Which game has the best class balance?

[Shadow Mir]

10 hours ago, Jotari said:

Vantage doesn't mean throwing your unit at the enemy when they have half HP. It means throwing your unit at the enemy when they have full HP, and if they do manage to get hit, it keeps them surviving until player phase where they can retreat or heal.

Correction: If you get lucky. Also, note that the class Vantage is earned by is swordlocked, which tends to be considered a bad thing. And there's the matter where most of the units that can get it probably wouldn't last long at half HP...

Edited April 11, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Jotari]

Just now, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Correction: If you get lucky. Also, note that the class Vantages is earned by is swordlocked, which tends to be considered a bad thing.

It's also learned by a high avoid high crit class line. Vantage isn't designed as an offensive skill (though it completely is with Ryoma), it's insurance like miracle for keeping your non durable unit alive. If they can attack first and crit the enemy (or in FE10 activate adept or disarm) then they can avoid taking damage from an enemy attack. It's meant to be combined with their high evade. The fact that Life and Death is on the same class line isn't a coincidence. Swordmasters aren't about tanking attacks, they're about doing everything they can to avoid taking damage in the first place which vantage assists in. The whole 50% HP is just meant to be a limiting factor to stop it from being broken (a limiting factor I actually reckon it could do without since it's not that amazing compared to some other skills).

[Shadow Mir]

12 hours ago, Jotari said:

It's also learned by a high avoid high crit class line. Vantage isn't designed as an offensive skill (though it completely is with Ryoma), it's insurance like miracle for keeping your non durable unit alive. If they can attack first and crit the enemy (or in FE10 activate adept or disarm) then they can avoid taking damage from an enemy attack. It's meant to be combined with their high evade. The fact that Life and Death is on the same class line isn't a coincidence. Swordmasters aren't about tanking attacks, they're about doing everything they can to avoid taking damage in the first place which vantage assists in. The whole 50% HP is just meant to be a limiting factor to stop it from being broken (a limiting factor I actually reckon it could do without since it's not that amazing compared to some other skills).

A class that I consider to have seen better days, given that Fates is one of the worst games for dodgetanking since Shadow Dragon. Also, there's the part where most units that get Vantage likely wouldn't last very long at half health. As for Life and Death, it's a double-edged sword that hurts more than it helps, given that a lost unit translates to a restart. And Hoshidans, for the most part, already take hits like chumps - why in the seven hells would I want them to be taking 10 extra damage on top of their fragility???

Edited April 11, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[-Cynthia-]

8 hours ago, Jedi said:

FE12 encourages use of pretty much every class in the game, and even FE11 on H5 gives you some significant uses for even Generals at times.

Yeah, FE12 discourages just using Paladins/Dracos lategame because of their speed cap and different characters want different classes for the bases/weapon ranks. I actually reclassed characters to Generals once or twice for the defense which is something that would pretty much never happen in any other FE game. There are a few classes that are subpar (I'm not sure who would want to be a Warrior ever) but I think it does the best job overall.

 

Edited April 11, 2017 by -Cynthia-

[Interdimensional Observer]

13 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

As for Life and Death, it's a double-edged sword that hurts more than it helps, given that a lost unit translates to a restart. And Hoshidans, for the most part, already take hits like chumps - why in the seven hells would I want them to be taking 10 extra damage on top of their fragility???

Well if you play well enough that 99% of the time you'll keep your Snipers/Onmyojis/Master Ninjas safe from attack, then they need never fear getting OHKO'ed, and thus only stand to gain a massive 100% of the time +10 damage boost. On any unit that you want to have an enemy phase, Life or Death is useless (save DF!Scarlet + Vantage and a Barb Shuriken).

[Shadow Mir]

42 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Well if you play well enough that 99% of the time you'll keep your Snipers/Onmyojis/Master Ninjas safe from attack, then they need never fear getting OHKO'ed, and thus only stand to gain a massive 100% of the time +10 damage boost. On any unit that you want to have an enemy phase, Life or Death is useless (save DF!Scarlet + Vantage and a Barb Shuriken).

Doesn't change the fact that Life and Death has a crippling downside that is a deal breaker, as far as I'm concerned. Also, it's a level 15 skill, meaning that you won't even get it until the very end, if at all.

On 4/10/2017 at 11:58 AM, Gustavos said:

Gamble is either annoying with Fates' reduced hit rates or a straight upgrade once your fighters have become sword wielding heroes with better hit rates. 10 hit for 10 crit is not sensible risk vs. reward, and I wish they'd try again at making it a battle command like in Tellius. It's not a gamble if the choice is taken from you.

Speaking of, the Tellius version of Gamble was practically useless - when is it worth halving your hit rate to double your crit? In a word: Never.

[Augestein]

7 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Speaking of, the Tellius version of Gamble was practically useless - when is it worth halving your hit rate to double your crit? In a word: Never.

If you are in Wrath range and have Heaven affinity it can be pretty solid. A swordmaster has 10 critical innately, and with a killer weapon, that'd be +30 critical, so they'd have 40 critical and with Gamble, they can rock 80 critical. With Wrath range, all they have to do is hit at that point to score a critical. Swordmasters generally have overkill hit anyways, so you suddenly have so-so hit and amazing critical. If you're not guaranteed to kill an enemy, it's a nice little setup. 

 

That said, I'd say the best balance in the series is honestly probably Gaiden... As most have said, Pegsus are really the only ones that are "outstanding" in a way. 

[bethany81707]

1 minute ago, Augestein said:

If you are in Wrath range and have Heaven affinity it can be pretty solid. A swordmaster has 10 critical innately, and with a killer weapon, that'd be +30 critical, so they'd have 40 critical and with Gamble, they can rock 80 critical. With Wrath range, all they have to do is hit at that point to score a critical. Swordmasters generally have overkill hit anyways, so you suddenly have so-so hit and amazing critical. If you're not guaranteed to kill an enemy, it's a nice little setup. 

 

That said, I'd say the best balance in the series is honestly probably Gaiden... As most have said, Pegsus are really the only ones that are "outstanding" in a way. 

Problem is, Gamble affects the pictured Hit (ie with Avoid factored in, capped at 100) and not the natural Hit.

[Augestein]

Just now, phineas81707 said:

Problem is, Gamble affects the pictured Hit (ie with Avoid factored in, capped at 100) and not the natural Hit.

Does it? It's been awhile since I've used gamble, in that case, the skill sucks. 

[BANRYU]

I think Fates / FE8 probably come the closest. 

[Jotari]

I'm surprised more people haven't mentioned Shadow Dragon (for better or for worse). I think that game does a pretty decent job of making each class distinct and useful.

[Dark Holy Elf]

I found Shadow Dragon utterly dominated by fliers/cavaliers, with the occasional "swap to higher speed" option (and even then only on higher difficulties, really). Sages and Generals having 4 less move made them nearly worthless to me, though I can kinda see a niche for both if i squint. Most of the archer and axe classes, not so much. (New Mystery did improve things on this front but still isn't great.)

Anyway, I think Radiant Dawn was very, very close to taking this, with one glaring exception: wyverns. Paladins were given enough weaknesses (ledges, water, thickets, etc., not to mention only having one weapon in second tier) to make up for their perks, and pegasus knights and hawks/ravens had to deal with the instant death of crossbows. However wyvern riders have all the benefits of mobility and none of the drawbacks, outside a thunder weakness which is barely relevant. (Haar can be OHKOed by Elthunder crits, yes, but that's actually because of his luck/res combo, not his class; he can still be OHKOed with Nullify in many cases.) Haar's raw stat build isn't even THAT amazing (compare Gatrie, for instance) but Haar is incredibly dominant because he features those solid stats on a broken class.

Fates does a pretty good job, as mentioned. Most of the promotion branches are reasonably tough choices and archers/knights are less useless than usual, although it does, as usual, bend towards mounted and flying units being superior. (Cavalier is back to having two weapons unpromoted for no f'ing reason, and all three of cavalier/wyvern/pegasus get some bafflingly good skills like Shelter, Lunge, Elbow Room, Darting Blow, etc.)