War Elephants!

[Jotari]

So war elephants were a thing that existed and sometimes show up in these fantasy war games. Even Tolkien used them. Because elephants are cool. Yet we've seen hide nor hair of them in the years Fire Emblem's been around. I don't think anyone's ever even suggested the idea around here. Well I'm doing it now. What would you say to an elephant class? Would you like it and how would they work? Would they use bows or would they use something akin to strikes and just trample their foes? And what other ideas might a more Indian or Indian or Afriican inspired nation provide?

Edited March 3, 2017 by Jotari

[Magical Glace]

It'd probably be slow, and have quite the CON if it exists.  

Since their main use was charging in to scare, I can see them getting a skill along the lines of Threaten skills in Heroes, or something that has a chance of inducing Panic (invert buff/debuffs)/Berserk (attack random units in range) for 1 turn.

[King Marth 64]

10 minutes ago, Jotari said:

So war elephants were a thing that existed and sometimes show up in these fantasy war games. Even Tolkien used them. Because elephants are cool. Yet we've seen hide nor hair of them in the years Fire Emblem's been around. I don't think anyone's ever even suggested the idea around here. Well I'm doing it now. What would you say to an elephant class? Would you like it and how would they work? Would they use bows or would they use something akin to strikes and just trample their foes? And what other ideas might a more Indian or Indian inspired nation provide?

That's a good point. Maybe more of an Indian or African looking nation if they'll add Elephants in a new Fire Emblem game since we did have Chon'sin and Hoshido resembles more of a Japanese looking country, but the other Fire Emblem games did have more like medieval themed.

[Ken Masters]

Even though Fire Emblem's lore borrows a lot from japanse culture, it's quite clear that the setting is trying to emulate european fantasy.

War Elephants were used scarcely by Persians/Mongols. Not only were they insanely expensive to sustain (your average japanese/european noble wouldn't be able to afford one, let alone have an army of'em) but they were also highly impractical, as they would most often than not be more dangerous to the allied army than the enemy once the animal died to casual/aimed arrow fire (which happened really fast).

A war elephant gives no tactical advantage whatsoever in this setting :P

 

 

It'd be cool though

Edited March 3, 2017 by Sarcopathic

[Hawk King]

Haha, they would be like 4 move canto units with low Speed and yeah, they would probably have to use bows or magic for the range because elephants are so high up.

[Jotari]

6 minutes ago, Sarcopathic said:

Even though Fire Emblem's lore borrows a lot from japanse culture, it's quite clear that the setting is trying to emulate european fantasy.

War Elephants were used scarcely by Persians/Mongols. Not only were they insanely expensive to sustain (your average japanese/european noble wouldn't be able to afford one, let alone have an army of'em) but they were also highly impractical, as they would most often than not be more dangerous to the allied army than the enemy once the animal died to casual/aimed arrow fire (which happened really fast).

A war elephant gives no tactical advantage whatsoever in this setting :P

 

 

It'd be cool though

I'm no expert on history but I'm pretty sure Hannibal wrecked havoc on Rome with his war elephants. At least until Scipio managed to work out some tactics for destroying them. So there is precedent for elephants in a European setting (even though Rome was a much earlier era than the stereotypical medieval). You could even reflect this trait by making them extremely powerful but giving them a massive weakness to something (probably not spears in general but maybe something like automated triangle attacks or bows).

Edited March 3, 2017 by Jotari

[Tetragrammaton]

4 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I'm no expert on history but I'm pretty sure Hannibal wrecked havoc on Rome with his war elephants. At least until Scipio managed to work out some tactics for destroying them. So there is precedent for elephants in a European setting (even though Rome was a much earlier era than the stereotypical medieval). You could even reflect this trait by making them extremely powerful but giving them a massive weakness to something (probably not spears in general but maybe something like automated triangle attacks or bows).

The elephants are too big so even the rider uses a spear, it can hardly reach the enemy, and you need more than 1 rider for each elephant.

[Ken Masters]

11 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I'm no expert on history but I'm pretty sure Hannibal managed to wreck havoc on Rome with his war elephants. At least until Scipio managed to work out some tactics for destroying them. So there is precedent for elephants in a European setting (even though Rome was a much earlier era). You could even reflect this trait by making them extremely powerful but giving them a massive weakness to something (probably not spears in general but maybe something like automated triangle attacks or bows).

Oh, the second Punic War. For the record, that wasn't Hannibal alone, he was allied with the Celts of northern italy. The attack worked not because War Elephants, but because Romans never expected an army crossing the mountain range from the north.

Even so, tthe numbers were quite a thing: 38,000 infantry, 8,000 cavalry, and 38 elephants. From those 38 elephants, almost no elephants survived the cross (there are no official numbers). So yeah, while the cross itself was quite a feat, Hannibal relied a on his cavalry and infantry the most.

 

Also yeah... FE is clearly medieval times 476 AC - 1492 AC, The Punic Wars happened around 200 BC.

Edited March 3, 2017 by Sarcopathic

[Jotari]

3 minutes ago, hanhnn said:

The elephants are too big so even the rider uses a spear, it can hardly reach the enemy, and you need more than 1 rider for each elephant.

Oh I wasn't talking about elephants using spears. I was talking about spears used against them. As I said in my OP, I'd expect them to use either bows or some kind of tramble based strike weapon.

[Nym]

Ahh that reminds me of Age of Empire 2, good times.

[Tetragrammaton]

2 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Oh I wasn't talking about elephants using spears. I was talking about spears used against them. As I said in my OP, I'd expect them to use either bows or some kind of tramble based strike weapon.

I can say the elephants fear no physical weapons.

Most of the times, they were scared by fire, got panic and charged back their own army.

They can use bow and extremely heavy armor, well, a General on mount I say.

[Ken Masters]

7 minutes ago, Nym said:

Ahh that reminds me of Age of Empire 2, good times.

HOWDOYOUTURNTHISON

10 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Oh I wasn't talking about elephants using spears. I was talking about spears used against them. As I said in my OP, I'd expect them to use either bows or some kind of tramble based strike weapon.

Definetly arrow fire. Elephant skin is thick, but a single arrow can incapacitate it, and a few more kill it. Spears are not ideal, since the elephant charge absolutely destroys a spear frontline (which was the main use of the War elephant, break the frontline to allow free pass to the cavalry).

Fully Armoured WE would have no issue with arrows... but if the rider dies, then you have a giant, rampaging death machine that will charge to any side... so a liability at best

 

Edited March 3, 2017 by Sarcopathic

[Jedi]

Reminds me of some of the re-tellings of the Three Kingdoms period when Zhuge Liang went south to pacify the Nanmans. In Romance of the Three Kingdoms Meng Huo was depicted using Elephants in a couple attempts, but Fire (as previously mentioned) quickly made them scamper 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhuge_Liang's_Southern_Campaign

Yeah Wikipedia isn't the most accurate thing, but it does lay out all the various ways this campaign was retold in historic-fiction.

[Jotari]

Actually the whole needing more than one rider could actually be a somewhat strange dynamic for a character. Since you would have two characters for one unit. There might be some interesting things you could do what that like giving them separate supports...Or probably just make them a pair of twins where their gimmick is that they're indistinguishable from one another.

[Ken Masters]

12 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Or probably just make them a pair of twins where their gimmick is that they're indistinguishable from one another.

That's such a clichéd and lazy concept for a character, IS might actually do it

[NekoKnight]

Maybe it could be a 4/5 movement unit that uses bows and has a trample ability that is Pass + fixed damage to any enemy they pass through They would also have a strike attack that is only used for range one counters. Another idea is that they would get multiple attacks to simulate having two archers on top.

[Jotari]

I could see them using magic too. Would make sense to throw your squishy mage on top of one to rain fire down from above. Though in terms of gameplay that might not be the most balanced thing. Elephants might work better in a system where mounts are a resource so you can place any unit you want on one with varying degrees of success. That could also allow enemies to target either the mount or the rider leading open to the possibility of a rampage if you leave an elephant riderless.

[Baldrick]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Actually the whole needing more than one rider could actually be a somewhat strange dynamic for a character. Since you would have two characters for one unit. There might be some interesting things you could do what that like giving them separate supports...Or probably just make them a pair of twins where their gimmick is that they're indistinguishable from one another.

They could be two units auto-paired up. A pegasus ferrying a horse over mountains is one thing, but ferrying an elephant would be quite another.

[Azure Sen]

As for the topic at hand, I'm pretty neutral on the idea; I'm worried war elephants would just end up being no different than current cavalry units. From a gameplay perspective, I'd say it'd be best to make elephant riders who can use both bows and spears to mimic historical precedent. Maybe give them Trample (which makes more sense than giving it to wyverns) and a weakness to projectiles and/or fire to mimic the historical tactics frequently used against them. Also if it leads to flaming pig trainers as a class effective against them that would make me very happy.

1 hour ago, Jedi said:

Reminds me of some of the re-tellings of the Three Kingdoms period when Zhuge Liang went south to pacify the Nanmans. In Romance of the Three Kingdoms Meng Huo was depicted using Elephants in a couple attempts, but Fire (as previously mentioned) quickly made them scamper 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhuge_Liang's_Southern_Campaign

Yeah Wikipedia isn't the most accurate thing, but it does lay out all the various ways this campaign was retold in historic-fiction.

I'm not quite sure why this is claiming that elephants were that involved in any of Meng Huo's campaigns, because in the actual novel only King Mulu rode an elephant, and his animal army was said to consist of "tigers and panthers, jackals and wolves, venomous reptiles and ferocious beasts" with nary a mention of any other elephants; maybe they're basing it on later retellings where elephants are more involved. (Of course, said article also claims that no woman was ever recorded fighting in Three Kingdoms history and Wang Yi famously did.) Yay for pedantic nerdery.

Edited March 3, 2017 by AzureSen

[Jedi]

2 minutes ago, AzureSen said:

I'm not quite sure why this is claiming that elephants were that involved in any of Meng Huo's campaigns, because in the actual novel only King Mulu rode an elephant, and his animal army was said to consist of "tigers and panthers, jackals and wolves, venomous reptiles and ferocious beasts" with nary a mention of any other elephants; maybe they're basing it on later retellings where elephants are more involved. (Of course, said article also claims that no woman was ever recorded fighting in Three Kingdoms history and Wang Yi famously did.) Yay for pedantic nerdery.

Yeah its kind of funny how off the wall RTK is in some regards.

[The DanMan]

10 hours ago, Jotari said:

I'm no expert on history but I'm pretty sure Hannibal wrecked havoc on Rome with his war elephants. At least until Scipio managed to work out some tactics for destroying them. So there is precedent for elephants in a European setting (even though Rome was a much earlier era than the stereotypical medieval). You could even reflect this trait by making them extremely powerful but giving them a massive weakness to something (probably not spears in general but maybe something like automated triangle attacks or bows).

All but two of his elephants died while crossing the Alps-- the demoralizing effect on the Romans was from intimidation alone. And as far as an intimidation-based class goes, I'd sooner see a Cataphract over War Elephants.

[SpearOfLies]

A bow unit weak to bow unit? Legit.

I don't see any point to add such unit.

[Jotari]

25 minutes ago, SpearOfLies said:

A bow unit weak to bow unit? Legit.

I don't see any point to add such unit.

Kinshi Knights are already a bow unit weak to bows.

[SpearOfLies]

13 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Kinshi Knights are already a bow unit weak to bows.

It's a joke.

And Kinshi knights seems more useful than war elephants  and they are not realistic. I ask myself why people bother so much to add realistic stuff on Fire Emblem while there are so many unrealistic units.

[Jotari]

6 minutes ago, SpearOfLies said:

It's a joke.

And Kinshi knights seems more useful than war elephants  and they are not realistic. I ask myself why people bother so much to add realistic stuff on Fire Emblem while there are so many unrealistic units.

Who's bothered about adding realistic stuff?