Is Camilla that good in conquest? (lunatic)

[Harvey]

46 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Yeah... one of those isn't going to be seen until near the end of the game, and at least three of the others are just bad, with two of those even getting in each other's way.

Which of the three are bad? And which of those doesn't happen till the end?

 

[Shadow Mir]

2 minutes ago, Harvey said:

Which of the three are bad? And which of those doesn't happen till the end?

 

Bowbreaker is a level 15 skill, and Sol, Vengeance and Good Fortune are pretty much worthless, and I dare say Savage Blow is not much better.

Edited October 7, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Harvey]

1 hour ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Bowbreaker is a level 15 skill, and Sol, Vengeance and Good Fortune are pretty much worthless, and I dare say Savage Blow is not much better.

Bowbreaker is useful for her. Just get all the useful skills for her main class which is upto lv 15, then use the last few levels to get bowbreaker and then turn her back. While its still risky and she isn't as dodgy as Ryoma, she won't face so much of threat against bow users. It just helps to make her more reliable later on.

Sol worthless? With her good skill, she can activate it quite often and luck isn't needed to activate the skill so much. Vengence is also good on her as well as long as she stays as a sorcerer or a dark knight.

Ok so Good Fortune may not be that useful. So that can be replaced with Lifetaker instead which is admittedly a better skill to use since it doesn't require skill to activate it.

And no...savage blow is a useful skill by a TON as it also damages enemy units even around her as well. Combine this with posion strike and your enemies will be reaching very low HPs.

 

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

9 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Stop. Average time!

Level 20 Camilla (transitions out of Malig into WL at level 5):

40.1 32.35 10.35 30.15 30 20.5 30.05 19.15

20/20 WR-WL Beruka:

41.5 28.5 3.55 35 23 26 35 15.5

20/20 Wolf Keaton:

57.2 39 0 18 26 18.4 33.4 14

20/20 Merc/Hero Selena:

43.4 28.05 4.45 28.05 34 20.15 28.95 17.2

20/20 Archer/Kinshi Mozu:

33.1 27 6.7 34 32 29.7 23 26.05

 

So is Camilla... inaccurate? Not really, 30 Skl is plenty, axes are a bit inaccurate, but not that much when once we add WTA and weapon rank bonuses. Her HP is comparable with all of the above except against Keaton's, and her extra Speed makes her much better than Beruka, since Beruka is subject to being doubled without help. Her stats are perfectly viable, and it's reasonable she can hit 20/20, whereas everyone else listed, particularly Mozu, will be less likely to max out without late use of child paralogues, 20/15 is more appropriate for comparing them vs. Camilla.

 

You know, the funny shit about arguing about Axe Accuracy in Conquest is the fact that Axe have the best accuracy against Swords in Conquest

 

While Lance is filled by Generals, and Zerkers aren't too hard to hit

 

 

@Harvey The best set up for Camilla that is reasonable to achieve is actually like Sol, Axebreaker, Strong Riposte, Trample, Filler.

 

With Shuribreak annoying to get because BK is bad without WRANK

 

Granted if you have access to Master of Arms from Myrmidon line, Master of Arms Myrmidon Line Camilla can have Life and Death, Vantage, STR+2, Trample, and Strong Riposte, which have 70 ATK wielding Hand Axe and pair up

Edited October 7, 2017 by JSND Alter Dragon Boner

[Shadow Mir]

2 hours ago, Harvey said:

Bowbreaker is useful for her. Just get all the useful skills for her main class which is upto lv 15, then use the last few levels to get bowbreaker and then turn her back. While its still risky and she isn't as dodgy as Ryoma, she won't face so much of threat against bow users. It just helps to make her more reliable later on.

Sol worthless? With her good skill, she can activate it quite often and luck isn't needed to activate the skill so much. Vengence is also good on her as well as long as she stays as a sorcerer or a dark knight.

Ok so Good Fortune may not be that useful. So that can be replaced with Lifetaker instead which is admittedly a better skill to use since it doesn't require skill to activate it.

And no...savage blow is a useful skill by a TON as it also damages enemy units even around her as well. Combine this with posion strike and your enemies will be reaching very low HPs.

 

Except... Even with Bowbreaker, would you take that chance when one (un)lucky shot can still do her in???

Frankly, Sol stopped being a useful skill after Radiant Dawn. And Vengeance is much riskier, less powerful, and less reliable relative to Awakening. Not to mention that they have negative synergy.

Lifetaker has the same issue as Bowbreaker - that being that you only get it for a few chapters at most.

Ha. I never thought Savage Blow was anything other than a waste of a skill slot - I very seldom hit a number of enemy units that's worth mentioning with it. Pass.

[wissenschaft]

On 10/5/2017 at 5:03 AM, guedesbrawl said:

It's also worth noting Camilla, if she stays as a Malig, is your best user of Spirit dusts. Everyone else either has too much MAg for +2/4 to make a difference (Elise/Nyx) or are too slow to make use of the boost consistently (Leo/Odin)

This is very true. Camilla with a bolt axe  might need just 1 spirit dust to ORKO fighters. If your unlikely and she doesn't gain a magic level then its well worth spending that spirit dust on her.

I suppose there are better units to use the bolt axe but also unnecessary to do so. Typically I don't want Camilla ORKO every unit since I need weaken enemies to feed kills to my other units.

Edited October 7, 2017 by wissenschaft

[Interdimensional Observer]

9 hours ago, DragonFlames said:

I'd love to agree with you and I appreciate the time you took to calculate / look up the average stats for each unit, but for whatever reason, Camilla in my several CQ playthroughs always - ALWAYS - had worse stats than everyone else once they started hitting their promoted classes. It may have something to do with the fact that I don't really like using a pre-promoted unit when I have so many unpromoted ones that can make more use of the EXP, especially when said pre-promote happens to be a character I can't stand (Leo suffers the same problems, pretty much). She gets used as a fail-safe on chapters where I am unsure my strategies are up to the task (10, 12 and 13, mostly and I don't really need her for the latter two anymore), but that's pretty much it, so by the time everyone else promotes and has gained ten or more levels, Camilla has gotten like three levels at most - and even that number is me being generous - with usually pretty crappy stat gains on top of that. The result? All my then promoted units have better stats than her, making her a pair-up bot, carrier or damage stack bot.

Regardless of the argument - whether it's my style of play or Camilla's growth rates belying her actual usefulness -, I have thus learned to never trust average stats.

Also I am unwilling to give her a Heart Seal that can be better spent elsewhere (Odin, Mozu, Laslow, Corrin, any child) because I really don't like her character and characters I don't like always get the shaft in the items department. Also I don't like having story-important people outside of their 'canon' classes (with the exception of Avatar units), but that is neither here nor there.

It isn't hard to figure out the averages of the non-kids, there's a calculator for that which I can plug the char and classes into and viola, math-free results. 

I bring up averages because it's the only way to objectively argue FE chars,  screwage and blessings aren't possible to truly measure. But any tier list in FE should come with a "Your Results May Vary" warning, since in individual cases characters can and will deviate from their averages to varying degrees. I've had screwed Oscars in PoR, and so I dumped him whenever he did go that way. But the Law of Large Numbers says that in the long run (many playthroughs, many levelups), everything will average out to the averages. Personal dislike is irrelevant to gameplay arguments, but play as you wish, have fun, whatever your definition of fun is.

As for canon class, Camilla being a Malig Knight doesn't have much character-backing. She is no Cherche where her mount comes up all the time in her conversations. I don't think Camilla ever talks about it, there is no name for her Revenant Dragon, nor any lore as to what said dragons even are (a shame).

 

6 hours ago, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

You know, the funny shit about arguing about Axe Accuracy in Conquest is the fact that Axe have the best accuracy against Swords in Conquest

 

The Dual Club you mean? You do get it the chapter Camilla joins. I didn't mention that since there is only one on CQ to use, but it is there. And given your other natural axers (Arthur, Charlotte, Beruka) are generally problematic (Percy alone is the exception, barring late-recruit kids), Camilla can prioritize it.

 

3 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Ha. I never thought Savage Blow was anything other than a waste of a skill slot - I very seldom hit a number of enemy units that's worth mentioning with it. Pass.

If all it takes is a harmless couple levels to get, might as well. Let's face it, no 1st Gen character is probably going to have a shortage of skill slots. With zero reclassing, each is only getting 4 skills. With one reclass to an unrelated class (like Nohr Noble to Master Ninja), we'll be looking at 6 skills obtained for the majority of the game (as in pre-20/15, which will be reached only near or at C27). MK and WL are awesome classes, I don't know if Camilla ever really wants out of them, cutting into her skill selection. 

She could probably afford to hop into Hero/Berserker for some quick skill learning with no real effects on how a chapter turns out for certain fights, and going just one of those reclasses for 3 levels is upping her skill pool from 4: Lunge, Str+2, Savage Blow, Defense Rally; to 7 (or 8 with Fighter and a second reclass): HP+5/Quick Riposte, Gamble/Good Fortune, and Sol/Strength Rally. Given Gamble and Good Fortune are both objectionable, Sol is unreliable too, Rallybot Camilla being situational, and Lunge being replaceable at times, I think Savage Blow can occupy a skill slot without reason to object in practice.

Dark Mage does offer the nice Heartseeker to resolve hitting issues, but that'll require two levels in a class where Camilla will be stuck using her subpar Magic or a Bronze Sword over a powerful axe.

Edited October 7, 2017 by Interdimensional Observer

[joshcja]

10 hours ago, DragonFlames said:

That still doesn't guarantee the people you want get the boosts, though. Also, Chef's Hat is a little hard to come by if you don't have the resources or a lot of luck to find multiple Castles that have them.
Disclaimer: I don't really know what, let alone how much, you need to get the Chef's Hat.

On that note: Has anyone noticed how some resources appear more than others when starting a new game? I have rarely gotten Crystals or Pearls, but for whatever reason, Rubies and Onyxes appear very frequently.

Actually, yes, it does gaurentee you will get the needed boost. Just reroll if the wrong units eat pre-3rd upgrade.

You can gift yourself a chefs hat on ch7.

There are no speed issues in CQ... if you're getting doubled late it's entirely player error.

--------------------------------------------

Heartseeker is a 1xl dip. Or if you're smart a 1xp dip. It's normaly worth taking mal aura as well though. Growths are seeded, so you should always pull a near perfect level up on dips.

Good fortune is used so you can get lucky with nhor's mother figure, duh.

Cams ideal skillset's are like... Str+2/axefaire/trample/filler/filler or sblow/inspiration/heartseeker/filler/filler. She's not a super heavy ep unit past ch14 so you're going for damage or support. Pick one.

Edited October 7, 2017 by joshcja

[DragonFlames]

47 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

screwage and blessings aren't possible to truly measure

This is very true. I had screwed and blessed people all over my playthroughs and it was never really consistent who got what. Hell, I had screwed Corrins for Pete's sake. To say nothing about blessed Nyx in Revelation of all things...

49 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

But any tier list in FE should come with a "Your Results May Vary" warning, since in individual cases characters can and will deviate from their averages to varying degrees

I agree 100%.

50 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Personal dislike is irrelevant to gameplay arguments,

Which is why I crossed out the part about me disliking Camilla. Though personal preferences do weigh heavily on gameplay decisions as a whole.

50 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

but play as you wish, have fun, whatever your definition of fun is.

Never intended to do otherwise. It's still fun to discuss playstyles, personal experiences and get new / interesting input from other players.

52 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

As for canon class, Camilla being a Malig Knight doesn't have much character-backing.

To be honest, that one was just me being petty as heck, since Malig Knight is her standard class in most of her artwork (Cipher notwithstanding) and her portrait has her in that class, too. I always try to go with "canon" routes (as in classes that look the most like the units portrait, even when said promotion sucks (as is the case with Malig Knight)) when promoting as well, especially on story important folks with the exception of Corrin, since neither Noble is a particularly outstanding class, since Dragonstones aren't that great in the lategame if you don't build your skill set around using one, I think.

In the end, I think I was too harsh on Camilla, honestly. She does her job well enough and she isn't a particularly terrible unit, either (she's no Arthur, Hinoka, Hinata or Setsuna that's for damn sure).
It's just that, for me, her supposed 'god tier' status hasn't really shown itself in any of my playthroughs. It's the same thing as with Ryoma. They both get hyped so much by the fanbase and I am sitting there not seeing them living up to the hype that surrounds them. Sure, I might be in a minority on this one, but at least in my experience, neither character has presented itself as anything close to overpowered. Strong? Sure. Overpowered to the point of being able to solo entire maps? Not so much. Though I don't think people view Camilla to the latter degree, do they?

In any case, I am really not trying to start an argument. I just wanted to share my views from my experience in order to give maybe a new perspective on things. That's all. 

1 hour ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

I don't think Camilla ever talks about it

She does mention it once during the hike up to the Rainbow Sages temple. I think she offers Corrin a ride because he/she is tired, of course completely ignoring the fact that Corrin is a dragon him/herself. Though it is unknown whether Corrin is able to fly in dragon form, from its animations I'd say no.

1 hour ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

nor any lore as to what said dragons even are (a shame)

True, some of the other games have given us the lore behind the Wyverns or dragons they ride. Macedon had them living in the wild and tamed by the people of the kingdom in Shadow Dragon, there's the Wyvern Valley in Awakening, but Fates had none of that, especially not on the zombie Wvyerns Malig Knights have.
Though... did Tellius have lore on how the Dracoknights' dragons were in any way different from the Laguz? I don't recall there being such atm.

[Interdimensional Observer]

5 minutes ago, DragonFlames said:

To say nothing about blessed Nyx in Revelation of all things...

Just to add a little instance of my own Rev. ups and downs. I have a Xander who is like 20/15, but only proced Def once, maybe twice on Lunatic. I used him since he's easy to use, but he was ugh and more of a liability; Hinoka made a lovely WL though, as did Oboro.

As for Ryoma, dodgetanking is a cruel mistress. I never found him capable of destroying entire armies, only selectively killing half armies. Swords are always too accurate for him to reliably sidestep, and he has to pick between dodging Lances/Shuriken and Axes/Bows depending on his equipped, he can't dodge everything at once. Generals particularly screw him over since they pack Lance and Axe.

Sorry if I came off as hostile at all or anything, didn't mean to be. Just stating the standards of debate, which can be kinda cold and arrogant looking I admit.

 

9 minutes ago, DragonFlames said:

Though... did Tellius have lore on how the Dracoknights' dragons were in any way different from the Laguz? I don't recall there being such atm.

They never did. Degeneration doesn't exist, so I guess it's totally different species. This one picture shows us what the Zunanma looked like:

Spoiler

 

Yune:
“People–the Zunanma–are the only living creatures of this world that we didn’t create. Animals evolved to become Zunanma, who then became laguz and beorc. That evolution continues today!”

So I'm guessing that first came the animals, which included: wyverns, and the tigers and lion and wolves and cats and hawks, ravens, and egrets/herons, whatever became the Beorc, and any animals that became Zunanma groups that went extinct before they could become Laguz or something else. Then they evolved further into Zunanma, and from the Zunamna the Beorc and Laguz. It can be inferred that not all wyverns/Dracoknight dragons took the path towards Zunanma and then Dragon Laguz, and hence remained as they are. Just as wild hawks and crows should exist in Tellius too. Not all chimps and apes IRL became Homo Sapiens after all, though Homo Erectus and Neanderthals were completely replaced by Sapiens. Which could be an easy analogy for what happened to the Zunanma- they were all replaced by Laguz and Beorc.

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, joshcja said:

Actually, yes, it does gaurentee you will get the needed boost. Just reroll if the wrong units eat pre-3rd upgrade.

You can gift yourself a chefs hat on ch7.

There are no speed issues in CQ... if you're getting doubled late it's entirely player error.

--------------------------------------------

Heartseeker is a 1xl dip. Or if you're smart a 1xp dip. It's normaly worth taking mal aura as well though. Growths are seeded, so you should always pull a near perfect level up on dips.

Good fortune is used so you can get lucky with nhor's mother figure, duh.

Cams ideal skillset's are like... Str+2/axefaire/trample/filler/filler or sblow/inspiration/heartseeker/filler/filler. She's not a super heavy ep unit past ch14 so you're going for damage or support. Pick one.

In other words, wasting time I could use to beat the game - not everybody is willing to savescum just to ensure the right units get a boost from the kitchen. If you're willing to consider that legit, you might as well treat surges as legit. And this is ignoring that you only get one food regularly. So this is little more than grasping at straws.

2 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

If all it takes is a harmless couple levels to get, might as well. Let's face it, no 1st Gen character is probably going to have a shortage of skill slots. With zero reclassing, each is only getting 4 skills. With one reclass to an unrelated class (like Nohr Noble to Master Ninja), we'll be looking at 6 skills obtained for the majority of the game (as in pre-20/15, which will be reached only near or at C27). MK and WL are awesome classes, I don't know if Camilla ever really wants out of them, cutting into her skill selection. 

She could probably afford to hop into Hero/Berserker for some quick skill learning with no real effects on how a chapter turns out for certain fights, and going just one of those reclasses for 3 levels is upping her skill pool from 4: Lunge, Str+2, Savage Blow, Defense Rally; to 7 (or 8 with Fighter and a second reclass): HP+5/Quick Riposte, Gamble/Good Fortune, and Sol/Strength Rally. Given Gamble and Good Fortune are both objectionable, Sol is unreliable too, Rallybot Camilla being situational, and Lunge being replaceable at times, I think Savage Blow can occupy a skill slot without reason to object in practice.

Dark Mage does offer the nice Heartseeker to resolve hitting issues, but that'll require two levels in a class where Camilla will be stuck using her subpar Magic or a Bronze Sword over a powerful axe.

On paper, yes. But in practice, Savage Blow is a Useless Useful Skill - outside of foolishly overextending the user, Savage Blow won't be doing much that Poison Strike couldn't do. And frankly, Rally Defence has helped me more than Savage Blow ever did, and ever will.

[Harvey]

6 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Except... Even with Bowbreaker, would you take that chance when one (un)lucky shot can still do her in???

Except no one has to be that stupid to trust the skill for her usefulness. The thing about the skill is to maintain her usefulness. So if in case you missed a bow user and it attacks her, the skill can help her a lot in such cases. Its more or less a backup. Whether or not it comes late doesn't matter because its worth getting it and using it once you get it.

6 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Frankly, Sol stopped being a useful skill after Radiant Dawn. And Vengeance is much riskier, less powerful, and less reliable relative to Awakening. Not to mention that they have negative synergy.

Sol is still useful to her to help her last longer in battle. It doesn't matter how low of hp it drains. The thing is that its still useful if you decide to use it.

And who said vengence is less powerful? It adds the user's attack power if you lose HP which is powerful. It may not activate frequently but its still a powerful skill regardless.

6 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Lifetaker has the same issue as Bowbreaker - that being that you only get it for a few chapters at most.

Its still worth regardless.

 

[Shadow Mir]

12 minutes ago, Harvey said:

Except no one has to be that stupid to trust the skill for her usefulness. The thing about the skill is to maintain her usefulness. So if in case you missed a bow user and it attacks her, the skill can help her a lot in such cases. Its more or less a backup. Whether or not it comes late doesn't matter because its worth getting it and using it once you get it.

Sol is still useful to her to help her last longer in battle. It doesn't matter how low of hp it drains. The thing is that its still useful if you decide to use it.

And who said vengence is less powerful? It adds the user's attack power if you lose HP which is powerful. It may not activate frequently but its still a powerful skill regardless.

Its still worth regardless.

 

By that point, though, bows likely wouldn't be all that common, especially after Hinoka's chapter (and most of the bow users there happen to have Air Superiority, which negates most of the hit penalty Bowbreaker would hit them with).

With it only draining half of the damage dealt...? Not bloody likely, unless she happened to do double what she was taking. And it only really does anything if the enemy is healthy.

Did the fact that Fates happens to be called Low HP Emblem fail to cross your mind? Because that's the problem - it adds only half the damage taken to your attack. Vengeance is going to require playing with fire to get any real mileage out of, otherwise it's a dud. And yet you recommend Sol and Vengeance on the same set when honestly, neither of them is worth a reclass to get???

Maybe to you, but I could likely find something more worthwhile.

[joshcja]

You don't savescum messhall ffs, do you undetstand how the most basic game mechanics work... at all?

Edited October 7, 2017 by joshcja

[Shadow Mir]

2 hours ago, joshcja said:

You don't savescum messhall ffs, do you undetstand how the most basic game mechanics work... at all?

Of course, otherwise I wouldn't have called you out on your statement about the mess hall. Unless you're claiming that it's possible to have everyone benefit from it before level 3...?

[Errorik]

On 10/3/2017 at 8:57 AM, Interdimensional Observer said:

If you have the save data remaining, compare to her averages available here. Then you'll be able to see if you got screwed with her again and again.

I had no idea about this. Thanks! Don't need my spreadsheets anymore!

[joshcja]

1 hour ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Of course, otherwise I wouldn't have called you out on your statement about the mess hall. Unless you're claiming that it's possible to have everyone benefit from it before level 3...?

Every relevant unit is not every unit. You stack hall with tonics/buffs/pairup on relevant units to get the desired benchmark, fishing for full food buffs on every deployed unit is completely pointless.

Peri/Mozu can consistantly buff all units before 3rd hall with the (stronger)secondary food buff, you do still want the primary buff on relevant units but that's not exactly reset heavy as you're fishing for primary buffs on 3 units tops.

Arthur is somewhat situational but he can give a full army +2 or +2/+2 early if you're willing to sac a less useful stat on half the army and learn his bizzare mess hall conduct.

With a hat there's no real rng here. You get more food back from arena/lotto/convo than you will ever use.

Edited October 7, 2017 by joshcja

[DragonFlames]

On 7.10.2017 at 6:42 PM, Interdimensional Observer said:

Just to add a little instance of my own Rev. ups and downs. I have a Xander who is like 20/15, but only proced Def once, maybe twice on Lunatic. I used him since he's easy to use, but he was ugh and more of a liability; Hinoka made a lovely WL though, as did Oboro.

As for Ryoma, dodgetanking is a cruel mistress. I never found him capable of destroying entire armies, only selectively killing half armies. Swords are always too accurate for him to reliably sidestep, and he has to pick between dodging Lances/Shuriken and Axes/Bows depending on his equipped, he can't dodge everything at once. Generals particularly screw him over since they pack Lance and Axe.

Sorry if I came off as hostile at all or anything, didn't mean to be. Just stating the standards of debate, which can be kinda cold and arrogant looking I admit.

 

They never did. Degeneration doesn't exist, so I guess it's totally different species. This one picture shows us what the Zunanma looked like:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Yune:
“People–the Zunanma–are the only living creatures of this world that we didn’t create. Animals evolved to become Zunanma, who then became laguz and beorc. That evolution continues today!”

So I'm guessing that first came the animals, which included: wyverns, and the tigers and lion and wolves and cats and hawks, ravens, and egrets/herons, whatever became the Beorc, and any animals that became Zunanma groups that went extinct before they could become Laguz or something else. Then they evolved further into Zunanma, and from the Zunamna the Beorc and Laguz. It can be inferred that not all wyverns/Dracoknight dragons took the path towards Zunanma and then Dragon Laguz, and hence remained as they are. Just as wild hawks and crows should exist in Tellius too. Not all chimps and apes IRL became Homo Sapiens after all, though Homo Erectus and Neanderthals were completely replaced by Sapiens. Which could be an easy analogy for what happened to the Zunanma- they were all replaced by Laguz and Beorc.

No harm done, fam. I had fun debating with you. I was just speaking generally, since I can come off as quite cold and / or harsh, sometimes.
That's the thing about communicating through text: You can never really transport emotion, so simple arguments can come off as rude / harsh when they aren't supposed to.

Interesting theory on the Tellius origin story.
I personally loved that part of the story. I don't think any other Fire Emblem has given us an actual origin story of the species living on the respective continents.

[wissenschaft]

On 10/7/2017 at 1:06 PM, Levant Mir Celestia said:

In other words, wasting time I could use to beat the game - not everybody is willing to savescum just to ensure the right units get a boost from the kitchen. If you're willing to consider that legit, you might as well treat surges as legit. And this is ignoring that you only get one food regularly. So this is little more than grasping at straws.

On paper, yes. But in practice, Savage Blow is a Useless Useful Skill - outside of foolishly overextending the user, Savage Blow won't be doing much that Poison Strike couldn't do. And frankly, Rally Defence has helped me more than Savage Blow ever did, and ever will.

I guess it depends on how you play. My Camilla just got Savage Blow and I find it useful enough. I tend to wipe out groups of enemies on my active phase. The little bit of AoE damage it does can be just enough for my weaker enemies to be able to ORKO enemies. Situational when you can risk Camilla to make good use of it but its still pretty useful. Trample however is awesome.

Camilla isn't someone I use to solo the map.........thats corrins job. I just Camilla to set up and feed kills to my weaker units. And to wield the Bolt Axe, shes got a few magic levels so lucky me.

Edited October 9, 2017 by wissenschaft

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, wissenschaft said:

I guess it depends on how you play. My Camilla just got Savage Blow and I find it useful enough. I tend to wipe out groups of enemies on my active phase. The little bit of AoE damage it does can be just enough for my weaker enemies to be able to ORKO enemies. Situational when you can risk Camilla to make good use of it but its still pretty useful. Trample however is awesome.

Camilla isn't someone I use to solo the map.........thats corrins job. I just Camilla to set up and feed kills to my weaker units. And to wield the Bolt Axe, shes got a few magic levels so lucky me.

In general, I very very seldom see a large enough group that Savage Blow would do anything of note, for one, and second, if I do see such a group, it's probably one that'd swarm and kill the SB user if I tried it. Trample is a level 15 skill, and thus I wouldn't expect to get much mileage out of it since by then, I'm closing in on chapter 27. It doesn't help that Malig Knight is a hybrid class, which runs into the problem of most units not being able to do well with both of its weapon types.

 

[DragonFlames]

9 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

In general, I very very seldom see a large enough group that Savage Blow would do anything of note, for one, and second, if I do see such a group, it's probably one that'd swarm and kill the SB user if I tried it. Trample is a level 15 skill, and thus I wouldn't expect to get much mileage out of it since by then, I'm closing in on chapter 27. It doesn't help that Malig Knight is a hybrid class, which runs into the problem of most units not being able to do well with both of its weapon types.

 

Speaking of which, are there any units that can use both weapon types of hybrid classes well?
Leo is trash with Swords.
Camilla isn't really able to use Tomes well.
Promoting Rinkah to Oni Chieftain is a bad idea since her Magic is pretty much non-existent.
Same goes for Oboro or anyone that can go Basara, really. Oboro and most Shiros won't be able to use Tomes or Scrolls, while all the natural Diviners will never get a hold of a Lance.

The only people I can imagine being decent in hybrid classes are Odin as a Dark Knight if you get good level ups on him, as well as Corrin and Kana as Nohr Nobles, though starting at E with Tomes sucks.
And even then, one damage type will always be stronger than the other, so you'll mostly use the stronger one anyway. And sure, there are magical variations for the physical weapons, but isn't the point of a hybrid class to use both physical and magic instead of just one or the other?
Why do Hybrid classes exist again?

Edited October 9, 2017 by DragonFlames

[Shadow Mir]

33 minutes ago, DragonFlames said:

Speaking of which, are there any units that can use both weapon types of hybrid classes well?
Leo is trash with Swords.
Camilla isn't really able to use Tomes well.
Promoting Rinkah to Oni Chieftain is a bad idea since her Magic is pretty much non-existent.
Same goes for Oboro or anyone that can go Basara, really. Oboro and most Shiros won't be able to use Tomes or Scrolls, while all the natural Diviners will never get a hold of a Lance.

The only people I can imagine being decent in hybrid classes are Odin as a Dark Knight if you get good level ups on him, as well as Corrin and Kana as Nohr Nobles, though starting at E with Tomes sucks.
And even then, one damage type will always be stronger than the other, so you'll mostly use the stronger one anyway. And sure, there are magical variations for the physical weapons, but isn't the point of a hybrid class to use both physical and magic instead of just one or the other?
Why do Hybrid classes exist again?

Aside from Corrin and Kana, the only units that come to mind are Sakura, Hayato, Saizo and some variants of Asugi and Nina. Also, I'd say melee + staff classes aren't in that bad a position.

Edited October 9, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[joshcja]

2 hours ago, DragonFlames said:

Speaking of which, are there any units that can use both weapon types of hybrid classes well?
Leo is trash with Swords.
Camilla isn't really able to use Tomes well.
Promoting Rinkah to Oni Chieftain is a bad idea since her Magic is pretty much non-existent.
Same goes for Oboro or anyone that can go Basara, really. Oboro and most Shiros won't be able to use Tomes or Scrolls, while all the natural Diviners will never get a hold of a Lance.

The only people I can imagine being decent in hybrid classes are Odin as a Dark Knight if you get good level ups on him, as well as Corrin and Kana as Nohr Nobles, though starting at E with Tomes sucks.
And even then, one damage type will always be stronger than the other, so you'll mostly use the stronger one anyway. And sure, there are magical variations for the physical weapons, but isn't the point of a hybrid class to use both physical and magic instead of just one or the other?
Why do Hybrid classes exist again?

Jakob and Dwyer both have respectable str+mag and come with early 15's for huge damage stack early (faire/trample+defender+Eroom+filler+filler).

Hybrids are used for mobility+bulk on the magic side and stronger lightning weapon on the phys side. Also skills, wyvern/dm tree's are sick.

Edited October 9, 2017 by joshcja

[DragonFlames]

2 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Aside from Corrin and Kana, the only units that come to mind are Sakura, Hayato, Saizo and some variants of Asugi and Nina. Also, I'd say melee + staff classes aren't in that bad a position.

 

33 minutes ago, joshcja said:

Jakob and Dwyer both have respectable str+mag and come with early 15's for huge damage stack early (faire/trample+defender+Eroom+filler+filler).

Hybrids are used for mobility+bulk on the magic side and stronger lightning weapon on the phys side. Also skills, wyvern/dm tree's are sick.

Good points. True, I sort of forgot about Asugi, Nina, Jakob and Dwyer.
Melee + staff is quite solid, I agree. Mitama, Sakura and Azama are among my favourite units on the Hoshido side for a reason, after all.
And it's also true that they get some good skills. Trample, Lifetaker and Rend Heaven come to mind.

... Okay, I'll take back my question. Hybrids do have some uses. I just looked at the wrong units, is all. My bad!

[Shadow Mir]

2 hours ago, DragonFlames said:

 

Good points. True, I sort of forgot about Asugi, Nina, Jakob and Dwyer.
Melee + staff is quite solid, I agree. Mitama, Sakura and Azama are among my favourite units on the Hoshido side for a reason, after all.
And it's also true that they get some good skills. Trample, Lifetaker and Rend Heaven come to mind.

... Okay, I'll take back my question. Hybrids do have some uses. I just looked at the wrong units, is all. My bad!

WRT the skills hybrid classes have to offer, personally, I'm not sold - while there are some good ones, most of them are just not that good (Rend Heaven and Lifetaker come to mind on that count).

Edited October 9, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia