulted in 24 damage.
2. Weapon triangle modifiers and effective damage modifiers in a single step, truncation at the end, which would have resulted in 22 damage.

[SatsumaFSoysoy]

A bit late, but I'd like to mention the Tharja/Nino/Azura/Sharena team, the team with pretty much the highest damage output at the moment, as one of Sharena's suggested teams. Lack of close range presence doesn't really matter, because you're gunning down everything before they get to you, then getting out via Azura. Olivia is not run because Hone Attack overlaps with Sharena's Rally Attack, reducing the max buffs you can give, while Azura has Fortify Res instead.

As for Alfonse... Even random Reds like Selena are preferable to him. The minimum requirement for the usability of a Red is to quickly dispose of Hector; everything else is honestly just a bonus, and the ones with the best bonuses are up on the top of the food chain, while the ones with good bonuses, but a tough matchup with Hector (poor Lyn) get sidelined a bit. In this regard, Alfonse can make it work, but requires Folk to really do that well, which makes him a really bad choice. You could just pull 4* Selena and be better off running her instead of raising Alfonse. Even a 3* would work, since it's only 2k feathers to get to 4*.

If you REALLY want to use Alfonse, a Dancer is a must, because these are the only two situations you'd find him in if he's not dead already:

1) Get doubled by ranged attacker, go in and murder them in one hit (or fail but still do one hit anyway), which leaves your Sol counter still at 1. You need to get out now or die.
2) Get doubled by a melee attacker, hit back once. On Player Phase, hit and hopefully kill them, and Sol is charged up. But your health is still in the gutter because it was ready one turn too late.

I honestly don't see how you could run this guy like this lol. If you don't have a Dancer, the rest of your team will have to dive and kill everything in range, and if they can do that, then you're better off running someone else to support your teammates than Alfonse.

 

Honestly, everything about Sharena's confession screams "more than friends" except for that one line about being friends.

Edited March 7, 2017 by SatsumaFSoysoy

[Vaximillian]

@Ice Dragon, or you can multiply by 0.8 and round up. One operation less, I suppose.

[Ice Dragon]

1 minute ago, Vaximillian said:

@Ice Dragon, or you can multiply by 0.8 and round up. One operation less, I suppose.

Consistency. I'm a software developer. I try to think how the computer thinks. Truncation is an easier operation than rounding up. Patterns are nice.

[Kruggov]

6 hours ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

As for Alfonse... Even random Reds like Selena are preferable to him. The minimum requirement for the usability of a Red is to quickly dispose of Hector; everything else is honestly just a bonus, and the ones with the best bonuses are up on the top of the food chain, while the ones with good bonuses, but a tough matchup with Hector (poor Lyn) get sidelined a bit.

I wouldn't say Selena is preferable to Alfonse, she has 4th lowest attack out of all reds. And that means she can't really fight non-armors effectively. Besides, it's not like every team in the game has Hector. Also 4* Selena will NOT deal with Hector, unless she outlevels him - she doesn't have quite enough firepower to ORKO him even with Armorslayer. Meanwhile Al can deal with a TON of other greens (like Camilla), and some reds.

But yeah, Al is not the best red out there. But not the worst either (Sophia/Hinata/Draug egh).

[SatsumaFSoysoy]

29 minutes ago, Kruggov said:

I wouldn't say Selena is preferable to Alfonse, she has 4th lowest attack out of all reds. And that means she can't really fight non-armors effectively. Besides, it's not like every team in the game has Hector. Also 4* Selena will NOT deal with Hector, unless she outlevels him - she doesn't have quite enough firepower to ORKO him even with Armorslayer. Meanwhile Al can deal with a TON of other greens (like Camilla), and some reds.

But yeah, Al is not the best red out there. But not the worst either (Sophia/Hinata/Draug egh).

I'd say Draug is better than Alfonse. Brave offense and bulk at least give him a teeny bit of purpose.

Eh, but with the other Greens, it's not like Alfonse will do much better anyway. 5* Alfonse can't ORKO Hector either, pretty sure. Yeah, Selena's pretty bad, but I don't think she's any worse than Alfonse before 5*, which means you don't have to invest in Al.

Edited March 8, 2017 by SatsumaFSoysoy

[DehNutCase]

Selena might end up pretty amazing if you can inherit something like a Silver Sword+. Her BST, if you ignore her crappy weapon, is actually identical to Lucina's.

Edit: Admittedly that's pretty unlikely, but at the very least she'll be able to pick up Life and Death or Fury to help offenses (she has more than enough bulk already), and reposition is always nice to have.

Edited March 8, 2017 by DehNutCase

[Kruggov]

Well if Selena can be buffed by skills, why not Al? I'd say Life and Death/Brash Assault/Quick Riposte to fill out his B slot. will help him a lot. Maybe Desperation, but I don't know how that works (does it guarantee double or just makes doubling work like a brave weapon? If second, then useless for Al)

[Ice Dragon]

7 hours ago, Kruggov said:

Well if Selena can be buffed by skills, why not Al? I'd say Life and Death/Brash Assault/Quick Riposte to fill out his B slot. will help him a lot. Maybe Desperation, but I don't know how that works (does it guarantee double or just makes doubling work like a brave weapon? If second, then useless for Al)

Life and Death, which increases Alphonse's Spd from 25 to 30, doesn't give him or prevent any notable double attacks and costs him 5 Def, which he definitely would rather keep. Life and Death is also a type A skill, so it'd force him to get rid of Death Blow.

Desperation doesn't guarantee a double attack. It only forces your follow-up hit to come before your opponent's attack if you already have a follow-up hit, so it's most useful on fast characters that don't want to or can't tank hits on player phase.

Quick Riposte probably works best on Alphonse because any enemy that can double attack him on enemy phase will fully charge Sol for use on player phase (2 attacks from the enemy, 2 attacks from Alphonse, Sol has a 4-charge cooldown). Alphonse only needs to tank 2 hits from the enemy with Quick Riposte before he can activate Sol, compared to Brash Assault, which requires Alphonse to tank 3 hits.

 

20 hours ago, DehNutCase said:

Selena might end up pretty amazing if you can inherit something like a Silver Sword+. Her BST, if you ignore her crappy weapon, is actually identical to Lucina's.

Edit: Admittedly that's pretty unlikely, but at the very least she'll be able to pick up Life and Death or Fury to help offenses (she has more than enough bulk already), and reposition is always nice to have.

With a Silver Sword+, her Atk is still rather low at 37/40/44, considering her Spd of 35 is high enough to prevent double attacks, but not high enough to double attack back against any major threats. Her innate Threaten Spd is enough to net a few double attacks, but only against neutral 35 Spd and lower.

Even with a Silver Sword+ and Quick Riposte, she still fails to kill any of the A+ or higher swords, forcing her to spend her player phase turn finishing them off.

Silver Sword+, Quick Riposte, and Atk +3 allows her to barely kill about half of the A+ or higher swords on the counterattack. However, most +Def and +HP variants still survive.

Distant Counter and Quick Riposte (with no change of weapon) allows her to kill Lilina, Sanaki, Julia, Klein, and Kagero on the counterattack and severely damage Takumi. Silver Sword+ still does not allow her to one-round kill Takumi unless he is -HP or -Def.

Unless you want to sacrifice her above-average defenses to run Life and Death, she's not really going to be killing anything important in 2 hits.

[Kruggov]

22 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Life and Death, which increases Alphonse's Spd from 25 to 30, doesn't give him or prevent any notable double attacks and costs him 5 Def, which he definitely would rather keep. Life and Death is also a type A skill, so it'd force him to get rid of Death Blow.

Life and Death doesn't boost Speed, it boost Attack. Also, Life and Death is A? I was sure it was B... *checks on FEHWiki* Yup...

22 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Desperation doesn't guarantee a double attack. It only forces your follow-up hit to come before your opponent's attack if you already have a follow-up hit, so it's most useful on fast characters that don't want to or can't tank hits on player phase.

Kinda figured that out already... But thanks for clarifying it anyway.

22 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Quick Riposte probably works best on Alphonse because any enemy that can double attack him on enemy phase will fully charge Sol for use on player phase (2 attacks from the enemy, 2 attacks from Alphonse, Sol has a 4-charge cooldown). Alphonse only needs to tank 2 hits from the enemy with Quick Riposte before he can activate Sol, compared to Brash Assault, which requires Alphonse to tank 3 hits.

I think he can actually ORKO about 70% 1-range Reds/Greens with it. Then he can whack another guy with Folk-boosted Sol and be ready to at least take another hit. Ofc blues are still a problem...

[Ice Dragon]

2 minutes ago, Kruggov said:

Life and Death doesn't boost Speed, it boost Attack. Also, Life and Death is A? I was sure it was B... *checks on FEHWiki* Yup...

Life and Death: Grants Atk/Spd+5. Inflicts Def/Res-5.

 

5 minutes ago, Kruggov said:

I think he can actually ORKO about 70% 1-range Reds/Greens with it. Then he can whack another guy with Folk-boosted Sol and be ready to at least take another hit. Ofc blues are still a problem...

Indeed, he one-round kills every A+ or higher sword-user except Eldigan and Chrom on with a Quick Riposte counterattack.

Which means the next problem is he takes too much damage in the process. Even with Sol, I don't think he'll be able to heal enough HP to take out another sword-user. If you're using him as a counterattack tank with a follow-up player phase attack, I think Threaten Atk (replacing Spur Atk) or even Defiant Def (replacing Death Blow) would be necessary to keep him alive.

[Kruggov]

4 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Life and Death: Grants Atk/Spd+5. Inflicts Def/Res-5.

 

Mestupido. Learn to read, Kruggov)))

14 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Which means the next problem is he takes too much damage in the process. Even with Sol, I don't think he'll be able to heal enough HP to take out another sword-user. If you're using him as a counterattack tank with a follow-up player phase attack, I think Threaten Atk (replacing Spur Atk) or even Defiant Def (replacing Death Blow) would be necessary to keep him alive.

Well 2 swordies is... actually more common that I think. There are too many sword users that start at 5-star.

Tbh i'm out of ideas at the moment. Threaten Atk might be a good idea. Running a healer with Rehabilitate will also help him, but that's stretching things.

Also i'm really surprised how one skill can do THIS much to Alfonse's effectiveness) Eyeopening to me. I'm afraid just how broken some guys will be with skills that fit them really well,

[Elieson]

1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

Life and Death, which increases Alphonse's Spd from 25 to 30, doesn't give him or prevent any notable double attacks and costs him 5 Def, which he definitely would rather keep. Life and Death is also a type A skill, so it'd force him to get rid of Death Blow.

 

N/-Spd Takumi runs 30 speed so he'd be safe from getting doubled by +Atk Takumis, a common nuisance. N/-Spd Marth runs 34/31 spd too, so 30 speed would keep Alfy safe from 2/3 marth variants.