spoilers Minor fan theory (Birthright/Revelation spoilers)

[Mitatsu]

It's not something significant but I have this theory coming out of my mind.

Short version:

Spoiler

The end of Chapter 15 of Birthright (Wolfskin Peak) occurred at the time the pass to Valla in the Bottomless Canyon closed, and the landslide occurred because there was an entrance to Valla opening at the Wolfskin Peak.

Long version:

Spoiler

As mentioned in Revelation Chapter 7, “once every few decades, the skies above Nohr and Hoshido will reverse”, and that is when the entrance to Valla closes in the Bottomless Canyon.

In Chapter 15, after the crew killed the wolfskins, this dialogue occurs:

Ryoma: ... Look, Avatar. Can you see the sun breaking over the horizon?

Avatar: Yes...I suppose I can.

Ryoma: They say the sun never shines in Nohr, but we can see that that's not true. Perhaps it's small comfort, but I take this as a good omen.

Avatar: It is warm here. The same kind of warmth I felt walking the streets of Hoshido.

It kind of hints that the skies above Nohr and Hoshido did switch places at that moment, as Corrin even feels like it is the same kind of warmth they felt walking the streets of Hoshido.

Since Azura only acquired the knowledge of pathways to Valla from her mom, what she was clueless about could be that when the main entrance to Valla closes, there is an entrance opened somewhere else. Perhaps her mom did not know that, either. In Chapter 15, as the main entrance closes, the new one was opened at the bottom of the Wolfskin Peak which caused a landslide.

It explains why even if Kaze fell from the cliff in Chapter 15 (without an A-support with Corrin) he would not appear in the beginning cutscene in Endgame to meet with Corrin, where Corrin met their dead siblings and Flora. Instead of dying he just ended up in Valla.

Here I’m assuming that the scene is not Corrin’s illusion but something that happened for real. It makes sense since Corrin did acquire the power from the Fujin Yumi that was handed to them in this cutscene's Conquest counterpart. There is another person, Gunter, who was believed to be dead throughout the Birthright path, but did not appear in that cutscene for similar reasons. As we know Gunter did not die falling to the Bottomless Canyon. He (along with Kaze if he did not get the A-support) was probably possessed or stuck in Valla because Azura did not pay a visit there during Birthright.

BONUS (Paralogue 6/Birthright spoilers):

Spoiler

You cannot recruit Midori until Kaze survives Chapter 15 in Birthright because the paralogue event in which you could recruit her takes place after Chapter 15 in the main story’s timeline. Midori could be born before that right after the S-support just like any other kid, but if her dad was not there to meet her up and protect her at the beginning of the paralogue event, she would just end up killed by the bandits she confronted. You cannot recruit her if she’s dead.

 

Edited April 10, 2017 by Mitatsu
Edited to add spoiler filters

[Hero_Lucina]

Wow... Now everything just became so clear...

[Ertrick36]

Okay...

Firstly, shouldn't this be tagged as spoilers, since you mention Valla and the skies changing (among other spoilery things) in the OP?  Or have we gone passed the threshold for needing to tag spoilers for this game?  I just mentioned it because I still see some people around here who say it's their first time playing, or that they've only played through one or two paths...  But then again, the same happens with the older games as well, so I don't know.

Secondly, I honestly didn't even consider any of this.  It all definitely seems to make sense, and perhaps the writers intentionally put these hints in.  And you hardly spend much time in Hoshido after C 15, so you hardly get to witness the Nohrian skies over Hoshido.  Though in the end cutscene, you see that Hoshido actually has blue skies; perhaps by defeating Garon, you destroyed whatever was causing half the continent to be covered in dark, clouded skies?

Thirdly, that Midori theory is really freakin' sad.  Also would suggest that whoever was Kaze's wife just doesn't give a damn (or maybe they just don't have the same scouting abilities that Kaze does; but we all know that careless parenting is an unspoken theme in Fates).

Lastly, I have to wonder how exactly people come under Anankos's possession, and if our little stone-faced antagonist retains that power when the skies change/Garon dies.  We know that Takumi, Garon, and Gunter come under his possession; Takumi and Garon's possessions are a lot more prominent, while Gunter's is very subtle (though ironically, his betrayal could be seen from a mile away due to certain foreshadowing elements).  What would happen to Kaze?  Would he even get possessed, or simply perish in Valla?  If he did get possessed, would it be as obvious as Edge-kumi, or would it be like Gunter?

At that point in the story, Anankos might not even see a point in possessing anyone.  But what if he possessed Kaze and put him back in the main continent as a sort of "seed"?  Like, he knows Garon might fail, so Kaze is sort of a backup plan to gradually brew up a new conflict between the nations; maybe he even brings Gunter back into the fold to further that goal.  The kicker here is because Azura is gone (and Shigure might not exist/know the entire song), they'd have no real way of knowing that Kaze or Gunter were possessed or a way to combat the possessions.  In Revelation, they made it a point to have Anankos explicitly state that he gave Garon a lot of his power so as to suggest that the world isn't entirely screwed if you choose either of the main paths (his limited power means very limited influence after Garon dies), but screwing Kaze over in BR could be the key to re-fucking the continent.

Spoiler

Also, Azura never sings her song for Gunter, and he spends an even longer time there in CQ, which means he might be under a more controlled possession.  Though because Gunter's so old, he might die before he can affect anything enough to screw over the continent; his betrayal in Revelation worked because it all happened over a relatively short period of time, but bringing two freshly peaceful nations to war again would require a lot of time.  Time that Gunter does not have unless he's really lucky.

 

[grandjackal]

Edited now that spoiling is being stressed.

I think entering Anankos's fold is pretty simple.

All it takes is for you to die. Lets go through them step by step.

Gunter: You literally see him in Valla, twice, which is clearly the realm of the dead. You even see the likes of the Hoshidan king and queen there, and at least the king has no reason to even be there. The guy falls into a canyon, you see it with your own eyes.

Scarlet: Should be the most obvious clue to it. You see her get killed, and then later find her as an enemy.

Azura's mother and the Hoshidan queen: Both dead, one you see die. Neither of them would have any real reason to serve Anankos.

Takumi: I want to note the two times you encounter him on either conquest or birthright is after the report that Takumi and Ryoma went missing at the bottomless canyon. One could assume that A. Takumi fell into the canyon during the fight, or B. Takumi threw himself in. Takumi has way too high of expectations for himself, pessimistic. distrusts everyone, driven mostly by hate, and blames himself for his mother's death (also, in a state of grief). Now the battle is on, and the time he has to prove himself believes he may have gotten Ryoma killed too? I could see him doing it. 

Garron: It could just be because he's old, but his dragon form looks zombie-like. His wings are missing membranes, and look like bone is showing. Secondly though, after you kill him in Birthright, he mentions that at "some moment, he became something else" without mentioning what that moment was. Seeing as he's old and had two lovers in a row die (one of which the story implies he actually cared about), old man could have just died of a broken heart or some such. 

But, It also leaves a question about Azura herself. She learned of Valla, yet knows the song that heals you of his influence. How is that possible? Considering your options of meeting him are apparently die or jump off a cliff, it would require suicidal tendencies. I mean, the first cutscene of the game is her throwing herself into a pond, and the menu screen is her broken pendent sinking to the bottom while the world's saddest piano twinkles away. We know for a fact she's been to Valla, because she's cursed. You only get that by entering Valla. So how could she have gone to Valla alive, or how did she get out while breaking his influence? Sung to herself before it could occur? Someone else sang it? Who would it have been? Arete would be under his complete control at that point, so it couldn't have been her.

That being said, about the topic at hand. Didn't Iago claim he rigged the area with explosives? I mean, you could be right and Iago is taking credit for something he didn't do (sounds like him), but I remember him specifically stating that.

Edited April 9, 2017 by grandjackal
Adding spoiler protection

[Mitatsu]

8 hours ago, Ertrick36 said:

Okay...

Firstly, shouldn't this be tagged as spoilers, since you mention Valla and the skies changing (among other spoilery things) in the OP?  Or have we gone passed the threshold for needing to tag spoilers for this game?  I just mentioned it because I still see some people around here who say it's their first time playing, or that they've only played through one or two paths...  But then again, the same happens with the older games as well, so I don't know.

Secondly, I honestly didn't even consider any of this.  It all definitely seems to make sense, and perhaps the writers intentionally put these hints in.  And you hardly spend much time in Hoshido after C 15, so you hardly get to witness the Nohrian skies over Hoshido.  Though in the end cutscene, you see that Hoshido actually has blue skies; perhaps by defeating Garon, you destroyed whatever was causing half the continent to be covered in dark, clouded skies?

Thirdly, that Midori theory is really freakin' sad.  Also would suggest that whoever was Kaze's wife just doesn't give a damn (or maybe they just don't have the same scouting abilities that Kaze does; but we all know that careless parenting is an unspoken theme in Fates).

Lastly, I have to wonder how exactly people come under Anankos's possession, and if our little stone-faced antagonist retains that power when the skies change/Garon dies.  We know that Takumi, Garon, and Gunter come under his possession; Takumi and Garon's possessions are a lot more prominent, while Gunter's is very subtle (though ironically, his betrayal could be seen from a mile away due to certain foreshadowing elements).  What would happen to Kaze?  Would he even get possessed, or simply perish in Valla?  If he did get possessed, would it be as obvious as Edge-kumi, or would it be like Gunter?

At that point in the story, Anankos might not even see a point in possessing anyone.  But what if he possessed Kaze and put him back in the main continent as a sort of "seed"?  Like, he knows Garon might fail, so Kaze is sort of a backup plan to gradually brew up a new conflict between the nations; maybe he even brings Gunter back into the fold to further that goal.  The kicker here is because Azura is gone (and Shigure might not exist/know the entire song), they'd have no real way of knowing that Kaze or Gunter were possessed or a way to combat the possessions.  In Revelation, they made it a point to have Anankos explicitly state that he gave Garon a lot of his power so as to suggest that the world isn't entirely screwed if you choose either of the main paths (his limited power means very limited influence after Garon dies), but screwing Kaze over in BR could be the key to re-fucking the continent.

  Reveal hidden contents

Also, Azura never sings her song for Gunter, and he spends an even longer time there in CQ, which means he might be under a more controlled possession.  Though because Gunter's so old, he might die before he can affect anything enough to screw over the continent; his betrayal in Revelation worked because it all happened over a relatively short period of time, but bringing two freshly peaceful nations to war again would require a lot of time.  Time that Gunter does not have unless he's really lucky.

 

Yeah I should have added the spoiler alert. I was thinking the game is one year old so I should not take it as a big deal. I had added the spoiler tag to the thread.

Regarding how Anankos's possession/minion conversion works the best way I can summarize that is "as he wishes" (or "as plot demands").

Spoiler

People could be like edge-kumi (Takumi in both routes, Scarlet) or be sane and deceiving like Mikoto (with or without their past memories, e.g. Mikoto and Arete, respectively), or become whatever the parents become in the Heir of Fates, regardless of whether they're dead. They can even turn into slime monsters and be granted Anankos's power I suppose? The only thing I cannot make sense of is how Birthright!Vallite/Anankos!Takumi was able to inform Iago about the crew's whereabouts? It could not have been Iago teleporting to Takumi since if he knew where they are he wouldn't need to be told. So does Takumi wake up at night as a Vallite or Anankos himself, and teleport to Iago without anyone noticing? Or can Anankos get access to someone's memory if they're under his control so that he can inform Iago? It would require Iago to actively seek Anankos for assistance, which sounds oddly OOC for Iago. Or it is Anankos who comes up with his plan but doesn't receive any credit.

 

Edited April 10, 2017 by Mitatsu

[twistedxgrace]

Very interesting theory that actually makes a lot of sense!

Also

2 hours ago, grandjackal said:

Edited now that spoiling is being stressed.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

I think entering Anankos's fold is pretty simple.

All it takes is for you to die. Lets go through them step by step.

Gunter: You literally see him in Valla, twice, which is clearly the realm of the dead. You even see the likes of the Hoshidan king and queen there, and at least the king has no reason to even be there. The guy falls into a canyon, you see it with your own eyes.

Scarlet: Should be the most obvious clue to it. You see her get killed, and then later find her as an enemy.

Azura's mother and the Hoshidan queen: Both dead, one you see die. Neither of them would have any real reason to serve Anankos.

Takumi: I want to note the two times you encounter him on either conquest or birthright is after the report that Takumi and Ryoma went missing at the bottomless canyon. One could assume that A. Takumi fell into the canyon during the fight, or B. Takumi threw himself in. Takumi has way too high of expectations for himself, pessimistic. distrusts everyone, driven mostly by hate, and blames himself for his mother's death (also, in a state of grief). Now the battle is on, and the time he has to prove himself believes he may have gotten Ryoma killed too? I could see him doing it. 

Garron: It could just be because he's old, but his dragon form looks zombie-like. His wings are missing membranes, and look like bone is showing. Secondly though, after you kill him in Birthright, he mentions that at "some moment, he became something else" without mentioning what that moment was. Seeing as he's old and had two lovers in a row die (one of which the story implies he actually cared about), old man could have just died of a broken heart or some such. 

But, It also leaves a question about Azura herself. She learned of Valla, yet knows the song that heals you of his influence. How is that possible? Considering your options of meeting him are apparently die or jump off a cliff, it would require suicidal tendencies. I mean, the first cutscene of the game is her throwing herself into a pond, and the menu screen is her broken pendent sinking to the bottom while the world's saddest piano twinkles away. We know for a fact she's been to Valla, because she's cursed. You only get that by entering Valla. So how could she have gone to Valla alive, or how did she get out while breaking his influence? Sung to herself before it could occur? Someone else sang it? Who would it have been? Arete would be under his complete control at that point, so it couldn't have been her.

That being said, about the topic at hand. Didn't Iago claim he rigged the area with explosives? I mean, you could be right and Iago is taking credit for something he didn't do (sounds like him), but I remember him specifically stating that.

 

Spoiler

I don't think Valla acts as an afterlife for the dead for everyone, but only those killed by something/one related to Valla and Anankos. Think about it. The zombie characters you fight in Revelation include Arete, Scarlet, Mikoto, and Sumeragi. Arete died from speaking of Valla, which triggered that fatal curse. Sumeragi was killed by Garon, who was most likely no longer the real Garon at that point. Mikoto was killed by Vallite!Sumeragi. Scarlet literally dies on the way to Valla thanks to possessed!Gunter. Prior to chapter 18 of Revelation, Izana and the Rainbow Sage die, and you kill Hans and Iago. Why don't you encounter zombie incarnations of them in Valla? Because it wasn't something/one Vallite-related that killed them.

Azura and the avatar are able to take more paths to Valla (water in addition to the Bottomless Canyon) because of their Vallite heritage (I like to think water is how the invisible puppets of Anankos get to other places as well, as suggested by Birthright chapter 11, making them honorary Vallites upon death). Arete taught Azura of Valla and the song, so Azura can sing it herself as she still lives. The pendant and song's power combo is what gives a separate curse to Azura that causes her to suffer (and eventually die in Birthright and Conquest) in return. In Heirs of Fate, she is said to have sacrificed herself by singing to Anankos, She appears to the children as a spirit, but not an evil puppet of Anankos like the dads shown part 6. That's because all of the other parents in that world actually died to Anankos, while Azura used all her power to sing to Anankos to protect Shigure. The curse cost her her life. If Shigure is born in the main campaign, Azura tells him in their supports that when she dies and the war is over, to throw her pendant away in the ocean. It is unknown if he listens to her here, but he does not in Heirs of Fate, at least not until Anankos is defeated. Either way, both the end card of Heirs of Fate and the title screen of Fates itself depict the pendant at the very bottom of an area with water. 

With this forum topic's theory in mind, it's hard to say whether or not Kaze actually dies and becomes a puppet or Anankos or if he just falls to the bottom like Gunter, because we don't visit Valla at all in Birthright.

 

[Mitatsu]

3 hours ago, grandjackal said:

Edited now that spoiling is being stressed.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

I think entering Anankos's fold is pretty simple.

All it takes is for you to die. Lets go through them step by step.

Gunter: You literally see him in Valla, twice, which is clearly the realm of the dead. You even see the likes of the Hoshidan king and queen there, and at least the king has no reason to even be there. The guy falls into a canyon, you see it with your own eyes.

Scarlet: Should be the most obvious clue to it. You see her get killed, and then later find her as an enemy.

Azura's mother and the Hoshidan queen: Both dead, one you see die. Neither of them would have any real reason to serve Anankos.

Takumi: I want to note the two times you encounter him on either conquest or birthright is after the report that Takumi and Ryoma went missing at the bottomless canyon. One could assume that A. Takumi fell into the canyon during the fight, or B. Takumi threw himself in. Takumi has way too high of expectations for himself, pessimistic. distrusts everyone, driven mostly by hate, and blames himself for his mother's death (also, in a state of grief). Now the battle is on, and the time he has to prove himself believes he may have gotten Ryoma killed too? I could see him doing it. 

Garron: It could just be because he's old, but his dragon form looks zombie-like. His wings are missing membranes, and look like bone is showing. Secondly though, after you kill him in Birthright, he mentions that at "some moment, he became something else" without mentioning what that moment was. Seeing as he's old and had two lovers in a row die (one of which the story implies he actually cared about), old man could have just died of a broken heart or some such. 

But, It also leaves a question about Azura herself. She learned of Valla, yet knows the song that heals you of his influence. How is that possible? Considering your options of meeting him are apparently die or jump off a cliff, it would require suicidal tendencies. I mean, the first cutscene of the game is her throwing herself into a pond, and the menu screen is her broken pendent sinking to the bottom while the world's saddest piano twinkles away. We know for a fact she's been to Valla, because she's cursed. You only get that by entering Valla. So how could she have gone to Valla alive, or how did she get out while breaking his influence? Sung to herself before it could occur? Someone else sang it? Who would it have been? Arete would be under his complete control at that point, so it couldn't have been her.

That being said, about the topic at hand. Didn't Iago claim he rigged the area with explosives? I mean, you could be right and Iago is taking credit for something he didn't do (sounds like him), but I remember him specifically stating that.

 

Spoiler

Imo the "explosives" mentioned by Garon is the one used to kill the wolfskins in order to frame Corrin.

Though I'm always trying to make sense of the plot, from the scriptwriter's point of view the landslide plot and the whole "A-support Kaze or he dies" thing could be because "there needs to be a reasonable situation to let the players know that Kaze has as good reasons as Silas does to follow the player regardless of which path they choose", though it doesn't really matter since it's Birthright and it's just natural for him to join us. It would make more sense if they force this plot in Conquest since Imo without those support dialogues Kaze looks like a nonsense backstabber who betrays his native country (and personally leads the enemies to the Rainbow Sage) on the frontlines or someone like Birthright!Zola with a more good-looking face.

 

[grandjackal]

42 minutes ago, twistedxgrace said:

Very interesting theory that actually makes a lot of sense!

Also

  Hide contents

I don't think Valla acts as an afterlife for the dead for everyone, but only those killed by something/one related to Valla and Anankos. Think about it. The zombie characters you fight in Revelation include Arete, Scarlet, Mikoto, and Sumeragi. Arete died from speaking of Valla, which triggered that fatal curse. Sumeragi was killed by Garon, who was most likely no longer the real Garon at that point. Mikoto was killed by Vallite!Sumeragi. Scarlet literally dies on the way to Valla thanks to possessed!Gunter. Prior to chapter 18 of Revelation, Izana and the Rainbow Sage die, and you kill Hans and Iago. Why don't you encounter zombie incarnations of them in Valla? Because it wasn't something/one Vallite-related that killed them.

Azura and the avatar are able to take more paths to Valla (water in addition to the Bottomless Canyon) because of their Vallite heritage (I like to think water is how the invisible puppets of Anankos get to other places as well, as suggested by Birthright chapter 11, making them honorary Vallites upon death). Arete taught Azura of Valla and the song, so Azura can sing it herself as she still lives. The pendant and song's power combo is what gives a separate curse to Azura that causes her to suffer (and eventually die in Birthright and Conquest) in return. In Heirs of Fate, she is said to have sacrificed herself by singing to Anankos, She appears to the children as a spirit, but not an evil puppet of Anankos like the dads shown part 6. That's because all of the other parents in that world actually died to Anankos, while Azura used all her power to sing to Anankos to protect Shigure. The curse cost her her life. If Shigure is born in the main campaign, Azura tells him in their supports that when she dies and the war is over, to throw her pendant away in the ocean. It is unknown if he listens to her here, but he does not in Heirs of Fate, at least not until Anankos is defeated. Either way, both the end card of Heirs of Fate and the title screen of Fates itself depict the pendant at the very bottom of an area with water. 

With this forum topic's theory in mind, it's hard to say whether or not Kaze actually dies and becomes a puppet or Anankos or if he just falls to the bottom like Gunter, because we don't visit Valla at all in Birthright.

 

Doesn't explain Takumi, and I could claim the Rainbow Sage is due to being a dragon god. Unsure if Izana can claim the same. I recall Izumo being the land of the gods, and gods = dragons in Fire Emblem, but my memory is a foggy thing.

Goddammit, do I really have to take the kids seriously? I actually remember when this game was first getting revealed and we were getting info. I am 90% certain it was mentioned the children were not canon, but the feature was only returning because it was riding the wave of Awakening. I only really viewed them as more insight to the father's character because of it. I haven't played the DLC.

9 minutes ago, Mitatsu said:

  Hide contents

Imo the "explosives" mentioned by Garon is the one used to kill the wolfskins in order to frame Corrin.

Though I'm always trying to make sense of the plot, from the scriptwriter's point of view the landslide plot and the whole "A-support Kaze or he dies" thing could be because "there needs to be a reasonable situation to let the players know that Kaze has as good reasons as Silas does to follow the player regardless of which path they choose", though it doesn't really matter since it's Birthright and it's just natural for him to join us. It would make more sense if they force this plot in Conquest since Imo without those support dialogues Kaze looks like a nonsense backstabber who betrays his native country (and personally leads the enemies to the Rainbow Sage) on the frontlines or someone like Birthright!Zola with a more good-looking face.

 

Ah, so it was Garon then? Could have been Anankos machinations then.

As for the reason, I'm trying to think of a way to put it. Imagine trying to teach someone they aren't special without doing it directly because that would defeat the purpose. Either Corrin learns, or Corrin suffers his own idiocy, which is a win win for crazy ancient dragon. If the plot point came from Conquest it would have been minorly better for Kaze's character, but I think the idea was for Anankos to say "Kaze isn't special, what makes you any better?" Something that is more notable in bright and sunny birthright path to have a "you could die at any minute" message thrown at you.

That's just me though.