Skill Inheritance Discussion.

[DehNutCase]

16 minutes ago, MonkeyCheez3K said:

Is there any character who can reliably use Close Counter besides Takumi? I have a spare one and I can't seem to find any worthy successor... Merging with my other Takumi feels wrong as Takumi lost a lot of his appeal with SI and I am content with having an efficient one, where the +2 stats wouldn't matter. I wanted to give it to my Spring Festival Lucina (as she is fairly bulky in comparison to Linde and a lot faster than Robin), but I got a -DEF/+RES one and I don't think I'll get a second one, unfortunately (which is a shame, I kinda wanted a Spring Lucina to replace my Robin as the Blarraven mage).

So just in general, what unit could actually benefit from Close Counter? I just don't see any.

The problem with Close-counter is that, to use it well, a unit needs bulk and offenses, and that almost never happens, especially on ranged heroes. (Minerva is a melee example, and of course Takumi is a ranged example---Takumi's stat-spread is so good that even without close-counter, he'd still be the best archer.)

Merric can do it well, Tharja if you S-skill or IV her some hp, Jaffar if you hand him poison dagger+, Odin, sort-of, given that you can IV him to have the right bulk direction, but he'll be hurting for damage without _Blade & buffs.

[BANRYU]

42 minutes ago, MonkeyCheez3K said:

Is there any character who can reliably use Close Counter besides Takumi? I have a spare one and I can't seem to find any worthy successor... Merging with my other Takumi feels wrong as Takumi lost a lot of his appeal with SI and I am content with having an efficient one, where the +2 stats wouldn't matter. I wanted to give it to my Spring Festival Lucina (as she is fairly bulky in comparison to Linde and a lot faster than Robin), but I got a -DEF/+RES one and I don't think I'll get a second one, unfortunately (which is a shame, I kinda wanted a Spring Lucina to replace my Robin as the Blarraven mage).

So just in general, what unit could actually benefit from Close Counter? I just don't see any.

DehNutcase and Ice Dragon have some good suggestions; m!Robin is a good example of what to shoot for IMO, though the only thing that keeps him from being perfect for it is really liking the benefits of Triangle Adept with Raudrraven.

Other than Robin, Merric and Henry stand out to me as candidates who have high defense and would benefit from being able to counter at melee range, though Henry has pretty poor offenses and so really needs Raudrblade in order to make up for it if he's not running Raven + TriAdept IMO. Sophia is notable for having pretty good bulk on both sides as well as good Strength, though she really has to be careful with matchups on both sides since her defenses kind of skirt the edges of being barely enough to survive against most things, if that. I'm not as knowledgeable on grey units but from what I know Jakob, Saizo, Jaffar, and Gordin all also have good defense; Merric and Gordin as flier-bait with Close Counter and either QuickRip or a Breaker or something could be decent. I know Merric always seems kind of tough to kill. 

IMO Henry is one of the units who really needs it to be effective, though he may not necessarily be its best user. Odin probably falls in line with this as well, being also pretty offensively weak but with good defense. EDIT: Oh I think Bunny Camilla also had pretty strong defense so she'd probably also use it well. 

My top picks would probably be Merric, Gordin, Bun Camilla, Saizo, Jaffar, Henry, and Odin (more or less in that order). 

EDIT: Oh I don't think about him much but Gaius with his Rogue Dagger might also be good. 

 

EDIT AGAIN: ....actually, why Tharja @DehNutCase? I don't disagree but given that she's pretty fragile, (albeit with good HP), I find that suggestion a little surprising. She'd want to run it with Vantage and obv a buffing team I imagine?

Edited April 13, 2017 by BANRYU

[mcsilas]

1 hour ago, ILikeKirbys said:

@Kaden Eh, I don't really care about Arena building right now either (I built a cavalry team with Reinhardt for all my feather-getting needs), I mostly just think in a vacuum of probably-wouldn't-be-practical-but-wouldn't-it-be-so-cool-if and trying to make units I like work.
Although, how does Gordin do better with a Brave Bow than Setsuna?

@mcsilas I'm kinda suprised. I honestly thought Hinoka would get killed on the counterattack here. Guess I overestimated Effie (were you using neutral-ATK or +ATK Effie tho?).

Yeah neutral, but I just checked and she even survives +Attack Effie.

49 minutes ago, MonkeyCheez3K said:

Is there any character who can reliably use Close Counter besides Takumi? I have a spare one and I can't seem to find any worthy successor... Merging with my other Takumi feels wrong as Takumi lost a lot of his appeal with SI and I am content with having an efficient one, where the +2 stats wouldn't matter. I wanted to give it to my Spring Festival Lucina (as she is fairly bulky in comparison to Linde and a lot faster than Robin), but I got a -DEF/+RES one and I don't think I'll get a second one, unfortunately (which is a shame, I kinda wanted a Spring Lucina to replace my Robin as the Blarraven mage).

So just in general, what unit could actually benefit from Close Counter? I just don't see any.

Aside from male Robin, maybe Merric? Normally fliers would be tempted to attack him at close range before he can fire off Excalibur, but with Close Counter he can still decimate fliers at melee range.

You lose slight bulk from removing HP+5 or Triangle Adept but at least in terms of HP there's the sacred seal to slightly make up for it.

 

edit: too slow, multiple ninja'd haha

Edited April 13, 2017 by mcsilas

[DehNutCase]

27 minutes ago, BANRYU said:

DehNutcase and Ice Dragon have some good suggestions; m!Robin is a good example of what to shoot for IMO, though the only thing that keeps him from being perfect for it is really liking the benefits of Triangle Adept with Raudrraven.

Other than Robin, Merric and Henry stand out to me as candidates who have high defense and would benefit from being able to counter at melee range, though Henry has pretty poor offenses and so really needs Raudrblade in order to make up for it if he's not running Raven + TriAdept IMO. Sophia is notable for having pretty good bulk on both sides as well as good Strength, though she really has to be careful with matchups on both sides since her defenses kind of skirt the edges of being barely enough to survive against most things, if that. I'm not as knowledgeable on grey units but from what I know Jakob, Saizo, Jaffar, and Gordin all also have good defense; Merric and Gordin as flier-bait with Close Counter and either QuickRip or a Breaker or something could be decent. I know Merric always seems kind of tough to kill. 

IMO Henry is one of the units who really needs it to be effective, though he may not necessarily be its best user. Odin probably falls in line with this as well, being also pretty offensively weak but with good defense. EDIT: Oh I think Bunny Camilla also had pretty strong defense so she'd probably also use it well. 

My top picks would probably be Merric, Gordin, Bun Camilla, Saizo, Jaffar, Henry, and Odin (more or less in that order). 

EDIT: Oh I don't think about him much but Gaius with his Rogue Dagger might also be good. 

 

EDIT AGAIN: ....actually, why Tharja @DehNutCase? I don't disagree but given that she's pretty fragile, (albeit with good HP), I find that suggestion a little surprising. She'd want to run it with Vantage and obv a buffing team I imagine?

Tharja has great bulk, for a mage.

39/23/20 isn't bad at all for bulk. Takumi's 40/25/18. It's literally S-skill +3 hp worth of difference.

 

Edit: Most people L&D her so she feels squishy, but with Close-counter there's no L&D option, so she turns into a Takumi that hits Res. Of course, Takumi has the advantage of being colorless, meaning blues don't rape him, but Tharja isn't bad at all.

Edited April 13, 2017 by DehNutCase

[MonkeyCheez3K]

Hmm, I will have to carefully consider the use of my spare Takumi then. And there I thought male Robin would only want TA3, both options do merit some consideration, though, as well as future Tharjas and upcoming units. Thx for the input, that helped.

[mcsilas]

@BANRYU Your comment on the colorless thieves made me think about a possible Close Counter + Quick Riposte + Poison Dagger+ build.  I believe Saizo is the most suitable, as he has great Defense for a dagger user. So something like:

 

----Poison Dagger Trap----

Poison Dagger+

Moonbow, Swap/Reposition, Attack +1 

A- Close Counter

B- Quick Riposte 3

C- Threaten Speed

---------------

The idea is to bait the enemy into attacking Saizo, making this an Enemy Phase based build. Swap/Reposition moves your allies away from the enemy so they hit Saizo. Melee infantry units who usually charge against ranged units like Saizo will find a painful and poisonous surprise as Close Counter + Quick Riposte activates.

Assuming a defensive, baiting playstyle- Moonbow proc has the most consistent result of killing things in enemy phase.

Some calculations (all without Attack +1 Sacred Seal and vs. neutral units):

Always loses (6 losses): Cecilia, Lilina, Spring Lucina, Olwen, Reinhardt, Tharja

Neutral (64 wins, 8 loses, loses against to the above 6 mages plus Hana and Kagero)

+Atk -Def (71 wins, 6 losses from the 6 mages)

+Atk -Spd (71 wins, 7 losses, loses against 6 mages plus Minerva, but only if -Spd)

+Atk -HP (68 wins, 9 losses, loses to the 6 mages plus against Sanaki, Linde, Julia)

+Atk -Res (68 wins, 10 losses, loses to the 9 mages from above plus against M!Robin) 

In conclusion, you always want an Attack boon, as without it Saizo only defeats 64 wins with Neutral attack. Best result, strangely enough is to have a Def bane despite his good defense, as any other bane makes him lose to more units.

If you give him the Attack+1 Sacred Seal, Saizo's kill list goes up to 76 (including M!Robin, Bartre, Hinata and Peri) and out of his previous losses, now defeats Spring Lucina.

Adding to that, if Saizo attacks a melee unit from the range on the turn before this one AND his Threaten Speed aura activates on an enemy in the range, then you have the potential to score even more kills. If playing this way, Bonfire can be an option as the player phase attack lowers cooldown by at least 1 before the enemy phase- letting him kill 84 units in enemy phase when Bonfire activates despite the -Def bane. (I think only Florina misses out if comparing to using a neutral Def Saizo, and she's not really on the radar)

--------

It's worth noting that Gaius can do a similar build, making the same kills with +Attack but loses against 7 characters (which are mostly physical, being Cordelia, Donnel, Hinoka, Klein, Lon'qu, Ogma and Reinhardt). So Saizo loses against less characters which are mages, while Gaius has more Res and loses to more physical units (6 out of the 7 using Brave weapons- Lon'qu is the only exception). If you're using Gaius, the best boon/bane combo is +Attack/-Res.

If you add the Sacred Seal Attack+1 to the equation, Saizo scores 1 more kill against Gaius's record (76 vs 75).

That said, this build is only if you have a spare Takumi and Kagero in your ranks so it's not exactly the most practical. Still interesting though if you want to use it on a dagger user @MonkeyCheez3K. Kagero herself isn't bulky enough to do this kind of set. 

Edited April 13, 2017 by mcsilas

[GinRei]

7 hours ago, MonkeyCheez3K said:

Hmm, I will have to carefully consider the use of my spare Takumi then. And there I thought male Robin would only want TA3, both options do merit some consideration, though, as well as future Tharjas and upcoming units. Thx for the input, that helped.

Just remember, there's an average of 4 new units coming out every other week (5 if you count the Grand Hero Battles).  There's no need to use your resources right now.

[BANRYU]

@mcsilas NICE xD Yeah wow, surprising to see that Atk+/Def- is actually his best nature for that build, I wouldn't have expected that :o Yeah Gaius and possibly Jakob seem like they could also run that build to decent effect. 

EDIT @MonkeyCheez3K agree with Ginrei, waiting to be sure is ALWAYS a safe option when it comes to skill inheritance, there's absolutely no rush. 

Edited April 13, 2017 by BANRYU

[MonkeyCheez3K]

You guys are way better at theorycrafting than I could ever be. I am keeping my spare Takumi for now, as I wont get another one in the near future and I don't want to rush things when I am not certain - as you all mentioned. That Saizo build is also rather interesting, shame that he is colorless with Kagero and Gaius, which I do not possess and maybe will never do (I kinda avoid all colorless summons, except in any full 5-pull summon of mine, where there is always a max of 1 colorless). Still really good stuff to read and keep in mind.

[mcsilas]

5 hours ago, BANRYU said:

@mcsilas NICE xD Yeah wow, surprising to see that Atk+/Def- is actually his best nature for that build, I wouldn't have expected that :o Yeah Gaius and possibly Jakob seem like they could also run that build to decent effect. 

EDIT @MonkeyCheez3K agree with Ginrei, waiting to be sure is ALWAYS a safe option when it comes to skill inheritance, there's absolutely no rush. 

Looking at the calcs, Jakob doesn't have quite the bulk to survive key threats like Lucina and Ryoma. Gauis manages to make it work with his higher HP and speed combination despite the lower defenses.

but yeah once I get an idea that interests me i just go to the calculator nowadays to find these stats haha. Saving it for now is a good idea, who knows maybe Quick Riposte will be not as viable in the future with skills that prevent counter attacks.

[ILikeKirbys]

Hi, I have a couple of questions.

First, I have a a +SPD/-DEF Subaki that I trained up for the Speed +1 Sacred Seal, and he's grown on me a bit, so I wanna figure out which skills I should give him. I want to build an offensive Subaki since he has so much SPD and still-pretty-alright DEF so I think he could go on the offensive, so this is what I'm thinking (in spoiler 'cause it's a bit longish):

Spoiler

1) Starting with the Sacred Seal, I'm thinking either SPD +1 (for a total of 39 SPD before other skills are taken into account, which probably ensures that nothing that matters can double him without Lancebreaker) or ATK +1 (to give him 26 ATK before a weapon is chosen... Not sure this is worth it, honestly it's not much of a different I don't think, but I could see it mattering). HP +3 might be an alright choice too, but I think the other two Seals that we have right now are slightly more practical.
2) For the weapon, I'm thinking of either keeping his Sapphire Lance+ (which is a good weapon for Subaki, but I may want him to have a little extra power against non-Reds) or switching to Killer Lance+ (would put Subaki's ATK at 36, but he could get quick skill activations, which would be beneficial for him). I don't have any other options for weapons to give him right now, so it's just down to those two.
3) For the Special skill, I'm going with Bonfire or Sol. Bonfire deals 16 extra damage every time Subaki procs it, which is substantial and probably lets him one-round enemies he normally couldn't. However, if I go with Swift Sparrow and a Killer Lance+, then between Subaki's still-alright DEF and easily-buffed-into-goodness ATK, Sol could give Subaki substantial healing if he's attacking and has the Hone Fliers buff when it goes off. Bit of a tough call here, though I'm leaning toward Bonfire.
4) For the A Skill, I'm torn between Armored Blow and Swift Sparrow. Armored Blow would fix Subaki's DEF bane when he's on offense, and give him 19-damage Bonfires on his attack, but Swift Sparrow both directly buffs his ATK and pushes his SPD even higher (to 49 SPD, given that he'll have 39 SPD with SPD Boon and SPD +1 Seal, then add Hone Fliers for 45 and Swift Sparrow's +4 SPD for 49, which might be kinda overkill speed-wise).
5) For the B Skill, I'm thinking of ditching Quick Riposte since +SPD Subaki is really fast and probably won't need any help doubling (especially once he gets a Hone Fliers buff for 44/45 (depends on whether I go with SPD +1 or not) SPD), but I'm not sure what to replace it with. I've narrowed it down to Desperation (Subaki's gonna get Sonic speed with this build, and he still has pretty good DEF, so uninterrupted doubles could be worth pursuing) and Renewal (Subaki's DEF is still fairly alright, especially if I go with Armored Blow so he takes even less damage when he attacks, so maybe passive healing every other turn could help him live longer?), but I don't know which of these to go with.
6) For the C Skill, I think I have a decent idea of what to do here for now. I don't have anyone else with the Flier buffs at the moment, so he wouldn't be able to run any of those (though if I pull another Palla in the future, I might give Subaki her Goad Fliers), so maybe Threaten DEF would be a good option, since Subaki's ATK isn't all that great and lowered DEF would make him (and the non-Bunny Camilla fliers I use with him) more effective?

So, to summarize, I'm thinking:
+SPD/-DEF Subaki with 40 HP / 37 (Sapphire+) or 36 (Killer+) ATK | 39 (38 if ATK +1 Sacred Seal is used instead of SPD +1) SPD | 32 DEF | 22 RES
Weapon: Sapphire Lance+ or Killer Lance+ (can't decide between these two)
Command Skill: Swap (I see no reason to replace this with anything)
Special Skill: Bonfire (or Sol)
A Skill: Armored Blow 3 or Swift Sparrow 2 (again, can't decide between these two)
B Skill: Desperation (or Renewal)
C Skill: Threaten DEF (to maybe be replaced by Goad Fliers if I pull another Palla in the future)
Sacred Seal: SPD +1 (or ATK +1)

Does this look alright? If not, any ideas for where I should go with my Subaki instead?

Second, something that I feel should be discussed in spoilers for the people who don't know anything about tomorrow's banner (but if you already saw the new skills on the banner characters, or you just don't care about spoilers, my second question is in the spoiler):

Spoiler

Perhaps it's a bit early to theorycraft with skills we don't even have yet, but I saw the new Fortress DEF (+5 DEF and -3 ATK) skill in another thread, and I'm wondering; Could Fortress DEF be good on any of the armors? I'm assuming it's an A Skill, since it feels kinda like Life and Death and that's an A Skill, so it could be used alongside Wary Fighter if you want to run that too (I can see a case for this, since higher DEF means less damage taken means that it takes longer to lose the anti-follow-up protection that Wary Fighter provides), but is there anyone who both would really like an extra 5 DEF and doesn't mind losing 3 ATK? I can't really think of any (closest I can come up with is Effie, but I'm not sure she wants to eat the ATK hit instead of just running Death Blow for massive damage, or Hector, for whom it would maybe give him more time with Armads' built-in Quick Riposte 2, but he probably doesn't want to drop Distant Counter for it), but does anyone here have any ideas?

I don't think this is armor-exclusive (it can't be, it's coming on a banner with no armors), that was just my first thought. So, to expand the question a bit, are there any non-armor characters you think could work with Fortress DEF?

 

Edited April 14, 2017 by ILikeKirbys

[Vajra]

For those using Ephraim, did any of you have him inherit Bonfire as a substitute for Moonbow? Mine has a +DEF nature; I figured with his already impressive defense stat he would be a viable candidate for it.

Although it requires an additional turn to activate, I also had him inherit Quick Riposte 3 to somewhat offset that. 

[MaskedAmpharos]

5 minutes ago, Zhu Qiao said:

For those using Ephraim, did any of you have him inherit Bonfire as a substitute for Moonbow? Mine has a +DEF nature; I figured with his already impressive defense stat he would be a viable candidate for it.

Although it requires an additional turn to activate, I also had him inherit Quick Riposte 3 to somewhat offset that. 

I don't see the need, personally. 

Neutral Ephraim with Fury and QR already ORKOs every neutral red and blue melee unit in the game barring Donnel, Effie, Gwendolyn, and Nowi (and Moonbow secures all of those except Gwendolyn), so the extra damage of Bonfire would really just be for taking on certain greens, which Ephraim shouldn't be doing anyways.

Plus, Moonbow paired with QR makes it so that it perfectly activates in one round of combat, which secures several ORKOs for him. 

[mcsilas]

@ILikeKirbys 

Personally I'd go with Swift Sparrow for Subaki since you said you wanted to go offensive and I think he needs all the damage he can get. If you go Killer Lance + Bonfire, you can score more KOs and only lose to Arthur, Hector, and Narcian at full health.  I actually think you don't need Desperation, as with lower health, Subaki scores less kills AND he loses to Takumi as well if not at full health.

I actually think you can go Killer Lance+, Swift Sparrow and Swordbreaker. Using Swordbreaker bumps up your KO coverage from 57 wins to 60 wins- letting you KO Fir, Hana and Lon'qu. The only sword units that survive is Draug and Eldigan- who only has 1 HP left, but they would have survived anyway if you used Sapphire Lance+. Not using Sapphire Lance also means you aren't KOed by Minerva, Cherche and Fae when you inititate the attack, which is interesting despite the Defense boon.

edit: Also if you use Sapphire Lance+ and without Swordbreaker you miss out on Lon'qu, Hana, Fir, Karel, Hinata, Draug and Eldigan. Sapphire Lance+ and Swordbreaker still misses out on Hinata, Draug and Eldigan so Killer Lance+ is the way to go.

As for the spoiler

 

Maybe Selena? I can't remember but I think it was DehNutCase who thinks Selena actually benefits from having an Attack bane than anything else, and Selena has a pretty good tankiness to her Defense stat. She also isn't as slow as armor units and she can probably just rely on procs for the Attack drop.

But I think wait until the skill is released to know full details how it works.

 

 

Edited April 14, 2017 by mcsilas

[DehNutCase]

29 minutes ago, mcsilas said:

As for the spoiler

  Hide contents

Maybe Selena? I can't remember but I think it was DehNutCase who thinks Selena actually benefits from having an Attack bane than anything else, and Selena has a pretty good tankiness to her Defense stat. She also isn't as slow as armor units and she can probably just rely on procs for the Attack drop.

But I think wait until the skill is released to know full details how it works.

 

 

Selena doesn't really 'benefit' per se, of having an attack bane. It's more like: Her offenses are so bad that it's hard to imagine an attack bane hurting her anymore than her base atk already does. Edit: I did run the numbers a bit, and 3 Hp or Res doesn't seem like it's worth losing 3 Atk over.

Anyway, -Hp seems to be the best bane since we have a +3hp s-skill but only +1 for Atk & Spd.

 

Funfact Edit: +Def\-Atk Fury 3 Hp-seal Odin dies from 0 non-L&D units, so long as he has +4 to Spd\Def\Res.

Edited April 14, 2017 by DehNutCase

[ILikeKirbys]

@mcsilas A few things on Subaki:

1) -DEF Subaki can survive a hit from Takumi at full HP?

2) Swordbreaker, eh? Well, out of all the units Swordbreaker lets Subaki kill that he wouldn't already, I don't think Subaki has anything to fear from any of them except maybe Eldigan and Hana. Going down the list...
Lon'qu can't even scratch Subaki unless he's +ATK (and even then he only does like 2 damage). Not scary at all, and I think Subaki murders him after he deals his tiny scratch damage.
I don't think Fir can hurt Subaki period unless she has Glacies ready. So I'd just have to kill her before she can get it charged, which probably isn't that hard. Doubt she could even kill Subaki with a Glacies hit, so there's nothing to fear here.
Draug, Eldigan and Hana don't do much damage to Subaki either unless they have a Special proc on him. Subaki can't do much damage to Draug and Eldigan in return, but the only thing stopping him from one-rounding Hana is his inability to double her.
Hinata... I'm not sure Subaki has anything to worry about here unless Hinata's not running the Ruby Sword. Is Hinata gonna be running the Ruby Sword?
And of these units, Lon'qu, Fir, Hinata and Hana can be safely handled by Subaki (especially Hana, if she has Life and Death tanking her DEF), while I can probably have someone else soften up Draug and Eldigan (Bunny Camilla with Gronnblade and Hone Fliers might work, since both have not-so-great RES). Thanks for your suggestion, I wouldn't have considered Swordbreaker period since I kinda forgot about it, but I don't see any need for Swordbreaker on Subaki.

3) Although, I'm starting to rethink Desperation on Subaki. It might not help that much, since Subaki's a tank with wings anyway, so maybe Renewal would be a better option? I'm back to not really being too sure what to put here, I guess Swordbreaker might work... although maybe Lancebreaker could too? Now I've got options, and I dunno what to do with them.

4) Also starting to rethink using Subaki on my flier team, since I already have Hinoka covering Blue there (and I need her, since she has Hone Fliers and Bunny Camilla's gonna need that to nuke with Gronnblade, plus I'm sure Palla and either Cherche or Beruka will appreciate the +6 ATK/SPD buffs) so he'd be kinda redundant (I feel like I'll need a physical Green to work with Bunny Camilla). And besides, my Subaki's starting to seem like a good flying tank in general, so I could see myself running him on a non-flier team now. Makes my choice for the C Skill slot easier, since he'll never need a Fliers buff. Now to decide between Threaten DEF and Threaten ATK...

5) Subaki can survive fighting Cherche and Fae with the Killer Lance equipped? Minerva I guess I could see, but Cherche has like the highest ATK in the game, and Fae is targeting Subaki's not-so-hot RES, so I'm kinda surprised that he can survive combat with them. Guess that answers one dilemma I had...
5.5) I think I'll give Subaki the Killer Lance+ then. Bonfire too, for the added damage, unless you think something else might work better?

6) No seriously, -DEF Subaki can survive a hit from Takumi at full HP? I would've assumed that Subaki dies if Takumi glances in his general direction, so this is kinda surprising.

7) Definitely going with Swift Sparrow then, unless I decide that Faye needs it more when I pull her.

Thanks for your help, mate!

And now, the spoiler talk (@DehNutCase as well):

Spoiler

Selena, eh? I could see... a +ATK (since -3 ATK wouldn't even completely wipe out Selena's ATK boon, since it's a +4)/-HP (like you said NutCase, we can fix Selena's HP bane with a Sacred Seal) taking advantage of the +5 DEF to tank harder. She'd probably need the Ruby Sword or Wo Dao to work with this; Ruby Sword keeps Selena's Triangle Adept (if Fortress DEF ends up an A Slot skill like I'm expecting it to) to let her fight Greens pretty well, while Wo Dao gives Selena some more power when she procs a skill, which she'll need since Fortress DEF is sapping some of her ATK.
Of course, I don't know much about Selena (I never used her), so I dunno if this would actually work, and I'm falling asleep typing this so I dunno at this point, but hey, it's a thought.

And yeah, maybe this is a bit early to speculate about Skills that'll be on tomorrow's banner, but that's right around the corner, so why not get a head start?

G'night, folks!

[Kaden]

Hmm, messing around with the calculator thingie to see what I could and should do with my +Atk, -Res Oboro. Also was inspired by @DehNutCase about the usage of X Stat +3 A-slot skills, so I decided to check this build:

Spoiler

 

4* Oboro, +Atk, -Res

Base stats: 37 HP, 33 Atk, 24 Spd, 33 Def, 19 Res

Weapon: Killer Lance or Silver Lance (300 SP)

Support: Rally Defense (Default)

Special: Bonfire (450 SP)

A-Slot: Def +3 (315 SP)

B-Slot: Quick Riposte 2 (270 SP) or 3 if possible (630 SP)

C-Slot: Threaten Res (Default), but perhaps Threaten Atk 3 or Def 3 (525 SP)

Oboro's Default Skill cost: 430 (4*) or 630 (5* without Heavy Lance+).

Inherited Skills cost: 1335 (QR2, default C-slot), 1860 (QR2, new C-slot), 1695 (QR3, default C-slot), or 2220 (QR3, new C-slot). Add 450 SP if you can get a + Lance.

 

So, the goal is survival and as a physical tank -- Res bane means she pretty much dies to any magic attacker. Not sure, but +Atk, -Res might be her one of her best boon/bane.

With a Killer Lance and everyone having +Attack and Fury 3 -- I don't know, just copying what DehNutCase did with Setsuna --, she has 30 wins, 36 losses, and 49 draws. If she were a 5* with a Killer Lance+, then 40 W, 24 L, and 51 D.

4* with a Silver Lance gets 26 W, 36 L, 53 D and 5* with Silver Lance+ gets 42 W, 25 L, and 48 D.

Both look pretty solid. Atk +3 results in less draws and more losses with both weapons with Silver Lance+ also losing 2 wins because of Atk +3, but it makes having a +Def, -Res Oboro work with both builds. Atk Def +2 works with +Atk / +Def, -Res Oboro as well. T-Adept and Sapphire Lance hurts her a bit as she has similar wins: 39 with Def +3 or 41 with Atk +3, but ends up with 29 or 32 losses, respectively.

Of course, Fury 3 on her works as well with Killer Lance+ having 48 W, 15 L, and 52 D. Life & Death 3 despite having her be a defensive unit also works.

Eh, I don't know, first time doing this. The Silver Lance+ variant looks good on paper, but maybe Killer Lance+ can work better in practice. There's also the problem that as I don't care much for arena, I can't think of or consider issues other than variance of units with this build related to arena. In terms of PvE and GHB, it might be more worth it to have Killer Lance to proc Bonfire if you really need to do a ton of damage against a unit. Still, not so sure. That said, feedback and critique would help me understand more about doing builds. Also, wow, that's expensive. Time to employ that use a duplicate unit to inherit skills and merge with main Oboro. I'd rather use main Oboro's remaining 500-ish SP for a + Lance if I can somehow get one.

Edit: Since she's on the topic, @DehNutCase, what do you think of a +Def, -HP Selena? I want to think up of a build for her, but I'm not sure. Oboro's the guinea pig for feedback. :p

Edited April 14, 2017 by Kaden

[BANRYU]

Wow. Odin the tank eh, heh.

...wait so -Atk is actually a good bane for Odin to have? Man I'll have to check the several -Atk Odins I have to see if any of them are Def+...

@ILikeKirbys, seconding Killer Bonfire for Subaki; Sapphire works fine if you can't/don't want to, but with his crazy speed and defense, can you imagine the sheer nonsense of that Bonfire's damage output? as long as he doubles he's activating once per round guaranteed, and (I know the 'blow' skills are kinda gimmicky but) toss Armored Blow or something on top of that... That's 30 damage per activation, just 3 short of what it'd be with neutral Def. (Alternatively, Bunny Chrom's Atk/Def+2 skill yields the same results and allows Subaki to function on enemy phase as well)

Your post came up while I was writing this one but to answer your question, yes, Subaki just mentioned survives, but needs AB3 or AtkDef+2 in order to a) survive Atk+ Takumi and b) ORKO. Cannot ORKO Def+ or Spd+ Takumi.

EDIT: Also yeah Subaki can live against Brave Axe+ Cherche but not if she initiates. Can also live against Atk+ Fae.

Edited April 14, 2017 by BANRYU

[mcsilas]

@ILikeKirbys 

Calcs vs neutral Takumi

•  

Spoiler

 

• Subaki gains 4 attack by initiating combat [Swift Sparrow 2].
• Subaki gains 4 speed by initiating combat [Swift Sparrow 2].
• Subaki attacks. 16 damage dealt. 
  Takumi HP: 40 → 24
• Takumi counter-attacks, ignoring distance [Close Counter]. Effectiveness against Flying boosts attack by 50% [Fujin Yumi]. 37 damage dealt. 
  Subaki HP: 40 → 3
• Subaki makes a follow-up attack. Damage boosted by 50% of defense [Bonfire]. 32 damage dealt. 
  Takumi HP: 24 → 0

 

 

Calcs vs +Atk Cherche with Killer Axe+ (Subaki's turn)

 

• Spoiler

   

  • Subaki gains 4 attack by initiating combat [Swift Sparrow 2].
  • Subaki gains 4 speed by initiating combat [Swift Sparrow 2].
  • Subaki attacks. Triangle disadvantage reduces attack by 20%. 1 damage dealt. 
    Cherche HP: 46 → 45
  • Cherche counter-attacks. Triangle advantage boosts attack by 20%. 30 damage dealt. 
    Subaki HP: 40 → 10
  • Subaki makes a follow-up attack. Triangle disadvantage reduces attack by 20%. Damage boosted by 50% of defense [Bonfire]. 17 damage dealt. 
    Cherche HP: 45 → 28

   

Calcs vs neutral Fae

 

Spoiler

 

• Subaki gains 4 attack by initiating combat [Swift Sparrow 2].
• Subaki gains 4 speed by initiating combat [Swift Sparrow 2].
• Subaki attacks. Triangle disadvantage reduces attack by 20%. 8 damage dealt. 
  Fae HP: 46 → 38
• Fae counter-attacks. Triangle advantage boosts attack by 20%. 33 damage dealt. 
  Subaki HP: 40 → 7
• Subaki makes a follow-up attack. Triangle disadvantage reduces attack by 20%. Damage boosted by 50% of defense [Bonfire]. 24 damage dealt. 
  Fae HP: 38 → 14

 

But yeah Renewal seems like a good B slot skill instead if you don't care about the speedy swordies.

[DehNutCase]

5 minutes ago, BANRYU said:

Wow. Odin the tank eh, heh.

...wait so -Atk is actually a good bane for Odin to have? Man I'll have to check the several -Atk Odins I have to see if any of them are Def+...

@ILikeKirbys, seconding Killer Bonfire for Subaki; Sapphire works fine if you can't/don't want to, but with his crazy speed and defense, can you imagine the sheer nonsense of that Bonfire's damage output? as long as he doubles he's activating once per round guaranteed, and (I know the 'blow' skills are kinda gimmicky but) toss Armored Blow or something on top of that... That's 30 damage per activation, just 3 short of what it'd be with neutral Def. (Alternatively, Bunny Chrom's Atk/Def+2 skill yields the same results and allows Subaki to function on enemy phase as well)

Your post came up while I was writing this one but to answer your question, yes, Subaki with either of the skills I just mentioned survives and ORKOs neutral Takumi on offense

-Atk is terrible. It was mostly a place-holder since every other stat means Odin would die to something.

Of course, Odin's base ATK (22) is already the 2nd lowest in the game (Azama is lowest @ 21), so, while it's possible for his attack to get worse, it's very unlikely. If you needed a unit that would live through absolutely everything without L&D, though, Odin can do it (with 1 buff each to Spd, Def, and Res.)

 

Personally, I think if you were looking to make a unit tank, you can probably ignore the color they're weak to (your team should have a color strong to that color, or at least someone who can easily cover the color).

Edited April 14, 2017 by DehNutCase

[BANRYU]

5 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

-Atk is terrible. It was mostly a place-holder since every other stat means Odin would die to something.

Of course, Odin's base ATK (22) is already the 2nd lowest in the game (Azama is lowest @ 21), so, while it's possible for his attack to get worse, it's very unlikely. If you needed a unit that would live through absolutely everything without L&D, though, Odin can do it.

 

Personally, if you were looking to make a unit tank, you can probably ignore the color they're weak to (your team should have a color strong to that color, or at least someone who can easily cover the color).

Oh. Gee whiz. 

Man few things are harder to work around than a poor Atk stat (poor Odin and Henry). At least Selena has the Wo Dao to make up for her lackluster offense...

 

@ Subaki discussion whoops yeah it looks like Swift Sparrow actually raises Bonfire's damage output by 1 compared to Armored Blow or AtkDef+2, whoops. He'll still die to Atk+ Takumi's counterattack without them, though x3x and still can't beat Def+ Takumi either way unfortunately. 

 

EDIT: AHH @mcsilas sorry dude I didn't acknowledge your response with Jakob and whatnot Dx Yeah that's a little surprising, I thought Jakob was one of the bulkier dagger units... Guess I didn't pay that much attention to them .3. I'm glad that Gaius has a cool niche with that, though! Dude is ranked way lower in the tier list than he deserves IMO

Edited April 14, 2017 by BANRYU

[DehNutCase]

8 minutes ago, BANRYU said:

Oh. Gee whiz. 

Man few things are harder to work around than a poor Atk stat (poor Odin and Henry). At least Selena has the Wo Dao to make up for her lackluster offense...

Eh, personally I would've liked Odin a lot if he dumped attack even more. Like, if he dumped 4 more atk down to 18, and grabbed 4 more Def to 29, he'd be an amazing defensive pivot. Use a brave-lance Cordelia or something similar with drag-back, have her 1RKO someone, move back a square, and Odin can reposition her out, doing some minor chip to any unit that can even reach him. He won't be sweeping teams, but he'd make deathless runs alot easier just by existing.

 

And Henry & Odin do have the _Blade tomes, but infantry are very hard to buff properly unless we end up with a Rally Spectrum on Morgan.

Edited April 14, 2017 by DehNutCase

[ILikeKirbys]

4 minutes ago, BANRYU said:

Wow. Odin the tank eh, heh.

...wait so -Atk is actually a good bane for Odin to have? Man I'll have to check the several -Atk Odins I have to see if any of them are Def+...

@ILikeKirbys, seconding Killer Bonfire for Subaki; Sapphire works fine if you can't/don't want to, but with his crazy speed and defense, can you imagine the sheer nonsense of that Bonfire's damage output? as long as he doubles he's activating once per round guaranteed, and (I know the 'blow' skills are kinda gimmicky but) toss Armored Blow or something on top of that... That's 30 damage per activation, just 3 short of what it'd be with neutral Def. (Alternatively, Bunny Chrom's Atk/Def+2 skill yields the same results and allows Subaki to function on enemy phase as well)

Your post came up while I was writing this one but to answer your question, yes, Subaki with either of the skills I just mentioned survives and ORKOs neutral Takumi on offense

I saw this when I was about to go to sleep, decided to respond now.

My Subaki is -DEF, so running the calc now... Holy crap, he actually does barely ORKO non-+DEF/+SPD Takumi if he's attacking with Armored Blow. Huh.

Maybe I'll save Swift Sparrow for now, then.

Still, now I'm glad I pulled a 5-Star Peri that I don't care for way back in February, since now I have a Killer Lance+ I can pluck off of her (and I have 4-Star Peri if I decide that I want her in the future).

And then @mcsilas comes in with calcs when I'm just about to post this, haha. Good to know I can run Swift Sparrow Subaki and still barely kill Takumi (and this would let me kill +SPD Takumi too, I think Swift Sparrow lets Subaki double +SPD Takumi), but I think I'll still leave it alone for the moment. I'm not about to put anything on Subaki just yet.
Good to know Subaki can safely take on Fae and Cherche once tho. That'll most likely come in handy.
And maybe I'll go Renewal, I'll decide that later when I'm done leveling Subaki (and Hinoka, since I've been switching off between the two of them for the last couple of days) and get an extra Fae to pluck Renewal off of.

Thanks, mates. And g'night! (for real this time)

[MaskedAmpharos]

@Kaden I'm personally a fan of Oboro with Killer Lance+, Bonfire, and Quick Riposte.

With Killer Lance and QR, Oboro can get a Bonfire proc every round of combat, which adds a lot to her damage output. 

Fury is the optimal A-slot, but both Atk +3 and Def +3 work fine. 

She might even be optimal with the new Fortress Def skill coming this next banner (Def +5, Atk -3). 

Edited April 14, 2017 by MaskedAmpharos

[mcsilas]

@BANRYU I think what makes Jakob slightly bulkier normally is Def+3 and Renewal. I think it's because the QR set is enemy phase based and his 31 Speed doesn't work out for him in these case. I'm actually not sure what Jakob could do in general now to be honest, maybe I'll think of something in a future project.

Regarding Odin, I've been testing out calcs for +Attack/-Def Odin with Death Blow/Lancebreaker/Moonbow/Blarblade+. As long as I can get the +4 attack up (Olivia) and a +4 Speed from someone with Hone Speed, he can at least do damage on the player phase. Testing it out with Lancebreaker, he wins against 77 units, has 0 losses and 36 draws. Sacred Skill Attack+1 bumps that up to 79 units. (If he's -Res he loses against 1 person, Female Robin)

But yeah he does need a lot of support, so he needs to be played carefully and be bunched up with allies. Also Blarblade lowering cooldown kind of sucks