[DATAMINED] Banner Leaked! Girls and Guys!

[Elieson]

12 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Aren't infantry units supposed to have their stats total to 158 or something like that? Female Robin's total would definitely be higher than Frederick's, here. I really hope his player stats are more on par...

Reverse math it. Add all the Non-Atk stats up, and subtract it from 158 (infantry) or 148 (colorless infantry) to figure out the Atk. This gets around the Wpns assumed MT. Though still looks insane to see Gaius with 39 speed and an 18 mt weapon so idk...subtract 1 or 2 from each stat to offset for an assumption 

Edited June 28, 2017 by Elieson

[Othin]

1 hour ago, Anacybele said:

That seems iffy, all of female Robin's stats are higher than Frederick's except for HP...which Frederick only beats her in by one point. Aren't infantry units supposed to have their stats total to 158 or something like that? Female Robin's total would definitely be higher than Frederick's, here. I really hope his player stats are more on par...

Though, I did predict this Frederick would be much speedier than his normal self. Frederick would totally tell you that you should focus on speed if you're not wearing armor so you can avoid attacks easier and dish out damage faster!

Also, glad Kyle Hebert stayed on to voice him instead of being replaced like Lucina's VA was...

In addition to Fred having lower total base stats due to being a ranged unit, daggers have 4 less Mt than corresponding melee weapons, so Fred having 3 less Atk than Robin in that photo actually means his base Atk is higher. In addition, Robin's stats are accounting for her A skill which gives her HP +4 and Def +2, so Fred beats her in base Def as well. Between all those factors, it probably works out to a relatively typical melee vs ranged difference.

Edited June 28, 2017 by Othin

[Anacybele]

6 minutes ago, Elieson said:

Reverse math it. Add all the Non-Atk stats up, and subtract it from 158 (infantry) or 148 (colorless infantry) to figure out the Atk. This gets around the Wpns assumed MT. Though still looks insane to see Gaius with 39 speed and an 18 mt weapon so idk...subtract 1 or 2 from each stat to offset for an assumption 

Yeah, Gaius looks infinitely better than Frederick right now as a ranged unit. Like another Quadsuna or Brave Bow bride Cordelia. Which doesn't make sense to me, honestly. Not that Gaius should be bad or anything, but Frederick is portrayed as pretty strong and seasoned. Even if he's not typically a dagger user, he shouldn't be THAT bad compared to other ranged units.

4 minutes ago, Othin said:

In addition to Fred having lower total base stats due to being a ranged unit, daggers have 4 less Mt than corresponding melee weapons, so Fred having 3 less Atk than Robin in that photo actually means his base Atk is higher. In addition, Robin''s stats are accounting for her A skill which gives her HP +4 and Def +2, so Fred beats her in base Def as well. Between all those factors, it probably works out to a relatively typical melee vs ranged difference.

Oh, okay, I see... Maybe he won't be as bad as I'm fearing. I don't expect him to be super amazing or anything, but I at least want summer Freddy to be usable and good enough to rely on sometimes, even if it requires a little skill inheritance.

Edited June 28, 2017 by Anacybele

[a bear]

Mt values are 14 for melee, 12 for the bow, 10 for the seashell. Think the stats are from the first two fights, Fred's being an apparent outlier.

Here's what someone's estimating for actual stats:

Tiki: 35/38/30/30/24

Robin: 35/32/35/28/29

Gaius: 34/30/39/18/28

Frederick: 40/33/31/28/17

[Tenzen12]

32 minutes ago, LuxSpes said:

Making this change adds nothing but flavor and would just needlessly nerf Tiki.

Also, think about how confusing it would become if RD!Haar was added as a Dragonlord that is weak to thunder magic, but not to arrows just to fit with how wyvern riders are in Radiant Dawn. And considering that some blue tomes aren't even thunder magic, Haar would have to be weak to Thoron and Dire Thunder, but not to Aura and Blarblade so that it fits with RD's mechanics. And then they'd release Wyvern Lord PoR!Haar who would be weak to bows and wind magic.

This is a different game from the ones in the main series and it comes with it's own rules and gameplay mechanics. In this game, Falchion is effective against units with breath weapons, not any wyverns and dragons. Starting adding all sorts of exceptions would just make the game a cluttered mess.

Tiki is dragon, actually she is first of all Fire Emblem dragons and in Falchion description is "Effective against dragons" in FEH as well. Not give her that weakness means she somehow isn't dragon anymore. 

And Honestly I don't think there was any game where dragons, manaketes or dragon lagus weren't weak against anti-dragon weapons. Flavor matter when game mechanics change on character spieces.

If they remove basic trait of character they should give at least explanation why something that has always worked suddenly doesn't. 

Edited June 28, 2017 by Tenzen12

[Anacybele]

Well, I just hope Frederick ditches some of his def for speed, mainly. Like I said, it'd totally be in his character to prioritize speed when he's not in his armor. :P

[LuxSpes]

2 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Oh, okay.

But wait, so the player unit stats will actually be LOWER than these? Wow, then Frederick's going to be pretty bad. That really sucks...

Well, his current BST is 154 which 6 above the usual range for dagger units. He could still have decent Atk and Spd, especially considering his dagger is really good. It  has 10 might, which makes it the second most powerful dagger, tied with Silver and only 1 might below Jaffar's legendary Deathly Dagger. Add the +2 to Atk/Spd/Def/Res and he still might be a pretty good dagger user. He also comes with Seal Atk/Spd meaning that any units he attack will suffer a -5 debuff to Atk/Spd/Def/Res.

2 minutes ago, Elieson said:

Reverse math it. Add all the Non-Atk stats up, and subtract it from 158 (infantry) or 148 (colorless infantry) to figure out the Atk. This gets around the Wpns assumed MT. Though still looks insane to see Gaius with 39 speed and an 18 mt weapon so idk...subtract 1 or 2 from each stat to offset for an assumption 

IIRC, Gaius' bow has 12 Might. And he probably won't have stats that high as an actual unit since that would leave him with a BST of 154. So he might end up faster than B!Cordelia, but with less Atk.

Just now, Tenzen12 said:

Tiki is dragon, actually she is first of all Fire Emblem dragons and in Falchion description is "Effective against dragons" in FEH as well. Not give her that weakness means she somehow isn't dragon anymore. 

And Honestly I don't think there was any game where dragons, manaketes or dragon lagus weren't weak against anti-dragon weapons. 

If they remove basic trait of character they should give at least explanation why something that has always worked suddenly doesn't. 

The text desciption of Falchion says that, but the actual effectiveness is against R/B/G breaths. They'd need to add 1 exception just to satisfy lore from the main series. The description of Falchion would have be Eff: Red Breath, Green Breath, Blue Breath, Axe(only Summer Tiki). I think keeping the gameplay clear and simple is more important than following the lore of the main games to the letter.

[Anacybele]

6 minutes ago, LuxSpes said:

Well, his current BST is 154 which 6 above the usual range for dagger units. He could still have decent Atk and Spd, especially considering his dagger is really good. It  has 10 might, which makes it the second most powerful dagger, tied with Silver and only 1 might below Jaffar's legendary Deathly Dagger. Add the +2 to Atk/Spd/Def/Res and he still might be a pretty good dagger user. He also comes with Seal Atk/Spd meaning that any units he attack will suffer a -5 debuff to Atk/Spd/Def/Res.

Oh yeah, good points! Now I'm not as concerned. ^^ I was also planning to give him Renewal (if I can pull someone who has it. Never have...) to offset the 2 damage penalty.

EDIT: Oh wait, Seal Atk/Spd isn't a C skill... I thought it would be since those kinds of skills typically are C skills. But it's a B skill...which is what Renewal is, I think. Ugh...

Edited June 28, 2017 by Anacybele

[Arthur97]

1 minute ago, LuxSpes said:

The text desciption of Falchion says that, but the actual effectiveness is against R/B/G breaths. They'd need to add 1 exception just to satisfy lore from the main series. The description of Falchion would have be Eff: Red Breath, Green Breath, Blue Breath, Axe(only Summer Tiki). I think keeping the gameplay clear and simple is more important than following the lore of the main games to the letter.

Especially as this is essentially Fire Emblem lite. For that matter, if they wanted to be completely accurate, Falchion (Awakening version at least) should do extra damage to wyverns, but wyverns don't have their own category in Heroes, so from a programming perspective, it becomes harder to pull off with the system they have in place. They could do it, but is it really worth it?

[Rezzy]

4 minutes ago, LuxSpes said:

Well, his current BST is 154 which 6 above the usual range for dagger units.

Really?  I thought all the units of similar types had the same BST give or take a point or two.

[LuxSpes]

Just now, Rezzy said:

Really?  I thought all the units of similar types had the same BST give or take a point or two.

They do, which is why I think Summer Gaius will have lower stats once we actually get him as a playable unit, so that he fits in the 147-149 BST spectrum of the other ranged infantry units .

Unless IS decided to implement power creep, which I would not welcome at all.

[Alkaid]

Doesn't look like Gaius will be prying B Cordelia from her throne for best archer unit, but he's not too bad.

Fredrick doesn't look like he'll be better than Kagero either for best dagger user. That physical bulk might let him do some cool things in pve content, but probably not do too well in the arena with that lower speed and low res where mages and speedy/QR DC units are abundant. Like Gaius, he doesn't look bad though, just not a new top-of-his-class unit like B Cordelia showed up and became.

Robin and Tiki I'm unsure how to feel about. They both seem to be suffering from "well rounded stat syndrome. " Neither of them seem like they'll stand out offensively or defensively, which is a shame. Tiki's speed is especially sad. If that goes down at all in her real stats that's gonna be pretty depressing.

At least at first glance, they seem decent but none of them really make you go "wow."

[Othin]

11 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Oh yeah, good points! Now I'm not as concerned. ^^ I was also planning to give him Renewal (if I can pull someone who has it. Never have...) to offset the 2 damage penalty.

EDIT: Oh wait, Seal Atk/Spd isn't a C skill... I thought it would be since those kinds of skills typically are C skills. But it's a B skill...which is what Renewal is, I think. Ugh...

Threaten skills are C skills, but Seal skills are B skills.

[Tenzen12]

11 minutes ago, LuxSpes said:

 

The text desciption of Falchion says that, but the actual effectiveness is against R/B/G breaths. They'd need to add 1 exception just to satisfy lore from the main series. The description of Falchion would have be Eff: Red Breath, Green Breath, Blue Breath, Axe(only Summer Tiki). I think keeping the gameplay clear and simple is more important than following the lore of the main games to the letter.

It should have "effective against Breaths" but it isn't. It says "effective against dragons" and add breaths as way to identify them. But whether they do use it or not it doesn't change their species. This is matter not just satisfy lore of original games, but also consistency of Heroes itself. 

[Troykv]

16 minutes ago, Rezzy said:

Really?  I thought all the units of similar types had the same BST give or take a point or two.

Frederick has a bit less than the average, but isn't a big difference (the average is 154, he has 153, the other outliners are Gunter with 150 and Jagen with 148; also Eliwood, Luke and Camus, but as the opposite case with 155)

[DehNutCase]

1 minute ago, Tenzen12 said:

It should have "effective against Breaths" but it isn't. It says "effective against dragons" and add breaths as way to identify them. But whether they do use it or not it doesn't change their species. This is matter not just satisfy lore of original games, but also consistency of Heroes itself. 

In terms of Heroes, dragons are units that use breath attacks. M!Corrin isn't a dragon because he uses a sword, F!Corrin is a dragon because she uses a breath.

[Kaden]

1 hour ago, Lushen said:

Erm, uh, is this real?  39 speed on Gaius?

Gaius and Lon'qu had almost the same stats in Awakening. They're pretty close in Heroes too except Gaius being a dagger unit meant around 10 less BST. If you gave normal Gaius 3 points into HP, speed, and resistance to make him into a hypothetical melee infantry, he'd have the exact same stats as Lon'qu.

1 hour ago, Anacybele said:

Aren't infantry units supposed to have their stats total to 158 or something like that? Female Robin's total would definitely be higher than Frederick's here. I really hope his player stats are more on par...

For playable units at 5*, usually 157 to 158 BST for melee infantry and flyers and 147 to 148 for ranged infantry and flyers. Cavaliers would be 154 to 155 for melee and 144 to 145 for ranged, well, magic since we don't have a mounted archer yet, armors have 168 to 169, and dancers have 149 to 150. There are, of course, some outliers like any of the trainee and villager units like Donnel, Faye, and the kid dragons, Athena, Bartre, Caeda, and Clair having 156 as melee infantry and flyers, Boey, both Robins, and Sophia having 149, and of the melee cavaliers, Frederick, Gunter, and Jagen have under 154 with Jagen being in the roughest spot at 148, a ranged infantry or flyer's BST.

I think it's because of growth rates that determine BST like how if you have a -Atk or -Res Titania, she'd drop from 154 to 153 because those banes drop her stats by 4 rather than 3 and the only way to even it is if she's +Def which would up her defense from 25 neutral to 29.

Different and outlying BST shouldn't be a problem since I doubt the developers would do something like here comes a trainee Pegasus Knight with 37 attack and 37 speed with bulk similar to Subaki as most trainee units just have their stats balanced out more. Higher or lower BST shouldn't be that indicative of whether or not a unit is bad. Jagen is the only exception to this where I feel like him getting screwed out of 2 to 5 stats could have really helped him out even if it went into his HP making him bulkier at the very least.

Swim trunks Frederick seems like the dagger equivalent of Virion. So, he'll be pretty bulky physically and can sort of take a hit from magic through his high HP. Speed is high enough he'll avoid getting doubled by most units. At the very least, he probably has the best Seal skill since combined with any dagger -- Poison Dagger only debuffs infantry, so be careful about that --, he could debuff a unit's attack, speed, defense, and resistance by around -5. Poison Strike and a dagger would deal more chip damage, but being able to heavily cripple a unit like that is pretty neat. It might be safer if Frederick inherits a Rogue Dagger+ which would cripple his damage output, but after attacking a unit, he would gain +5 to def/res while doing -5 to a unit's atk/spd/def/res with Rogue Dagger+ and Seal Atk Spd 2. Frederick being slower than Matthew might be concerning, though, but you could just slap Fury 3 or Speed +3 to help him out.

Edited June 28, 2017 by Kaden

[LuxSpes]

1 minute ago, Tenzen12 said:

It should have "effective against Breaths" but it isn't. It says "effective against dragons" and add breaths as way to identify them. But whether they do use it or not it doesn't change their species. This is matter not just satisfy lore of original games, but also consistency of Heroes itself. 

They probably could have put Breath users instead of dragons, but I feel most people understand they mean those weapons are effective against the breath units since they're the only one who physically become dragons during battle.

Summer Tiki doesn't change into a dragon during battle and thus isn't  weak to Falchion/Naga. This is consistent with the logic of the game. I think there would be more people confused by M!Corrin and Summer Tiki being weak to Naga and Falchion than people that will be confused by them not having the dragon weakness. 

[Rezzy]

I've gotten a sudden influx of Friend Requests on Heroes, if any of them are from people here on SF, please either send me a PM or tag me in a reply here, so I can try to add you.  I'm not sure if there's some Lurker Mist supporters here, or my Bride Cordelia is just really popular with random match-ups.

[Anacybele]

17 minutes ago, Othin said:

Threaten skills are C skills, but Seal skills are B skills.

Right, yeah, I got them mixed up, I guess. :P

[Arcanite]

6 minutes ago, Rezzy said:

Bride Cordelia is just really popular with random match-ups.

They have to get that Bride Riceload

[Rezzy]

2 minutes ago, Arcanite said:

They have to get that Bride Riceload

I sense a meme reference, but I'm not sure what riceload means.  It sounds dirty.

[Arcanite]

Just now, Rezzy said:

I sense a meme reference, but I'm not sure what riceload means.  It sounds dirty.

It's just Cordelia rearranged XD

It's only dirty if you make it sound dirty

Smoke pointed it out when we were joking around about how epic rice is (all three of us eat rice a lot heh)

Cordelia is now our unofficial mascot :P Amphy likes eating riceload the most

[Anacybele]

lol, why are we talking about Cordelia now?

I'm still in disbelief that Frederick is in this! I never expected that in a million years! And Frederick got to be in a special banner before Tharja, male Robin, Ike, Roy, Hector, Ephraim, and some other Awakening characters that are definitely more popular than him (like Henry and Lon'qu). That's actually rather amusing. XD

I really thought I'd get a special Ike before any kind of special Frederick, let alone a Frederick showing off his six-pack abs! lol (not counting CYL Ike)

Edited June 28, 2017 by Anacybele

[Tenzen12]

19 minutes ago, LuxSpes said:

They probably could have put Breath users instead of dragons, but I feel most people understand they mean those weapons are effective against the breath units since they're the only one who physically become dragons during battle.

Summer Tiki doesn't change into a dragon during battle and thus isn't  weak to Falchion/Naga. This is consistent with the logic of the game. I think there would be more people confused by M!Corrin and Summer Tiki being weak to Naga and Falchion than people that will be confused by them not having the dragon weakness. 

Ah Corrins, I forgot about them. In that case I have to concede here. You were right.